Encounters: The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed!/Encounters - The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed (1995).iso/altalien/alt02.txt

Internet Message Format | 1995-10-20 | 1MB

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From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Thank you to Don Allen for the Tesla info
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Sep 91 15:44:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
>
>Faraday knew about the possibilities in 1831 (I've seen a copy of his diagram)
>when he drew a picture of a donut shaped magnet with a wire in the middle and
>a wire at the top.  When spinning, it creates an output which is greater in
>energy than the amount of energy that it takes to spin the magnet.  They don`t
>teach us about this in physics at the universities because the *scientists*
>can't explain it.

All the times I've read something like that, it didn't occur to me until
now that it must be what Carlos Allende was talking about when he wrote,
"Had Farraday concerned himself about the mag. field surrounding an
Electric Current, We today Would NOT exist _or_if_ We did exist, our
present Geo-political situation would not have the very time-bombish,
ticking off towards Destruction, atmosphere that Now exists."  (His
spelling and grammar, not mine!)

>Keep in mind, Tesla said he received a lot of his ideas from beings that
>he was in telepathic communication with from the planet Venus (non-
>physical beings).

I hadn't heard that.  Keep in mind that he was under a lot of stress, and
was eccentric to begin with, not to mention all the radio waves he exposed
himself to.  Maybe he wasn't in his right mind all the time.

>According to people at Los Alamos, in 1943, the U. S. Government had a free
>energy device the size of a locomotive.  The secret government (was there a
>secret government in '43?) had it, and the plans for it, destroyed.

Well, some versions of the story place the first alien contact in 1943
rather than 1947.  Dimensional transport, you know...

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From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: September 18th 'Unsolved Mysteries'
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Sep 91 03:30:43 GMT
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 8

The Bentwaters/Rendlesham case will be featured on the season premier of
NBC's "Unsolved Mysteries" next Wednesday, September 18th.

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From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: circles again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Sep 91 03:36:20 GMT
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 20

There was an AP article today about a man in North Carolina who says that
while he believes the British circles with all the fancy designs are a
hoax, he has some plain circles that he thinks were really caused by wind
or something.  A terribly boring and obvious article, except for a couple
of odd paragraphs at the end:

    In North Dakota, Sharon Wagner says a series of mysterious circles
    that showed up in a hay field on her family's farm north of Bismarck
    three years ago are still plainly visible.

    "We don't have any real explanation for it one way or another,"
    she said.

(Quoted without permission for research purposes only.)

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From: [e-mail] (Ed Sanborn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Circle Hoaxers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Sep 91 15:11:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News)
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    Seems to me, a pretty good test of there authenticity would be to keep
watch on them for several nights and if any good circles appear then you
know it wasn't them.  Of course there could be others involved in there
little game but at least you could nail it down to not requiring them
single handedly.

    Just my two cents worth.

    -Ed

--
Edward A. Sanborn - System Manager   [e-mail]
Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
2 Lowell Research Center
Lowell, Ma. 01852                    [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (The Dreamer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Dreams
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Sep 91 17:41:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Geof Rey Evans) says:
>
>'cause I had the sensation of being awake at the time. What was strange
>was a strong sense of fear which is quite unlike myself who has always
>maintained a "oh wow, this should be good" type attitude to these
> ...
>be coming from inside my head rather than my ears. The feeling that they
>had come for me and that they were alien was unbelievably strong and
>seemingly without doubt on my part, though quite ah, intuitive. I found
>it very scary (this surprised me a lot !) and had to wake myself up as
>the fear (and the feeling) grew quite strong. I had a cigarette and
>calmed down.....and the feeling they were "there" stayed with me for
>5-10 mins, and then *faded* away and did not return and i went back to
>sleep. Anyone care to comment. I am well aquainted with the paranormal
>but have never experienced anything like this. I had hair up on end
>absolutely ALL over my body. Quite unreal.

     The only thing that happened to me that was like this happened when I
was about 14 or so.  A friend and I were climbing a hill just to get to
the top.  At the VERY top of the hill was an old gnarled tree sitting there
all alone with no other trees around it.  As I got closer, this overwhelming
sense of fear began and increased the closer I got to the tree.  I thought
I was just being wierd, so I looked over at my friend.  He looked VERY
pale and said "Let's get out of here."  I agreed and we practically ran
down the side of the hill.  I still remember the feeling and I can't say
that I was ever that afraid of anything in my life.
     Personally, if you believe in ESP, I would say that both experiences
were our minds tapping into something dark or forbidden.  You could just
dismiss it as being irrational or childish, but I don't think I'll ever
go on top of that hill again.  Life's wierd, isn't it?

     Love and Peace and Wierdness,
           -The Dreamer-
_________________________________________________________________________
 "Changing the laws of physics is a hobby of mine."
 "YOU'RE NOT AS REAL AS YOU THINK"
 "I dream the dream immortal"
 "Pierre, pass the maple syrup."
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From: [e-mail] (Jack Sinclair)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Circle Hoaxers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Sep 91 18:20:14 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed Sanborn) writes:
>
>    Seems to me, a pretty good test of there authenticity would be to keep
>watch on them for several nights and if any good circles appear then you
>know it wasn't them.  Of course there could be others involved in there
>little game but at least you could nail it down to not requiring them
>single handedly.
>
>    Just my two cents worth.
>
>    -Ed

My roommate mentioned to me last night that the fellows were on a national
radio program up here in Canada.  Reportedly, the vast number of circles
were explained by them as this: one (or both) of the men are artists, and
a few years back, they were at a party, mostly artist types... anyways,
a few beers, and a few laughs later, they shared their secret with some
of those at the party.  They postulated that others implemented their
ideas on an independent basis, hence all the world-wide circle sightings.
Plausible?  It's second hand info to me.

Jack.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: WHOOSH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Sep 91 18:37:25 GMT
Organization: Give me a telephone, and I'll show you a belchbox.
Lines: 1
X-Subliminal-Message: You will whoosh! You WILL whoosh!

WHOOSH!!!! Spread the word!!!....
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From: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Sep 91 11:28:13 GMT
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Reply-To: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB
Lines: 12



David Icke recons JC was born in SEPT (constellation of VIRGO)
which is where the virgin birth myth comes from.


Or did a couple of time travellers give MARY some AI?
--
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From: [e-mail] (Mark Francis Stramaglia)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Research in space alien impact methods.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Sep 91 21:24:55 GMT
Organization: Senior, Art, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 30

CC:samuel ward




Our way of doing a space alien documentary-film research was making this
a videofilm on the teachers concerning the basic space alien research.
We choosed how to film the class, the class choosed us for ways we
prepared of doing the research they required, etc.

 The general topic is the Natural Engineering and Computer Sciences in
Space Alien  Science. Based on space alien experience and knowledge,
like a good electromagnetic theory, the history of the development of a
space alien documentary-film and/or its modern applications (radar
etc...), will examine the role of computers and privacy. This survey
will include the use and impact of space alien research computers on
warfare, warfare education, medical warfare care, and computer warfare
technology. We will intelligently deal with the possible consequences of
the impact of warfare benefits of the computer age concerning the
perceived space alien affect (control?) of our everyday life.

We did research in how the pupils delt with their learning. We, interested in
how the freedom to integrate, with responsibility of learning how to
learn themselves, explored questions and made work in order to do the
space alien research they required.

I would reference about what trade-offs we as a society are prepared to
discuss
about how this space alien technology benefits from experience and
knowledge of contemporary society.
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From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Dreams
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Sep 91 15:38:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Geof Rey Evans) writes:
>
> Last night I had a dream which was very disorientating...
...
> but have never experienced anything like this. I had hair up on end
> absolutely ALL over my body. Quite unreal.
>                                           ciao, Geof.

Questions: could you move while you were having the dream? did you hear a
           harsh buzzing noise? did experience any other tactile/visual/
           audible hallucinations? did you have trouble waking yourself?

Craig

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From: [e-mail] (Heikki Paananen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Circle Hoaxers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Sep 91 10:32:35 GMT
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In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 12 Sep 91 15:11:02 GMT


All those crop circle incidents sounds mysterious to me and indeed
quessing their appearance, aliens are still on the list. But however,
I think that those Mandlebrot figures found are obvious hoaxes. No
alien is so naivi! Are they trying to tell us that "Chaos theory is
the key to the universe, stick on it my friend..." I am not saying
that the meaning of those circles is clear to me, but Mandlebrot....
come on! My quess is that some college students did run one of those
PD Mandlebrot programs and were facinated of the beauty of the
figures. Then they just thought that "lets make people think that these
shapes are the interface to alien science, the first real link between
us." However, the method of doing those circles etc. is a little bit foggy...
Well, maybe weve gotta set up a set of watchtowers around to find out
the truth, but Id say that even a college student is wise enough to
avoid guarded areas:-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Heikki Paananen                           [e-mail]
The University of Oulu                     [e-mail]
Department of electrical engineering    [e-mail]
Finland
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Two hudred Francs for sanctuary and she led me by the hand
to a room of dancing shadows, where all the heartache disappears
and from glowing tongues of candles I heard her whisper in my ear
"J `ntend ton coeur"                                      (Fish)
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From: [e-mail] (Sara Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strange Dreams..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Sep 91 13:25:20 GMT
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[e-mail] writes:

> I was wondering if anybody had the same recurring dream that I've had-
>
>         It's almost as if I'm listening in on a conversation, but as soon as
>    try to say something, whoever's on the other end suddenly becomes very qui
>    almost as if I wasn't supposed to be able to hear the conversation.  The
>    weird part about this is that there are images which accompany the voices
>    and the voices are in bursts rather than any vocalized speech.

could you please say more in description what the voices sound like. are the
bursts high pitched? do you have any visual associations with this dream?

--
Sara Gordon
Northern Star 8 line BBS
219-289-0287/317-251-7391
internet: [e-mail]
uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara
    -= newsfeeds available, contact [e-mail] =-
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From: [e-mail] (The Xanadian)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Semjase and the Pleiadeans
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Sep 91 19:15:34 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Frank
Stuart Brown) says:
>
>
>Quel un croc du merde!
>

..............mmmoooOOOOOOOoo!!    pvfthffhthvfft!
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From: [e-mail] (Donald Yett)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Sep 91 21:57:39 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber) writes:
>
>Except that we don't know that there are other planets, but the nine in
>our own star system.  A ring has been dectected around one star some
>years ago, and recently what may be a rather large gas giant planet (or
>a small cool starlike object) was detected.  This is the only evidence
>we have so far that planets may even form around other stars.

(Somebody please correct me if I am wrong)  There has been at least one
announcement every year since approximately 1984 when the one in Pictoris was
found..  I think that there have been only two years in this period where one
wasn't (supposedly) discovered.

>It would seem unlikely that planets are unique here, but saying
>outright that there are a very large numbers of planets is not
>correct.  It would be better to take that fraction of stars that exist
>that are G class, then that fraction which are solitary (most stars are
>binaries or in close clusters), then that fraction which have have
>enough matter around them to form planets.  We don't have the last
>number at all, merely wide ranging guesses.  Other numbers such as how
>many of these planetary systems have Earth-like planets are even more
>shakey.

All stars can potentially (My ESP tells me you will use that word to emphasize
your reply to this :>) have planets.  Some of course are more likely tha
others..  I wouldn't expect too many around blue-giants..  Ok, using the stats
that everybody has access to, we can only assume a certain number of habitable
planets..  We have a G class star, we have nine planets, only one supports life
currently, and one other MAY have at one time been able to support life (Mars).
If the planet can support life, it may or may not actually have it (toss a
coin..) Right here, we have a one in nine chance of finding a habitable planet
in a similar system.  (I KNOW you stat-types are going to pick this apart,
please give me a break!)..  Given a mind-bogglingly large number of similar
stars, say a 1 in 2 chance of having planets, a 1 in 9 chance of a habitable
planet, and a 1 in 2 chance of life on that planet, and say a 1 in 1Meg chance
of intelligent life, you still have a mind-bogglingly large number of similar
systems with intelligent life, all laughing their heads (or whatever) off at
your ignorance!  Okay, call me an ass, call me psuedo-scientific, call me
whatever comes to your mind..  I'm just saying it the way I see it..

I also believe Dougals Adams' little proof that we don't even exist!  Ref :
"Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"  Statistically speaking, that is...


--
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
| [e-mail]  | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed,
|   Just my opinions!     | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Donald Yett)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Circle Hoaxers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Sep 91 22:22:07 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed Sanborn) writes:
>
>    Seems to me, a pretty good test of there authenticity would be to keep
>watch on them for several nights and if any good circles appear then you
>know it wasn't them.  Of course there could be others involved in there
>little game but at least you could nail it down to not requiring them
>single handedly.
>

C'mon dude...  Every half-crazed person out there is going to give it a try
now that they know how to do it...  Serial killings go up when there is press
coverage, crime goes up when there is press coverage, stupid kids write more
and more computer virii when there is press coverage, One single national
press release can create hundreds of imitators...  I believe there are various
causes for crop ccircles, and do not rule out anything, but how can any serious
researcher take the field seriously with hundreds of possible imitators out
there now.

Topeka Kansas : "Hey, joe 'hic' pass me another beer"
                "Hey man, how about raising a bit of hell tonight?"
                "Yea, sounds good..  Hey, I have an idea!"
                "W-What ?"
                "Ya know that corn field off the highway out there?"
                "Yeah."
                "Let's make like green little martians!"
                "Huh?!  No more beer for you!"
                "Nah dude, like I'm serious!  Let's make some crop-circles!"
                "Radical!  Let's do it!"

I leave the rest for your imagination...

--
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
| [e-mail]  | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed,
|   Just my opinions!     | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
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From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Circle Hoaxers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Sep 91 23:11:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Donald Yett) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed Sanborn) writes:
>>
>>    Seems to me, a pretty good test of there authenticity would be to keep
>>watch on them for several nights and if any good circles appear then you
>>know it wasn't them.  Of course there could be others involved in there
>>little game but at least you could nail it down to not requiring them
>>single handedly.
>>
>  -stuff deleted...
>

I am new to this group, but have a simple question.  If the UFO's try so hard
not to be seen (i.e. I heard that they (researchers) were staking out a field
and circles appeared the next morning in the field behind them), why do they
leave imprints?  Further more, why is it always in a wheat/corn field, why
not a potato field or some other type of field (i.e. meadow).  Also one
would think that the aliens would be able to gather all of the information
they needed concerning corn/wheat in one visit, why on earth would they
touch down so many times in the same area & type of field?

I don't mean to take a stance on this issue, but these just seem to obvious
to overlook.

Joe
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From: [e-mail] (Andrew Ford)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Dave and Doug's crop circle hoax
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Sep 91 20:17:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Did ever occur to _any_ of you skeptics that D&D claimed to
have put up a hoax because they just can't accept any other
explanation? NOT that I believe, or ever did believe, that
the circles were evidence of anything.

Its just that a lot of you have been blasting "psi believers"
because "we believe what we want to believe."
I am just wondering if any skeptics have given any thought
to the possibility that the hoax is a hoax?

Set Sarcasm EXTREME:
Now why would anyone want to get famous as the guys who fooled
the world?!?!?!?

--
Without either the 1st or 2nd amendment, we would have no liberty: the 1st
allows us to find out whats happening, the 2nd allows us to do something about
it!  The 2nd will be taken away first, followed by the 1st and then the rest of
our freedoms.      -   Andrew Ford    INTERNET: gtephx![e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Donald Yett)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Invitation for evidence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Sep 91 01:51:12 GMT
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Is the media prejudiced?  C'mon guys, If the money for miracles guys, the
real-estate riches guys, the government auction guys, the astrologers, and
the hot air chicks can buy air time, so can organized UFO research..

My wish-list : a syndicated special, pref at least 2 hours long.

Enough SOLID evidence to make a skeptic say "UFOs are around!"

How about that guy with all the CLEAR and (supposedly) irrefutable photo-
graphic evidence showing his stuff.

A brief history on hoaxes.

A history of classic incidents, Roswell, etc...  WITH DOCUMENTATION, there
has been talk about government papers being de-classified.

NO BULLSHIT, nothing like the bogus movies/shows of the past, Prove they are
here NOW, nowbody wants to hear about the Nasca lines again, how aliens built
the pyramids, etc...

If solid evidence is presented, and you are able to prove it, then you will
have your hands full with people coming out of the closets with sightings.
If you do not describe any aliens at all within the show(s), these people
coming outta the closet will either confirm or refute the stories about
Grays, if you describe a blue, fat, tall alien, people will start seeing them.
I believe that some of the reports may be true, but most ARE crackpots and
loonies, better yet, let this work for you, describe an outlandish alien and
you can seperate the crackpots this way after the show is over and they start
crawling outta the woodwork reporting aliens.

If the evidence cannot be presented in one show, make a mini-series out of it.

First, will the stations run it?  Yes, if they run Robert Tilton, if they
run "The Elvis Files" (a show some weeks ago that tried unsuccessfully to
prove Elvis is alive), then they will run this..

Second, will the advertisers pay?  Have you seen the ratings of "The Elvis
Files"?

Third, will the viewers believe?  That depends on the evidence.  Make it good
because the people who count will be hard to convince.

I would like to see this from professionals in the field, not some
pseudo-scientific presentation.  Sources MUST be credible.  Radar traces
not FAA certified (and advertized as such) can be created by any hardware
hacker in his/her garage using industrial/government surplus sources.

I know someone who brought this idea up one night when reading this newsgroup.
He would be willing to be an organizer for such a film, financial backing
must come from within the UFO research community.  If you expect another
"Chariots of the Gods", then go elsewhere.  We are interested in REAL evidence.

Any takers?

Please note this is cross-posted to sci.skeptic

--
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
| [e-mail]  | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed,
|   Just my opinions!     | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: ok
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Sep 91 00:20:29 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2018 sci.skeptic:15018

This is John Winston posting on Don Showen s account.

     I just got back from the  UFO Conference  in Phoenix, Arizona  and
recorded about seven and one half hours of information.   One person in
particular  that  I got on tape is Larry Warren who is an ex-serviceman who
was working at a NATO base in  England a few years back.   He personally
examined a  UFO  and the encounter with it s occupants.   This incident will
be seen  on next Wednesdays  episode of Unsolved Mysteries at 8 PM.  I ll
leave you with this saying; It s not over till the fat lady sings. Standard
Disclaimer. John.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!cs.umn.edu!lynx!cie.uoregon.edu!christ
From: [e-mail] (Christian G. Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invitation for evidence
Summary: A Blatant waste of Bandwidth.  I should be spanked.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Sep 91 04:53:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Betsy's Cloaca BBS
Lines: 26


  I'd love to see something like that on tv, but I can't imagine it anytime
in the near future.  The impression I have of the television industry when
it comes to UFO's can be summed up if you remember a special that Mike Farrel
(sp? Used to be B.J. Honeycutt on M*A*S*H tv series) did a year or three ago.
It was about two hours long and purported to "reveal new and startling evidence
about aliens".  Well, what it turned out to be was just another "and they have
big heads, big eyes, and long fingers.  And they're short, too..." crap mill.
  Not only that, but they went into detail as to the inner anatomical workings
of the aliens and their home planet.  A number of things did not jive.  For
instance: the aliens had supposedly evolved on a hot planet near their sun,
and as they made explorations to our planet (and presumably others), they used
it as thier home base.  Well, what the hell is an alien with huge eyes and pale
skin doing on a planet close to a sun (scorched and blinded, perhaps)?
  They had milked it for all the publicity it was worth, and I had been looking
foreward to it for weeks.  They're just too much greediness to get any REAL
truth or REAL research done for a t.v. special.

Distraught and going to therapy over it,
-chris

--
                         WAR IS PEACE
                      FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
                    IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!mips!apple!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera
From: [e-mail] (Eric Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Owl memory
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Sep 91 06:30:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
Lines: 58
Originator: eherrera@zinfandel

I grew up in Santa Monica, a suburb of Los Angeles.  As teen-agers, my
friends and I liked to drive up canyon roads into the SM mountains to
admire the great vistas of the LA basin.  Usually I was the one to
invite a friend (occasionally a few) to accompany me to these remote
spots on weekend nights to gaze at the many city lights below and at
the many stars above.  At those times my thoughts would turn to the
awesome vastness of the universe and its mysteries.  I also liked to
pass the time by counting high-flying airliners and satellites.

One such night stands out in my memory.  My friend Bill and I drove and
hiked to a favorite spot to enjoy the view and a six-pack.  We called
it "the Big Rock" and it was just that:  a wide, nearly flat rock which
was hidden from the lonely canyon road by chaparral, and ended in an
abrupt drop-off of several hundred feet.  The rock was very near the
summit of the SM mountains.  It was late summer; August or September,
about 10 years ago.

The night was very dark -- a new moon -- and the only illumination up
there was from the stars.  But my oddest memory of that night is of
being menaced by huge owls which repeatedly swooped close to the tops
of our heads as we sat on the edge of the rock.  I never really saw
the owls clearly; only as wide-winged blacknesses which blocked out
eight-foot wide patches of stars as they circled and dove at us.
We knew they were owls because of the distinctive cries we heard
from all around.  The owls rather frightened us, and we left quickly
due to their harassment.  I remember rationalizing the experience
by saying that we had stumbled onto their nesting area and that they
were just jealously protecting it.  I seem to recall that there were
between four and eight owls.

I do not know whether owls are native to the hills of Southern
California.  I don't know whether they nest in or otherwise prefer
rocky outcroppings.  I don't know if owls live in groups.  I don't
know if they grow to eight-foot wing spans.  I DO know that I had
never seen owls there before, and I never did again.  I spent many
nights on that rock.

Since those days I have had several experiences like the following:
I wake up suddenly in the middle of the night.  I am conscious, but
I can't move.  I feel an unusual tingling sensation all over my body
and it makes me want to sleep immediately.  The fear of being unable
to move makes me fight the urge to sleep, and I become fully awake.
Everything is quiet and in order.  I can move my limbs.  Eventually
I calm myself and am able to sleep (without the tingling sensation).

So.  I don't remember ever having met a "grey."  I really don't think
I have.  I have, however read about the owl-related "masking memory"
theory.  I don't know how much credence to give it.  I like to think
of myself as an open-minded skeptic.  I would appreciate someone
e-mailing to me their impressions and opinions about this.  Am I
overly imaginative?  Am I paranoid?  Or do I have something to be
concerned about?  Is it just that I read this news group too much?
I did have a UFO sighting once, but it was very unspectacular, and I
really don't think it's related to this.

Please let me know what you think.  Thank you.

Eric...  [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!orstcs!jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU!woodc
From: [e-mail] (Major Havok)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invitation for evidence
Message-ID: <1991Sep14.114455.29107@[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Sep 91 11:44:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: @[e-mail]
Organization: Oregon State University, CS Dept.
Lines: 20
Nntp-Posting-Host: jacobs.cs.orst.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Christian G. Smith) writes:
>
>  I'd love to see something like that on tv, but I can't imagine it anytime
>in the near future.  The impression I have of the television industry when
>it comes to UFO's can be summed up if you remember a special that Mike Farrel
>(sp? Used to be B.J. Honeycutt on M*A*S*H tv series) did a year or three ago.
>It was about two hours long and purported to "reveal new and startling evidence
>about aliens".  Well, what it turned out to be was just another "and they have
>big heads, big eyes, and long fingers.  And they're short, too..." crap mill.

  I have about half or three quarters of that show recorded on video tape.
It was closer to three years ago. I was also looking forward to it for some
time, but was disappointed. You know they're not sincere when they flash a
bunch of "900" numbers on the screen... and that background music was the
worst!
--
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Chris Wood                |  "If you can't convince them, confuse them." |
| [e-mail]  |                                   -unknown   |
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!slxsys!ibmpcug!demon!news
From: [e-mail] (Codesmiths)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 19
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Sep 91 12:44:25 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (C-News Owner)
Reply-To: Codesmiths <[e-mail]>
Organization: Gated to News by demon.co.uk
Lines: 30

In-Reply-To:  [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)

> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Bryan Woodworth)
 writes...
> >[Christian bullshit about Armageddon '97]
>
>         No this is not quite correct:
>
>         In  1997  on August 28th a Super  computer  called   Skynet  will
>         become self aware.  [Explanation of the plot of Arnie's
>         film, "Terminator"]


Hmmm, another Arnie film taking its source material from modern
UFOlogy myths. Ever seen "Total Recall", where Arnie removes a small
round implant from up his nose ? "Twins", with Danny DeVito (who is
probably a Grey) ?

Sounds like Arnie's favourite scriptwriters all read Usenet. Whats
next ? Arnie plays a physicist at SLAC who builds pyramids in his
spare time ?  :-)

Andy Dingley    [e-mail]    [phone]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Sep 91 06:19:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 28

[e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown) writes:

>
>
> David Icke recons JC was born in SEPT (constellation of VIRGO)
> which is where the virgin birth myth comes from.
>
>
> Or did a couple of time travellers give MARY some AI?
> --
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Frank Stuart-Brown, Dept 31700, Customer Services,
> <[e-mail]>  ||  !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb
> Tel [phone]  ||  [phone]

        The above message was given a title regarding the possible End of the
World in 1997.

        I was wondering, have any people on this newsgrouop seen any claims
of the End of the World in print? I'm sort of collecting them for an essay.

        Thanks.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
[e-mail]                     "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!ai-lab!wombat.gnu.ai.mit.edu!donahue
From: [e-mail] (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Sep 91 16:06:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Waldeaux's Toy Factory --- New Location, Better View
Lines: 50
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15036 alt.alien.visitors:2024

[e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber) writes:
> It would seem unlikely that planets are unique here, but saying
> outright that there are a very large numbers of planets is not
> correct.  It would be better to take that fraction of stars that exist
> that are G class, then that fraction which are solitary (most stars are
> binaries or in close clusters), then that fraction which have have
> enough matter around them to form planets.  We don't have the last
> number at all, merely wide ranging guesses.  Other numbers such as how
> many of these planetary systems have Earth-like planets are even more
> shakey.

    Well, I can offer some info on this...

    Current models have a hard time making "single" stars form -
you usually have to end up with either a planetary system or a companion
star (or more likely both with the planets coming out of the smaller
eddies).  That is one of the reasons the whole "Nemesis thing" is a hot
topic.

    It isn't necessary that the star be a single star --- two stars
at sufficient distance wouldn't pose a problem - say a few hundred AUs.

    If you were going to be less stringent about stars - you could
probably extend the list to early K stars as well and late F, but
nothing earlier since they evolve too quickly....

    One thing you also have to include is AGE --- stars only millions of
years old are likely still calming down --- planets probably haven't fully
formed yet.  This is one reason why I can't take much of the Pleidian stuff
seriously.  Life didn't begin on the Earth until well after the Sun was
a billion years old --- in fact the Sun's activity up to that point may
have played a VERY important part in that formation!

    In terms of stats --- all I can say is that there isn't any
reason to believe that our solar system is "weird" for having planets.
Individual stars, though seem to be quite unique when you look at them
under scrutiny (spectroscopically); it is VERY hard for example to find
a star that REALLY looks "just like" the Sun.

    One intriguing thing relating back to Visitor folklore, and
adding in what (little) we do know about the solar neighborhood is that
Zeta 1 and 2 Reticuli seem to be "interesting" in that they are G stars,
appears to be about 6 billion years old (i.e. 20% older than the Sun),
and though a binary are well-separated (400 AU --- the light from one
star seen from the other would be about magnitude -9, 100x brighter
than Venus, but less than the Full Moon --- you would cast a shadow
from it though).   Since that star system has cropped up untold times,
I find it "neat" though still possibly coincidental.

BBC
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!slxsys!ibmpcug!demon!news
From: [e-mail] (Codesmiths)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Teachings by an alien visi
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Sep 91 18:15:27 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (C-News Owner)
Reply-To: Codesmiths <[e-mail]>
Organization: Gated to News by demon.co.uk
Lines: 22

In-Reply-To:  [e-mail]

> We will now examine the different civilisations of the universe, and
> in particular the higher evolved inhabitants.
>
> Class 1 planets:
> This inhabitants of these planetary systems are to most advanced in
> this universe.
>
> Maybe what would interest you most, are the humanoid inhabitants.
> Although they are considered lower class, they are still completely
> free persons.

So theres still a need for Marxist dialectic out in the Pleiades
then ?  :-)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invitation for evidence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Sep 91 20:00:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 29

[e-mail] (Donald Yett) writes:
        [Lengthy proposal for solid TV show on UFOs.]

        I'm not going to flame any of your suggestions, but there are several
points that should be addressed.

        My first question is whether to include skeptical analyses of the
claims that would be presented in this TV special. For example, Philip Klass
uncovered very persuasive evidence that the MJ-12 papers were hoaxed, and
published his findings in the Skeptical Inquirer. I don't read a LOT of
pro-UFO material-- I do keep up, though-- but I didn't see much discussion of
Klass's findings beyond the 'Klass says this, but here's an argument against
what Klass says, even though we won't say what Klass says' variety. (Lately,
Jerome Clark has revised his story. He once wrote, in the "Fringes of
Reason," that the MJ-12 papers have withstood scrutiny even after some
"frantic" efforts by Klass. Recently, Clark wrote that the papers are
probably a forgery, again without citing Klass's findings.)

        And, considering that many UFO believesr think that the debunkings of
some UFO claims are part of the cover-up, I'd like to see how much of the
skeptical viewpoint would be included on the program.

        I wouldn't mind seeing a balanced, pro-and-con examination myself.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
[e-mail]                     "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Owl memory
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Sep 91 19:42:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB
Lines: 50

[e-mail] (Eric Herrera) scribbles:

[deleted]

> Since those days I have had several experiences like the following:
> I wake up suddenly in the middle of the night.  I am conscious, but
> I can't move.  I feel an unusual tingling sensation all over my body
> and it makes me want to sleep immediately.  The fear of being unable
> to move makes me fight the urge to sleep, and I become fully awake.
> Everything is quiet and in order.  I can move my limbs.  Eventually
> I calm myself and am able to sleep (without the tingling sensation).
>
> Please let me know what you think.  Thank you.
>
> Eric...  [e-mail]


I've had the same experience (exactely like that) two times in the last
year.  The first time it happened I really freaked out, I was conscious
but I couldn't move my body at all.  I thought I was paralyzed, and I
tryed to yell but I couldn't.  It was scary, this may sound weird but I
thought something was going to do something to me.  I eventually pulled
myself out of this state and I was FULLY awake.  It scared me, but I
asked my Mother about this and she said it's perfectly normal (not sure
why!).  Anyways, it happened to me again about 2 months or so later, and
this time I didn't get scared.  I just lay in my bed (eyes open) and said
"Hey, it's happening again, but I'm not worried.".  And that's about it!

Gary

PS: The other night I had a REAL weird dream.  This guy in a grey space
    type suit was taking me down a corridor, and we went through a
    secret door (it looked like a wall), and he lead me into this huge
    room full of huge aquirirums, inside of them were all these strange
    creatures that I've never seen before.  Some were real deformed and
    it looked like this was some kind of lab where strange experiments
    are performed.  This guy turned to me and said "Have you ever dreamt
    about Aliens?" and I answered "YES".. so he took this kind of gun
    to the back of my neck and shot something into me!  I walked into
    another room and there were all these people sitting at a table, and
    I noticed they had things in the back of their necks too!  I started
    to panic and then the dream goes weird... and I escape somehow.

    Isn't that strange?
    BTW, don't nobody start saying I have one of those alien devices in
    me now, I checked my neck and I don't!  Heh.. :)

--- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
E-mail: [e-mail]
system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Dreams..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Sep 91 19:47:16 GMT
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB
Lines: 10



Well, you know when I said it was my friend who was having these dreams?
Errr.. it was actually me, just wanted to think about it for awhile.

Gary

--- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
E-mail: [e-mail]
system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!phad.hsc.usc.edu!dyett
From: [e-mail] (Donald Yett)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invitation for evidence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Sep 91 02:41:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 92
Nntp-Posting-Host: phad.hsc.usc.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) writes:

>        I'm not going to flame any of your suggestions, but there are several
>points that should be addressed.

Thanks, at least you are a skeptic with an open mind.

>        My first question is whether to include skeptical analyses of the
>claims that would be presented in this TV special. For example, Philip Klass
>uncovered very persuasive evidence that the MJ-12 papers were hoaxed, and
>published his findings in the Skeptical Inquirer. I don't read a LOT of
>pro-UFO material-- I do keep up, though-- but I didn't see much discussion of
>Klass's findings beyond the 'Klass says this, but here's an argument against
>what Klass says, even though we won't say what Klass says' variety. (Lately,
>Jerome Clark has revised his story. He once wrote, in the "Fringes of
>Reason," that the MJ-12 papers have withstood scrutiny even after some
>"frantic" efforts by Klass. Recently, Clark wrote that the papers are
>probably a forgery, again without citing Klass's findings.)
>
>        And, considering that many UFO believesr think that the debunkings of
>some UFO claims are part of the cover-up, I'd like to see how much of the
>skeptical viewpoint would be included on the program.
>
>        I wouldn't mind seeing a balanced, pro-and-con examination myself.

This is exactly the kind of stuff that would fit the idea.  But any debunking
should be done prior to the actual filming, etc..  The whole point here is to
do more than just say "maybe they exist", it's to say either "yes, they exist",
"no, it's a load of crap", or "there is not enough evidence to say one or the
other"..  This does not mean that I am interested in hearing from every loony
on the street, I'm a tough judge of the facts myself.

More ideas on the subject :

How about if government officials can be convinced to appear (of course with
total anonymity (faces obscured, voices post-processed))..  Recently there was
a (possibly bogus) interview transcript with a retired general, and an active
active-duty col., If the article was for real, the col. may be interested in
showing up to such a filming..  After reading that one a few times, the gen
would have obviously have been under survaillence if what had been said was
in fact true, therefore it would be well known to those people who the col was
that did the interview.  Now if that case was true, the col should be really
sweating it..  Maybe a little exposure can add a bit of an insurance policy.

Any others out there who may have such data, objects, film, ships, beings,
etc..  are invited to come forward, if the whole nation knows who you are,
then how can anybody have you hit.. This assumes of course that there is some
government involvement.  Any government documents would of course have to be
certified copies or originals, and be verifiable as such..  Government docs
would also have to be as free as possible from ommissions and censorship..
If there is government involvement in any sort of cover-up (again assuming
they exist, and that the government is involved) due to the length of such
possible involvement, there would obviously be many people with access to
some of this info..

Last of all, if one of these guys can land in my back yard, and do an
interview it would really make things a lot easier!  If they are reading
this, they know who I am and where I am..

One word, what we are looking for is physical evidence, metaphysical will
be looked at but not used.  Remember SOLID pre-tested evidence!

Going to the last suggestion above, if a multi-part show could be done, then
we can have skeptics pick apart other stuff..

Possible scenario :

Show 1 : Existing evidence for
Show 2 : Existing evidence against
Show 3 : Solid evidence (Whichever way it goes)

This would be done with an open mind, and no pre-concieved conclusions.
Everybody would have the chance to PROVE their point.  If you have evidence,
I WANT TO HEAR IT.  EITHER WAY.

If I can get enough participation in this sort of project, we can take it
all the way..  The conclusions will be revealed at the end of the project
to all funding parties.  We will not play politics, everybody must be happy
with the fact that it would be an objective study, and that one or more parties
may not be satisfied with the conclusions on political terms because they can't
shoot it down.  The funding must come from within thhe UFO research community,
the anti-UFO research community, and will help each according to the percentage
of their contribution if profits are made.  This discussion will be taken to
EMAIL if there is anybody interested.



--
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
| [e-mail]  | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed,
|   Just my opinions!     | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Prophesy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Sep 91 14:47:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 14


 > from time to time.  The special thing about the one due in 1992 is that
 > it's the first one detected before it got anywhere near us.  Normally we
 > only see them as they're going by or after they've passed.

Can you tell me more about this one in 1992?  Is that the same one that had a
near-miss with us last year?

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!ebraeden
From: [e-mail] (Eric W Braeden)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Specific Pyramid Power book wanted
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Sep 91 01:12:18 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 14
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2031 alt.paranormal:3074
Originator: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu


     I'm a collector of pyramid power books and am having
trouble finding a particular one. The author was G. Patrick
Flanagan and the name of the book was Beyond Pyramid Power.
It was published by De Vross in Santa Monica, California some
time between 1973 and 1975. As far as I know, it only came out
in paperback and I think the cover was red or orange stripes.
This was a follow-up to that author's original book, Pyramid
Power. If one of you fine people out there has a copy of
Beyond Pyramid Power in reasonably good shape and is willing
to sell it, e-mail me, I'll pay any *reasonable* amount. Also,
does anyone know whatever happened to Flanagan?

[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Hologram Grey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Sep 91 02:06:50 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 6

I was in Ithaca this weekend and I went to the hologram store 3D Light.  There
was a hologram of a woman which tore its face off to reveal a Grey underneath
it as you walked by it.  They're HERE!  They've even got 'em on film!  IN
3-D no less...  Golly...

Scott
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!udel!haven.umd.edu!uvaarpa!cv3.cv.nrao.edu!cv3.cv.nrao.edu!bgarwood
From: [e-mail] (Bob Garwood )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Dave and Doug's crop circle hoax
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Sep 91 03:37:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory
Lines: 68
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2033 alt.paranormal:3075 sci.skeptic:15088
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 11 Sep 91 20: 17:17 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Andrew Ford) writes:


   Did ever occur to _any_ of you skeptics that D&D claimed to
   have put up a hoax because they just can't accept any other
   explanation? NOT that I believe, or ever did believe, that
   the circles were evidence of anything.

   Its just that a lot of you have been blasting "psi believers"
   because "we believe what we want to believe."
   I am just wondering if any skeptics have given any thought
   to the possibility that the hoax is a hoax?

----

Actually, it was the first thing that occured to me before I read
the article.  However:

(1) They were observed making one crop "circle" (although, like most of
     these features in the crops, it wasn't a simple circle - is there a
     better word?).
(2) Production of this circle was sufficiently fast to allow for it
     to have been easily produced in one evening by a very small number
     of people (2).
(3) This circle clearly fooled someone known as a leading expert on
     the circles.

There are several explanations for the formation of these features:
(1) hoax, i.e. humans did it
(2) natural/meteorological - i.e. humans didn't do it but there's no need
      to go beyond established science to explain them
      (although we will allow that perhaps the natural explanation may turn
       out to be something theoreticians previously thought impossible)
(3) UFO or other explanation - not of this earth or science could
    never explain this one (perhaps this should be 2 sepearate classes,
     UFOS/extraterrestrials that if we only understood as much as they did
     we'ld view it as a natural phenomenon and PSI explanations)

Of these 3 explanations:

   (1) has been shown to be a valid explanation in one case.  This illustrates
       that it is possible to fool the experts.

   (2) I have heard mostly, I believe, anecdotal evidence that some
         weather/winds may produce circular patches in crops.  Clearly,
    a simple meteoroligical explanation can not explain the extremely
    complex patterns observed.  Therefore, for the bulk of these
    patterns, explanation (1) is preffered over explanation (2).
        A more complex explanation is necessesary plus either direct
        observation of a patter forming not via (1) or proof that a pattern
    could not have been formed via (1) [and, given that experts stated
    that the one case of a hoax could not have been a hoax, it will
    be more difficult to prove that other patterns could not be hoaxed].

   (3) In order for this to be taken seriously at all, (1) some UFOS or
    some such weirdness not identified as natural are observed forming
    a pattern, or (2) similar to what I said above, proof that a
    pattern could not have been formed by humans.

Clearly, the hoax hypothesis is by far the leading hypothesis to explain
these crop patterns.  (2) is a distant second, but only for the very simple
patters and (3) is extremely unlikely.

This ranking of explanations may change but it is clearly the current
ranking.

Bob Garwood, National Radio Astronomy Observatory
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!edcastle!aiai!aipna!cam
From: [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Dave and Doug's crop circle hoax
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Sep 91 00:08:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm)
Organization: Dept of AI, Edinburgh University, UK.
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2034 alt.paranormal:3076 sci.skeptic:15093

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Andrew Ford) writes:

>Now why would anyone want to get famous as the guys who fooled
>the world?!?!?!?

They are claiming the 30,000 pound reward for showing how the crop
circles are made.
--
Chris Malcolm    [e-mail]   [phone] x2550
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!apple!news.bbn.com!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!milton!sumax!polari!rwing!eskimo!nanook
From: [e-mail] (Robert Dinse)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Circle Hoaxers
Summary: Belief Systems
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Sep 91 02:24:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: ESKIMO NORTH [phone] SEATTLE WA.
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jack Sinclair) writes:

> My roommate mentioned to me last night that the fellows were on a national
> radio program up here in Canada.  Reportedly, the vast number of circles
> were explained by them as this: one (or both) of the men are artists, and
> a few years back, they were at a party, mostly artist types... anyways,
> a few beers, and a few laughs later, they shared their secret with some
> of those at the party.  They postulated that others implemented their
> ideas on an independent basis, hence all the world-wide circle sightings.
> Plausible?  It's second hand info to me.

     If something does not fit in your belief system, you will find a plausible
explanation for it's existance, whether it be two hoaxers that had to much beer
or if that doesn't adequately explain it, a few dozen that attended a party, or
if that still doesn't cut it, a few hundred who were all friends of the folks
that attended the party where the hoaxers secret was shared.

     I don't know who or what created all of the circles.  There is the
possibility that they weren't all created by the same phenomena, some might
be created by people, some by vortexes, some by aliens who enjoy watching
earth people argue on computer nets over the origination of crop circles.

     I've got to figure, if it >IS< aliens, then sooner or later things will
come to a head and it will be obvious.  If it's hoaxers, they'll get bored
and it will die out.  In either event, history will play itself out and I am
content to sit and wait rather than trying to rationalize it to death with
zero real information.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Sep 91 08:50:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 105
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15095 alt.paranormal:3077 alt.alien.visitors:2036 talk.religion.newage:6819

>>The Pleiadians are a group of entities from our future being channeled by
>>Barbra Marciniak.  They have been coming through for over three years and
>>are mainly on cassette tapes. A friend of mine went to the trouble of
>>transcribing two evening worth of tapes.  The transcripts present an
>>entirely new concept of god(s) and of humans.  I have found them to be
>>inspiring and uplifting. (Thought provoking:-)) to say the least. For me
>>they have given answers to many, many areas I could not find answers before.
>>I offered to send them email to folks about four months ago and 35 net
>>folks requested them.  So now that we have our new fall crop of net folks
>>I am again making the offer. They consist of six 30k files and a tape list.
>>I highly recommend that people who are religious do not ask for them as they
>>do not speak favorably towards religion. The Pleiadians say they are here
>>to inspire us to the highest degree possible so we will wake up and start
>>creating our own reality by doing this we will change our future and thereby
>>change their reality.

In answer to my post above I received the following questions email that I
thought I would post my answers to.

 >1. What time period in our future are they from?

They say they come from what we would call our future.  They say some are from
1 million years,  some from 500,000 years, some from a few hundred years in
what we would call our future.  Now I interpret that to mean maybe we as
humans do not have a complete perspective on time. I think they could actually
be a aspect of ourselves that is out of time ie. not in time as we think of it
in the 3D reality we live in.

>2. Do they exist now in our current time? By this I mean, are they created in
the future and travel backwards or could we find some of their ancestors on
Earth today?


One metaphysical theory is that all time is simultaneous. They say there are
earth humans who continually reincarnate on this planet and that there is the
family of light who have come from the future to change this planet. The
family of light has a holographically inserted past so they believe they have
a past. I think that is why some like myself feel a real connection to the
Pleiadians, while others think it is a bunch of bull.  They often admit they
are here to trick us, just as they have teachers who trick them.  By trick I
think they mean talk us out of our limiting beliefs about reality.  For
instance the religious concept of god is a good example.  They say god(s) are
much like going into a restaurant and ordering from a menu.  That there are
numerous quote gods. And unfortunately they are not all to be trusted.  They
use the concept of first cause and say that everything is derived or a spark
from first cause even the gods. Now the problem is there are many who have
forgotten their connection to first cause, even gods.  And from my observation
the primary purpose of religion is to convince individuals to forget their
connection and empowerment from first cause and turn it over to an entity
(god).

>3. What are they ? eg. humans, apes or replites after x years of evolution.

This brings up the idea that if it is not physical it does not exist, ie no
body, no credibility. If there is one thing I would like to get across to
people. It is that entities do exist in the non physical as energy.  And they
can be intelligent.  In fact we each have non physical aspects of ourselves.
One aspect survives death and reincarnates. I have observed this by assisting
individuals to remember their past lives and as importantly to remember the
time after a body died between lives. In all of the over 500 people I have
worked with that remembered a past life they also related information that was
between lives, when they were not in a body.  So to me it makes a lot of since
that intelligent entities can exist who are not currently in a body. As you
will see from the transcript we are not evolved, we as humans were created
fully evolved and some entities(gods) scrambled our DNA so we are actually
using only 1/6 of our DNA the other 5/6 is idle. Hence the observation that we
only use 1/10 of our brain. I feel that the exciting thing about the Pleiadian
teachings is that we can fully activate our brain (DNA) and that we can do it
in this lifetime.  I think that the reason that our brain is 90% water is that
it is mainly electromagnetic (water holds a charge).  The electromagnetic part
holds a template of what we think reality is. Being electrical is is possible
to change it fairly easily if we choose to do so.  But that does involve
examining some of our most sacred beliefs. And unfortunately most people would
rather die than change their beliefs. Included in the concept of sacred
beliefs is facts, as I have said in a past posting facts are nothing but
petrified beliefs.

>4. Why do they want us to change the present ? Is it to their benefit or
ours?

Both! By changing our present they mean, taking back our power, our
sovereignty, our connection to and empowerment from first cause.  Now that is
tremendously exciting. Because what they are saying is that we are each
empowered by the same first cause energy that everything else is empowered by.
Meaning we do and can create any reality we want to with exactly the same
energy and power first cause uses in creating all that is.  We are literally
gods in bodies, nothing less, except what we believe ourselves down to be.  So
the Pleiadians say there is a probable future that has tyranny in it.  Which
noticing our current reality is not to hard to believe. I have noticed quite a
bit of tyranny currently on this planet. :-) (To say the least). So it makes
sense that it is going to continue into the future unless something is done
about it. The truly exciting thing is that all each of us need to do is wake
up to who we are, stop giving our power away and start creating the reality we
want as sovereign entities.  An affirmation or tip that the Pleiadians give is
to repeat the following In joy, saftey, harmony and sexuality I step into the
unknown.

Don Showen

PS I have had at least 12 requests for the transcripts bounce.  Now I am not
sure whether it is an email problem, my lack of understanding of email, or
cranks sending me bad addresses. So if you have not received the transcripts
try again. From now on before sending the seven files that may bounce back, I
will send a confirmation email that you will have to acknowledge before I send
the seven files. DS
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!willee.enet.dec.com!fretts
From: [e-mail] (Carole Fretts)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Owl memory
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Sep 91 14:02:55 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 18


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson) writes...
>[e-mail] (Eric Herrera) scribbles:
>

It *is* normal to have the experience of waking in the middle of the night
and being paralyzed for a short period of time.  This has happened to me
once.  My situation was that something was happening in a dream that I didn't
like, so I pulled myself out of the dream and woke myself up only to find that
I could not move or speak, but was fully awake!  Very strange sensation!
Turns out that, if a person wakes up during a certain segment of the sleep
cycle, their bodies are still in this paralyzed state which is a normal
occurrence during very deep sleep.  It's a safety mechanism of sorts during
sleep, but the conscious mind has a hard time dealing with it because it is
rare to be conscious/awake during it.  If you *do* wake up in that state, the
body takes a little time to kick out of it.

Carole
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ysub!psuvm!cunyvm!rowhc
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wheat Circles and Confessors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Sep 91 10:20:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Lines: 24

I agree with the Chuckmeister when he says that the hoaxsters in UK
who claim to be behind the crop circles are probably hoaxing.

If they claim to be hoaxsters, why should anyone believe them?

Also, there was a circle found not long ago in Kissena Park,
which is a run-down lot in Flushing, Queens.

Queens is a borough of NYC. I bet those two clowns never heard of
Flushing. These circles have been spotted on many continents.

By the way, this posting itself is a hoax.
(just kidding...)


Rob Walters
Adventure Editor
Spheric (CUNY Science Newspaper)
695 Park Ave.
New York, NY 10021
[phone]

"A carrot is as close as a rabbit gets to a diamond"
                                -Don Van Vliet
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!mixcom!jjwwjj
From: [e-mail] (Robotic Systems)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: VAN HALEN SONG: ABOUT ALIENS?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Sep 91 15:18:06 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Milwaukee Information eXchange (Public access Usenet, Email)
Lines: 16

I asked this a couple of days back, but got no reply. I hope no one minds that
I ask it again:

Does anyone know if the song "Love Comes Walking In" is a about aliens? I don't
know if that is the real name of the song, but that is the most often repeated
phrase. Anyway, I was listening to the words and a lot of the song seems to
deal with aliens.

What does Sammy Hagar know? Is Sammy Hagar a GREY with hair?


--
===============================================================================
Clint Laskowski              Post Office Box 552, Cudahy, Wisconsin  53110-0552
ROBOTIC SYSTEMS              INTERNET: [e-mail]  VOICE: [phone]
===============================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!ukma!ra!cee1
From: [e-mail] (The Chuckmeister)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wheat Circles and Confessors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Sep 91 17:55:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 48

[e-mail] hoaxes with:


>I agree with the Chuckmeister when he says that the hoaxsters in UK
>who claim to be behind the crop circles are probably hoaxing.

>If they claim to be hoaxsters, why should anyone believe them?

>Also, there was a circle found not long ago in Kissena Park,
>which is a run-down lot in Flushing, Queens.

>Queens is a borough of NYC. I bet those two clowns never heard of
>Flushing. These circles have been spotted on many continents.

>By the way, this posting itself is a hoax.
>(just kidding...)

     Hmmm circles in a park..... hmmm is it just grass or something?

     I remember a previous post.. why is all these things happening in
     JUST wheat fields?? Why not corn, soybean, milo, beans, etc??


     More unmarked black helicopters around the other night. Sheeez.

The CHCKMEISTER

>Rob Walters
>Adventure Editor
>Spheric (CUNY Science Newspaper)
>695 Park Ave.
>New York, NY 10021
>[phone]

>"A carrot is as close as a rabbit gets to a diamond"
>                                -Don Van Vliet
--

 +------------------------------------------\\         -------------
 |  Internet:      [e-mail]        \\    --------------------
 |  Bitnet:        [e-mail]         >>   Jesus Christ is Lord
 |  Real Identity: Charles Edward Evans       //    --------------------
 +------------------------------------------//         --------------

  "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call HERESY,
   so worship I the God of my fathers, BELIEVING ALL THINGS which are
   WRITTEN in the law and in the prophets."
                                               -- Acts 24:14
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!anuurn!ffoire
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Orrok)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Research in space alien impact methods.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Sep 91 19:29:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: the Hani homeworld. (Wilmette, IL)
Lines: 14

[e-mail] (Mark Francis Stramaglia) writes:
> CC:samuel ward
[...incoherent ramblings deleted...]

Normally I wouldn't do this, but the post came from Carnegie Mellon, which I
*thought* was a top-flight school.  Mr. Stramaglia, get off the bennies and
take a course in writing (and maybe english) before you post again.

je<FF>
--
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" -- marx
"From each according to his naivete, to each according to his greed" -- me
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!slxsys!ibmpcug!robobar!stl!stc!fsb
From: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Semjase and the Pleiadeans
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Sep 91 09:45:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (System Administration)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (The Xanadian) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Frank
>Stuart Brown) says:
>>
>>
>>Quel un croc du merde!
>>
>
>..............mmmoooOOOOOOOoo!!    pvfthffhthvfft!

Sorry
Quelle une crocke de la merde!

--
Frank Stuart-Brown, Dept 31700, Customer Services,
<[e-mail]>  ||  !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb
[e-mail]
Tel [phone]  ||  [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!icdoc!ibmassc!rob
From: [e-mail] (Robert Trevelyan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Doug and Dave on hoaxes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Sep 91 20:19:07 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Robert Trevelyan)
Organization: IBM AIX Systems Support Centre, UK.
Lines: 137

In England the crop circle season is now over as just about all fields
have been harvested. Recent events have brought about details of a
ministerial meeting in London about a year ago when Margaret Thatcher
was still PM.(though she was not present at the meeting).The purpose
of the meeting was to discuss Crop Circles and three ministeries were
involved in this namely Defence, Agriculture and Environment.
It was agreed at this meeting that the cause of Crop Circles was completely
unknown and and the meteological theory was *out of hand* and that all
crop circles were *not* hoaxes although there had obviously been a fair
few hoaxes.
Responsibility for keeping a watch on crop circle developments was handed
over to the Ministry of Defence whose brief was to take *appropriate action*.
The MOD were to update the other two ministries but during this meeting
the word "disinformation" was mentioned on several occasions.The above
details were passed on by someone who attended the meeting.

During the last few weeks it appears as if this disinformation campaign
has actually started by the arrival of Dave and Doug. There is at present
no way of finding out who is behind the disinformation campaign but it is
certainly being seen to happen.The newspaper "Today" has now produced two    gents in the 60's who claim to have been creating crop circles for the last
13 years.They can obviously only fool a few people with these claims as even
if all crop circles were hoaxes two people of any age would not be able to
create formations all over the English countryside let alone the world.
The assertation by the Today newspaper, famous for quoting that the 1990
pictogram at Alton Barnes was a Sumarian warning to double your wells as
there was going to be a drought,(could have been mistaken for oil wells
in the Gulf that needed the warning), that this explains the crop circle
phenomenon is absurd.

The scam relied largely on catching one of the leading Circles experts in
a trap which was carefully laid for him. This was undertaken by a informing
Pat Delgado that a strange crop circle formation had appeared in a field in
Sevenoaks, Kent, England, the paper said they believed it to be a hoax and
that the farmer also was sure it was a hoax. They asked if Pat D would give
a professional opinion.

Pat Delgado agreed and travelled to Ightham near Sevenoaks and was taken to
see the formation which, to his amazement, was an "insectogram" formation
closely resembling the ones in the Hampshire in June and July of this year.
All the features were present of the usual "insectogram" although imperfect
but Pat D gave his unqualified blessing which was recorded on tape and he
was filmed in the formation by a camera crew in a helicopter. The trap had
closed in on him.

The Today newspaper then waited until Sunday before bringing two alleged
hoaxers, Dave and Doug to Pat Delgado's house.There they confronted him
with a film taken of the two hoaxers making the formation in Kent that
Pat D had said was genuine.They claimed to have been faking circles for
13 years near Winchester and so on..Pat Delgado had to then make any
concessions that the Today newspaper demended of him. It is interesting
to find that at a later stage of the confrontation Colin Andrews appeared
and fought back by cross-questioning Doug and Dave. He soon found that
they were unable to answer many questions and their minders withdrew them
before their case was badly damaged.

Obviously at the stage the irreparable damage had been done to Pat Delgado's
reputation but nevertheless no concrete evidence had been presented that
Dave and Doug had faked any other known circle or pictogram apart from the
bogus one at Kent which has been conveniently removed in the meantime by
harvesting. The two appeared on TV on Monday to demonstrate to the press
and the TV how they create such a formation in a wheatfield in Chilgrove,
Sussex.The dumb-bell formation which they produced was a pathetic mess and
could be clearly seen on TV as such although the two hoaxers complained
that was due to over-ripe wheat.

The story in the Today Newspaper originated from a shadowy outfit called
"MBF Services" who suplied the story to Today and have doubtlessly paid
Dave and Doug, also indemnifying them against all lawsuits and claims
of criminal damage from Hampshire farmers.
MBF Services have been tracked down to an accomodation address in
Shepton Mallet near Bristol, England and are registered clients of an
expensive up-market firm of accountants, Barclay Jackson. All attempts
to identify the people behind MBF Services have failed and the Today will
either side-step or remain silent. The firm of accountants describe their
clients as a "scientific research and development" company but obviously
what or whoever is behind this front has a great deal of financial backing.
Undoubtedly this is infact a well organised and long planned attempt to
rubbish the crop circle phenomenon and may even turn out to be
government-inspired but when the 1992 season brings its new crop then
this fiasco will end.

I have personally met both Dave and Doug about 2 years ago at the site of
of a formation near Winchester. Dave is retired and has a hobby of recording
bird songs on a portable tape machine. He told me,whilst at the side of the A272
main road that passes by Cheesefoot Head Winchester,that he had been
wandering through some crop fields recording bird songs back in the 1970's
when he came across a flattened swirled area of corn. A bit amazed he
wandered around the formation trying to ascertain what it was and unknowingly
left his tape recording. Basically when he played back the tape after he had
been in the crop circle he heard voices on a tape which was a brand new tape
previously, the voices were not heard whilst he was alone in the formation
but nevertheless he claimed he recognised the voices as a converstion he had
had 30 years previously. I am not sure how he knows this or even if I believe
what he told me but it kinda shows he did not hoax crop circles back then
and was very enthusiastic about the crop circle we were by at the time and
could offer no explaination of how it had been created.

Doug was the more genial of the two he said at the time, back in 1990,
that he "could just imagine them [UFO's] darting between two clouds", that
were at the time directly over Winchester, "and creating a crop circle"
The day was very overcast and the clouds were the dark grey variety we get
quite a bit in the UK but there was a bright gap between two of these.
He definatley gave me the impression he was interested in UFO's and the
like and said to have taken photographs of crop circles (plain circles)
back as far as tha mid 70's but I never saw any of these.

One thing that really struck me is that they were not very pleased with
either Pat Delgado or Colin Andrews as they believe they (PD and CA) had
not given Don Tuesley, one of the original crop circle researchers, any
thanks for his help in the then current book "Circular Evidence". Dave
and Doug believed that the fame had gone to both Pat Delgado's and Colin
Andrews heads and that they did not give anyone else any credit for help
they received. I know both Pat Delgado and Colin Andrews and totally
disagree that this is the case as they go out of their way to credit any
photos or information received from anyone. I have had the privilege of
having a mention in their book "Crop Circles- The latest Evidence" for
finding the first pictogram, although Pat D seems to call me Bob and adds
an extra L. I am not alone in being credited with information or photos
as one can see in their books.

Sorry to waffle a bit but my opinion is that Dave and Doug are off their
trolley and I do not believe all crop circles are hoaxes by "D+D hoaxes"
or not. There is a genuine phenomenon and it is not a vortex, note that
D+D never claimed to have created any formations in Wiltshire.
PS. If you see a grey Nissan Sunny by the side of a field with two gents
in their 60's in it thats Dave and Doug hoaxers extraordinaire.

+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                          DISCLAIMER:                              |
| The views expressed in this document are not a corporate view     |
| nor reflect the views of my employer by any means but are my      |
| own personal views on this subject .                              |
|                                                                   |
| Robert Trevelyan            UKnet: [e-mail] |
| AIX Communications             VNET: TREVELR at BASVM2     |
|                     Voice: [phone]     |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera
From: [e-mail] (Eric Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: VAN HALEN SONG: ABOUT ALIENS?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Sep 91 21:40:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
Lines: 22

>
>Does anyone know if the song "Love Comes Walking In" is a about aliens? I don't
>know if that is the real name of the song, but that is the most often repeated
>phrase. Anyway, I was listening to the words and a lot of the song seems to
>deal with aliens.
>

I think the chorus to "Love Comes Walking In" goes something like:
    ...And then you sense a change
       And nothing seems the same
       Your life is re-arranged (?)
       Love comes walking in
       Some kind of alien
       Comes in and pulls a string
       (something I can't remember offhand)
       Love comes walking in...
The second verse (I think) also mentions something like "bright lights
above" (whatever), but I think it's purely a love song using the "alien"
theme as a metaphor for the unexpectedness and transformation of love and
yes Sammy Hagar is a grey (but he's wearing a wig).

Eric P. Herrera...  [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!news.larc.nasa.gov!vab02.larc.nasa.gov!smd
From: [e-mail] (Steve M. Dahmen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Owl memory
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Sep 91 01:28:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET Network News)
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA
Lines: 58
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 14 Sep 91 19: 42:43 GMT


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson) writes:


> [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) scribbles:
>
> [deleted]
>
> > Since those days I have had several experiences like the following:
> > I wake up suddenly in the middle of the night.  I am conscious, but
> > I can't move.  I feel an unusual tingling sensation all over my body
> > and it makes me want to sleep immediately.  The fear of being unable
> > to move makes me fight the urge to sleep, and I become fully awake.
> > Everything is quiet and in order.  I can move my limbs.  Eventually
> > I calm myself and am able to sleep (without the tingling sensation).
> >
> > Please let me know what you think.  Thank you.
> >
> > Eric...  [e-mail]
>
>
> I've had the same experience (exactely like that) two times in the last
> year.  The first time it happened I really freaked out, I was conscious
> but I couldn't move my body at all.  I thought I was paralyzed, and I
> tryed to yell but I couldn't.  It was scary, this may sound weird but I
> thought something was going to do something to me.  I eventually pulled
> myself out of this state and I was FULLY awake.  It scared me, but I
> asked my Mother about this and she said it's perfectly normal (not sure
> why!).  Anyways, it happened to me again about 2 months or so later, and
> this time I didn't get scared.  I just lay in my bed (eyes open) and said
> "Hey, it's happening again, but I'm not worried.".  And that's about it!

> Gary

I think what you experienced was being only partway in your body...
It's quite common.  perhaps some small noise or body feeling pulled
you back, but not "enough back" to gain motor control.  It's natural
to want to go back to sleep, because that's the easiest way to get
back in the body "right".  Or, you can, through your will, force it to
happen like Eric did.  You feel vulnerable mostly because you don't
know what's going on.

Another related phenomena is coming in "half way" into your body,
where you feel just so sleepy and out of it (literally) all day
long... coordination is difficult, thinking is difficult.... and all
it takes is a half hour nap and BOING you're ready to roll.  The half
out experience happens to me when someone/thing wakes me very
suddenly, or I nap at an unusual time.

Hope this helps....

steve.

--
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Steve Dahmen, Systems Analyst                         [phone] (W)
Vigyan Research, Inc .- NASA Langley Research Center
Internet: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!udel!gatech!emory!ra!tlb1
From: [e-mail] (Spellweaver)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Sep 91 03:05:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: Mississippi State University
Lines: 5
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15127 alt.paranormal:3082 alt.alien.visitors:2046 talk.religion.newage:6831

physically/unphysically to be?  That info about beings not having to have
a physical body, et cetera, was very nice and informative, but it didn't
answer the question.  I would assume from your answer that they are beings
of energy, but I hate to make assumptions on tricky subjects.  So, please
re-answer.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!uniwa!hartley
From: [e-mail] (Mike H)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wheat Circles and Confessors
Keywords: HOAX?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Sep 91 03:52:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <h#[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Western Australia
Lines: 6
Nntp-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au

According to the corn-circles article published in the West Australian
Newspaper, the two chaps got the idea from the place they grew up in,
in Queensland, Australia, where in the late '50s to early '60s the
circles were done regularly as a joke. Frankly, I find this quite plausible.

Yours, Mike H.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!lll-winken!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Sep 91 01:40:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 52
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15130 alt.paranormal:3083 alt.alien.visitors:2048 talk.religion.newage:6832


        Dan, I've read the transcripts you've posted, and I'm perfectly
willing to believe that they come from a higher form of intelligence.
However, I'm going to require proof. And I have a test that would be
satisfactory proof.

        I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem
for me.

        In a system of logic, one is required to evaluate a statement of
number theory as True or False. (For example, 1+1=2 is True within the
standard math we're all taught, but one can easily prove the statement 2+2=5
to be demonstrably False within this system.)

        Now, there are some statements of number theory that, as of yet, we
have not been able to prove to be either True or False. Such if fermat's Last
Theorem.

        Essentially, the statement is this: For integers x,y, and z, there
exists no solution for the following equation if n > 2.

        The equation is (x^n) + (y^n) = (z^n).

        For example, if n=2, we can find whole numbers for x,y and z that mke
a true statement of number theory, as follows:

        (3^2) + (4^2) = (5^2)
          9   +   16  =   25

        But, if n is gREATER than two, there are apparently no whole numbers
we can plug into x,y or z that make the equation true.

        The problem is this; there's no existing proof for this. There may be
integers we haven't tried yet that make the equation work. But we can't
disprove that statement above either.

        My question is this: Can the Pleiadians either prove or disprove
that, for integers x,y and z, there exists no soluton for the equation
(x^n)+(y^n)=(z^n) where n>2?

        If they can provide a proof, they would be providing us with
knowledge currently unknown by man... but knowledge that _can_ be verified
empirically. And I'd be surprised if a higher intelligence could lower itself
to perform symbolic logic.

        Solve it, and you've got a convert. (Maybe even a Nobel.)

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
[e-mail]                     "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!d75!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!craigb
From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Owl memory -> Sleep Paralysis
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Sep 91 17:41:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 87

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Gary Stimpson) writes:
> [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) scribbles:
>
> > Since those days I have had several experiences like the following:
> > I wake up suddenly in the middle of the night.  I am conscious, but
> > I can't move.  I feel an unusual tingling sensation all over my body
>
> I've had the same experience (exactely like that) two times in the last
> year.  The first time it happened I really freaked out, I was conscious
> but I couldn't move my body at all.  I thought I was paralyzed, and I
> tryed to yell but I couldn't.  It was scary, this may sound weird but I
> thought something was going to do something to me.  I eventually pulled
> myself out of this state and I was FULLY awake.

I believe that what you were both experiencing is a sleep disorder known
prosaically as "Sleep Paralysis"...you can look it up in any decent book on
sleep disorders.

I had attacks of this nature for several years and eventually did some
research on it (was happy to find that I didn't have some kinda weird brain
tumor :-). Currently I'll have 2 or 3 episodes every 2 months or so.

No real hard statistics exist, but it's believed that a fairly large
percentage of people have experienced SP; not all of them remember it.
Sleeping in an uncomfortable place or position seems somewhat conducive to
bringing on the experience.

Since I figured out what it was, I've encountered several people who have
also had bouts with SP (they're usually surprised to hear about it, and
happy to know that they're "normal"). What usually happens is that you are
asleep and suddenly become conscious but unable to move. There is often a
very harsh, loud, buzzing sound that seems to come from "inside the ear".
Occasionally there will be tactile hallucinations, such as that of being
touched. Often there will be visual hallucinations...a friend of mine
claims that he saw his dead grandfather standing at the foot of his bed
during a SP experience. Myself, I often have the feeling that I'm having
an "out-of-body" experience...no, I don't think it's for real, just a
consequence of being scared and wanting to move and I'll hallucinate for
a brief period of time that I am indeed moving, walking around, etc. Then
I'll suddenly snap back to being paralyzed and in bed again.

All of this is usually accompanied by a very intense sensation of fear; the
characterization above that "I thought something was going to do something to
me" is a pretty good description.

As a piece of trivia, SF/math writer Rudy Rucker has some experience with
SP...his novel _White Light_ never mentions it explicitly but he told me that
some of it was based on SP experiences he's had.

Anyway, the (admittedly non-rigorous) scientific explanation of this
phenomenon is that there is some kind of virtual "switch" that connects one's
brain to one's body, and that when we sleep, this switch is "opened", thus
keeping us from flopping around in bed while dreaming that we're running away
from a pack of dill-pickle wielding fire lizards. Occasionally (for reasons
as yet to be determined), we "awaken" without closing the switch.

It's been awhile since I've looked any of this stuff up...if anyone has any
better/more current information, I'd like to hear from them.

:opinion on

I often wonder if SP is responsible for what people call "out-of-body
experiences"...it's hard to describe if you've never felt it, but if you
ever have, you know what I mean.

Also have my suspicions as to whether or not SP is responsible for any
reported "ghost" sightings, such as my friend claims to have had.

And there are some small similarities between SP and Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's
(sp?) "near-death" experiences.

:opinion off

Anyway, hope this has proved to be interesting to some of you.

Craig

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--                                Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
-- "As far back as I can remember,        Internet: [e-mail] --
--  I always wanted to be a gangster."    Austin: [e-mail] --
--                  - Henry Hill                    VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- off 808/1K-020 zip 3008 ph [phone] tl 793-1756 hm [phone] --
-- IBM Personal Systems Programming,  11400 Burnet Road, Austin, TX, 78759 --
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: VAN HALEN SONG: ABOUT ALIENS?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Sep 91 04:27:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robotic Systems) writes:
>I asked this a couple of days back, but got no reply. I hope no one minds that
>I ask it again:
>
>Does anyone know if the song "Love Comes Walking In" is a about aliens? I don't
>know if that is the real name of the song, but that is the most often repeated
>phrase. Anyway, I was listening to the words and a lot of the song seems to
>deal with aliens.
>
>What does Sammy Hagar know? Is Sammy Hagar a GREY with hair?
>
>

ROTF!

Other than the "skeptics" explanations for the "crop circles", this was
the BEST joke I've seen all week. :-)


Sammy Hagar a Grey? Nahhhhh
Right..."Could you please pass the GREY Poupon, Sammmy?"

Don



--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Continuum
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Sep 91 00:56:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 18


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally from Michael Corbin
 * Originally dated 09-15-91 17:55

After a small delay, the premier issue of Continuum, ParaNet's official bi-
monthly news magazine is ready to go to press.  This is a final call for you to
get a free first issue, by sending your name and mailing address via this
network or email to [e-mail].

Don't miss out!!  It ships on Friday, September 20th.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Thanks for the information.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Sep 91 14:42:26 GMT
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB
Lines: 10

Thanks for the info everybody (about Sleep Paralysis)!  It was very
interesting, now I can feel a bit more normal <grin>.

I've only experienced this twice, and also have had 2 OBE experiences.
All I can say is "AWESOME!".  It was great.. but this has nothing to do with
Aliens, so I'll stop.

--- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
E-mail: [e-mail]
system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
Path: ns-mx!uunet!infonode!ingr!b17a!brock
From: [e-mail] (James Brock)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Pleiadian Transcripts
Keywords: DON SHWEN
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Sep 91 20:03:47 GMT
Organization: Intergraph
Lines: 13

Would DON SHOWEN please send me the PLEIADIAN TRANSCRIPTS?

I am unable to find your EMAIL address, but please send the
material to me.

THANKS,

JAMES
--
################################################################
James A. Brock, Jr.
Post office Box 859, Huntsville, AL 35804
"All opinions/facts are mine, belong to no other entity"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!strath-cs!glasgow!degnans
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Degnan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: X the bodydigger is back, folks...SO WATCH OUT!
Summary: Well....
Keywords: X, FROG, BELGUIM BEER, MOUSTACHE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Sep 91 14:02:30 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.
Lines: 11

YESsurrreeeeFOLKS:

I have it from my European sources, that X, the bodydigger is on his
way back from France, via Belgium. (notices the similarity to
NATIONAL LAMPOONS EUROPEAN VACATION?...did you also notices that
it you play the works "Chevy Chase" backwards with a flanging effect
you can almost hear the words "X the bodydigger"?)

Anyway....he'll be back in Glasgow soon. So be careful out there, dudes.

And remember.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!jmilhoan
From: [e-mail] (Jason T Milhoan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Owl memory -> Sleep Paralysis
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Sep 91 23:27:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <11124
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu


I have experienced sleep paralysis, but usually it occurs when I try to induce
an out of body experience.  In fact, they are very scary.  I haven't been able
to achieve an OBE due to the hallucinations (????) associated with SP for about
5 or 6 years.  I dont thinkt it is an entirely mental thing, but probably some
connections to "the dark side" :-)

jmilhoan
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Mt. Shasta Pt.1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Sep 91 00:13:59 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 13
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2056 sci.skeptic:15168


     This information has been posted  for John Winston by Don Showen.
     In my last trip to Phoenix for the  UFO Conference I had the opportunity
to tape an couple of people named Shield and Sharula Dux.   They claim to be
from a city underneath Mt. Shasta called Telos.   This city has one and  one
half million people.  They claim to have been there for the last l4 thousand
years when they came from Lemuria in the Pacific after it  sunk beneath the
ocean.  The man is from New England, in America but the lady was born  in
Telos.   They do operate some of the space ships that are seen in our skies.
The overall leader of their space fleet is called  Ashtar and a command of one
of their fleet called the Silver fleet is called Anton.
     I ll leave you with this saying; Anybody who s as  sound as a dollar
these days had better see a doctor. Standard Disclaimer. John.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!ubc-cs!unixg.ubc.ca!merlin.ucs.ubc.ca!westfall
From: [e-mail] (Valerie Westfall)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Doug and Dave on hoaxes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Sep 91 05:00:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Maintenance)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Valerie Westfall)
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: merlin.ucs.ubc.ca

Yes, I too find it hard to imagine Doug and Dave travelling furiously around
the world creating circles in foreign crops.  Uh, like maybe other people have
been trying to make crop circles too. :-)  Maybe this explains why crop
circles in other countries, for example Canada, are quite rough and even
primitive in comparison to recent formations in England. Find me a complex
formation (ie. an insectogram) in a country where no circles have previously
appeared and THEN I'll be impressed. Maybe you should check Doug and Dave's
passports while you're at it...(:-))2
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: FILE: Circle Bibliography - MUFON file
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Sep 91 03:14:24 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 549
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2058 alt.conspiracy:7178 sci.skeptic:15179


With all the ruckus that has been stirred up lately by cries
of "It's all a hoax!" in the crop circle threads in various
newsgroups, I'm presenting this file so you can source the
included publications and learn that there's more to this
phenomenon that has been going on for over 400 years than just
"2 old geezers with a board did it".

-----begin included text -------------------------------------------




          Circles of Note: Bibliography on the Crop Circles
         Updated June 9, 1991

                        Michael Chorost

     Bibliographies always look rather dry.  However, a careful reader
can learn much from this one, since many of the entries have parentheti-
cal summaries attached to them.  Also, a close look at the topics will
reveal the diversity of the crop circles phenomenon and the responses it
has gathered.  Finally, the sections on books, magazines, and studies
include price and ordering information, where known.

     I should note two sets of exclusions.  First, I have not indexed
articles from journals devoted to cerealogy.  Much of the best information
has been printed in their pages; back numbers can often be obtained by
writing to the editors.  Second, I have tended to include newspaper arti-
cles only of particular interest or informativeness, such as ones reporting
circles in detail, non-English circles, or noteworthy points of view.

     Inclusion in this bibliography does not imply endorsement.

     I am indebted to my contacts and colleagues in England, Canada,
and the United States, who generously sent me many of the articles listed
here.  I would be grateful to receive any corrections and additions, which
will be included in future updates.  Contact me at:

                        Michael Chorost
                      North American Circle
                         P.O. Box 61144
                     Durham, NC 27715-1144


All items listed alphabetically by author.

Books

Circular Evidence.  Pat Delgado and Colin Andrews.  London: Bloomsbury
Press, 1989.  190 pp.  US price $29.95 hardcover, $14.95 softcover.  At
least three sources: (1) Phanes Press, P.O. Box 6114, Grand Rapids, MI
49516, tel. [phone].  (2) Arcturus Book Services, P.O. Box 831383,
Stone Mountain, Georgia, 30083-0023, tel. [phone].  (3) Trafalgar
Square, Vermont, NY, tel. [phone].

Crop Circles: The Latest Evidence.  Pat Delgado and Colin Andrews.
London: Bloomsbury Press, 1990.  80 pp.  UK L5.99, US $13.95.  Ordering
information as above.

The Controversy of the Circles.  Paul Fuller and Jenny Randles.  UK
L4.20.  BUFORA, 103 Hove Avenue, Walthamstow, London.

Crop Circles: A Mystery Solved.  Paul Fuller and Jenny Randles.  London:
Robert Hale Ltd, 1990, 250 pp.  UK L13.95, US $30.95 (from Arcturus Books,
see entry for Circular Evidence above.)

The UFO Report 1990.  Edited by Timothy Good.  Sidgwick & Jackson,


1990.  See "The Celtic Cross", p. 91-94.

The Circles Effect and Its Mysteries.  George Terence Meaden.  Bradford-
on-Avon: Artetech Publishing Company, April 1990 (2nd ed.)  116 pp.  UK
L11.95.  Order from Artetech, 54 Frome Road, Bradford-on-Avon, BA15 1LD;
tel. [phone].

Proceedings of the First International Conference on the Circles Effect.
Edited by George Terence Meaden and Derek Elsom.  Copyright TORRO-
CERES (Tornado and Storm Research Organization-Circles Effect Research
Group).  134pp.  Conference held at Oxford Polytechnic on June 23, 1990.
Available from Artetech (see previous item) at UK L10.

Circles From The Sky.  Edited by George Terence Meaden.  The expanded,
hardcover edition of the Proceedings (see previous item.)  208 pp.  UK
L14.99 from Souvenir Press, 43 Great Russell Street, London WC1B 3PA.

The Crop Circle Enigma.  Edited by Ralph Noyes.  Bath: Gateway Books,
1990.  192 pp.  $29.95 (note price increase.)  At least four sources: (1)
The Great Tradition, 11270 Clayton Creek Road, P.O. Box 108, Lower Lake,
CA 95457, tel. [phone].  (2) New Leaf Book Distributing Co, 5425
Tulane Drive SW, Atlanta, GA 30336-2323, tel. [phone].  (3) Inland
Book Co, P.O. Box 261, East Haven, CT 06512, tel. [phone].  (4)
Bookpeople, 2929 Fifth Street, Berkeley, CA 94710, tel. [phone].

Physical Traces Associated With UFO Sightings.  Compiled by Ted Phillips,
edited by Mimi Hynek.  Northfield, Illinois: Center for UFO Studies, 1975.

The Natural History of Stafford-shire.  Robert Plott (spelled "Plot" on title
page.)  Oxford, 1686.  (Pages 7-21 describe what may be 17th-century
fairy rings or crop circles.)

Passport to Magonia.  Jacques Vallee.  Chicago: Henry Regnery Co, 1969.
(See "Rings In The Moonlight", pp. 31-39, on "UFO nests.")

Periodicals

Circles Phenomenon Research (CPR) Newsletter.  Editor: Pat Delgado.  1-
year subscription (4 issues) $24.00 (but price may be reduced; write for
current information.)  CPR Satellite Office, 117 Ashland Lane, Aurora, OH
44202.  Make checks payable to D.S. Rulison.  (Sympathetic to theories of
non-human intelligence.)

UFO Newsclipping Service.  Editor: Lucius Farish.  1-year subscription (12
issues) $55. Route 1, Box 220, Plumerville, Arkansas 72127.  (Excellent
source for newspaper reports of crop circles worldwide.)

The Crop Watcher.  Editor: Paul Fuller.  1-year subscription (6 issues) UK
L13.00 (overseas airmail price.)  3 Selborne Court, Tavistock Close, Romsey,
Hampshire SO51 7TY, England.  (Sympathetic to the meteorological theory.)

The Circular.  Editor: Bob Kingsley.  1-year subscription (4 issues) in-
cluded with membership in CCCS (Centre for Crop Circle Studies.)  Over-
seas membership UK L15, US $33.  Payable Visa/Access/Mastercard/Euro-
card.  Write to Specialist Knowledge Services, St. Aldhelm, 20 Paul Street,
Frome, Somerset BA 11 1DX, U.K., or call (0373) 51777.

Journal of Meteorology.  Editor: George Terence Meaden.  1-year overseas
subscription (10 issues) UK L55 surface, L65 airmail.  54 Frome Road,
Bradford-on-Avon, Wiltshire, BA15 1LD, England.  (The bastion of the
meteorological theory.)

The Cerealogist.  Editor: John Michell.  1-year subscription (3 issues)
L7.50, US $18.00.  Payable Visa/Access/Mastercard/Eurocard.  Write to
Specialist Knowledge Services, St. Aldhelm, 20 Paul Street, Frome, Somerset
BA 11 1DX, U.K., or call (0373) 51777.  (Closely associated with the CCCS.
Eclectic approach.)

The Swamp Gas Journal.  Editor: Chris Rutkowski.  For subscription
information, write to the editor at Box 1918, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
R3C 3R2.  (Loosely associated with NAICCR--see "Studies"; runs stories on
Canadian crop circles.)

Mufon UFO Journal.  Editor: Dennis Stacy.  1-year subscription (12 issues)
$25.  103 Oldtowne Road, Seguin, Texas 78155-4099.  (Frequently runs
articles on crop circles, particularly North American ones.)

Articles

"Midwest Crop Circles."  Erich A. Aggen, Jr.  Mufon UFO Journal, no. 272
(December 1990), pp. 15-16.  (Irregular crop circles near Odessa,
Missouri.)

"Circular Evidence."  Colin Andrews.  Mufon UFO Journal, no. 243 (July
1988), pp. 11-13.  (Discussion of several 1987 formations.)

"Major Increase in Mystery Circles."  Colin Andrews.  Kindred Spirit (UK)
vol 1 no. 5 (Winter 1988-89) pp. 27-28.

"Crop Circles Appear in the U.S.S.R."  Walt Andrus.  Mufon UFO Journal,
no. 270 (October 1990), p. 13.  (Oval, 35 by 45 meters; Krasnodar region.)

"The Thumb Prints of the Gods?"  Anonymous.  U.S. News & World Report,
Sept. 11, 1989.  (Short item.)

"Prepare to Meet Thy Drought."  Anonymous.  Today, July 20, 1990.
(Suggests the multiple pictograms resemble the Sumerian language or
weather-map symbols.)

"Mystery Circles in Fukuoka."  Anonymous.  Asahi Evening News (Tokyo),
Sept. 28, 1990.  (Two circles 12 km. E of Fukuoka City, Japan, found Sept.
17, 1990.)

"More Circular Evidence."  Richard Beaumont.  Kindred Spirit, vol. 1, no.
8, pp. 25-28.  (Interview with Colin Andrews.  Discusses electrical, psy-
chic, and historical events associated with the circles.)

"Crop Circles: The Mystery Deepens."  Richard Beaumont.  Kindred Spirit,
vol. 1, no. 12, pp. 32-37.  (Summary of the key developments of the
Summer 1990 season, with aerial photos.)

"The English 'Circles' Mystery."  Jon Erik Beckjord.  UFO vol. 5, no. 6
(probably late 1990), pp. 9-13, 39.  (Discusses personal visit to several
formations.)

"Possible Physical Mechanism for Producing Crop Circles."  John Branden-
burg.  Mufon UFO Journal, no. 276 (April 1991), pp. 10-11.  (Suggests
microwave beams are responsible for flattening plants.)

"UFO Report to Farmers."  George Brandsberg.  Farm Profit, July-August
1975.  (Discusses scorched patches and long swathes of sliced-off corn.)

"The Summer 1990 Crop Circles."  Michael Chorost and Colin Andrews.
Mufon UFO Journal, no. 272 (December 1990), pp. 3-14.  (Layering of
crops, EM effects, possibility of language. 10 photos, 3 diagrams.)

"Circles of Note: A Continuing Bibliography."  Michael Chorost.  Mufon UFO
Journal, no. 276 (April 1991), pp. 14-17.  (This bibliography, as of April
1991.)

"Theses for a Pre-Paradigm Science: Cereology."  Michael Chorost.  To be
published in Mufon conference proceedings, July 1991.  (Current state of
cereology; further theorizing on language hypothesis.)

"Erasmus Darwin on Cropfield Circles in 1789?: The Fairy-Ring
Connection."  Mark Chorvinsky.  Strange Magazine no. 6 (date unknown;
probably late 1990), p. 32.  (Reprints Darwin's discussion of odd fairy-
rings; it is quite similar to Plott's account--see "Books.")

"UFO Mania Hits Odessa: Circles In Field Create Media Interest."  Carol
Conrow.  The Odessan (Odessa, Missouri), September 20, 1990, pp. 2-3.
(Discussion of Odessa crop circle in a field of sorghum.)

"Circles in Lowe Fields Stir Interest Across Nation."  Carol Conrow.  The
Odessan (Odessa, Missouri), September 27, 1990.

"The Whippingham Ground Effects."  Leonard G. Cramp.  Flying Saucer
Review, vol. 14, no. 3 (May/June 1968).  (Extensive documentation of
straight and circular plant flattenings correlated with a reported UFO
sighting on July 10, 1967, near Newport, Isle of Wight.)

"The Circles: England's Greatest Unsolved Mystery."  Sean Devney.  UFO
Universe, July 1990, pp. 30-59.  (Discussion of possible relationship to
Stonehenge.)

"Around and Around in Circles."  Sally B. Donnelly.  Time Magazine.  Sept.
18, 1989, p.50.  Letters of response in Oct. 9th issue, p. 14.  (Overview of
the phenomenon; three color pictures.)

"Ever-Increasing Circles."  Elisabeth Dunn.  Telegraph Weekend Magazine
(UK), July 8, 1989, pp. 24-28.  (Basic overview; good photographs.)

"Magical Mystery Tour."  John Eccles.  Sussex Express (UK), August 3,
1990.  (Formation on Milton Street Farm, near Wilmington Priory.)

"Logic Flattens 'Corn Circle' Theories."  James Erlichmann.  Guardian (UK),
July 6, 1990, p. 24.  (Reports Robert Cory's theory: "The phenomenon is
caused by the old-fashioned circular irrigation machine.")

"El Enigma Que Cayo Del Cielo."  Hilary Evans.  Ano Cero no. 2 (September
1990), pp. 50-55.

"Mysterious Circles in British Fields Spook the Populace."  Craig Forman.
Wall Street Journal, Aug 28, 1989, p. A1.  (Basic overview.)

"Squaring The Circles of Alien Visitors."  Nigel Fountain.  Guardian (UK),
August 1, 1990, p. 36.  (Humor: "Stuff fluid dynamics, I want some
aliens.")

"Mystery Circles: Myth in the Making."  Paul Fuller.  International UFO
Reporter, May/June 1988, p. 4-8.  (Supports meteorological theory;
presents two eyewitness cases of whirlwinds.)

"Weird Circles Puzzle Britons."  Jacqui Goddard.  The High Plains Journal
(Dodge City, Kansas), September 11, 1989, p. B1.  (Basic overview.)

"Circles Run Rings Around Experts."  Timothy Good. Hampshire Chronicle
(UK), Aug. 4, 1989.  (Basic overview.)

"Circles in the fields inspire talk of UFO's."  Maria Goodavage. USA Today,
November 15, 1990, p. 6A.  (Short discussion of double-dumbbells.)

"Daylight Close Encounter."  Stan Gordon.  MUFON UFO Journal, July 1989,
pp. 18-21.  (Discusses Pennsylvania UFO sighting and related circular
landing trace.)

"Retrospective Investigation of a Possible Trace at Mt. Garnet".  Holly
Goriss and Russell Boundy.  UFO Research Australia Newsletter, March-
April 1981 (Vol 2. No. 2) pp. 4-6.  (Investigates a 1977 ground marking
which looks like a crude quintuplet.)

"Farmer's Amazing Find in Cornfield."  Richard Green.  Chase Post (Lich-
field, UK), Aug. 9, 1990.  (Chorley, Lichfield "cross" formation.)

"Crop Circles Create Rounds of Confusion."  Wendy Grossman.  Skeptical
Inquirer, vol. 14 no. 2 (Winter 1990), pp. 117-118.  ("A genuine modern
mystery.")

"The Year of the Vajra."  John Haddington.  Link Up, Sept-Nov. 1990, p.
4-13.  (Suggests dumbbells are Buddhist symbols; discussion of camera
failures.)

"If It Can't Be Explained, Women Ready To Listen."  Bill Harlan.  Rapid
City Journal (South Dakota), March 10, 1991.  (Report circles in area to
Davina Ryszka of Custer, S.D., [phone].)

"Round and Round They Go: New Crop of Oddities Has British Going in
Circles."  Timothy Harper. The Detroit News, Oct. 2, 1989, p. 3A.  (Basic
overview.)

"Going Round in Circles."  Andrew Hewitt.  Huddersfield Examiner (UK),
August 7, 1990.  (Supports vortex theory, dismisses hoax theory.)

"Taking A Turn Around The Circles."  George Hill.  The Times (UK), July
27, 1990, p. 16.  (Attack on uncritical media approaches to phenomenon.)

"Beware of the Supernatural."  Juliet Hughes.  Wiltshire Gazette (UK),
August 9, 1990.  ("If the crop circles prove to be meteorological phenome-
na, then all the more glory to God.")

"England's Puzzling Crop Circles: The Shape of a Mystery."  J. Antonio
Huneeus.  New York City Tribune, 2 parts: May 3 and 10, 1990 ("Science"
section.)  (Discusses history, and hoax and meteorological theories.)

"A Sighting in Saskatchewan."  J. Allen Hynek and Jacques Vallee, in The
Edge of Reality (Appendix A).  The Henry Regnery Co., 1975.  (Discusses
Canadian UFO sighting and related circular flattened areas.)

"Experts Can't Square Explanations of Circles."  Gregory Jensen.  Wash-
ington Times, July 27, 1990.  Page A1.  (Reports the Blackbird hoax inci-
dent.  Photo of one of the pictograms.)

"Round and Round in Circles."  Dianne Kenny.  Global Link Up, December
1988/Feb. 1989, pp. 4-7.  (Overview, theories.)

"Corn Circles and an Artful Explanation."  Miles Kington.  The Independ-
ent (UK), Sept. 5, 1990, p. 20.  (Humor: "I would surmise that Wiltshire is
a very out-of-town gallery for some galaxy.")

"A Rare Circle for Skeptics."  Marek Kohn.  Weekend Guardian (UK), Aug.
18, 1990, p. 17.  (Skeptical discussion of the phenomenon.)

"The Corn Circles Riddle."  Idina Le Geyt.  Share International vol 9, no.
3 (April 1990), pp. 17-19.  (Focuses on paranormal events associated with
the circles.)

"Spherical Sounds?  Zounds!"  Eugenia Macer-Story.  Mufon UFO Journal,
April 1991, pp. 12-13.

"Strange Sighting at Silbury Hill."  Richard Martin.  Kindred Spirit (UK),
vol 1 no. 5 (Winter 1988-89), pp. 26-27.  (Glowing lights associated with
circles.)

"Mysterious Ring in Field Gets Plenty of Attention."  Tom McCoag.
Chronicle Herald (Halifax, Canada), April 22, 1991, p. A1.  (Early 1991
formation in Amherst, Nova Scotia; 30-foot dia. ring, 12 inches wide.)

"More Puzzling Circles Found in Fields."  Donna McGuire and Eric Adler.
Kansas City Star, September 21, 1990, p A1.  (Map locates seven circles in
Kansas City region; discusses microburst theory.)

"Circles in the corn."  Terence Meaden.  New Scientist, June 23, 1990, 47-
9.  (Argues for the plasma vortex theory.)

"The Beckhampton 'Scroll-Type' Circles, The Beckhampton 'Triangle', and

Strange Attractors."  G. Terence Meaden, Journal of Meteorology (Trow-
bridge, U.K.), October 1990, pp. 317-320.  ("The triangle is nothing other
than an imperfect circle."  Useful for discussion of luminous tubes and
diagram of a scroll.)

"Crop Circles Explained???"  Ernest P. Moyer.  Insight, Sept. 24, 1990;
reprinted in Focus, December 31, 1990, p. 16.  (Translates one double-
dumbbell to mean "Khawah", or "Eve, the life-giver.")

"And Now...Cornfield Circles in Australia!"  Paul Norman.  Flying Saucer
Review, vol. 35, no. 1 (March Quarter, 1990), pp. 7-8.  (Briefly discusses
nine 1980's crop circles in Beulah, Victoria, between 3 and 16 feet in
diameter.)

"And More Cornfield Circles in Canada."  Paul Norman.  Flying Saucer
Review, vol. 35, no. 1 (March Quarter, 1990), pp. 8-9.  (Briefly discusses
1989 circles between 6 and 24 meters in diameter in Manitoba; 2 photos.)

"Crop Revolution 10 Years On."  Ralph Noyes.  Country Life, July 6, 1989,
pp. 102-103.  (Discusses White Crow, 1989's surveillance experiment.)

"Circular Arguments."  Ralph Noyes.  Mufon UFO Journal no. 258 (October
1989), pp. 16-18.  (Discusses books, meteorological theory.)

"Farmers Fear Mysterious Vicious Circle."  Nick Nuttall.  The London
Times, June 23, 1990, p. 4.  (Oxford Polytechnic conference.)

"L10,000 Reward."  Terry O'Hanlon.  Sunday Mirror (UK), July 22, 1990.
(Mirror offers reward for solution of mystery.)

"Mysterious Circles."  Andrew Phillips. Macleans, Aug. 13, 1990, pp. 46-47.
(Short overview.)

"The Hertfordshire 'Mowing Devil' Woodcut: A 17th Century Circle Report?"
Jenny Randles.  UFO Times, no. 5 (January 1990), pp. 30-32.  (Presents a
1678 woodcut showing a devil "mowing" a pattern which Randles suggests
may be a crop circle.)

"Shedding New Light on Mystery Crop Circles."  Ross Reyburn.  Birming-
ham Post (UK), August 16, 1990.  (Interview with Jenny Randles.)

"Scientist Tells How He Squared A Corn Circle."  Amit Roy.  The Sunday
Times (UK), July 1, 1990, p. 4.  (Discussion of meteorological theory.)

"Swirled Landing Trace?"  Carol and Rex Salisberry.  MUFON UFO Journal,
no. 264 (April 1990), pp. 3-7.  (A Gulf Breeze crop circle.)

"Measuring the Circles."  Michael T. Shoemaker.  Strange Magazine no. 6
(date unknown; probably late 1990), pp. 34-35, 56-57.  (Critical review of
current theories.)

"Did They Have Visitors?"  Richard Simon.  Fate, vol. 44, no. 2 (February
1991), pp. 66-69. (46-foot circle in shallow grass, Millersburg, Ohio.)

"The Crop Circle Mystery."  A. Robert Smith.  Venture Inward, Jan/Feb
1991, pp. 12-16.

"Unidentified Farm Object Shakes State."  Wes Smith.  Chicago Tribune,
October 28, 1990, p.1.  Reprinted as "Illinois Aflutter Over Unidentified
Farm Object" in Austin American-Statesman (Austin, Texas), November 14,
1990, p. D10.  (Discusses 1990 crop circle in Milan, Illinois.)

"Field Of Dreams?"  Dava Sobel.  Omni, December 1990, pp. 59-67,121-128.
(Extended overview, slanted toward meteorological theory; many photo-
graphs.)

"Graffiti of the Gods?"  Dennis Stacy.  New Age Journal, Jan/Feb. 1991,
pp. 38-44, 103.  (Extended overview, more balanced than Omni article;
many photographs.)

"River, Lake, and Creek."  Michael Strainic.  Mufon UFO Journal, March
1990, pp. 10-14.  (Circles and UFO reports in British Columbia.)

"Corn Circle Experts in Plea for Action."  Chris Tate.  Salisbury Journal
(UK), July 27, 1989, p. 4.  (British government not discussing the phe-
nomenon.)

"Hoping Some Furry Little Creatures Crop Up."  Calvin Trillin.  Syndicat-
ed newspaper column, August 13, 1990.  (A humorous look at the circles.)

"Did a UFO Visit This Farm?"  Lon Tonneson.  Dakota Farmer, October
1990, p. 9.  (Early Aug. 1990 "reversed question mark" in Leola, S.D.)

"Anatomy of a Corny Hoax."  Simon Trump and Bill Mouland.  Today (UK),
July 26, 1990, pp. 24-25.  (Chronology of the Blackbird hoax.)

"Proposed Physical Measurements of Crop Circles."  Michael Wales.  Mufon
UFO Journal, March 1991, pp. 15, 23.  (Suggestions for instrumented re-
search.)

Multiple stories, multiple authors, Fortean Times, issues 53 (Winter
1989/90) and 55 (sorry, date not known.)  Issue 53 is entirely devoted to
the phenomenon, with articles by Bob Skinner, John Michell, Ralph Noyes,
G. Terence Meaden, Hilary Evans, and Bob Rickard.  Issue 55 contains an
update, pp. 7-13, on 1989-1990 formations outside of Wiltshire.

"Das Ratsel im Roggen." Stern, #38 (Sept/Oct 1989), p. 250-1.

"Ein Phanomen Zieht Kreise." Esotera, December 12, 1989, p. 52-57.

"Los misteriosos y polemicos circulos aparecidos en los campos del Sur de
Inglaterra."  !Hola!, date ?, p. 134-140.

Reviews

"Crop Circles in North America: The NAICCR Report."  Michael Chorost.
Mufon UFO Journal, June 1991.

"A Crop of Circles."  Circular Evidence and The Circles Effect and its
Mysteries.  Derek Elsom.  New Scientist, July 29, 1989, p. 58.

"They Never Yet Could Find My Measure."  The Crop Circle Enigma.
Wendy Grossman.  New Scientist, December 1, 1990, pp. 61-2.

Crop Circles: The Latest Evidence.  Jerrold R. Johnson.  Mufon UFO
Journal, March 1991, pp. 17-18, 23.

The Circles Effect and Its Mysteries, Circular Evidence, and Controversy
of the Circles.  Ralph Noyes.  Journal of the Society for Psychical Re-
search, vol. 56, no. 820 (July 1990), pp. 235-237.

The Crop Circle Enigma.  Dennis Stacy.  Mufon UFO Journal, March 1991,
pp. 16-17.

"Field Events."  Circular Evidence.  Alexander Urquhart.  Times Literary
Supplement, August 4, 1989, p. 845.

Studies

"Circles Investigation."  Colin Andrews.  Released 1986.  19 pp.  Presents
some data for the years 1975-1986, primarily dates and approximate loca-
tions.  Discusses hoax theory and circles' relationship to tramlines.  Cir-
cles Phenomenon Research, 57 Salisbury Road, Andover, Hampshire SP10
2LL, UK.

"A Sample Survey of the Incidence of Geometrically-Shaped Crop Damage."
Paul Fuller.  Copyright 1988.  41 pp.  Commissioned by BUFORA and
TORRO.

"North American Crop Circles and Related Physical Traces in 1990."  Re-
leased February 1991.  18pp.  Conducted by NAICCR (North American Insti-
tute for Crop Circle Research.)  Presents data for 45 North American cases
in 1990, about 30 of which appear to be English-style crop circles.
NAICCR, 649 Silverstone Avenue, Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2V8, Canada.

Television
(My thanks to Richard Benham and Paul Hicks for this information.)

Good Morning America--May 9, July 24, July 25, July 26 (all 1990).  Cover-
age of the Blackbird surveillance operation and the hoax of July 24, 1990.

ABC Evening News--July 19, 1990.  Coverage of double-dumbbells.

CBS Evening News--July 25, 1990.  Coverage of Blackbird hoax.

Unsolved Mysteries--January 31, 1990.  Overview of phenomenon and 1989
events.  Reshown with update on September 12, 1990.

A Current Affair--August 27 and September 14, 1990.  Latter show dis-
cusses Canadian crop circles and interviews Whitley Streiber about them.

Inside Edition--March 5, 1990.

20/20--September 21, 1990; 10-minute segment.


Miscellaneous

The Skyland bulletin board (Asheville, N.C.) has inaugurated an NACIRCLE
conference (#14.)  Contains an online version of Mufon's December 1990
article by Chorost and Andrews, and a copy of this bibliography (which
will be updated regularly.)  Sysop: Michael Havelin.  Telephone (704) 254-
7800.  2400 baud, N-8-1.  No charge.

"Out of the Prairie Comes Proof that a Higher Level of Communication Has
Arrived."  Advertisement for Procomm Plus 2.0 (Datastorm Technologies
Inc.)  Clever depiction of a crop circle shaped like a computer diskette.
Designer: Stephen Monaco.  Ran in computer magazines starting Feb-Mar.
1991.

A recent Led Zeppelin album cover contains a photograph of the first
Alton Barnes double-dumbbell with a zeppelin's shadow over it.

The Koestler Foundation is offering a reward of L5000 for a documented
explanation of the crop circles.  For information, write to The Koestler
Foundation, 484 King's Road, London SW10 OLF.  Include a stamped ad-
dressed envelope.

CD-ROM bibliographic sources are beginning to index articles under "crop
circles.

EOF

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: FILE: A Thesis on the Crop Circles - Michael Chorost - MUFON
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I had posted this a few months back. In light of the recent developments
and discussions on various newsgroups on the crop circles and hoax
explanations, media hype and general queries on the subject, I'm
re-posting it again.

-----begin included text --------------------------------------------




            Thesis for a Pre-Paradigm Science: Cereology

                        Michael Chorost

        Written March 1991; published July 1991

     1.  Cereology as a Pre-Paradigm Science
     2.  Non-Human Intelligence?
     3.  The Problem with "Intelligence"
     4.  A Guess: Are the Crop Circles A Symbol System?
     5.  About Unconvincing Guesses
     6.  The Future Looks Back on the Present: A Hopeful Guess

     Appendix: Colin Andrews' Catalog of Formations, with Annotations by
     Michael Chorost (not included in electronic version)

     I'm writing this paper in March 1991, well before the start of the
next crop circles season.  I anticipate that by July, there will be new
developments I will want to talk about, instead of reading a paper written
months before.  Thus I have not designed this paper to be read aloud.
However, since it is oriented toward grounding cereology as a theoretical
discipline, I am likely to presume many of its points in my talk.  I will be
happy to entertain questions about it in Chicago.

              1.  Cereology as a Pre-Paradigm Science

     In this first of six sections, I want to talk about cereology as a
discipline, and acquaint readers with some of its complexities and prob-
lems.  In the remaining sections, I will explore one particular problem in
detail: are the circles a language?  And if so, how might we figure it out?

     The crop circles phenomenon is much more complex than it appears
at first glance, so it follows that cereology, the study of the phenomenon,
needs to think ways which will encompass that complexity.  So it is impor-
tant to establish right off that the phenomenon has aspects which make
naive "the aliens have started talking to us" theories difficult to uphold.
The evidence leads in contradictory directions.  For example, researchers
(primarily meteorologists) have gathered eyewitness reports of circles from
as far back as 1918, and have found written texts describing what may be
crop circles from as far back as 1590.  One 17th-century text describes
an event in 1633, where a school curate saw, while walking at night in a
Wiltshire field, "innumerable quantitie of pigmies or very small people
dancing rounde and rounde, and singing and making all manner of small
odd noyses."  He heard "a sorte of quick humming noyse all the time" and
"when the sun rose he found himself exactly in the midst of one of these
faery dances."1  Such "quick humming noyses" have been heard in
present-day crop circles,2 and have been captured on tape by the BBC
and other observers.  The curate's story seems to fit, because modern
crop circles are believed to form very rapidly, as this one apparently did,
and the "pigmies...dancing rounde" could have been a 17th-century
observer's way of interpreting a spinning, possibly glowing force field.

     Another text, authored by Robert Plott in 1686, discusses an appar-
ently similar event in 1590 and theorizes that such artifacts are made by
lightning.  An illustration theorizes that cone-shaped "lightning strikes"
are responsible for the rings and, astonishingly, rings containing squares.
David J. Reynolds notes that Plott describes "'imperfect segments', rings
within rings, squares (?!), 'Semicircles, Quadrants and Sextants' being
formed by combinations of multiple strokes, differing angles of descent
and variations in lightning strength across a stroke" (p. 348, italics in
originals.)3  Unfortunately, Plott does not give enough information to make
it clear whether he is observing "fairy rings", which are fungal infections
in the soil which blight plants in slowly spreading circular areas, or crop
circles.  In fact, much of his discussion points away from crop circles.
Not once does he mention that the plants are flattened in spiral patterns,
nor does he talk about the intricate braiding often seen in crop circles.
And when he digs under one formation, he discovers that the soil "was
much looser and dryer than ordinary, and the parts interspersed with a
white hoar or vinew much like that in mouldy bread, of a musty rancid
smell."4  This is a finding entirely consistent with fairy rings.  And yet,
as Reynolds notes, Plott is quite explicit about the existence of non-circu-
lar formations like quadrants and hollow squares, going so far as to
provide diagrams of them.  To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a
fairy square.  Thus we cannot eliminate the possibility that Plott saw what
we think of as crop circles.  Of course, it's also possible that he saw
something which was neither fairy rings nor crop circles, but something
else altogether.

     Plott's discussion anticipates parts of the modern debate with
remarkable fidelity.  He devotes considerable attention to rumors of pos-
sessed satanic dancers, but ultimately concludes that such "hoaxes" could
only account for a particular subset of the phenomenon: "If I must needs
allow [dancers] to cause some few of these Rings, I must also restrain
them to those of the first kind, that are bare at many places like a path-
way; for to both the others more natural causes may be probably as-
signed" (14.)  It appears that Plott anticipated the meteorological theory
by roughly 300 years.

     These observations have to make any alien-intelligence theorist stop
and think.  Plott talks about events which happened in 1590.  The
curate's anomalous sighting happened a decade after the publication of
Shakespeare's First Folio.  If they are true crop circles, and if they're by
aliens who have been trying to get our attention for four centuries, there
is at least one species in the galaxy which is remarkably dumb (and it's
not necessarily us.)  The finders of these texts subscribe to the meteoro-
logical theory, so they interpret the reports as evidence of a naturally
occurring plasma-vortex phenomenon.  The reader may not accept that
theory, but whatever he or she does accept has to take these astonishing
writings into account.

     The 17th-century texts are not the only example of fractious data.
For every eyewitness report of a glowing object or alien spacecraft
making a crop circle at night, there is another eyewitness report of a
violent wind which flattens out a circle in broad daylight.5  And there are
now numerous articles claiming that the phenomenon is generated by
"earth energies" which determine the location and shape of each crop
circle.  The theory relies on dowsing results.  Nonsense?  Possibly; but
Terence Meaden, the arch-enemy of intelligence-oriented theories, has
begun using dowsing himself, theorizing that "the metal-rod movement of
the dowser may be related to a reaction to the minor changes in the local
magnetic field of the soil induced by the plasma vortices and their fast-
spinning fields."6  Whatever the validity of such claims (and they need to
be tested!), they add further complications to cereology.

     I hope these examples have served to shred the belief that all the
evidence points in one direction.  Hoax theorists point to the Bratton
hoax, an embarrassing but quickly detected hoax perpetuated on one of
1990's surveillance groups; alien-intelligence theorists point to eyewitness
reports and the humming noises; vortex theorists point to other eyewit-
ness reports, and the humming noises; earth-energy theorists point to
dowsing results, and the humming noises; and everyone points to every-
one else as terrible examples of interpretation of data.

     So we have a complex situation.  That's nothing new; it's life.  But
there is an illuminating way to describe the kind of complexity that reigns
now.  I borrow from Thomas Kuhn's well-known work The Structure of
Scientific Revolutions7 in suggesting that cereology is a pre-paradigm
science.  Kuhn defines a "paradigm" as an "implicit body of intertwined
theoretical and methodological belief that permits selection, evaluation, and
criticism" (17).  More briefly, a paradigm is a way of thinking which
unifies a scientific discipline.  So far, that's exactly what cereology lacks.
It consists of a mass of disparate observations and a few theories, none
of which explain very much.  The absence of a paradigm is beautifully
illustrated by two very different interpretations of what may be an eye-
witness report of a quintuplet formation being made.  On July 13, 1988,
according to Circular Evidence, a woman saw "a large, golden, disc-shaped
object within [a] cloud" which emitted "a bright white parallel beam...from
the bottom of the disc at an angle of roughly 65o [which] shone across
the sky towards Silbury Hill" (p. 115.)  Delgado and Andrews imply that
an alien spacecraft used an energy beam to inscribe the formation.
Terence Meaden, on the other hand, writes, "On 13th July 1988, a lady
was eyewitness to a hollow pencil-shaped tube (not a beam) of light which
reached from cloud to ground for an observed period of a couple of
minutes.  A huge volume of the cloud, which was at 4000 feet, appeared
electrified."8  One event, one witness; two interpreters, two "facts"; no
paradigm.

     So how are cereologists to conduct pre-paradigm science?  Kuhn
writes, "In the absences of a paradigm or some candidate for a paradigm,
all of the facts that could possibly pertain...are likely to seem equally
relevant.  As a result, fact-gathering is a far more nearly random activity
than the one that subsequent scientific development makes familiar." (15)
This accurately describes how matters stand as of this writing.  The
sensible thing to do is to repeat history, i.e. gather as many observations
as possible, omnivorously, excluding nothing.  There should be routine
data collection with IR cameras, geiger counters, magnetometers, plant DNA
assays, weather stations, and so on.  Good photos and accurate measure-
ments need to be taken; even dowsing results and unusual physical sensa-
tions should be assiduously recorded.  And everything should be pub-
lished.  Some sets of observations may not be deemed relevant in the
future--that is the risk of pre-paradigm science--but we owe it to future
researchers and historians to bequeath them as rich a storehouse of data
as we can.

     We could be doing better on this score.  As of this writing, meas-
urements and positional data of both English and North American forma-
tions are both scarce and of uneven quality.  Instrumental experiments
are rarely performed.  In addition, poor organization and political battles
impede the release of what data does exist.  Michael Green is sadly right
when he notes that "inordinate professional jealousy and commercial rival-
ry...has unfortunately marked the study of the subject to date, and has
led to a hoarding of essential information."9  For example, the meteorolo-
gists are sitting on their data, partly because they're unwilling to let
their opponents have it.  The alien-intelligence theorists are also sitting
on their data, partly because they feel reluctant to give away the product
of many hours of hard work.  Neither concern is justified.  Researchers
are responsible only for the quality of their data, not for what others do
with it.  It seems to me that anybody who thinks his data will help his
opponents more than it will help him is in an unenviable position, as far
as his theory is concerned.  And to sit on data is effectively to waste the
work that went into its collection.  The CCCS (Centre for Crop Circle
Studies) is trying to overcome these problems, and we should wish them
the best of luck.  Steady but polite pressure from Americans may help,
too.

     Two things are necessary, over and above performing the research:
a smoothly functioning network funneling data toward publication, and the
attitude that information should be shared with the community to promote
further research.  Secrecy and mercantile considerations serve only to
gum up the works, especially at this fragile stage.  It would be best if
history could record that information was freely and generously shared in
these difficult early days.  A 1991 report by Chris Rutkowski and other
members of the NAICCR (North American Institute for Crop Circles Re-
search) beautifully exemplifies this attitude.  It lists 46 cases of ground
markings in 1990, about thirty of which appear to be English-style crop
circles.  It provides formation types, lay rotations, dates, sizes, and
approximate locations.  (I am now writing a review of it, which I anticipate
will appear in the May 1991 issue of the Mufon UFO Journal.)  I hope
other cereologists will consider its example well.

     After obtaining data, cereologists will just have to theorize as
carefully and responsibly as they can, and dare to be wrong.  Francis
Bacon writes, "Truth emerges more readily from error than from confu-
sion."10  This maxim strikes me with particular force when I contemplate
the meteorologists' corpus of research.  I think its basic thesis is in
error, yet even the few the scraps of data the meteorologists publish are
more useful than the typically haphazard observations offered by people
whom I think are closer to the mark.  Organized error can be re-organ-
ized into truth.

                   2.  Non-Human Intelligence?

     2001: A Space Odyssey seems less science-fictional than it did in
1968, now that artificial constructions of an anomalous nature are appear-
ing repeatedly around the world.  Most of the major researchers in cere-
ology are convinced that human beings are not making them, because they
cannot figure out what human device, however sophisticated, could pro-
duce all of the observed effects and remain undetected for so long.  I am
inclined to agree with them, though I would add that it is always risky to
underestimate the ingenuity of our own species.  I suspect that the
possibility of a fabulously intricate hoax, however slight, keeps a lot of
cereologists awake at nights.  Perhaps worrying about the hoax theory is
one way of worrying about the implications of the circles not being hoax-
es.

     Some researchers, primarily the meteorologists, believe that the
circles are produced by a natural phenomenon that we have only now
begun to notice.  Many people find this unconvincing.  Nature can indeed
produce fabulously intricate structures, like us, but I have never seen it
do so both overnight and on such a vast scale.  And I find it difficult to
ascribe the rapidly increasing complexity of the shapes to natural forces,
which typically change slowly when they change at all.

     By elimination, I have become sympathetic to non-human intelligence
theories--as I suspect many of my readers will be also.  There is some
slight anecdotal evidence for such theories; NAICCR's report on ground
markings notes, for instance, that 4 of its 46 listed cases have UFO sight-
ings associated with them.  Anecdotal evidence is notoriously difficult to
use, however, so I will not appeal to it in my analysis.

     Let us suppose--it is still more or less an outright guess--that the
crop circles are the products of a non-human intelligence, and explore the
implications of that thesis.  It will be fun to do so, if nothing else.  The
rest of this essay will be devoted to that undertaking.

     It is possible, as I have remarked elsewhere,11 that the formations
are the visible side-effect of some deliberately directed physical process,
the way tire tracks and footprints are.  At present, there is virtually
nothing that can be said about this important theory.  Discussion only
becomes possible when one hypothesizes that the formations are supposed
to mean something, either to their creators or to ourselves.  And it is to
this possibility that I will devote most of my attention.

     If we want to try to decode the circles, we are faced with gigantic
problems at the very outset.  Typically, when we receive messages from
human intelligences, we have some amount of shared background to draw
upon in decoding them.  Shared language is obviously the most useful
background; but if that is absent, there are usually others, such as
shared physical environment, shared needs, shared knowledge of history,
shared interests, shared physiologies.  Not knowing Arabic, I can still
guess that an Arab with me in a souk is hungry if he looks at me and
mimics the act of eating.

     But we may share nothing with an alien intelligence.  At any rate,
we can presume nothing.12  We cannot presume similar sensory equipment
or physical needs; we cannot presume similar evolutionary conditions; we
cannot even presume corporeal bodies or a sense of self.  I could go on
and on about the radical uncertainty involved.  To cut a long discussion
short, it comes down to this: we must guess, just plain guess, that they
are like us in some ways, and proceed accordingly.  In writing about
decoding a hypothetical alien message, Lewis White Beck argues that "we
must guess that it is a message, guess what it says, and then try to see
if the signal can convey that message."13  For example, we could guess
that the dimensions of the circles encode mathematical relationships such
as pi and e, and search to see if such numbers can be found in a sys-
tematic way.  Or we could guess that certain logical relationships are
being implied, and search for the most basic ones, such as transitivity
and hierarchy.  Or it could be posited that the spatial locations of the
circles relative to each other are related to spatial distances elsewhere,
such as between stars.  The chances of picking the wrong message are
high, but Bacon's dictum about truth still applies.

                3.  The Problem with "Intelligence"

     I will dare to be wrong later in this essay, but I want to make a
remark about "intelligence" first.  The debate over the crop circles can
all too easily polarize into two camps, intelligent versus non-intelligent
causation.  But the entire debate could be off the mark.  The
phenomenon's cause may not be "blind nature", but it may not be intelli-
gence the way we know it, either.  If it's aliens, they might be far smart-
er than us in some ways, but dumb as bricks in others.  Or suppose the
circlemaker is Gaia--an intelligence resulting from complex interactions in
the biosphere of the planet?  Or, the combined psychic interactions of the
human race?  Or a natural phenomenon which is being manipulated by
such psychic interactions?  Farfetched ideas, to be sure, but so is the
phenomenon.  As my colleague Dennis Stacy has repeatedly warned me in
correspondence, thinking along rigid "p or not-p" lines can overlook
fruitful areas of inquiry.  An arrow flying in a straight line can still miss
the target.

     Also, it is well to remember that all of the words denoting "intelli-
gent beings" in English were designed to refer to exactly one species:
Homo sapiens of Earth.  All English words denoting "intelligent non-human
beings" are negatives: "alien" is rooted in the Sanskrit antara, which
means merely "other", and "extra-terrestrial" means "not from Earth."  In
terms of thinking about alien intelligence, our language is as limited as
the counting system which calls all quantities above five "many."

     However, I will guess an intelligence not altogether different from
ours, simply because it is the easiest for us to think about.  It is as
reasonable a place to start as any.

     Of course, the problem of decoding would still be daunting.  To
manage it, we can make more guesses: perhaps the circlemakers have
already observed us and know something about us.  They may have
guessed that our minds will leap to certain guesses, and attempted to play
to our predilections.  (Such double-guessing could someday tell us quite a
bit about them.)  As Cipher A. Deavours points out, aliens ought to have
some interest in developing codes designed to reveal rather than conceal
information.14  Decoding could be orders of magnitude easier if the cir-
clemakers have taken our ways of decoding into account.  We may be
seeing our humanness being filtered through alien consciousness and
played back at us.

     Of course, the simplest way of communicating with us would have
been to use our own symbols, or to use something readily comprehensible
to us, like groups of circles corresponding to the prime numbers.  The
fact that we have not readily understood the circles suggests a number of
possibilities: we have not really tried yet; there is no message; there is a
message, but one whose content is not directed at us; the entities are so
profoundly different from us that they cannot figure out what we would
find easily accessible; they have more subtle motives than straightforward
communication; they have decided to dispense with easy formalities and
want us to think hard, perhaps with the implied lure that the reward will
be worth the effort.  I find the first the most preferable, since so little
has been done by way of attempts at decoding.  In any case, it's reason-
able to guess that something complex and multileveled is either happening
or being communicated.

         4.  A Guess: Are the Crop Circles A Symbol System?

     All this said, I will now risk being wrong in a major way.  I will
argue that we are indeed looking at a symbol system.  The shapes seem to
have a certain "symbolicity" (see Colin Andrews' catalog, Appendix I.) I
don't necessarily mean that they are a phonetic alphabet like English; I
mean something more like pictorial codes or schematics.  However, I shall
have to be rather vague about what I mean by the word "symbol."  The
most specific definition I can offer is "a mark which means something to a
group of people, by convention."  For there can be many different kinds
of symbols.  A symbol can be a mark with exactly one referent; for exam-
ple, there is a certain schematic which signifies exactly one kind of tran-
sistor.  Or it can be a mark amenable to different interpretations, like the
color red in the Soviet flag (it means revolutionary political possibilities
to some, raw tyranny to others.)  Or it can be a mark which functions in
a language, meaning little in itself but contributing to a total meaning.
For example, the physical mark "key" contributes in a certain way to the
sentence "Where are my car keys?" and in a different way to "The key to
the treasure is there."  It seems to me that the circles could be symbols
in any of these ways (and there are many more possible ways.)  I tend to
gravitate toward the third, language-oriented kind of symbolicity, but I
don't wish to exclude the others.  My intention is to spark a rich debate
by opening up possibilities, not to truncate debate by closing them off.

     To a lot of people, the formations "feel" like a symbol system.  And
they do have broad structural elements in common with human symbol
systems (which, it must be pointed out, may not be much of a basis for
comparison.)  Like many human symbol systems, they can be broken down
into certain recurring basic shapes--the circle the line, the rectangle, the
ring, the curved arc, and so on.  These elements are their "strokes."  If
the formations are complex, they are complex by the accumulation of pre-
existing elements, not the creation of new elements (though each summer
does bring some new elements.)

     Like human symbol systems, the crop circles present enough variety
to suggest the possibility of reference to a large number of objects or
ideas.  If we saw only three formations repeated over and over, we would
probably be more inclined to think them artistic or cultural icons, or
natural artifacts, rather than members of a linguistic or representational
system.

     Like human symbols, their variety remains within limits; of 1990's
numerous single and double dumbbells, no two are alike, but all are
recognizably part of a class.  It's a bit like the way the English letters
b,d,p,q,c, and o form a recognizable class.  The Egyptian hieroglyph for
"bird" would stick out and look very strange in that class, and indeed it
would not belong anywhere in the alphabet.  As would the letter "b" look
very odd, if claimed to be a Chinese ideogram.

     The "variety within limits" argument is important for another rea-
son.  The appearance of "scrolls", rectangles, and triangles suggests that
there is no physical limitation to the kind of shapes that can be created.
If a short rectangle can be made, so can long ones to form lines, and the
scrolls suggest that irregular lines can be drawn "freehand", as it were.
The fact that the formations seem to vary within boundaries seems to
suggest a defined and ordered system.

     Of course, there are problems with the argument, such as that the
formations bear little obvious spatial relationship to each other the way
human symbols usually do.  One is also hard-pressed to group the weirdly
curvy "scroll" formations as belonging to the same system as the highly
angular double-dumbbells; perhaps the scrolls really are mistakes or
doodles.  Or perhaps the only message being conveyed is "Watch this
space, and be here next summer."  Humorists have also suggested alien
art galleries and alien advertising.  My guesses may more wrong than I
can imagine.  But for all that, I think it is not crazy to guess that we are
looking at a symbol system, not random squiggles.

     It just may be possible to start grouping 1990's new formations into
classes.  Such attempts are highly arbitrary by their nature, conditioned
by the viewer's predispositions (as are readings of Rorschach inkblots),
but the attempt is worth making.  It would be interesting to see what
groupings other people make.  Colin Andrews' catalog (see Appendix A)
lists 65 formation types (one is a known hoax, so I don't count it.)  I can
derive the following classes from studying Colin's catalogue:

     (Numbers refer to the formation number in the catalog)

     Single dumbbells (21, 22, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 33, 36, 55)
     Double-dumbbells (34, 35, 54)
     Thetas (40, 41, 49, 50)
     Plain circles with satellites (3, 5, 6, 17, 43, 52)
     Ringed circles (10, 19, 20, 23, 24, 25, 38, 64)
     Saturns (7, 8, 11, 32, 37, 46)
     Rings (44)
     Scrolls (45, 48, 65)
     Triangles (47, 63)
     Sports (unique formations, i.e. 26, 39, 53, 58, 59, 62)

To explain my nomenclature: I call the "thetas" so because their split
central circle reminds me of the Greek letter "O" (I imply no actual con-
nection to Greek.)  The "saturns" remind me of Saturn with its moons
(again, no connection to the planet implied, though it's not impossible that
there be one.)  I take the name "scroll" from The Crop Circle Enigma
(which shows pictures of them on p. 156.)  I name the "sports" so be-
cause a "sport" in biology is a unique object.

     Interestingly enough, it may be that the formation types are also
roughly contiguous in space.  The hand-drawn map reproduced in Issue 2
of The Cereologist (p. 3) shows that all three double-dumbbells appeared
quite close to each other, in fact within an area five kilometers long and
two kilometers wide, just north of Alton Barnes.  At least six of the ten
single dumbbells appeared in the Longwood Estate area, just southwest of
Winchester.  The four thetas may fall in a line (it will take much better
data to verify this.)  Two of the scrolls are quite close to each other, at
Beckhampton.

     The spatial-relationships idea is being pursued vigorously by
Harvey Lunenfeld of East Northport, New York.  We've been trying to
obtain positional data for as many of the formations as possible, in order
to create a computerized database.  Harvey and his son Randy are now
configuring sophisticated mapping software which will facilitate the search
for spatial relationships, and also for correlations with other types of
data.  So far we've been obtaining our positional data from thumbnail
deduction from photographs and other available evidence.  The job will
become much easier once we gain access to satellite imagery good enough
to show exactly where the formations are.  Access to some of the English
databases would also help greatly, of course.

     Allow me to call attention to the fact that certain elements recur in
different contexts.  The triangle's "F" is much like the shapes jutting out
from all three double dumbbells.  (Could it be significant that none of the
single dumbbells have such shapes?)  The other triangle's flanking shapes
are very much like the double rectangles on many of the single dumbbells
(and, note, none of the double dumbbells.)  One simple circle has a three-
fingered shape jutting out of it which looks almost exactly like the one
attached to the Allington Down (more precisely, East Kennett) double
dumbbell.  Some of the single dumbbells and the theta formations have
partial arcs as components.  The saturns are a combination of plain circles
with satellites and ringed circles.  This evident combination and recombi-
nation of elements makes it plausible to suppose that there is some form
of "grammar" ruling their placement.

     It may be possible to work out the properties of the grammar
without understanding the meaning of the symbols.  One way to do this is
to compare groups of symbols to each other, isolating consistent statistical
similarities and differences.  For example, if the ratios of the areas of the
two circles in single dumbells compares in some consistent way to the
ratios of the lengths of the forks to their circles, that might indicate a
meaningful element of language.  This particular example is mathematically
oriented, but other strategies are feasible, too: one could compare the
spatial orientation of the thetas to that of all of the other groups, or
compare the length of formations to their compass orientations.  It is an
encouraging fact that cryptographers are frequently able to decode
messages whose plaintext is written in a language they do not know very
well.  Deavours writes,

          It is of interest that codes can often be solved where
          the underlying language of the plaintext is not known
          for certain.  One can also gain an immense knowledge of
          the structure and character of a communication without
          understanding a single thought expressed therein.  For
          intergalactic communication, this offers much hope that
          we may succeed in deciphering what is received (203-
          204.)

As evidence that meaning is not crucial to decipherment, Deavours men-
tions that

          the great French cryptanalyst, Georges Painvain, of
          World War I fame, solved many complex ciphers of the
          German General Staff but possessed so little knowledge
          of German that he was unable to translate the deci-
          phered text after solution (209).

Not knowing the language need not impede understanding its shape and
general characteristics.  Such research could yield one great practical
benefit down the road: upon receiving a Rosetta Stone, we would then be
able to learn and read the language that much more quickly, perhaps well
enough to begin using it ourselves.  In the touchy and uncertain days
immediately following alien contact, such an advantage might be very
welcome indeed.  This makes it all the more imperative to facilitate re-
search with an effective network of data distribution.

     Figuring out what the grammar's shapes represent (if grammar it is,
of course) will be tough, because the formations appear to lack all social
context.  There is no "Rosetta Stone" permitting them to be compared to a
known symbol system; there are no objects helpfully put next to them to
show what they depict or schematize; there are no appreciative alien enti-
ties in view admiring them as art.  Quite the contrary, they are placed
wordlessly (so to speak) on this planet's largest equivalent of a blank,
lined sheet of paper.  But we should try.  We can attempt to restore the
context, or at least make one.  Our guesses might be correct.

     But a worrying philosophical issue intrudes here.  Let us say we
guess a message--a meaning--and find out that the circles transmit it.
Can we be sure that we have truly decoded the circles?  Perhaps not.
Humans are infinitely resourceful at seeing patterns that are not there.
Edward R. Tufte, in his engaging book "Envisioning Information", reprints
a picture of a rock in southern Massachusetts which is covered with
ancient hieroglyphs.15  Next to the picture he reproduces ten hand-drawn
sketches of the markings, made between 1680 and 1854.  Not only are the
sketches strikingly different, but different scholars have triumphantly
adduced totally different origins for the glyphs: Scythian, Phoenician,
Runic, Viking, and Algonquin, to name a few.  Tufte cheerfully damns this
as "scholarship of wishful thinking" (73).  I am not sure if there is any
way to solve the problem, other than asking the circlemakers what they
mean (and even that might not help as much as we think it would.)  My
reaction is just to say, "Let us see what we can guess and find, then see
which guess convinces the most people, and deal with the philosophical
problems as they arise."

     The lack of context is significant in another way.  It is a truism
that symbols mean something only in a social context.  If these shapes
have a concrete and socially-based meaning to their creators, how are
they changed by being engraved on fields on another planet?  Suppose
that the magnificent Fawley Down pictogram (a "theta" formation) refers to
a Rigellian action which human physiologies cannot duplicate?  If we know
nothing of Rigellian physiology, we'll never figure that out, will we?  And,
more importantly, how does the meaning of the symbol change when it is
stamped, without context or explanation, in a field of wheat near Winches-
ter, England?  What does the symbol mean at that particular place and
time, if anything?   Not, I feel sure, just to tell us what Rigellians do.
What would a glowing Coca-Cola advertisement mean in a Brazilian rainfor-
est where Coke is not available?  Anything but "Buy Coke."  Perhaps it
would be (meant as, read as) an ironic statement on the extravagance of
modern advertising.  But if a picture of that advertisement in the rainfor-
est was reproduced as an advertisement by Coke, the sign would again
mean "Buy Coke"--but also something more, like "Coke is, or should be,
available literally everywhere."  Meaning is an event with multiple layers,
most if not all of which are radically and subtly dependent on context.

     It is attractive to suppose that the formations are a sort of logical
puzzle, like an IQ test.  This would seem to make their context internal
rather than external; the shapes would define their own context.  But this
argument is misleading.  If one was presented with an IQ test without
knowing what it was, or being shown how to work with the shapes pre-
sented, it would be meaningless.  The very idea of the logical puzzle is
socially constructed.  The Soviet psychologist A. R. Luria has shown that
it is almost impossible to convey the idea of the syllogism to normally
intelligent but nonliterate people.  When Russian peasants were given the
syllogistic puzzle In the Far North, where there is snow, all bears are
white.  Novaya Zembla is in the Far North and there is always snow there.
What color are the bears?, a typical response was, "I don't know.  I've
seen a black bear.  I've never seen any others.  Each locality has its own
animals."  From their point of view, it was absurd to try to figure out the
color of bears with logic, since bear coats are something you see, not
deduce.16  The ideas of the logical puzzle and the transitive relationship
are evidently learned, not inherent to human intelligence.  If there is a
logical pattern, it would be nothing simple to figure out, for the first
thing we would have to do is figure out what has to be figured out.  And
that would almost certainly require the discovery of some external context,
like an alien culture's way of thinking and reasoning.  Unless, of course,
the circlemakers have tried to use some human mode of reasoning.

     There are an enormous number of possibilities.  A reading of the
circles will not come easily.  A lot will depend on the ability to make
inspired guesses, and convince other people that they are right.  The
rest will depend on good data, good analytical tools, and vast amounts of
hard work.  But the potential payoff ought to make any linguist salivate.
The field has ample room for the next Chompollon.

                 5.  About Unconvincing Guesses

     Having put forward a guess (of a sort), let me say something about
unconvincing guesses.  I have seen quite a few articles purporting to
decode individual formations to reveal some definite meaning, like "Kha-
wah" ("life giver")17 or "This is a dangerous place to camp."18  The
typical move in such guesses is to declare that the formation contains
letters in an ancient language or elements from an obscure symbol system,
and decode it by translating those letters/elements into English.  I find
these kinds of guesses uniformly unconvincing.  If you compare the cir-
cles to any language or symbol system, you'll score a number of hits.
Compare them to English, and you'll find F's, O's, C's, Q's, I's, M's, and
W's.  Compare them to American traffic symbols, and you can find resem-
blances to stoplights (i.e. three circles in a row), dashed lines on the
road, and "no entry" signs.  This second example is deliberately ludi-
crous, but it illustrates the "Rorschach" quality of the phenomenon: one
can see almost anything in it.  Simple resemblance alone, let alone highly
approximate resemblance, is a very shaky ground for decoding.

     It is also very common for such arguments to ignore the fact that
the supposed "letters" and 'symbols" are stuck onto unrelated shapes,
and otherwise distorted and garbled.  It doesn't make sense to use an
alphabet or symbol system by making it nearly unrecognizable.  Finding a
highly resemblant set of symbols could change the whole game, but to my
knowledge, no one has accomplished this, not even Michael Green in his
ambitious attempt to link the circles to designs on ancient Roman and
Celtic stone carvings.19  Green finds several interesting similarities
between ancient carvings and modern crop circles, but it's not enough to
establish a meaningful link, since hundreds of formations have appeared
in the last few years, and there are hundreds of Roman/Celtic shapes
which look nothing like any known crop circle.  More problematically, the
Roman/Celtic shapes are typically combinations of circles, so the probabili-
ty of a few rough matches by pure chance is very high.  And, of course,
even if the Celts were imitating crop circles seen thousands of years ago,
their interpretations of them ("cosmic egg", "sun god", etc.) cannot be
known to be the same as the intentions of the entities who generated
them.  They could be completely off the mark, as far as the circlemakers
are concerned.  The historical link would be exciting and valuable if
Green could establish it more strongly, but it would be of little direct
assistance in interpretative efforts.

     In sum, most would-be "decoders" look at a few formations, ignoring
all the rest; they make no attempt to resolve diverse shapes into a sys-
tem; they fail to consider disconfirming evidence.  Instead, they Rorschach
their theories into a small part of the phenomenon, and find exactly what
they want to find.

     Of course, no one can avoid Rorschaching into the circles.  I myself
have read my hopes, beliefs, and professional biases into them.  But one
must at least try to consider the whole phenomenon and think about it
systematically.  Error may then be productive error.  Anything else is
only confusion.

      6.  The Future Looks Back on the Present: A Hopeful Guess

     There is far more that could be said, but I am probably pushing
the limits of Mufon's printing budget with a paper of this size, and the
patience of my readers as well.  I will close, then, by offering a hopeful
look at the present from the viewpoint of the future.  Someday, there may
be a paradigm which explains the crop circles to everybody's satisfaction.
Then it will be difficult for people to see this strange and beautiful
phenomenon any other way.  But historians will be fascinated by the pre-
paradigm writings of this era.  To them our ways of seeing will look
untutored and naive, but also fresh and new--the words of children
seeing things for the first time.  Despite their superior knowledge, they
may envy us, we who have the extraordinary opportunity of first sight.
Naivete is a rare gift.  Let us use it well.




Notes

(1) R.M. Skinner, "A Seventeenth-Century Report of an Encounter with an
Ionized Vortex?"  Journal of Meteorology, November 1990, p. 346.  The
source is John Aubrey's Natural History of Wiltshire (publication date not
given.)

(2) John Haddington reports hearing and recording "a strange and beauti-
ful trilling noise" in a circle at Bishops Canning, 1990.  See his "The
Wansdyke Watch", The Cereologist, issue 1 (Summer 1990), p. 15.

(3) David J. Reynolds, "Possibility of a Crop Circle from 1590."  Journal of
Meteorology, November 1990, pp. 347-352.  The text is Robert Plott's The
Natural History of Stafford-shire, Oxford, 1686.

(4) Plott, p. 15 (italics in original.)  I am grateful to Carl Carpenter for
sending me a xerox of the relevant chapter of the book, pages 7-21.

(5) For examples of the former, see Delgado and Andrews' Circular Evidence
(Bloomsbury Press, 1989), pp. 179-190.  For examples of the latter, see
Terence Meaden, The Circles Effect and its Mysteries (Artetech, 1989)
especially chapter 2.

(6) Proceedings of the First International Conference on the Circles Effect
(held at Oxford Polytechnic, June 23, 1990), p. 50.  This has been reprint-
ed as Circles From the Sky.  The April 1991 issue of the Mufon UFO
Journal contains a large bibliography which includes ordering information
for most of the books cited in this paper.

(7) University of Chicago Press, 1962.

(8) Proceedings, p. 39.  The event is also discussed in The Circles Effect
and its Mysteries, p. 55.

(9) Michael Green, "The Rings of Time: The Symbolism of the Crop Circles."
In The Crop Circle Enigma (Gateway Books, 1990, ed. Ralph Noyes) p. 139.

(10) Quoted in Kuhn, p. 18.

(11)  Michael Chorost and Colin Andrews, "The Summer 1990 Crop Circles",
Mufon UFO Journal, December 1990, pp. 3-14.

(12)  Some people have tried to define what we can presume.  Gregory
Benford: "The most extreme view one can take is to reject any category of
knowledge of the alien, declaring them all to be inherently anthropomor-
phic or anthropocentric, and flatly declare that the alien is fundamentally
unknowable" (26).  Benford later goes on to suggest, though, that we may
be able to expand our categories to include alien ways of knowing: "We
can make ourselves greater.  We can ingest the alien" (27).  ("Aliens and
Unknowability: A Scientist's Perspective", in Starship, vol. 43, Winter-
Spring 1982-3, pp. 25-27.)  On the other hand, Marvin Minsky argues that
alien intelligence is likely to resemble ours, because "every evolving intel-
ligence will eventually encounter certain very special ideas--e.g. about
arithmetic, causal reasoning, and economics--because these particular ideas
are very much simpler than other ideas with similar uses" (127).  (Byte,
April 1985, pp. 127-138.)  Speculation is useful for defining the problem,
but it's rather like Robinson Crusoe trying to do sociology.

(13) Lewis White Beck, "Extraterrestrial Intelligent Life."  In Extraterrestri-
als: Science and Alien Intelligence, edited by Edward Regis, Jr.  Cam-
bridge University Press, 1985.

(14) Cipher A. Deavours, "Extraterrestrial Communication: A Cryptologic
Perspective", in Extraterrestrials: Science and Alien Intelligence. pp. 201-
214.  (Interestingly enough, the author's name is not a joke.)

(15) Edward R. Tufte, Envisioning Information.  Graphics Press, Cheshire,
Connecticut, 1990.

(16) Luria's finding is discussed in Walter J. Ong, Orality and Literacy: The
Technologizing of the Word (New York: Methuen, 1982), pp. 52-53.

(17) Letter by Ernest P. Moyer, reprinted in Focus (Dec. 31, 1990), p. 16.

(18) Jon Erik Beckjord, broadside sheet, February 1991.

(19) Michael Green, "The Rings of Time: The Symbolism of the Crop Circles."
In The Crop Circles Enigma, Gateway Books, 1990, pp. 137-171.




About the Author

Michael Chorost was educated at Brown and the University of Texas at
Austin, and is now at Duke, working toward his Ph.D. in Renaissance liter-
ature and philosophy of language.  His first article on the subject, "The
Summer 1990 Crop Circles", was coauthored with Colin Andrews and was
published in December 1990's Mufon UFO Journal.  He has also authored
a bibliography of the phenomenon.

The author may be contacted at:

    North American Circle
    P.O. Box 61144
    Durham, NC 27705-1144


EOF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: File: Don Ecker/Lars Hansson expose on Cooper,Lear pt1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Sep 91 03:46:43 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 655
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2060 alt.conspiracy:7180 sci.skeptic:15181


The following are a compilation of message traffic that was introduced
on the ASK_UFO echo on the ParaNet UFO network by contributing editor, Don Ecker
of UFO MAGAZINE. This file is for anyone that has ever read any materials
by Milton William Cooper or John Lear and made you _wonder_ about
these individuals. Incidentally, Don Ecker did a 2 part series last
year called "The Whistleblowers" that featured a thorough investigation
of Bill Cooper and did a wonderful job, in my opinion. :-)

This is part 1 of 2 parts.



-------- Expose part 1 ----------------------------------------------


Message #7181 - ASK_UFO
   Date : 30-Aug-91  0:32
   From : Don Ecker
     To : ALL
Subject : EXPOSE

The following message may seem a bit obtuse at first, but please
read on for a moment and you will catch what is going on.

In my job as Director of Research for UFO Magazine, I get to meet
sometimes strange but also very interesting people. Also as
Director, I oft times get documents, books, and papers for the mag
that I can peruse before most of the public. Also, having been
involved with ParaNet since the end of 1987 the beginning of 1988,
I have seen a lot happen in the field and with ParaNet both good
and bad. Late in 1987 Jim Speiser, the founder of ParaNet was at
the helm as Director. I was Co-Sysop with the old ParaNet RHO, now
no longer in service. In late December 1987, Jim Speiser received
the now famous, or perhaps more to the point, infamous *LEAR.DOC*
that set parts of the UFO field on fire. For any of you that were
not around then, for months and finally years, and now even, people
have read Lears paper, and the turmoil continued.
Months later, after Lear "surfaced", another character
hit the field. This guys name is now also famous, or more to the
point, infamous ** Milton William Cooper. Cooper, now known for his
attacks on most researchers, accusing them of being govt. agents,
etc. was much more restrained in those days. After Lear had his
paper posted, many of the then ParaNet users, had many questions
for "Lear and Co." As time went on, Lear grew tired of people
asking him about sources, etc. and more often than not would fire
back. Cooper then began to ally himself with Lear.

Cooper came on the seen with a report about having sighted a UFO
while a crew member on a U. S. Sub, the TIRU. A short while later,
after covertly sending a file to Speiser to be forwarded to Stanton
Friedman, and then also sending a file to me to send to Friedman,
( without Speiser or me knowing about the other ) Cooper began to
upload all kinds of wondrous files with some outrageous claims and
documents. Of course he also came under some fire here because he
could not prove one damn thing that he claimed either. AND, OF
COURSE ONE HELL OF A LOT MORE HAPPENED. But we will leave that for
another day.

What is all of this, and why is it here? Well, one of Coopers big
drawing cards at his $25.00 and $35.00 per head lectures has been
the Kennedy Murder. Cooper has been showing a VERY POOR COPY of the
famous Zapruder film that "looks as if" the driver of Kennedy's car
turns around and shoots him with a pistol. The film was originally
worked on by a Kennedy researcher by the name of Lars Hansson. For
any of you that read my two parter on Cooper in UFO Magazine, in
part two Hansson discussed this entire sorry episode. But you are
still asking what is this about? Ok.......

During all this business with Lear, Cooper, etc. Hansson was off
and on in Las Vegas, and spent a great deal of time with Lear.
Hansson lived for a while in Lears guest house, did odd jobs for
Lear while working on his research, and Lears UFO stuff. Hansson
was right in the middle of Lear, Cooper, Lazar, and many other
things, and for a number of reasons, Hansson and Lear "fell out".

Hansson also has been a very active researcher in illegal
government covert operations, arms trade, Iran-Contra, etc., and
has just finished an explosive expose entitled "UFOs, ALIENS, and
`Ex'-intelligence Agents: Who's Fooling Whom?" The Inside Story of
John Lear, Bill Cooper, and The Greatest Coverup in Human History.

This is a 300 page AFFIDAVIT by Lars Hansson, and is available for
$25.00 plus 3.00 postage and handling. If you are interested you
can send for it at;
Paragon Research & Publications
P.O. Bx 981
Orlando, FL.  32802

I have gone through my files, and the next several messages go back
to those days in 1988 and 1989. After I get those messages up, read
them and then in a couple days I will
upload sections from Hansson's book. If you are interested in the
real story ( other than UFO Magazine of course ) of what went on
with Lear, Cooper, the U.S. Govt. and what may have been behind
Lear, et. al, this is one that you will not want to miss.
Documents, phone calls, arms shipments, alleged involvement in the
Marcos Gold shipments, Iran-Contra, CIA airlines, CIA pilots, folks
like G. Gordon Liddy, Gordon Novel, they are all here and a part of
the story. UFOs? Yep, they are here to. The inside story on what
may have been going on at S-4, Lazar, etc. How Cooper took all
these stories and wove his tale from whole cloth. Prostitutes, bad
cops, the A.I.D.s virus, and a possible cure that had been
discovered, the whole damn thing is incredible. At any rate, the
book will give pause for thought. Ok, lets go on a short time trip
back to 1988.

Don Ecker

PS It is late, so if parts of the above do not make much sense, remember, I
knew what it was that I wanted to say........  :-(
--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0)

Message #7182 - ASK_UFO
   Date : 30-Aug-91  0:34
   From : Don Ecker
     To : All
Subject : Expose II

This is from October 1988

*******************************************************

The question is often asked, why don't more military UFO
witnesses come forward publicly, and provide names, dates
and places? Surely they aren't REALLY intimidated by such
empty threats as JANAP 146-E, which provides for hefty fines
and jail sentences for breaking silence on a military UFO
sighting. Surely they realize the scien- tific import of
their sighting transcends any nationalist or mili- tary
considerations. If more military witnesses don't come forth
publicly, isn't it possible that there aren't really as many
as hardcore ufologists would have us believe? Its a question
I've often asked myself.

ParaNet is deeply indebted to, and a little honored by, user Bill
Cooper of Fullerton, California, for this, the first known report
of a multiple military witness sighting that occurred onboard the
submarine USS Tiru in 1966.
                              --Jim Speiser
-------------------------------------------------------------
In 1966 during the month of the Rose Festival in the Pacific
 Northwest United States, the USS Tiru SS-416 left Pearl
 Harbor bound for Seattle Washington.  The sub moored to a
 civilian pier near the downtown Seattle area and thousands
 of people toured the sub during its stay in Seattle.  After
 its duty as "showboat" it proceeded to a back bay area
 where it underwent torpedo trials.  I believe the area was
 called dabob bay [pronounced day-bob] but I am not sure of
 the spelling.  I include the above information because it
 should be easy to research.  During the cruise from Pearl
 to Seattle five of the crew had a very unusual experience.
 During one late afternoon the sub was cruising on the
 surface at approx. 10 knots when the port lookout reported
 a strange contact at a range of 2 miles bearing 315 degrees
 relative.  The lookout refused to tell the OOD what it was
 that he had seen and instead insisted that the starboard
 lookout and the OOD both look at that area.  The three men
 looked through their binoculars toward the area reported
 and were astounded to see a metal craft larger than a
 football field tumble from the clouds into the ocean.  It
 actually tumbled end over end and when it hit the water and
 sank beneath the ocean huge geysers of water rose into the
 air.  When the port lookout was sure that the others had
 seen it he then told the OOD that he had seen it tumble
 from the ocean up into the clouds.  The OOD and the
 starboard lookout were speechless.  Within a few minutes,
 however, they all became excited when it again rose from
 the water and tumbled up into the cloud layer.  At about
 the same time a crew member below queried the bridge about
 a radar contact at the same range and bearing.  Sonar also
 reported strange echos.  The OOD called for the Captain to
 come to the bridge at that time. He also called for the
 camera to be sent to the bridge.  The Captain arrived on
 the bridge within 2 minutes and the Chief Quartermaster was
 right behind him with the camera. At about the same time
 the object emerged from the clouds and fell down into the
 ocean.  All five men witnessed this.  The QMC took pictures
 as it rose up into the clouds and then back down into the
 ocean once again.  The five men watched for quite a while
 longer but nothing else happened.  Soon the sub had moved
 out of visual range and the Captain told all witnesses that
 they were never to discuss what they had seen with anyone
 under any circumstances.  He stated that the incident was
 classified information.  The Captain then went below and
 sent a radio msg.  There was no doubt as to what we had
 seen.  It was a metal craft with machinery on and around
 the outside of it.  It appeared to have windows or lenses
 placed around its perimeter.  It made no noise that we
 could hear.  It did not disturb the subs electrical systems
 nor did it affect the gyro compass.  It looked very much
 like a round flying "ship" as in sea going ship.  It had
 the shape and form of a saucer with a bowl inverted in the
 saucer and it was huge.  I will never forget it as long as
 I live. When I first saw this craft I believe that my heart
 literally stopped beating and I was terrified.  The name of
 the OOD was Ensign Ball.  The starboard lookout was an
 American Indian seaman that the crew called Geronimo. The
 port lookout was a new man who left the sub soon after the
 return to Pearl Harbor and his name was Cooper.  I do not
 remember the Captain's name nor the Chief Quartermaster's
 name.  This is the first time I have ever mentioned it
 since the moment that the Captain told me that it was
 classified. As far as I know it has never been reported to
 the public before this instant.  It should be easy to
 verify the facts if you can get a copy of the log and/or
 contact the other witnesses.  The names should not be too
 hard to find in the ships records/logs.  I was the port
 lookout.  I must say that I feel a great uneasyness in
 posting this, much like the way I felt in Vietnam when my
 life was in great danger.

Press ENTER to continue:


--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0)

Message #7183 - ASK_UFO
   Date : 30-Aug-91  0:35
   From : Don Ecker
     To : All
Subject : Expose III

ALSO FROM OCT. 1988

********************************************************************

 -In light of some of the controversy surrounding Lear.txt, perhaps it would
   be helpful to refer to some statements attributed to John Lear's father,
   the late William P. Lear, pertaining to possible UFO technology.
   They are excerpted from the 1978 book entitled "The Cosmic Conspiracy".
   They are presented here merely as interesting anecdotes, which may also
   be helpful to an understanding of what has influenced John Lear.


                          -Tom Mickus


 Excerpt #1
===========

      "William P. Lear, inventor and chairman of the board of Lear, Inc., one
 of the nation's largest electronics firms specializing in aviation, for
 months has been going over new developments and theories relating to
 gravity with his chief scientists and engineers".
   "...He is convinced that it will be possible to create  artificial electro-
 gravitational fields 'whose polarity can be controlled to cancel out
gravity".
   "...'All the (mass) materials and human beings within these fields will be
 part of them. They will be adjustable so as to increase or decrease the
 weight of any object in its surroundings. They won't be affected by the
 earth's gravity or that of any celestial body".
      'This means that if any person was in an anti-gravitational airplane or
 space ship that carried along its own gravitational field - no matter how
 fast you accelerated or changed course - your body wouldn't any more feel
 it than it now feels the speed of the earth' ".
      "...Eugene M. Gluhareff, president of Gluhareff Helicopter and Airplane
 Corp. of Manhattan Beach, Calif., has made several theoretical design studies
 of round or saucer-shaped 'vehicles' for travel into outer space..."

   It might also be of some interest to the reader that this author witnessed
 the late William P. Lear making another nationwide statement on a daytime,
 American television program in about 1969-70. This later statement was
 made in response to a question from the emcee who wanted to know what Mr.
 Lear envisioned the next twenty years producing in new technology. Mr. Lear
 told him that a person would be able to, say, walk into a New York "travel"
 booth - somewhat similar to a telephone box in shape; - deposit his fare;
 push a button; and walk out the other side of the booth in San Francisco -
 having been "teleported" across America in seconds! The studio audience
 automatically laughed at Mr. Lear - much to their uninformed discredit.
 Mr. Lear just gaped at their performance in utter amazement. How painfully
 sad and lonely he must have felt at that moment when he realized the great
 gulf that separated the viewing audience from the realities he had already
 witnessed in the laboratory... He was a kind and sincere man; and this
 author, for one, feels a great loss at Mr. Lear's recent death...


 Excerpt #2
===========


      In his book of 1957, entitled, "The Flying Saucer Conspiracy", Donald
 Keyhoe also mentioned some rather indicting news on pages 200-201:
      "On 2nd February, while visiting Bogota, Columbia, William P. Lear
 manufacturer of aircraft and electronic equipment, told a news conference
 that the flying saucers are real".
      "When Lear's story was flashed to the United States by the AP, it was
 a hard blow for the UFO censors. But this was only the beginning. Within
 twenty-four hours Lear amplified his first statement: 'I feel the flying
 saucers are real', he said, 'because of four points'. First, he said, there
 have been numerous manifestations over long periods of time. Second,
 many observations have been made simultaneously by reliable observers.
 Third, there are great possibilities linked with the theory of gravitational
 fields. Fourth, there are now serious efforts in progress to prove the
 existence of anti-gravitational forces and to convert atomic energy
 directly to electricity".
      "This new AP story dismayed the Pentagon, for it could easily disclose
 our top-secret research to duplicate the UFO's propulsion. There had
 already been one hint despite Pentagon precautions. During a meeting of
 aviation leaders in New York, on the 25th of January, G.S. Trimble, vice-
 president of advance design for the Glenn L. Martin Aircraft Company, had
 made an amazing disclosure... "Unlimited power, freedom form gravitational
 attraction, and infinitely short travel time are now becoming feasible', he
 told the press. Then he added that eventually all commercial air transpor-
 tation would be in vehicles operating on these fantastic principles".

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0)

Message #7184 - ASK_UFO
   Date : 30-Aug-91  0:37
   From : Don Ecker
     To : All
Subject : EXPOSE IV

From 1988

********************************************************************


#: 154899 S10/Paranormal Issues
    25-Oct-88  02:25:12
Sb: LEAR.TXT
Fm: Sysop Jim Speiser 72135,424
To: All

       I'd like to clear up one issue that seems to be bubbling under the
surface of some of these discussions.

       A lot of people have taken an interest in LEAR.TXT, because of its
obvious spectacular nature, because of its somewhat famous author, and more
recently, because to the inexperienced follower, some of what John has said
would seem to have been born out by the recent TV special. I think a short
chronology of events will put things in perspective.

       The two gentlemen you saw on UFO COVER-UP LIVE, Bill Moore and Jamie
Shandera, have been working on the MJ-12 angle since the early part of this
decade. Condor and Falcon are their alleged contacts. The MJ-12 documents were
first hinted at in the fall of 1986, when they were shown to Lee Graham, who
leaked them to CAUS, which published a two-part article on the documents in
their Fall 1986 issue. The documents were first released in April of 1987, at
which time Moore's Fair Witness Project sent them to several Ufologists,
myself
among them. As far as I know, ParaNet was the first place that the documents
became publicly viewable.

       It was around this time that John Lear was beginning to make a name for
himself in Ufology. He showed up at the MUFON symposium in Washington that
June, where Moore, Friedman and Shandera made a splash with the Documents.
They
had already made a splash the previous month at the National UFO Conference in
Burbank, where they had made the first of their oft-repeated promises of
releasing more information in the future. From the start, "more information"
included videotapes of government agents spilling their guts about the
cover-up
and telling of underground bases and secret deals.

       <continued>



Press <CR> for next or type CHOICES !10

#: 154900 S10/Paranormal Issues
    25-Oct-88  02:25:35
Sb: LEAR.TXT continued
Fm: Sysop Jim Speiser 72135,424
To: All

       In late November or early December of 1987, John Lear went to Los
Angeles to visit with Moore. He told me personally that Moore had shown him
much of his information (whether that included the actual videotapes or not, I
don't know).

       In late December of 1987, I received LEAR.TXT from John, and was asked
to have it typed up and released through ParaNet. It was early January by the
time I was able to comply.

       It wasn't clear from the actual LEAR.TXT document, but in a cover
letter
(which was not at first supplied to ParaNet), John had said that the contents
constituted his "hypothesis," a sort of distillation of things he had come
across from various sources, including Moore, Steinman's book "UFO Crash at
Aztec," Len Stringfield's work, and information he had culled from several
intelligence contacts.

       My point is this: I have no way of telling at this time whether the
information presented by Moore, Shandera, Falcon or Condor is true, but there
is no reason for people to point to the testimonials of Falcon and Condor and
say that they tend to corroborate Lear's hypothesis, because there is no
reason
to believe they are not the SOURCE of Lear's hypothess, at least in large
part.
In other words, Lear happened to have an inside track before most of you had
even heard of this stuff.

       I'm only posting this so that people's attention doesn't get
misdirected
from the true issues. Whether or not Moore-Shandera-Friedman have the real
goods, the ball is in THEIR court and not Lear's.

       There will be a further statement on this forthcoming from MSF
themselves. Watch for it here.

       Jim



Press <CR> for next or type CHOICES !

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0)

Message #7185 - ASK_UFO
   Date : 30-Aug-91  0:38
   From : Don Ecker
     To : All
Subject : EXPOSE V

From 1988, but since this was uploaded, the author, Milton Cooper has changed
it six or seven times.
********************************************************************

DISCLOSURE OF THIS INFORMATION IS AN ATTEMPT TO PROTECT AND PRESERVE THE
CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. THE GROUP KNOWN AS MAJESTIC
TWELVE HAS ENGAGED IN A VILE CONSPIRACY THAT HAS IGNORED THE LAW OF THE LAND
AND THE PRINCIPLES OF FREEDOM THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS FOUNDED UPON.  THEY
HAVE TAKEN IT UPON THEMSELVES TO INSTITUTE UNLAWFUL AND DANGEROUS PROJECTS
WHICH HAS ENDANGERED THE NATION AND THE HUMAN RACE.  THE DISCLOSURE GROUP
CONSISTS OF INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE SWORN TO UPHOLD AND PROTECT T E CONSTITUTION
OF THE UNITED STATES.  WE HOPE AND PRAY THAT THIS DISCLOSURE WILL ENCOURAGE
OTHERS CONNECTED WITH THIS CONSPIRACY TO MAKE SIMILAR DISCLOSURES.  WE ASK
THAT THIS STATEMENT REMAIN ATTACHED TO THIS INFORMATION.  WE SEEK NO REWARD OR
PUBLIC ACCLAIM.  WE ONLY SEEK TO EXPOSE THIS ACT AS A CRIMINAL ASSUALT UPON
THE UNITED STATES AND THE HUMAN RACE.


MAJESTIC TWELVE  (PROWORD) MAJIC

MAJESTIC TWELVE, MAJESTIC 12, MAJESTIC-12, MJ-12, MAJIC, are all forms of the
code name for the control group authorized by President Truman on 09/24/47.
The Director of the Central Intelligenge Agency (CIA) is the Director of
Majestic Twelve, MJ-1.  The control group was formed to oversee a TOP SECRET
Research and Development & Intelligence Operation and was responsible only to
the President.  The need for this group was dictated by the finding of a
downed FLYING SAUCER scattered over 2 sites near the town of Roswell New
Mexico in July 1947.  The dead bodys of 4 very small human like ALIENS were
also found.  MAJESTIC TWELVE is the most highly classified secret in the
United States and its existance has never been divulged to Congress.  The
funds for MJ-12 and Aquarius are CIA confidential (non-appropriated).

DOCUMENTS
MAJESTIC TWELVE documents can be identified by the following;

TOP SECRET/MAJIC/RESTRICTED DATA   EYES ONLY COPY___OF___ TOP
SECRET/MAJIC/RESTRICTED        EYES ONLY   COPY___OF___ TOP SECRET/MAJIC
EYES ONLY   COPY___OF___

One of the above will appear both at the top and bottom of each page.  You
will never see one version in a document along with any other version.  Also
on each page will appear; T52-EXEMPT (E) or just EXEMPT.  T52 is the
publication outlining procedures for automatic downgrade of all security
classifications and the time period for declassification of each security
level.  This information is never to be declassified.  Each page of each
document will be numbered consecutively and the number of pages will appear
upon the cover sheet.  Copys of MAJESTIC TWELVE beyond the original number
are forbidden.

PROJECTS under MAJESTIC TWELVE
The operations listed here were current as late as 1976 with absolute
certainty and are still operational to the best of our knowledge.  The names
of the original operations were changed several times over the years and
eventually evolved into those listed.

PROJECT SIGN  (PROWORD) MAJIC
The first project under MAJESTIC TWELVE.  The mission of project sign was
essentially the same as that which PROJECT AQUARIUS evolved into.  PROJECT
SIGN referred to aliens as Extraterrestrial Biological Entities.  The reasons
for the absorbtion of PROJECT SIGN by PROJECT AQUARIUS were mainly of a
political and security nature.  PROJECT AQUARIUS stripped the Air Force and
Army Generals of their historic control of the UFO/IAC projects and placed
most of it under the Intelligence umbrella.

PROJECT AQUARIUS  (PROWORD) MAJIC
Established in 1953 by President Eisenhower under control of MJ-12 and PROJECT
SIGN.  The Project contains all information collected by the United States
since it began investigating UFO's (Unidentified Flying Objects) and IAC's
(Identified Alien Craft).  At the time we saw this information it existed in
approximately 15 or 16 volumes.  This project became an independent project
when PROJECT SIGN was eliminated in 1960. PROJECT AQUARIUS referred to aliens
as Alien Life Forms. The mission of PROJECT AQUARIUS was to gather all
scientific, technological, medical, and intelligence information from UFO &
IAC sightings and contacts with Alien Life Forms.  The information was to be
used in the space program.

PROJECT SIGMA  (PROWORD) AQUARIUS
Established in 1954 as part of PROJECT SIGN. The mission of PROJECT SIGMA was
to establish communication with the aliens. First communication was
established in 1959 through binary computer language. On April 25, 1964 a USAF
(OSI) officer met with aliens at a prearranged desert location in New Mexico.
Information was exchanged and a basic understanding was reached after several
hours.  It was learned through this effort that several species of alien
life existed. Communication was eventually established with all of them.
Through communications it was determined that 3 catagorys existed.  The three
catagorys are MALEVOLENT (DANGEROUS), BENEVOLENT (GOOD-HELPFUL), and NEUTRAL
(OBSERVERS ONLY)  The project has been extremely successful.

PROJECT PLATO (PROWORD) AQUARIUS Established in 1960 after the United States
established communications with the aliens.  The mission of PROJECT PLATO was
to establ ish diplomatic re lations with the aliens. Project Plato made
agreements in order to prevent hostilitys between the United States and the
aliens.  An agreement was made with the MALEVOLENT aliens whereby they could
abduct humans.  The purpose of these abductions were to provide blood and
other biological fluids as food for the aliens. The aliens agreed to furnish a
list periodically to MJ-12 of the names of those abducted.  PROJECT PLATO took
whatever steps neccessary to prevent public disclosure.


* PROJECT PLUTO  (PROWORD) AQUARIUS
Established in 1947 after the Roswell incident.  The mission of PROJECT PLUTO
was to recover all crashed or downed alien craft, to recover all evidence of
alien presence or technology, and to recover all alien bodies (alive or dead).
PROJECT PLUTO developed cover stories to satisfy press and civilian curiosity.
PROJECT PLUTO was authorized use of deadly force and/or relocation to insure
secrecy.  PROJECT PLUTO was responsible for and biological intelligence of the
Alien Life Forms.

PROJECT POUNCE  (PROWORD) AQUARIUS Established in 1968.  The mission of
PROJECT POUNCE was to evaluate all UFO/IAC information pertaining to space
technology.  The goal was to duplicate the technology and/or improve upon it.
Ultimate use of the technology would establish the United States as the
dominate world power and close the gap in any confrontation with the aliens.

PROJECT REDLIGHT  (PROWORD) AQUARIUS Established in 1954.  The mission
REDLIGHT was to test a recovered alien craft.  The mission was accomplished in
part only.  PROJECT REDLIGHT was terminated in 1963 after every (flyable)
recovered craft exploded during test flights. There were no survivors among
the human test pilots.

PROJECT SNOWBIRD  (PROWORD) AQUARIUS Established in 1972.  The mission of
PROJECT SNOWBIRD was to test fly a recovered alien craft.  The project was on
going the last time I saw this information.

PROJECT ????????  (PROWORD) AQUARIUS (NOTE...We are recall the name of this
project nor have we been able to get response from anyone on it.  At the time
we saw the information the project was ongoing.  It cannot be determined if
this project is still in existence.) The mission of this project was to
develop a low frequency pulsed sound generator.  The energy produced from this
generator was to be concentrated so that it could be aimed and used as a
weapon in order to destroy the alien craft and beam weapons.  The alien beam
weapons were described as ange but able to incapacitate or destroy any weapons
system known to date (1972).  The aliens also possess a beam weapon which is
described as being able to paralyse any human within range.  Tests were
described as having shown that the alien craft and weapons were extremely
sensitive to low frequency pulsed sound waves.  This weapon was to be used to
incapacitate the alien defenses in order to allow PROJECT EXCALIBUR to succeed
in its mission.  The initial technology used in this project was capture the
Germans during WW- II.  The German sound generators were described as being
able to knock down reinforced concrete buildings and shatter 4" thick armour
from a great range.  This technology is believed to further substantiate that
Germany had recovered alien craft and had possibly had some dealings with the
aliens prior to or during WW-II.  Documents captured during and after WW-II
indicated that an alien craft had been recovered by Germany in 1939.  A German
built flying saucer was captured dur last few months of WW-II.

PROJECT EXCALIBUR  (PROWORD) AQUARIUS Established in 1972.  The mission of
PROJECT EXCALIBUR is to develop a weapons system capable of destroying the
alien underground base after the alien beam weapons have been incapacitated or
destroyed.  The alien underground base is located beneath an indian
reservation near the small town of Dulce, New Mexico.  The device must be
capable of penetrating 1,000 meters of tufa / hard pack soil and sustain no
operational damage.  This typ is commonly found in New Mexico where the alien
base is located.  Missile apogee must not exceed 30,000 feet AGL.  Impact
deviation will now exceed 50 meters.  The device will carry a 1 megaton
warhead.

PROJECT BLUE BOOK A U.S. Air Force project establiahed to determine whether
UFO's pose a threat to the security of the United States and to determine
whether UFO's exhibit any unique scientific information or advanced technology
which could contribute to scientific or technical research.  PROJECT was
successful in its primary mission outlined above.  PROJECT BLUE BOOK was not
quite so successful in its secondary mission which was to publicly explain
away the UFO phenomenon as natural or known phenomenon in order to eleminate
public interest.  To completely fulfill the secondary mission it was decided
that an outside commission of distinguished scientists would be convened in
order to permanantly lay the issue to rest.  After this 'study' was completed
(Condon Commission) the Air Force state the continuation of Project Blue Book
cannot be justified, either on the ground of national security or in the
interest of science.  PROJECT BLUE BOOK was abandoned and its mission and
information was consolidated under PROJECT AQUARIUS in 1969.

SCIENTIFIC STUDY OF UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS Contracted to the University
of Colorado in 1966 and Chaired by Dr. Edward U. Condon.  The results of the
panel were dictated before the first meeting.  Despite objections of the other
panel members, Dr. Cond le to fulfill the mission.  The general conclusion was
that "nothing has come from the study of UFOs in the past 21 years that has
added to scientific knowledge."  A panel from the National Academy of Sciences
agreed.  The press and the public were satisfied. Except for a hard core
element of UFO believers the issue died in the public forum.

OPERATION UFO  (NSA OPERATION IN SUPPORT OF PROJECT PLUTO) The mission of
Operation UFO was to form intelligence teams versed in all of the knowledge
learned which would be the first on scene of any UFO crash site in order to
secure the technology and prevent it from falling into foreign hands.  Several
teams existed over the world.  The United States was specifically concerned
that it did not fall into Soviet hands.  This mission was to be accomplished
no matter the country of occurrance.  Many subsequent ALIEN CRAFT recoverys
would occur in foreign countrys as well as the United States.  UFO was also
used to recover downed space hardware (especially So d to recover nuclear
weapons which became lost (usually by accident).

OPERATION MOONDUST  (SUPPORTED SPACE PROGRAM & UFO) The mission of Operation
Moondust was to provide a cover which would neutralize public curiosity while
recovery of an ALIEN CRAFT was being conducted.  The teams that made up the
compliment of Moondust were the same teams that made up UFO. Moondust was made
public and its mission (to the public) was to identify and recover United
States space hardware which might fall to earth. s a bonified mission when
circumstances dictated.

OPERATION BLUEFLY  (SUPPORTED UFO & MOONDUST) The mission of operation Bluefly
was to provide QUICK REACTION COMBAT TEAMS known as ALPHA teams (fight for
technology if neccessary), mechanical and technological support in recovery,
rapid and secure transport to secure storage and examination areas.  There are
several of these storage and examination areas in order to limit distance
traveled and thus limit the possible chance of an accident that cou e cargo to
public knowledge.  Several teams existed over the world.  Recovery and
transport of both EBEs (dead or alive) and Alien craft were accomplished.
Bluefly was also utilized in event of recovery of space objects (of
terrestrial origin), and event of recovery of lost nuclear weapons (usually
due to accident).


NOTE....This account of the history and current status of MAJESTIC TWELVE and
the Alien Life Forms has been kept brief. We believe that the intent, however,
has been served with th on provided.  The whole story would fill several
hundred volumes.  We realize that even with the combined effort of several
memorys we have probably made some mistakes.  We have tried to minimize the
mistakes and feel that what is represented is true and correct to the best of
our combined knowledge.

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0)

-------- Continued in Expose Part 2 ------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: FILE: Don Ecker/Lars Hansson expose on Cooper,Lear pt2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Sep 91 03:48:38 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 457
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2061 alt.conspiracy:7181 sci.skeptic:15182





------- Expose part 2 (conclusion) -------------------------------------


Message #7186 - ASK_UFO
   Date : 30-Aug-91  0:40
   From : Don Ecker
     To : All
Subject : EXPOSE VI

From 1988

*******************************************************************


                        LEAR AND COOPER: AN EXPLANATION
                              (But Not an Apology)

                                  Jim Speiser
                                    10/26/88

     Ordinarily,  I don't feel I have to explain my actions regarding this
     board  or  this network. I think I've developed a pretty good reputa-
     tion  for  reliability  and  fairness. I certainly owe nothing in the
     way  of an explanation to Messrs. Cooper and Lear. However, I can see
     where  some confusion may have arisen regarding my actions, especial-
     ly  on  the  part  of  Don Ecker, whom I have a great deal of respect
     for,  and  on the part of other users who have discreetly inquired as
     to my reasons.

     These  things  always  seem to come best in the form of chronologies,
     and so, a brief chronology follows.

     Bill  Cooper first contacted this board with a story of a sighting he
     had on board a submarine in 1966. The story (TIRU-1.UFO) was forward-
     ed  to  Vickie  Cooper for inclusion in a possible story in UFO Maga-
     zine.  It  was  also sent to Stan Friedman for verification. This was
     back in August.

I  learned  from Vickie Cooper that Bill (no relation) had had a con-
versation  with  her  in which the Majestic-12 documents had come up. When
she  mentioned  the  "proword" "MAJIC", he claimed to have seen that  word  on
several  documents  back  in his days with CINCPACFLT (Commander  in  Chief,
Pacific Fleet). About a week later, I received the  first of many files from
Cooper, in which he implied that he had firsthand contact with or knowledge of
individuals connected with MJ- 12.  (see  GUIDANCE.DOC).  He  further implied
that anyone possessing this  knowledge  was  in  great danger. I forwarded
this file to both Stanton Friedman  and  Jamie Shandera, to see whether any of
the in- formation in it checked out. I later found out that it did not.

     In  the  meantime,  Cooper took a more active role in the public mes-
     sage  base. He claimed publicly that he had lost his $75,000/year job
     as  a  marketing  director,  two  days  after having spoken with Stan
     Friedman.  He stated that he would not be providing any more info for
     this  reason.  In  the  meantime,  several  more documents written by
     Cooper  filtered  through the ParaNet system, by way of our Ft. Smith
     board.  They  were  uploaded anonymously, but were written by Cooper.
     They  each  contained  the same preamble, which claimed that the info
     was  for  myself  and  for Stanton Friedman only, and that we were in
     great  danger for possessing the info contained therein. (DANGER.DOC,
     MUGGER.DOC, PICNIC2.DOC).

At  around  this time, a user named Jeff Felix began using the board, and
asked  via chat for a private meeting between him and myself. We set  up  a
meet at the Jerry's on Scottsdale Road in Tempe (the same one  at  which  the
Phoenix Skeptics hold their monthly meetings.) At this  meeting,  Felix, who
is all of about 24, told a bizarre tale of having  been  an  NSA  cryptology
technician, of having been "fooling around"  on  the  NSA  computer, trying to
come up with an encryption program,  and  had  "stumbled across" the Majestic
file, the Aquarius file,  the whole ball of wax. "Its all true," he told us,
"the under- ground  bases, the aliens, the crashed saucers, etc." He claimed
that with  a modified modem, he could get back in to the files. Naturally, I
was extremely skeptical, and a few days later when I asked Felix a few
questions on the phone, testing his knowledge of the most basic intelligence
terminology,  I  became  flat-out  incredulous  when he failed  the  test.
What was even more revealing was that Bill Cooper had  provided me with some
of the questions I asked Felix, and I have a  captured chat session with
Cooper in which he expressed his doubts of Felix's veracity.

     In  my  last  online  chat  with Felix, he mentioned something called
     Project  X-calibur  (his  spelling). He said he had discussed it with
     Cooper  on  the  phone  before he had called me. Cooper later told me
     that  no,  Felix had not mentioned it. He told me he had heard of it,
     but  that  it was VERY Top Secret, above his level. He said he didn't
     know anything more about it.

     Much  to  my  surprise,  Cooper  later called to tell me that Project
     Excalibur  is real, that his sources told him it was a project by MJ-
     12  to  extract  technology  from  the aliens. He told me that it was
     important  I  get  in  touch with Felix, that if "the kid knows about
     [Excalibur],  he's  for  real." Felix, in the meantime, would give me
     no  information  about Excalibur, except that a friend of his who had
     done  the  same  thing he had (broken into the NSA's Cray-3 computer,
     the  most advanced and secure supercomputer in the world), had "stum-
     bled across" the Excalibur file.

     My  thinking  on Cooper and Felix at this time began to center on the
     thought  that  the two of them were scamming me behind my back, and I
     had  visions  of  having  ParaNet  become a home for unwed paranoids.
     When  John  LEar  returned  from  his long absence, and began to join
     with  Cooper  in a series of mutual admiration sessions, I saw things
     getting out of control.

     I  knew  by now that Cooper was either engaging in fantasy role-play-
     ing,  or  something more sinister. The word "disinformation" has been
     bandied  about  quite  freely  during  this  entire  MJ-12 mess. Now,
     please  consider:  Cooper's  credentials  as a Naval NCO with a back-
     ground  in  intelligence  seem to check out. His information is self-
     contradicting  and  paranoid, and  does NOT check out, at least with the
several  intelligence  sources  I have contacted. After the UFO COVER-UP
broadcast,  Cooper  sent ANOTHER file by way of ParaNet RHO in  BOISE,  called
his  10-15-88 Position Paper. In it he completely contradicts  his  entire
previous  thesis, and claims that the MJ-12 scenario  as painted by Moore's
group (and implicitly, by himself) is a hoax.  Further,  he  claims to be in
full agreement with John Lear (which agreement  seems  to  be  mutual,  based
on Lear's support of Cooper).  Now I  ask you, if agents of disinformation are
at work to discredit  the  field of  Ufology,  who  is the more likely
suspect? Moore/Shandera/Friedman,  who claimed  from  the  beginning  to have
videotapes  of  bona  fide  government agents, and produced them for live  TV,
or  Cooper/Lear, who seemingly plagiarized the Moore docu- ments,  gave  them
a slightly different spin, then turned around and contradicted  themselves
the  moment it became public knowledge, and can't  even  seem  to  agree  with
each other, yet support each other publicly?  My  locking  out  of  Cooper was
actually on the advice of Cooper  himself,  who  accused William Pitts and the
New Project Blue Book of  being  a military intelligence cover operation, and
ParaNet of  being  an unwitting  disinformation  pipeline. To avoid becoming
such  a  pipeline, which I'm sure no one here wants, I simply got rid of the
most likely suspect.

     As  to  Lear, I don't think any self-respecting Sysop would stand for
being  accused  of borderline treason on his public board, especially from  a
man  who  proudly displays in his office enlarged telephoto- graphs  of  the
installation at Groom Lake, the country's most secret tactical  aircraft
development  area,  obtained by himself after at- tempting  to  enter  the
area illegally. His unqualified support for Cooper,  which  seems  to  be
based  solely  on Cooper's unqualified support  for  him,  I  found
distasteful  and somehow disturbing, in light  of  the  fact that Cooper has
contradicted Lear's information. And  consider:  John  Lear entered Ufology in
early 1987, when it be- came  known  to  a few that Moore was going to release
MJ-12. Lear is known to have been a CIA operative in the past. He wears his
patriot- ism  on his office walls, in the form of autographed pictures of him-
self  standing with  G.  Gordon  Liddy.  Again, if disinformation is taking
place, I ask you, who is the more likely source?

     And  is  it  working? Well, consider. What if Moore/Shandera/Friedman
     DO  have  the  real  goods?  If  so,  isn't  it  a shame that so many
     intelligent  people,  people  such as Don Ecker, watched UFO COVER-UP
     LIVE,  and  instead  of  asking if MSF were for real, began asking if
     Lear  and  Cooper  were  for  real? This, despite the obvious contra-
     dictions and obfuscations listed below:

     "The  documents you are looking for are for the most part labeled TOP
     SECRET MAJIC-RESTRICTED DATA"  -- Bill Cooper, 22 August

     "EVERY  DOCUMENT  YOU  SEE  WHICH USES...`MAJIC' IS A FRAUD!" -- Bill
     Cooper, 15 October

     "The  documents  produced  by Mr. Moore et al are photographic copies
     of  genuine  documents  which  were  procured at great risk." -- Bill
     Cooper, 22 August

     "I  CAN  PROVE  BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT TO ANYONE THAT MOST OF THE
     INFORMATION  RELEASED  BY  WILLIAM  MOORE,  ET  AL...ARE  OBVIOUS AND
     DELIBERATE FORGERIES." -- Bill Cooper, 15 October

     "Hmmm...let  me  think on that one for a while." -- Bill Cooper, when
     I  told  him  that  the  Aquarius Telex contained a compartmentalized
     routing  code at the top that indicated to anyone trained in military
     communications/intelligence  that  the document was either fraudulent
     or to be ignored for some reason. Phone conversation, 11 October

     "The code is ZNY." -- Bill Cooper, phone conversation, 12 October.

     "I  got  it, Jim, I just remembered after I hung up with you, its NOT
     ZNY,  that means something else, but its _________" (my deletion). --
     Bill Cooper, phone conversation, 12 October

    "There  is  a  code  at  the head of the AQUARIUS TELEX that tells me
     that  the information contained within it is not to be acted upon nor
     in  any way believed...________ on the telex net informs all stations
     that  the  message  CANNOT  BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY...The code is really a
     type  of  slang/graffiti  that was used by a lot of enlisted men, and
     sometimes  by  officers.  I  had  a  lot  of  fun  with  a  couple of
     Ufologists  on  that  one.  THEY STILL BELIEVE THAT THEY WERE TESTING
     ME."  -- Bill Cooper, 15 October

     -----
     Emphasis  and  deletions  above  are  in  the  originals except where
     indicated.


--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0)

Message #8540 - ASK_UFO
   Date : 05-Sep-91 13:19
   From : Don Ecker
     To : All
Subject : UFOs, Aliens, & Ex-Spooks!


To All ParaNet readers;

As promised, here is selected sections from the just published book
"UFOs, Aliens, and "Ex"-intelligence Agents" by researcher and
author Lars Hansson. Hansson gave me permission to upload sections
from his book to the ParaNet readership. If you are interested in
buying this 300 page interesting release of facts, figures, etc.
you can write Hansson at;

Paragon Research & Publications
P.O. Box 981
Orlando, Florida 32802

The book is $25.00 U.S. with $3.00 for postage and handling.


From the new book:

** UFOs, Aliens, and "Ex"-intelligence Agents: Who's Fooling Whom?
`The inside story of John Lear, Bill Cooper and "The Greatest
Cover-Up in Human History' **

Part One:

LEAR AND LOATHING IN LAS VEGAS (with apologies to Dr. Hunter S.
Thompson)

Although I knew it would somehow be inevitable, I have been very
reluctant to commit what follows to hard copy for a number of
reasons.  Throughout years of uncovering all manner of lies,
treachery, deceit and betrayal by criminal elements within the
government of our country and its client regimes around the world,
I have subscribed to an unspoken code of "honor among thieves" --
that is, to respect and protect the identity of sources who have
finally chosen to "come clean," often at great peril to themselves
or their families.  What has been held reluctantly in confidence
emerges now only after the repeated blatant and sniggering
violation of that code by John Lear himself.   Despite Lear's
cultivated image as a swashbuckling pilot and serious UFO
researcher, he is, in my opinion, and others', an irresponsible,
self-centered, loutish thrill-seeker who truly has no business in
the latter field, and questionable competence in the former, given
his record of hard-drinking and womanizing, at least during the
time I associated with him from 1988-1990.  Lest I be accused of
self-righteousness in this regard, I have never pretended to
sanctity, but have certainly interacted with Lear and the others
mentioned herein with utmost integrity, while he has not hesitated
to portray me publicly in a much different light.  Because of the
magnitude of the issues he has succeeded in forcing before the
world's attention, I believe that it is long past the time when the
public should know more of the truth about Lear which he has so
desperately been attempting to conceal. I sincerely regret that I
waited this long to bring it to their attention myself.  For
someone who has made such an effort to "wake up the masses" to the
looming peril of takeover by "grey aliens from Zeta Reticuli,"
which he has claimed are ensconced in underground havens in the
Nevada desert, the man has accomplished an even more masterful
cover-up of the looming peril of martial law under the fascist
masters he has willingly served for over two decades.   The only
reason I have reluctantly chosen not to publicize Lear's
involvement in the activities I am about to disclose until now was
that I had little doubt that his family would almost certainly
suffer severe negative repercussions, particularly considering some
of the principals involved.

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0)

Message #8541 - ASK_UFO
   Date : 05-Sep-91 13:20
   From : Don Ecker
     To : All
Subject : Part II "Spooks"

Continued from last message.

UFOs, Aliens and "Ex"-intelligence Agents

Part II

While a few concerned citizens are still asking "Where was George?"
on October 19 and 20, 1980 when a shameful deal was being made in
Paris with the Iranians to keep the American hostages until the
precise moment Ronald Reagan was inaugurated, I am compelled by
conscience to inform them more fully on those who handled the
actual payoff.  This payoff has been estimated by those in the know
to ultimately total upwards of $82 billion in illegal weapons
transfers over a period of nearly a decade. On a more personal
level, I am also intent on making it clear to all concerned that I
am aware of the threats Lear has been making -- including his
obsession with having me killed, according to one mutual
acquaintance.  Since I made his threats public, he has claimed that
I am a "Walter Mitty" who would like to flatter myself that someone
cared enough to feel threatened by my disclosures.  I believe,
however, that Lear's fear has been genuine for some time that I
will expose his complete fraudulence on the UFO issue, and his
participation in such treasonous and criminal flight operations
over a number of years. In this regard, it is almost a given that
Lear might already have quietly made calls to his cronies in the
"trade" to whine and snivel about the numerous secrets he bragged
about to me.  Have no doubt whatsoever, that any of these people
would kill unhesitatingly to continue covering up many of the
things Lear bantered about openly to me, though he was fully aware
of my professional and political orientation from the very outset
of our contact with each other.

Continued Next.

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0)

Message #8542 - ASK_UFO
   Date : 05-Sep-91 13:21
   From : Don Ecker
     To : All
Subject : Part III "Spooks"


Continued from last;


**************************************************************
 I have little doubt, however, that exposure of Lear's involvement
in the operations I am about to describe will ultimately surface
direct connections all the way into the highest levels of the U.S.
Intelligence Community and beyond.

***************************************************************

I believe it is no coincidence at all that Lear emerged from the
shadows to start beating the UFO drum in early 1987 just in time to
distract public attention from the Iran/Contra scandal which was
beginning to unravel

***************************************************************
It is also well worth noting that Robert Gates, the former Deputy
Director of the CIA, whom Bush is again pushing for directorship
after he was forced to withdraw in 1987 because of his unsavory
connections with Casey and the diversion of Iranian funds to the
contras, is the scion of Gates/Firestone, the company which bought
out John's father's company, Lear-Siegler, at that time one of the
largest defense contractors in the world.

****************************************************************

 Whatever thought I might have had about Lear's largesse quickly
evaporated when I learned he had been cut out of his father's will,
his father being Bill Lear, inventor of the Lear Jet and the 8-
track stereo, the "Stormy Genius" who would perhaps have rivaled
Howard Hughes himself, but for his own peculiar distractions.  The
reasons why Bill made and lost several fortunes, wives and
girlfriends, and was later moved to cut John out of his will are
the stuff of legend already, though I have my own suspicions. The
bottom line was that, contrary to public opinion, John Lear was
living from paycheck to paycheck at the time I met him in mid-1988
and was merely tooting the UFO horn for intellectual stimulation
and to supplement his income slightly -- or so he claimed.

*****************************************************************

Continued next message.

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0)

Message #8543 - ASK_UFO
   Date : 05-Sep-91 13:22
   From : Don Ecker
     To : All
Subject : Part IV "Spooks"


And now onto Milton Cooper.

******************************************************************

Cooper, in particular, has had no qualms about calling friends of
mine to threaten their lives over the phone in the middle of the
night.  They will verify that this took place, and you can actually
obtain an audiotape of 10 such calls he made to two individuals who
were attempting to help promote him -- I've included the ad in this
report.  According to mutual acquaintances, Lear has forged
threatening notes and my signature on my letter to him, placed
several messages on his answering machine offering my phone
messages to him for sale, and most recently has discussed his
obsession with luring me back to Las Vegas to kill me.

*****************************************************************

THE TRUTH BETRAYED

Cooper, meanwhile, has devoted nearly four pages of his recently
released book to one lie after another about me concerning a rough,
preliminary videotape I made three years ago concerning an aspect
of the Kennedy assassination which he obtained from John Lear
without my permission.  He also claims that Lear fingered me as a
CIA agent, and himself links me with best-selling authors Robert
Groden and David Lifton as "agents of the Secret Government."

*******************************************************************

The resulting 7th-generation video was intended to serve only as a
preliminary research tool to spur potential investors to underwrite
a thorough professional investigation into the theory that the
driver of the presidential limousine, William Greer, actually
turned around and fired the fatal shot at JFK with a handgun.   As
startling as this allegation might seem on first hearing, the two
separate JFK researchers who first brought it to my attention --
Perry Adams and David Evans -- had each spent over 15 years in
attempts to prove the charge.  Adams and his research associate,
Fred Newcomb, had actually written a 500-page manuscript entitled
Murder From Within, documenting the theory in exhaustive detail.
Evans had combed the entire 26-volumes of the Warren Commission and
countless other sources to locate any potential references or
supporting evidence, particularly photographic, to prove Greer's
culpability.  Although I no longer agree with them, I have nothing
but respect for their selfless, dedicated and painstakingly
thorough efforts to verify this crucial detail.  Bill Cooper, on
the other hand, is a Johnny-come-lately to the debate with the
investigation skills of a P.T. Barnum and the scruples of a Vidkun
Quisling.

*****************************************************************

Without my knowledge, however, and completely contrary to our
agreement that it would be kept private, Lear showed the tape
numerous times publicly and gave a copy to Cooper, Nippon TV and
God knows who else.  I later learned from him and Don Ecker, a
writer for UFO Magazine who attended the meeting, that when he had
showed it (without permission, of course) to a meeting of former
intelligence officers in Las Vegas in November 1988, four of them
raised their hands when he asked if any of them would have killed
John Kennedy if they had been so ordered!

*****************************************************************

As I delve further into Hanssons book, I will excerpt further
sections from the book for uploading.

Don

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0)

EOF

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Vedic writings and request for comments - Forwarded mail
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Sep 91 03:57:18 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 89



I was asked to forward this to the newsgroup as Keith does not
have direct access here. Please email *all* your comments,feedback
etc to him at the bottom of this message. Thanks.

-----begin forwarded message ----------------------------------------



Dear UFO newsgroup (alt.alien.visitors) -

I have been reading this newsgroup for about three months now and with the
assistance of Don A. in Florida I can post this opinion of UFOS.

I was in spiritual life for about as year (1 year) after college and
studied the Vedas from India, which was written thousands of years by great
sages like Sankaracharya, Ramanacharya and Lord Kapila (the father of
Indian philosophy).

One large segment of the Vedic writings details exactly how God goes about
creating the physical universe and the range of planetary su systems that
exist. Lord Kapila explains that there are three levels of planetary systems-
heavenly (Indraloka, Bramaloka, Satyaloka, etc.) where "demigods" or
great souls take birth and live for hundreds of thousands of "earth" years.
A soul goes there after great yogic and or humanitarian sacrifice as a
human.  These beings are not gods, but sould souls like you and I who
have lived pious lives, concerned about important matters and have sacrificed
for them.

The middle planetary system (eg earth) has over1,000 different human-type
species or races.  These beings are moderate in their taste for spiritual or
metaphysical matters and also enjoy materialistic activities - that is the
reason they take birth in this planetary range.  The lifespan is about 100
years (by our standards)

Finally, the hellish planetary system is populated by impious beings that
are purely materialistic.  Absolutely no interest in spiritual matters or
metaphysics.  These beings - according to Vedic tradition and writings -
have been seen visiting the earth for thousands of years because they
see "materiaistic" opportunity for themselves in the midddle planets.
They don't necessarily want to destroy anythings, but rather exploit
physical resources for their own sense enjoyment or sense gratification.

I am posting this to get reaction from people who see a parallel bew
between the Vedic writings of Lord Kapila from tens of thousands of years
ago - and see the relation of current UFO phenomena.

Apparently, this UFO phenomena, by spiritual standards, is no big deal
because the enlightened sages acknowledge their presc3n presence -
demigods and demons - to be a reality and not fiction.

According to Vedic tradition, earth is a surprisingly attractive planet for
beth demigods and demons because "heavenly" enjoyment and hellish
suffering are minimal and the soul can better meditate on God or
self-realization and become liberated from the cycle of samsara, or
repeated birth and death.  Apparently, when Krishna was on earth in
Vrindaban, the heavenly planet entities (demigods) used to visit earth
in "lotus" ships made of astral/etheral substance, simply to watch Krishna
dance the "er rasa" DANCE WITH the Gopis, or cowheard damsals. That is
why Krishna is called "the most attractive one" becuase of his dance.

But, back to the UFO business, interplanetary travel is a reality that
Basic Indian scripture (Vedic traditon) recognized bask back in the
ancient days of mankind.  In many ways, we need not require physical
evidence to ascertain the presence of interplanetary visitors, but rather
consult some ancient writings that earmark developments in their own
civilizations as a result of visitors in their time.

I was wondering if anyone else can site (cite) scriptural references to UFOs
is other traditions than simply the Vedas??  Please email your
commments to me in Bston, thanks./
Keith Johnson
j
[e-mail]

--+-------------------------------------------------------------------+--

End of forwarded message --


Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!linus!linus!maestro!gpivar
From: [e-mail] (Greg Pivarnik)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Doug and Dave on hoaxes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Sep 91 10:51:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va
Lines: 18
Nntp-Posting-Host: maestro.mitre.org

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Valerie Westfall) writes:
|> Yes, I too find it hard to imagine Doug and Dave travelling furiously around
|> the world creating circles in foreign crops.  Uh, like maybe other people have
|> been trying to make crop circles too. :-)  Maybe this explains why crop
|> circles in other countries, for example Canada, are quite rough and even
|> primitive in comparison to recent formations in England. Find me a complex
|> formation (ie. an insectogram) in a country where no circles have previously
|> appeared and THEN I'll be impressed. Maybe you should check Doug and Dave's
|> passports while you're at it...(:-))2
May-be Doug & Dave had their alien buddies fly them around to these locations in their spacecraft so they could help them with their hoax?...sorry that was uncalled for, I agree the real hoax is Doug &Dave!
--
"Lizzy Borden was misunderstood"
                  ACME Hatchet Co.
--
Mitre disclaims dogma declaimated which decimates directives.
--

Greg
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ibism!ibism.UUCP!ghica
From: [e-mail] (Renato Ghica)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Sep 91 14:21:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Citibank IBISM
Lines: 28
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15186 alt.paranormal:3093 alt.alien.visitors:2064 talk.religion.newage:6846

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) writes:
|>
|>         Dan, I've read the transcripts you've posted, and I'm perfectly
|> willing to believe that they come from a higher form of intelligence.
|> However, I'm going to require proof. And I have a test that would be
|> satisfactory proof.
|>
|>         I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem
|> for me.
|>
.. NP stuff here
|>
|>         Solve it, and you've got a convert. (Maybe even a Nobel.)
|>

I'd be happy with any S&P 500 quote between tomorrow and the year 2000
(assuming that the math problem is not solved in the future).

:-)

-rg

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

    - No disclaimer necessary - No claim made.

Renato Ghica
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!dali.cs.montana.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!dh4j+
From: [e-mail] (David O Hunt)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Mt. Shasta Pt.1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Sep 91 15:23:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 12
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15188 alt.alien.visitors:2065
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

One wonders how much they get in fees/royalties for saying this...if they get
ANYTHING then their credibility is shot.

If there really is a civilization under Mt. Shasta, they must not be very good
geologists...that whole area is active (geologically speaking) as Mt.
St. Helens
showed.  Crater Lake is showing some signs of thermal venting (see this month's
Discover), and Mt. Hood has had micro-tremors for a while (according to my
not-infallible memory).

Trust a truly "advanced" civilization to build itself underneath a potentially
active volcano!
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!uniwa!bilby.cs.uwa.oz.au!kultarr!richmo_c
From: [e-mail] (Craig Richmond)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Hey, Don Allen.
Summary: Just a quick question
Keywords: smirk
Message-ID: <richmo_c.685222299@kultarr>
Date: 18 Sep 91 19:31:39 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Dept. Computer Science, University of Western Australia.
Lines: 9
Nntp-Posting-Host: kultarr

Let me take a stab in the dark here.

Your site doesn't charge you per kilobyte posted does it :-)

But aside from that, some of the things are interesting and I think its
great you go to the time to do it.

Craig Richmond
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!mixcom!jjwwjj
From: [e-mail] (Robotic Systems)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: MASS INTELLIGENCE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Sep 91 18:27:57 GMT
Organization: Milwaukee Information eXchange (Public access Usenet, Email)
Lines: 29

Just two ideas about crop circles:

1) I read somewhere that the atmosphere of Jupiter is considered one of the
   most likely places we might find life in our solar system. This got me
   thinking: maybe our atmosphere is not only alive (with bacteria, etc...)
   but also intelligent and organized! Maybe it is trying to communicate
   with us (ie. "Stop Polluting!"). Is Jupiter's (and Saturn & Uranus') Red
   Spot another type of crop circle?

2) Also along the lines of mass, organized intelligence, is it possible
   the whole human race is sub-conciensously trying to communicate as a
   whole? I know this sounds far out, but I think something like this
   was part of the "Ghost Busters" movie... when everyone in NYC had
   to think good thoughts to kill the evil spirits (or something like
   that). Maybe collectively we are the "alien" intelligence causing
   the crop circles!

As crazy as these ideas sound, I am interested in any replys. Please
post for all to read.

Finally, does anyone know anymore about the giant objects found under-
ground in Ogden, Utah?


--
===============================================================================
Clint Laskowski              Post Office Box 552, Cudahy, Wisconsin  53110-0552
ROBOTIC SYSTEMS              INTERNET: [e-mail]  VOICE: [phone]
===============================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!medici!jbm
From: [e-mail] (Jacques Guy)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: MASS INTELLIGENCE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 00:49:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 8




No, no, no, no! You've got it inside out! It's wheat that, after millions
of years of natural selection and centuries of man-induced selection, has
become intelligent and is trying to communicate with us.

*** MAKING BREAD IS MURDER ***
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Implant story Off MUFONET "Contact" echo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 01:03:00 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 54
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2069 alt.conspiracy:7204 sci.skeptic:15221


I found this while reading the MUFONET "Contact" BBS UFO echo

--------------------------------------------------------------



Message #6253 - CONTACT
   Date : 15-Sep-91 12:05
   From : Steve Jones
     To : Sandy Barbre
Subject : Thanks for the invitation
Replies : -> #6255

Sandy- Thanks for the invitation to this echo. I am very pleased to gain
access. As most of you know who have read my posts on the National UFO echo, I
am a serious researcher of the phenomena. I am open-minded, over educated
(grin)- I have degrees in Psychology and Cultural Anthropology, and I am a
consumate reader on subjects related to the UFO phenomena.
   As I have mentioned on the National echo, I have personally viewed the
x-rays of an implant person, who were sent up here to Sacramento to another
physician for a second opinion. Fortunately, the son of the physician happens
to be a friend who knew of my interest in the subject (we had just been
talking about it the week before) and he gave me the x-ray to look at. I took
it over to a life-long friend who is a OB/Gynocologist and he was really
puzzled. The position of the implant is strange (it is in the lower back area,
below the kidney) and corresponds to the one that was mentioned on the recent
Joan Rivers show. Again, thanks. I have to go for now, but I will definitely
be back. I have spoken to Dan Brown about the x-rays and will be showing it to
him next week. ---Steve Jones
--- QuickBBS 2.64/O (R)
 * Origin: The heart sings the silent song of being: (1:203/163)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some background on the "Contact" echo...this is a specific area that MUFON
provides for the sharing on Contact/Abduction experiences where people are
encouraged to freely talk about their encounters _without_ the fear of
ridicule,flaming and other all-too-human "traits". In fact, the echo policy
is that *anyone* who flames another person's experience or otherwise
ridicules the experiences of others is _gone_...poof!

ParaNet has pretty much a similar area called "Abduct" and I suspect the
same rules above also apply.

Don



--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Implant story#1 - Off MUFONET "Contact" echo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 00:50:14 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 58
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2070 alt.conspiracy:7205 sci.skeptic:15222


I found this while reading the MUFONET "Contact" BBS UFO echo

-------------------------------------------------------------



Message #7610 - CONTACT
   Date : 17-Sep-91  0:30
   From : Bob Ross
     To : Sandy Barbre
Subject : Re: Abductions
Replies : #6282 <--> #7611

Sandy,
     Always good to hear from you! When I use the word abduction, I mean that
they physically take me away. I am not sure if any experiments are being done
on me. The only experiments that I know of to date is on my implants. My first
implant was put up through my right nostril and I woke up for the next couple
of days with a bloody nose. A couple of months ago I was implanted again but
this time it was put through my left ear. I have no idea if the other implant
was removed or not. I have not had a bloody nose since that abduction. For
some reason I still can not remember my abductions except for being taken and
being put back. Usually about 3 to 7 days after the abduction I start seeing
images and remember some things. I can't remember of any experiments except
for the implants. I do remember them takeing me to some planet (I think). It
was a very dry and brown place with a very dark purple sky. I remember being
taken by one or two "greys" to a dark grey or black pyramid shape structure.
There were two greys guarding this structure. A grey approached the two that
were takeing me and told them that I was not ready. I was able to talk and
somehow convince them that I was ready to enter the structure. I think that
the grey meant that I was not ready to enter the structure. It seemed to be of
some significant importance to them. I remember going in room after room. I
was quite startled when I saw a lot of human parts. I really started to get
afraid. Finally I ended up into some far off room with a few greys, a human,
and a blond hair-blue eyed female. She looked human but I really don't think
that she was. She pulled out a black box from a shelf. I have no idea what
this black box was but I have never been so afraid of something in my life.
The next thing I know is that I am back in my bed sweating and afraid. I know
that this sounds like a movie of some sort but It was a real experience. Can
you offer any help and do you know of anyone with a similiar experience?
Thank's for everything.
                           Confused,
                                 Bob Ross

--- QuickBBS 2.75 Ovr (Gamma-2)
 * Origin: Pegasus of Orion [phone] Ltd HRS:18:00-6:30 (MDT) (1:128/94)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Info: Keith Basterfield report on recent UFO seminar in Sydney,Aus.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 01:08:52 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 122
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2071 alt.conspiracy:7206 sci.skeptic:15223


The following came off of the ParaNet UFO Network recently:

-----------------------------------------------------------------



Message #4361 - INFO.PARANET
   Date : 11-Sep-91 16:19
   From : Vladimir Godic
     To : ALL
Subject : UFO Seminar

The following is a report  by Keith Basterfield after attending a recent UFO
seminar in Sydney, New South Wales.

The first Australian International UFO seminar was held on the 7-8 Sept 1991,
in Sydney, New South Wales. The meeting was attended by about 300-350 people.
Interestingly it was sponsored by a Japanese travel company, Imagine-A-Nation.
It was an open to the public seminar.  There were a diverse range of people
attending ranging from the serious to the weird.  It should be noted that it
wasn't a UFO researchers' conference, but a public seminar.

The speakers from overseas were:

1 - Jerry Clark, CUFOS, Chicago.
2 - Jenny Randles U.K.
3 - Brian O'Leary, ex astronaut from the US.

Australian speakers were:-

1 - Bill Chalker.
2 - Keith Basterfield.
3 - Brian Crowley.
4 - Antony Drew.

On Friday Sept 6, a media conference was held and attended by all speakers.
During the subsequent 2 hours of interviewing the media concentrated on Jerry
ideas of cover-up; Jenny's ideas on crop circles and Keith's x-ray re
abductions.  Other attendees received less attention.  The resultant publicity
from the media conference has been very wide spread.

Topics covered were:

Jenny Randles covered U.K. circles. She illustrated the progression of the
phenomenon from simple to complex.  Circles have been traced back for some 500
years.  Jenny explored  Meaden's vortices, saying that the theory didn't cover
the entire phenomena, but feels it covers a percentage of simple circles.  She
explored the recent Japanese recreation of plasma phenomena in a modified
microwave oven.

Jenny showed a slide of the English policeman's green alien and discussed this
sighting, saying  that it holds up; they haven't been able to crack that case
as anything other than genuine so far.

Jenny also advised that with UK abduction cases BUFORA has stopped doing
hypnotic regressions and feel that they should only be done by qualified
professionals.

Jerry Clark talked over the two  days on the U.S.A. cover up legend, from
Roswell in 1947 through to the present.  Jerry believes that the 80s legends
are disinformation from U.S. Air Force intelligence.  He discussed the reasons
for this- a) the USAF could have the crashed Roswell UFO, b) they could be
just covering up secret aircraft research beyond stealth.  At the present
there are reliable US based reports of extraordinary aircraft flying in a
manner characteristic of UFOs re speed, and manoeuvrability.  Hudson Bay and
Belgium reports talk of similar craft.  Jerry outlined Bill Cooper's story as
an example of paranoia going through U.S. UFOlogy.  Because of audience
response, it is very obvious that the Bill Cooper legend has taken off amongst
some Australian UFOlogists.

Brian O'Leary gave 2 talks mainly on the new age movement and his personal
conversion through a psychic experience.  On Sunday he demonstrated  spoon
bending.  Basically explained his own experience from being an astronaut,
through being a physicist, through now to tour guide operator to new age
sites. A personal story of conversion.

Brian Crowley was examining evidence for ET life in our solar system. He
talked about the face on Mars and moon mysteries, illustrated with slides,
some of which were blurred.  There was almost no new information in the talk,
all at least 5 years old.

Antony Drew gave an illustrated talk covering Bruce Cathy style grid systems
over Australia.  Again, no new information in talk.

Bill Chalker gave an illustrated talk covering the physical trace experience
within Australia and overseas.  Bill said these cases are amenable to
scientific examination.  He covered the Rosedale and early physical trace
cases like Tully, slime mould on lawns, giving a broad cross section of
illustrations.  He stated that science has not taken a serious look at the
phenomena across the board so far.

Keith Basterfield reviewed the last 30 years of good UFO cases in Australia
e.g. Rev Browning, Tasmania, 1960; Valentich; Rosedale; and Mundrabilla.
Keith explored the Australian abduction experience and illustrated this with
two South Australian cases, one of which involves possible evidence of an
alien implant.  See Keith's recent IUR article on this case.

The weekend was an excellent opportunity for the exchange of ideas
between serious Australian researchers and Jerry and Jenny and cemented
relationship between UFORA and the two of them.

UFORA was promoted by literature about the organisation and its publications.
Steven Thorne, the publishers representative for UFORA's digitized book UFO
RESEARCH IN AUSTRALIA AND N.Z. was present throughout the weekend.  Steven
told Keith that the book on disc attracted a large amount of attention.  The
publishers are considering making the book on disc available in a MacIntosh
format.

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: UFO Research Australia, Administrator, Adelaide - Aust. (9:1040/7)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Info: MUFONET UFO Newswire - Argentina,ET's and NASA
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 01:12:54 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 85
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2072 alt.conspiracy:7207 sci.skeptic:15224

The following is off of MUFONET:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------



Message #7683 - MUFONET
   Date : 17-Sep-91 21:54
   From : JOHN KOMAR
     To : All
Subject : UFO News-Wire

         MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                       UFO NEWS - WIRE
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

=START=   XMT: 18:06 Tue Sep 17  EXP: 18:00 Wed Sep 18

EXTRA-TERRESTRIALS BOOST TOURISM IN ARGENTINA AND INTERESTS
NASA

BUENOS AIRES (SEPT. 17) EFE - Residents of the Argentine
town of Victoria, accompanied by hundreds of tourists and
officials from the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space
Administration (NASA), are spending nights watching the
skies in hopes of spotting unidentified flying objects.

A television journalist said his camera crew had managed to
film the mysterious phenomenon last July.

"At first I thought it was a car or a tractor, but as we
were in the middle of a field I have no doubt that it was a
UFO," said Ramon Pereyra of Victoria's Channel 4 television
network.

Some 30,000 residents of the town, 320 km north of Buenos
Aires, have reported seeing strange lights and objects in
the sky.

Two weeks ago, a family in the town said it saw nine small
low-flying spaceships behind a larger vessel close to the
nearby Del Pescado lake.

The family said two human-looking shapes floated in the air
over the lake before returning to the spaceships which then
disappeared.

Following the reports, NASA experts moved into an abbey near
the town to observe the alleged extra-terrestrial
activities.

Hundreds of residents and tourists gather every weekend at
night at a bathing spot on the Parana river in the town to
try to spot the UFOs.

And after keeping quiet for six years, local resident Gladys
Rignoni confessed that she had seen two oval-shaped multi-
colored spaceships with three legs hovering over her farm on
the outskirts of Victoria.

But local police chief Carlos Gongora raised his voice in
skepticism.

"Those who have a nose for business and sell souvenirs of
Victoria are filling their pockets," he said.

=END=


Regards, John

---
 * Origin: Mutual UFO Network - MUFONET-BBS Network 901-785-4943 (1:123/26)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!SuperDave
From: [e-mail] (David A Coleman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 06:22:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 9

Hey,
    There have been many complaints about the lack of evidence in the
postings, but I don't see any evidence mentioned.  Does anybody know of any
untainted evidence?  I am very interested in looking at _real_ evidence, and
had hoped to find some here...

                        Dave

[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!sgraziano
From: [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 07:14:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 14
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15226 alt.paranormal:3108 alt.alien.visitors:2074 talk.religion.newage:6852

I thought the transcripts were a good read.  I stand on middle ground on
whether I believe it or not.  I am curious though about a couple things:

1.  How do Alien beings from another world (another time,place) know of
english words like "Shenanigans", "busters", and other slang terms when it
usually takes several years for a foreign person to just 'grasp' the language
much less learn the 'slang' terms for it?  (I don't think just using Barbara's
mind to do 'automatic' translations could do it, but I am open to any
explanations.

2.  On a more curious level, the transcripts talk about dracos, lizzies, etc.
Is there anything that elaborates on this? (Just a personal curiousity thing)

Steven Graziano, [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: MASS INTELLIGENCE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 14:50:13 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 27


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robotic Systems) writes...
>Just two ideas about crop circles:
>
>   : maybe our atmosphere is not only alive (with bacteria, etc...)
>   but also intelligent and organized! Maybe it is trying to communicate
>   with us
>
>   Also along the lines of mass, organized intelligence, is it possible
>   the whole human race is sub-conciensously trying to communicate as a
>   whole?

I believe you are correct.  I've thought those very concepts for a long time.

>
>Finally, does anyone know anymore about the giant objects found under-
>ground in Ogden, Utah?

No.. I'd like to know more though.  I seriously doubt that we are alone in
all this.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: MASS INTELLIGENCE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 14:50:31 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 20


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jacques Guy) writes...
>
>
>
>No, no, no, no! You've got it inside out! It's wheat that, after millions
>of years of natural selection and centuries of man-induced selection, has
>become intelligent and is trying to communicate with us.
>
>*** MAKING BREAD IS MURDER ***

:-) ... good one :-)


---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!rayssd!plw
From: [e-mail] (Paul L. White)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 13:50:20 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Raytheon Company, Portsmouth RI
Lines: 18

Watched Unsolved Mysteries last night (18 Sept) about the Air Force
encounter with alleged UFO's. I was interested how the program would
compare with the literature on the 1980 incident.

One glaring departure in the tv program from the literature was the
fact that several witnesses (the three airmen) reported that the
UFO that landed, leaving the three 1.5"deep by 7" diameter circular
depressions, was triangular in shape. The UFO shown on the program was
circular. . .artistic license?

There were other discrepancies that would either indicate poor research
or a change in story after 11 years.

=======================================================================
Paul
plw@rayssdb               My employer and I rarely
                                share opinions
=======================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!mrccrc!sgamble
From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wheat Circles and Confessors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 10:28:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, U.K.
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (The Chuckmeister) writes:
>
[stuff deleted]
>      Hmmm circles in a park..... hmmm is it just grass or something?
>
>      I remember a previous post.. why is all these things happening in
>      JUST wheat fields?? Why not corn, soybean, milo, beans, etc??
>
>
>      More unmarked black helicopters around the other night. Sheeez.
>
> The CHCKMEISTER
>
Circles do not only appear in wheat. Working from memory, circles have
been found in grass (Evenlode, Gloucestershire 1960; ?Tywell c1978),
in Oil Seed Rape (known in the U.S., I believe, as swagnam grass or
something similar) and a number of other crops.

Paranet recently carried an extensive report by James Black on a
circle from Iowa. I think this was in Corn (or Maize in the U.K.)
[please confirm Mike or James]

The (famous) Hertfordshire Mowing Devil report of 17-something is
suspected of being a circle in grass.

Steve.

--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services,
Clinical Research Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!uknet!stl!stc!fsb
From: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: MASS INTELLIGENCE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 11:31:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (System Administration)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robotic Systems) writes:
>
>2) Also along the lines of mass, organized intelligence, is it possible
>   the whole human race is sub-conciensously trying to communicate as a
>   whole? I know this sounds far out, but I think something like this
Try reading all the FOUNDATION books by ASIMOV then you will understand
GAIA, which is what you are intimating.

Yes I believe it exists but everyone will have to meditate as one....
Fat chance of that ever happening!!

--
Frank Stuart-Brown, Dept 31700, Customer Services,
<[e-mail]>  ||  !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb
[e-mail]
Tel [phone]  ||  [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!tulane!uflorida!fnord
From: fnord (Yes that's right)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,alt.cyberpunk
Subject: MEBON
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 16:45:05 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: fnord!
Organization: Radio Crash Test Dummies
Lines: 9
Xref: ns-mx alt.conspiracy:7224 sci.skeptic:15236 alt.alien.visitors:2080 alt.slack:1268 alt.cyberpunk:5749
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

Since I don't know who would be most qualified to discuss this, so it is being
crossposted in various places.  (If you know nothing about this, please
disregard it)

Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has an address or phone number or mail addr
or any kind of information about MEBON, the Mutual Easter Bunny Observation
Network (i think).  Any information would be appreciated.

Danke fnord
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi!caen!uwm.edu!src.honeywell.com!dienbienphu!gcary
From: [e-mail] (Greg Cary)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 18:14:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News interface)
Organization: Honeywell Systems & Research Center
Lines: 22
Nntp-Posting-Host: dienbienphu.src.honeywell.com

Here are some comments I have about the Bentwater case on Unsolved Mysteries
last night:

What ever happened to the camera man?  The Colonel asked for a camera man
but I guess he never showed up.
I wish they had done polygraph tests to add credibility.  The chance that
4 people could all pass a polygraph test is pretty slim.
They never did soil samples and never really said anything in detail about
the radiation levels.
As expected, the case was sensationalized in its presentation.  In particular,
I enjoyed the part where the UFO shines its light down and it makes noise.
(I don't remember them saying anything about it making noise).
All in all though, the case sounds pretty convincing.

Greg

--------------------------------------------------------
Greg Cary  MN65-2500             [e-mail]
Honeywell, Inc.                    office: [phone]
Systems & Research Center             FAX: [phone]
3660 Technology Drive
Minneapolis, MN 55418
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 17:35:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Paul L. White) says:
>
>Watched Unsolved Mysteries last night (18 Sept) about the Air Force
>encounter with alleged UFO's. I was interested how the program would
>compare with the literature on the 1980 incident.
>
>One glaring departure in the tv program from the literature was the
>fact that several witnesses (the three airmen) reported that the
>UFO that landed, leaving the three 1.5"deep by 7" diameter circular
>depressions, was triangular in shape. The UFO shown on the program was
>circular. . .artistic license?
>
>There were other discrepancies that would either indicate poor research
>or a change in story after 11 years.


Many discrepancies...  One of the biggest was something I saw presented on
HBO many years ago.  Colonel Halt's tape was played and the light from the
nearby lighthouse was displayed at the same time.  It was clear that his
observations of lights in the sky basically corresponded EXACTLY with the
period of the lighthouse.  Weren't they also claiming that they were
taken on board to repair the ship previously?  Anyone out there remember
the full body of evidence against this case.  The one debunker they had
on there was either paraphrased improperly (most likely) or just had
no personality.

>=======================================================================
>Paul
>plw@rayssdb               My employer and I rarely
>                                share opinions
>=======================================================================

Scott
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!pyrnj!pyramid!infmx!bruceb
From: [e-mail] (Bruce Barr)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 21:21:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.
Lines: 29
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15251 alt.paranormal:3118 alt.alien.visitors:2083 talk.religion.newage:6863

Dan,

I am interested in the transcripts.

if you have problems with a return to this message (it should be forwarded
to my regular mail box.) try the address included below.

Sorry to waste bandwidth everyone, e-mail just bounces.

Thanks,

BB

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                                       Questions? You can reach me at:        |
|  Bruce Barr                           [phone] voice                   |
|  International Product Planning       [phone] fax                     |
|  Informix Software, Lenexa Ks.        or e-mail me at:                       |
|                                                                              |
|  Applelink:D0357                      [e-mail]                    |
|  Compuserve:70075,1262                ...{uunet || pyramid}!informix!bruceb  |
|                                                                              |
|  It's a recession when your neighbor  Statistics are like a bikini.          |
|  loses his job;                       What they reveal is suggestive,        |
|  It's a depression when you lose      but what they conceal is vital.        |
|  yours.                                    Aaron Levenstein                  |
|      Harry S. Truman, 1958                                                   |
|                           I can't be a racist.  I'm black - Rev. Al Sharpton |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe
From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Doug and Dave on hoaxes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Sep 91 22:55:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Telegraph Row)
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: teton.uswest.com

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Valerie Westfall) writes:
>Yes, I too find it hard to imagine Doug and Dave travelling furiously around
>the world creating circles in foreign crops.  Uh, like maybe other people have
>been trying to make crop circles too. :-)  Maybe this explains why crop
>circles in other countries, for example Canada, are quite rough and even
>primitive in comparison to recent formations in England. Find me a complex
>formation (ie. an insectogram) in a country where no circles have previously
>appeared and THEN I'll be impressed. Maybe you should check Doug and Dave's
>passports while you're at it...(:-))2

I am new to this group but I have 2 questions.

   1)  If the aliens don't want to be seen (i.e. I saw a show where the
       scientist's staked out a field for weeks, and found crop circles
       in the one behind them one day), why do they make impressions
       in the field.  Why would they leave physical evidence of a
       disturbance?

   2)  Why do they always go to a wheat/corn field, why not a potatoe
       field or a meadow?  Assuming they have a purpose to land in the
       wheat/corn field, couldn't they achieve what studies they wanted
       without so many landings (i.e. if they are studying wheat/corn)?

Joe
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!bagate!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Kansas disappearances
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Sep 91 03:30:11 GMT
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 14

Can anyone fill me in on the disappearance of two women and two daughters
of one of them in Russel County, Kansas?  The only thing I've heard so far
(just minutes ago on NBC) is that they were "studying" UFOs and rumors are
rampant that the aliens have snatched them.  The authorities aren't happy
about all the fuss and say that they've recently gotten some solid leads
but it's a bizarre case.  My gut feeling is that when the truth is known
it'll probably be a Messianic cult like the so-called "Gulf Breeze Six",
but I'd be a lot more comfortable with better information.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Sep 91 07:53:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 80
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15262 alt.alien.visitors:2086

Steve Reiser comments

>In the mid-1960s I had strong interest which I dropped because not one
>shred of convincing evidence came forth to indicate that unidentified
>flying objects were in fact the space craft of extraterrestrial beings.
>To my knowledge this is still the current state of affairs on the subject.

Okay, I have pulled myself down off the roof, I have counted to 20 a hundred
times.  I promise I am going to do my absolute best to stay calm.  Have you
studied at all the case of Billy Meier? How many of the over 500 photos have
you seen?

I want to quote Wendelle Stevens comments on the inside cover of the seventh
book published on the most incredible and documented UFO case in history.

MESSAGE FROM THE PLEIADES BOOK 2 The Contact Notes of Eduard Billy Meier

For over a decade the most thorough investigation in the history of the UFO
phenomenon has been centered around a Swiss farmer, his claims of
extraterrestrial contacts and the physical documentation that supports his
statements. Extensive research has been unable to detect any form of trickery
or manipulation of the hard evidence supplied by the extraterrestrial visitors

Proving or disproving is no longer an issue; it is now time to move into a
previously untouched arena . . . What can be learned from these amazing
experiences?

Certainly the possibility of an alien culture visiting Earth would allow for
differing, sometimes opposing, perspectives of values and ideals we
incorporated into our social structure. This is not indicative that either
point of view is true or false but, instead, presents information which helps
us understand the beliefs, culture and history of a distant neighbor. After
all, the strength of one's  knowledge depends on the desire to discover.

 end quote

Now for a list of documents on the Meier case

Books
U.F.O. ... Contact from the Pleiades Vol. 1 (now in its third printing)
U.F.O. ... Contact from the Pleiades Priliminary Investigation Report
U.F.O. ... Contact from the Pleiades Vol. 2 (out of print)
Message From the Pleiades Vol 1
U.F.O. ... Contact from the Pleiades Supplementary Investigation Report
Message From the Pleiades Vol 2
Light Years by Gary Kinder

Videos

Contact A docudrama on the case
Beamship Trilogy including 3 videos
The Investigation
The Movie Footage
The Metal

The Videos are available from
Genesis III Publishing
P.O. Drawer JJ
Munds Park, Az. 86017

Some of the books are available from
UFO Photo Archives
P.O. Box 17206
Tucson, Az. 86017

My name is mentioned in the acknowledgements at the end of the video Contact
for the work I did with the investigators in 1979 and 1980.  I am amazed that
people are using the notion that it is  to good to by true as a criteria for
rejecting the case or not looking at the evidence. This contact is one of the
most monumental events to happen on this planet,  simply because it is so well
documentated and investigated.

I have heard the story of the witch doctor having to teach the mexican indians
to SEE the spanish ships coming.  Since the indians did not believe in the
ships they could not see them.  Okay, I will be a witch doctor and say that
maybe since you don t believe that there can be any intelligence besides earth
humans, that you may be keeping yourself from experiencing the ample evidence.
What sacred beliefs is seeing the pictures going to upset?

Don Showen
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hey, Don Allen.
Keywords: smirk
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Sep 91 06:13:04 GMT
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In article <richmo_c.685222299@kultarr> [e-mail] (Craig Richmond) writes:
>Let me take a stab in the dark here.
>
>Your site doesn't charge you per kilobyte posted does it :-)
>
>But aside from that, some of the things are interesting and I think its
>great you go to the time to do it.
>
>Craig Richmond
>[e-mail]

Thanks!

It's a private system and I do try and space out the postings so
I don't incur the wrath of the Sysadmin :-)

I've compiled an extensive library over the last few years and just
feel it needs to be shared and discussed with others. Maybe it will
encourage some of you to look a bit deeper and do some investigation
on your own.

Don







--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
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From: [e-mail] (Jack Sinclair)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Sep 91 15:18:39 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> Scott the Great <[e-mail]> writes:
>Many discrepancies...  One of the biggest was something I saw presented on
>HBO many years ago.  Colonel Halt's tape was played and the light from the
>nearby lighthouse was displayed at the same time.  It was clear that his
>observations of lights in the sky basically corresponded EXACTLY with the
>period of the lighthouse.  Weren't they also claiming that they were

What is 'EXACTLY' ?

>taken on board to repair the ship previously?  Anyone out there remember
>the full body of evidence against this case.  The one debunker they had
>on there was either paraphrased improperly (most likely) or just had
>no personality.
>
>
>Scott

The debunker on the show shifted his eyes so fast, and so often, I kept
wondering what he was trying to hide from us.  All his body language said
was 'do not believe me'.
As for the lighthouse explanation: how could these people, having worked at
this place countless times before, suddenly see a lighthouse beam as an
alien device, and yet never again (except for the two other episodes)?


Jack.
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff Orrok)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kansas disappearances
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Sep 91 16:34:53 GMT
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[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
> it'll probably be a Messianic cult like the so-called "Gulf Breeze Six",

Gulf Breeze Six?  Is this related to the Gulf Breeze sightings?  I haven't
heard of this before.
--
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" -- marx
"From each according to his naivete, to each according to his greed" -- me
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (David O Hunt)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Sep 91 18:20:14 GMT
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>I have heard the story of the witch doctor having to teach the mexican indians
>to SEE the spanish ships coming.  Since the indians did not believe in the
>ships they could not see them.  Okay, I will be a witch doctor and say that
>maybe since you don t believe that there can be any intelligence besides earth
>humans, that you may be keeping yourself from experiencing the ample evidence.
>What sacred beliefs is seeing the pictures going to upset?

I would say, and believe most would agree with me, that alien contact would be
a marvelous thing.  Imagine the counterpoints, the opinions, the culture, and
the philosophy to be gained, not to mention additional technology.  Why WOULD
there be an interest in hiding these things?????

As has been raised before, if aliens really are here, why not contact us in a
way to really make us sit up and notice?  It's kind-of like proof of a divine
being...if one exists and wants to be knowm, _how hard could it be to do so?_

A large shaceship landing at Dulles Airport would do nicely.  Perhaps leaflets
distributed on a material that we humans couldn't make as yet.  LOTS of ways
to _unambiguously and clearly_ say "We are here."  What's with this skulking
about?  Why NOT contact national leaders?  Why NOT make a public appearance?
Are they afraid of us?  Surely aliens who can cross the gulf between stars have
means of defending themselves against our weapons.  What is to be gained by
hiding if you want to make contact?

And if they don't want to make contact, they shouldn't be seen in the first
place.  Imagine if we wanted to spy on a tribe of primitives in a jungle.  With
our technological advantages they'd have no WAY of knowing we were watching if
we did it right.

So where's the PROOF?  Not photos, not anecdotes.  Where is a room-temperature
superconductor?  Where is a material whose strength far exceeds anything we
have today?  Well?  If they want to be known, WHERE IS THEIR PROOF THAT
THEY ARE
HERE?????

David Hunt
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Sep 91 20:39:31 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:
>
>Steve Reiser comments
>
>>In the mid-1960s I had strong interest which I dropped because not one
>>shred of convincing evidence came forth to indicate that unidentified
>>flying objects were in fact the space craft of extraterrestrial beings.
>>To my knowledge this is still the current state of affairs on the subject.
>
>Okay, I have pulled myself down off the roof, I have counted to 20 a hundred
>times.  I promise I am going to do my absolute best to stay calm.  Have you
>studied at all the case of Billy Meier? How many of the over 500 photos have
>you seen?

If you want to raise a strong case for UFO's, stick to Bentwaters and the
disappearance of that pilot in Australia.  Billy Meier is a FOOL, period.
He runs a cult.  If you worship him, he will let you hear his pro-alien
drivel.  He once produced a sample of material that may have produced
anomalous test results, but that same sample has mysteriously disappeared...
I have read Light Years.  Someone posted an EXCELLENT rebuttal
of ALL of its points on sci.skeptic several years ago.  I have seen his
films.  They don't impress me.  I did better effects in High School with
vintage 1960's Black and White video equipment and an ancient switcher.
You couldn't see any wires in the movies I made either so I must have had
contact with spacemen, right?  They shot laser beams too, and it's impossible
that it was simply a cheap rainbow effect off of an atari 800, isn't it?
These were made roughly in the same time frame as Billy Meier's crap.
And MY GOD, I had STUNNING footage of a near flyby of the moon!  Ever
see Billy Meier produce anything like that?  All I ever see is what looks
like a model with a gyroscope in it wobbling around a tree. >WOW<...
Kneel before me!  I am the Great ZONTAR!  I have the SECRET KNOWLEDGE!
Meanwhile back in reality, here are some other anecdotes...

I suppose the models of UFOs found on his farm were simply dramatic
recreations of the actual events of his life, and not at all evidence of
forgery?

And just where is that transmogrifier that Popi gave to him?  If he
can shoot trees with it (What an eco-terrorist!) why can't he produce
it for inspection?

Doesn't the cult on his farm raise your hackles even the eensiest bit?
Can you say Jim Jones?  Can you say Him and Her?  Can you say Biosphere II?
Admittedly, he's a bit less harmful than the above, but do you accept any
outrageous claim about events as the actual truth unless you were actually
there to disprove it?


Overall, Billy Meier reminds me a lot of the dude who claimed he found an
ancient device inside a geode and produced some nifty pictures of the geode
itself, but never released it for examination by >ANYONE<.  Wanna buy some
land?  The Atarian Federation will soon be landing there to create crop
polyhedra in an effort to finally show that you CAN square the circle.
Don't miss it!  Send your money today!

Scott Le Grand
"I'm Popi the UFO man!  BEEP!  BEEP!"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!sdd.hp.com!apollo!mcn
From: [e-mail] (Michael McNulty)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Sep 91 21:07:26 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET posting account)
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Having just finished watching the "Unsolved Mysteries" segment about
the Bentwater case, I have a couple of comments and a couple of
questions.

I though that the presentation of the case was extremely poorly done.
I'm not saying that the case isn't valid; I'm saying that the show
presented it badly.  They took 20 minutes to show what could have
been shown in 5 minutes.  I had a feeling that maybe they had bought
new special effects' machines for this season, so they had to use
them.  I can't stand "dramatic re-enactments" anyway, and this was a
good example of why.  I thought that the soldiers and Col. Halt were
good in their interviews.  Why "re-enact" what they can tell you?  I
think that their testimony was much more dramatic than the staged
stuff.  Anyway, the poor quality of the show raised these questions
for me:

The Colonel mentioned that he brought a photographer out with him.
What happned to him?  Did he take any pictures?  Did they come out?

The guy with the Geiger counter (or whatever it was) was all over the
place measuring everything, but only once could you hear him say
anything about getting high readings.  Were all of the other readings
(the landing circles that made up a triangle, the trees, etc.) all
normal?

The show made a big deal about them coming upon a farm house while
they were tracking the light.  The house was described as glowing, as
though it were on fire inside.  The narrator seemed to indiacte that
the soldiers were surprsied that they had come upon this house.  How
could soldiers on a base not know what was in the immediate vicinity
of their camp?  It wasn't a tiny lean-to or shack.  It was shown as a
two-story house.  Also, why was there no mention of anyone exploring
the house?  Did they?  Did anyone go in?  Who lives there?   What
became of this?  I can't imagine that nobody checked it out.

Like I said, the show ended up annoying me by raising these questions
and then not bothering to follow up on them.  Do any of you know the
answers to any of these questions?

Thanks a lot,

Mike
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!netcomsv!shoup
From: [e-mail] (Richard Shoup)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Summary: conclusion jumping considered useless
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Sep 91 23:07:24 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David O Hunt) writes:
>
> As has been raised before, if aliens really are here, why not contact us in a
> way to really make us sit up and notice?  It's kind-of like proof of a divine
> being...if one exists and wants to be knowm, _how hard could it be to do so?_
> ...
> What is to be gained by hiding if you want to make contact?
> ...
> And if they don't want to make contact, they shouldn't be seen in the first
> place.
> ...
> So where's the PROOF?  Not photos, not anecdotes.  Where is a room-temperature
> superconductor?  Where is a material whose strength far exceeds anything we
> have today?  Well?  If they want to be known, WHERE IS THEIR PROOF THAT
> THEY ARE HERE?????
>

Answers to this FAQ are easy and have been speculated upon for a long time:
If -- and I stress IF -- an alien civilization has been visiting, they
realize that overt direct contact would cause widespread panic, or at
least major disruptions on earth.  Instead, they could be gradually
making their presence known in more and more visible ways.  Or, they
may have other less-benign reasons...

In any case, just because WE can't make sense of the behavior and
interactions of a (presumably advanced) culture doesn't seem
like a good reason to dismiss them, does it?  Like it or not, this
stuff is really happening.  A lot of these reports are nonsense,
but many are undeniable.

We would all do well, I think, to avoid jumping to easy conclusions
and try to think more deeply about what's going on here.  I would
recommend Jacque Vallee's books as a good starting point for this.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe
From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 )
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Sep 91 23:18:15 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David O Hunt) writes:
>
   stuff deleted

>I would say, and believe most would agree with me, that alien contact would be
>a marvelous thing.  Imagine the counterpoints, the opinions, the culture, and
>the philosophy to be gained, not to mention additional technology.  Why WOULD
>there be an interest in hiding these things?????
>
  stuff deleted

>David Hunt

Unfortunately I think humans need a large amount of time to incorprate new
technologies,  culture, and philosphy into their culture.  Think of the
technology shock we would experience with alien technologies, surely they
wouldn't be used for only good purposes.

I think a good example of this kind of shock is the American Indians.  Before
we encountered the different tribes of indians most had advanced cultures,
but were technological infants.  Then we introduced guns, horses,
metal tools, etc.  Their culture was almost destroyed, and they are still
recovering.  Not to say that this is the source of all of their problems,
but it must have contributed greatly to them.

Then there are the Nukes, we dropped them on Japan without knowing for sure
what would happen during the explosion, much less after the explosion.
However this didn't stop us from doing it.

Unfortunately technology is a double sided sword, and it appears humans are
not capable of dealing with both edges.

Joe
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Sep 91 04:55:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 52

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Jack Sinclair) says:
>
>In article <[e-mail]> Scott the Great
><[e-mail]> writes:
>>Many discrepancies...  One of the biggest was something I saw presented on
>>HBO many years ago.  Colonel Halt's tape was played and the light from the
>>nearby lighthouse was displayed at the same time.  It was clear that his
>>observations of lights in the sky basically corresponded EXACTLY with the
>>period of the lighthouse.  Weren't they also claiming that they were
>
>What is 'EXACTLY' ?

They played the tape and showed the lighthouse light at the same time.  They
synchronized it such that whenever the light passed by, Colonel Halt's voice
said "There it is again."  This happened basically EVERY TIME the light went
by.  I agree that he is one of the more qualified witnesses for this kind
of phenomena, but it was pretty convincing to me that he was mistken in this
case.

>>taken on board to repair the ship previously?  Anyone out there remember
>>the full body of evidence against this case.  The one debunker they had
>>on there was either paraphrased improperly (most likely) or just had
>>no personality.
>>
>>
>>Scott
>
>The debunker on the show shifted his eyes so fast, and so often, I kept
>wondering what he was trying to hide from us.  All his body language said
>was 'do not believe me'.

However, Unsolved Mysteries is not exactly an unbiased show.  Just look
at their treatment of the Gulf Breeze incident.  Have they ever updated
it and broadcast that models of UFOs just like the ones in the videotapes
were found in the guy who filmed them's attic?  Nah....

They're out for ratings, not the truth...

>As for the lighthouse explanation: how could these people, having worked at
>this place countless times before, suddenly see a lighthouse beam as an
>alien device, and yet never again (except for the two other episodes)?

This is the only mystery, but it's not impossible either.  What happened
to the photographer?  What happened to the geiger counter readings?
The impact marks are easily faked.  There just isn't enough evidence to
rate this anything beyond strange...

>
>Jack.

Scott
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From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Mt. Shasta Pt.1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Sep 91 22:55:09 GMT
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Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
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[e-mail] writes:

>
>      This information has been posted  for John Winston by Don Showen.
>      In my last trip to Phoenix for the  UFO Conference I had the opportunity
> to tape an couple of people named Shield and Sharula Dux.   They claim to be
> from a city underneath Mt. Shasta called Telos.   This city has one and  one
> half million people.  They claim to have been there for the last l4 thousand
> years when they came from Lemuria in the Pacific after it  sunk beneath the
> ocean.  The man is from New England, in America but the lady was born  in
> Telos.   They do operate some of the space ships that are seen in our skies.
> The overall leader of their space fleet is called  Ashtar and a command of on
> of their fleet called the Silver fleet is called Anton.
>      I ll leave you with this saying; Anybody who s as  sound as a dollar
> these days had better see a doctor. Standard Disclaimer. John.


        You know, we oughta pay attention to this story. Why? I know a lot of
locals who went to the Rainbow Gathering this summer, and nearly all of them
came back, acid-fried, and gibbering about how aliens live in a city under
Mount Shasta. One person told me, breathlessly, how the aliens moved the
entire mountain TEN FEET TO THE LEFT to demonstrate their power. Another also
talked at length about visiting power centers at the center of the Pyramid
through astral projection. (When I asked, "Which Pyramid?" this person didn't
know what I was talking about... and didn't believe me when I told him that
there was more than _one_ Pyramid.)

        I get the feeling Mount Shasta's going to be the Next New Age
Hilarity Source. This should be fun.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
[e-mail]                     "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!mips!pacbell.com!pacbell!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: High-tech artifacts near Ogden?
Summary: High-tech artifacts near Ogden?
Keywords: High-tech artifacts near Ogden?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Sep 91 01:45:38 GMT
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Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
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Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

Re: <[e-mail]>

> Hello everyone.  We have just heard about an object found approximately
> 640 feet under the earth while excavating for room to store radioactive
> waste.  The object is from 25 to 40 feet in height and there are
> apparently 9 of them in a row on a north-south line.  There are photos
> of it which I have yet to see, but OMNI and several other news services
> are doing their damndest to get the photos and/or more info.  The site
> is around Ogden, UTAH, so if anyone there knows about such an
> excavation, please give us the details.  The Ogden newspaper has not
> knowledge of such activity or such a discovery.  When we get the
> photos, we will digitize them for those interested.  I'll probably get
> in trouble for mentioning even this little bit of data but we would
> really like info if you know anything.  The object has gears and
> appears to be a machine or a part of one.  One guy says it looked like
> a gimbal to him though I have yet to see it to confirm.  The story
> and photos comes from a scientist working with the Super-Collider
> through a mutual friend.  That scientist was flown out to the site to
> see what he thought the thing was.  It is made of an unknown metal or
> alloy and cannot be welded or cut.  We question how they could take
> such an enormouse object from 640 feet down to the surface since it
> must weigh many tons.  There is speculation that since it is such an
> unknown metal, it might be lightweight like some of the fragments from
> crashed UFOs are supposed to be.  Guess I'm in hot water now but you
> guys might furnish more detailed info....I will try to get the
> pictures so everyone can see it.....Jerry

Has anyone obtained any more information on this?  If so, would you
please be so kind as to email me at the below address?

Thank you.

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!torsqnt!geac!maccs!physun!bunker
From: [e-mail] (Alex Bunker)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Implant story#1 - Off MUFONET "Contact" echo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Sep 91 21:05:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dept. of Physics, McMaster Univ., Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>I found this while reading the MUFONET "Contact" BBS UFO echo
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>Message #7610 - CONTACT
>   Date : 17-Sep-91  0:30
>   From : Bob Ross
>     To : Sandy Barbre
>Subject : Re: Abductions
>Replies : #6282 <--> #7611
>
>Sandy,
>     Always good to hear from you! When I use the word abduction, I mean that
>they physically take me away. I am not sure if any experiments are being done
>on me. The only experiments that I know of to date is on my implants. My first
>implant was put up through my right nostril and I woke up for the next couple
>of days with a bloody nose. A couple of months ago I was implanted again but
>this time it was put through my left ear.

I will believe you when you go to the doctor, have your implant removed and
show it to an acreditted engineer, and have him publish an article on the
technology involved in this implant and demonstrate that it comes from a
civilization far more advanced than our own.

> I have no idea if the other implant
>was removed or not. I have not had a bloody nose since that abduction. For
>some reason I still can not remember my abductions except for being taken and
>being put back. Usually about 3 to 7 days after the abduction I start seeing
>images and remember some things. I can't remember of any experiments except
>for the implants. I do remember them takeing me to some planet (I think). It
>was a very dry and brown place with a very dark purple sky. I remember being
>taken by one or two "greys" to a dark grey or black pyramid shape structure.
>There were two greys guarding this structure. A grey approached the two that
>were takeing me and told them that I was not ready. I was able to talk and
>somehow convince them that I was ready to enter the structure. I think that
>the grey meant that I was not ready to enter the structure. It seemed to be of
>some significant importance to them. I remember going in room after room. I
>was quite startled when I saw a lot of human parts. I really started to get
>afraid. Finally I ended up into some far off room with a few greys, a human,
>and a blond hair-blue eyed female. She looked human but I really don't think
>that she was. She pulled out a black box from a shelf. I have no idea what
>this black box was but I have never been so afraid of something in my life.
>The next thing I know is that I am back in my bed sweating and afraid. I know
>that this sounds like a movie of some sort but It was a real experience. Can
>you offer any help and do you know of anyone with a similiar experience?
>Thank's for everything.
>                           Confused,
>                                 Bob Ross

see a psichiatrist you are either schizofrenic or a pathological liar or
you have an implant to show me. One of the three which is it!

>--- QuickBBS 2.75 Ovr (Gamma-2)
> * Origin: Pegasus of Orion [phone] Ltd HRS:18:00-6:30 (MDT) (1:128/94)
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Don
>
>
>--
>-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
>USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
>UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
>UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?

ALEX BUNKER
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Marrs & End of world in 1997?
Summary: Marrs & End of world in 1997?
Keywords: Marrs & End of world in 1997?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Sep 91 01:41:30 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 67
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra


Re: <[e-mail]>

> A fellow at work told me of an author by the surname Marrs who says that
> computers will become the device of the devil; that things bad will start
> happening about 1997; that the devil will take the form of a human and do
> miraculous things, then doublecross humankind and cause armageddon.
>
> Anyone know more about this?  About books by Marrs?  I am intrigued by all
> this.

    I have not heard anything more about this.  Anyone care to email
    me with more information?

    I have studied prophesy for the last 22 years.  It all started
    with Edgar Cayce, went into Biblical, St. Malachi (there are
    only two popes left before the end), Mayan, Hindu, Buddhist,
    Nostradamus (they just found 100 new quantrains behind a brick
    wall in the basement of one of the houses he used to live in:
    He said that world war would be in full swing by mid 1997),
    and so on.

        The latest is Gordon-Michael Scallion.  His current accuracy rate
        is 97%.  He has several tapes and can be reached at:

        Matrix Institute
        RR1 Box 391
        Westmoreland, NH 03467

        Earth Changes Report Newsletter         $59.95  (monthly)
        Tape I: Earth Changes America           included with Newsletter
                                                subscription or 11.95
        Tape II: Economic Survival America       11.95
        Shipping & Handling                       2.75

        The tapes cover 1991-1997.

        Gordon-Michael Scallion says that the Hayward fault (in California)
    will cause the state of California to be the Isles of California
    and Pheonix will be a seaport.  "Ocean-front property" in Arizona?
    Among many other things.

        Sun Bear says only invest in real estate that you can grow your own
        food on.  This is, of course, if the real estate is in a "safe" place.

    Then, of course, there is this (supposedly) Meitraya character
    outside of London that is supposed to come on TV world-wide and
    proclaim himself the messiah ....

        Even Billy Meier (this IS the alt.alien.visitors newsgroup) received a
        book of information on prophesy from his physical contact with the
        Pleiadean cosmonaut Semjase.  It is only in German.  I have ordered a
        copy.  I have a friend that will be with Billy in a few days.  We
        have permission to translate and publish it (and any other of Billy`s
    German-only books) with Wildflower Press in Oregon if we can work
    something out.  So, it will be interesting to see what the
    extraterrestrails say about our future.  Remember, they took Billy back
    in time on several occaisions.  The craft that they traded the
    Timmers for from the Daal universe (I have a photograph of it) also
    has the capacity to go into the future.  So, if they've already
    been there ....

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  ALIENS
Summary: Re:  ALIENS
Keywords: Re:  ALIENS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Sep 91 01:42:25 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 28
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

Re:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
      <[e-mail]>

>Its funny how the greys have a similar look to the aliens of the movie
>CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND.

The Greys in this movie, as well as the tall insect-like creatures, were an
exact replication of hundreds of eye-witness accounts prior to the time the
movie was made.  That's why they are there.  The producer did his
homework.  Why didn`t you?

>Why have we not heard anything about greys prior to this movie? hmmm?

Try looking at the facts.  There is direct evidence, including public
photographs, since 1947.  Most people that make rash comments like this
are those that have not looked at the facts, reviewed the evidence or
cared to do any research at all, but, unfortunetely for the public,
and, fortunately for the Secret Government, they believe that which is
not true.  This reminds me of the people at NASA and JPL that bad mouth
Hoagland in regards to the face on Mars without ever looking at any
of the data that he has.  If, after reveiwing the data, you wish to
beleive it's crazy, fine.  But don`t do it until after.

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Strange Dreams..
Summary: Strange Dreams..
Keywords: Strange Dreams..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Sep 91 01:43:06 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 17
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra


Re: <[e-mail]>

> Does it mean anything if you keep having strange dreams with Aliens/UFO's in
> them?  Or is just an over active imagination?

Some investigators would say that you are having a "screen memory".
Some people find the experience so intense that they can only remember it as
a dream.  Some people are hypnotized by the Greys and/or the United States
Air Force to forget it all and if they do remember, it will be "only a
dream".  Then, of course, maybe it IS only a dream ...

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Who's seen a 'Grey' ?
Summary: Who's seen a 'Grey' ?
Keywords: Who's seen a 'Grey' ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Sep 91 01:43:59 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 33
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

Re:  <[e-mail]>

> Id be extremely skeptical of anyone who claimed to see one of these "people".

    This does, I assume, include the U.S. Secret Government?

> First of all, admitting that you thought you saw one would be tantamount
> to admitting insanity or lying.

    This statement is a testament to the success of the government`s
    "insane" cover-up of the truth by "lying" to the American public.
    This statement reminds me of the Catholic Church burning people
    at the stake for believing the world was round.

> Second, I think that an overriding factor in such an experience, if we
> are to believe the evidence already presented, is that you would
>    a)  Not remember the experience
>    b)  As the experience would fall so completely outside the realm of
>        normal existence, you would not believe it was "real"

    This appears to be true.

> Maybe hypnosis helps here. Although, maybe all hypnosis does is to help
> you believe your fantasies are real.

    Tell that to the police and courts that use hypnosis to convict
    criminals.

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Marrs & End of world in 1997?
Summary: Marrs & End of world in 1997?
Keywords: Marrs & End of world in 1997?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Sep 91 01:44:51 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 19
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

Re:  <[e-mail]>

>        In  other  words  nks get a life  and  take  this  discussion  to
>        alt.bullshit.
>
>        Steve

Ah, another brainwashed American citizen.  They are everywhere.  I do
not feel so bad about Bryan Woodworth's searching for an answer to the
truth, or that Steve Timpson has his head in the sand, but that I have to
live in a country that perpetuates dishonesty by intentionally lying
to those that support it.  I feel sad for this country when I read things
like this.

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Pseudosurvey
Summary: Pseudosurvey
Keywords: Pseudosurvey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Sep 91 01:46:24 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 30
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

Re:  <[e-mail]>

>        Having been "lurking" for a few weeks, I would really like to
>        know how many of you people posting these "grays" articles
>        actually believe that there's a govt-ET conspiracy to stop
>        valid data on this sort of stuff.

    Well, having spent some time with many investigators,
    I guess that Stanton sums it up best when he says that if it
    were a murder trial, the evidence would be so overwhelming
    that the only verdict would be guilty.

>     I don't mean to flame or
>        ridicule anyone, but you gotta admit some of this stuff is
>        way out there.

    Again, another American that has not reviewed the facts.  If
    only people would get off their duffs and buy some books, go
    to some lectures, talk to abductees, etc., before making
    silly statements like the above, then, perhaps the so-called
    hundredth monkey syndrome would manifest and cause a
    shift in consciousness allowing the government to tell the truth
    and thereby balance the natural earth forces.  Ah well, I guess
    I can dream ....

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Pseudosurvey
Summary: Pseudosurvey
Keywords: Pseudosurvey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Sep 91 01:47:32 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 47
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

Re:  <[e-mail]>

> That stuff is so far
> out, and it just sits there with all these outrageous claims and no real
> support that I just read it and groan.  If (emphasis on if) any one of these
> files contained a grain of truth in it, there would be no way for us (sitting
> each of us at our respective terminals) to be able to separate the one grain
> of truth from all the paranoia and hype and various ramblings of emotionally
> unstable individuals.

Admittedly, there is a lot of nonsense out there.  Unfortunately, it`s
created by our own government.  I reiterate again, here is another
American that has not done his homework.  I challenge you to go out
review the facts before making bold statements of denial.

> And all the bizarre stories that leak out are the horrible perversions of the
> real truth.  The real truth is not that we are being invaded, but that there
> is something really weird living on the same planet as us (maybe always has
> been here), but you can't grab it and hold it.  It always has a way of
> slipping away, like a leprechaun or something.

The only "really weird" thing living here are those that have their head
in the sand and, yup, you guessed it, the Secret Government.  If only the
SG would come clean, then we would not have to have these unknowledgeable
postings.  Perhaps your "leprechaun or something" is really a Grey?

> There are so many military personnel who know about parts of the mystery that
> it is getting harder and harder to keep it all secret.  But what happens is
> that a secret that gets whispered in dark places to paranoid people comes out
> bearing little resemblance to the reality that it originally reflected.

I couldn't agree more.  Just remember JANAP 146, I`m sure they do.  This is
the governments way of blackmailing these people.  If a military person
signs the Joint Army Navy AirForce protocol and report publically a UFO or
IAC, then they lose their military benefits, get a $10,000 fine and a not so
honorable discharge.  Who would YOU tell?  I bet that some of these people
are reading this now and they wish they could find a way to tell the people
that pay them (us, their mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles,
friends) the truth.  I suppose that if I advocated them telling
secrets, that I may get a visit from an undesirable.  So, even I am
intimidated from advocating truth in government.  Interesting, eh what?

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!noao!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries
Message-ID: <1991Sep20.153646.14915@anasaz>
Date: 20 Sep 91 15:36:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 38

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Greg Cary) writes:
]>Here are some comments I have about the Bentwater case on Unsolved Mysteries
]>last night:
]>
]>What ever happened to the camera man?  The Colonel asked for a camera man
]>but I guess he never showed up.
]>I wish they had done polygraph tests to add credibility.  The chance that
]>4 people could all pass a polygraph test is pretty slim.
]>They never did soil samples and never really said anything in detail about
]>the radiation levels.
]>As expected, the case was sensationalized in its presentation.  In particular,
]>I enjoyed the part where the UFO shines its light down and it makes noise.
]>(I don't remember them saying anything about it making noise).
]>All in all though, the case sounds pretty convincing.
]>
Well, they left out a couple of things.  It was foggy on the nights in
question and there was a light house not far away.  Many skeptics have
pointed out that the cycle and duration of the"pulsing" lights seen were
in sync with the beacon on the lighthouse. The "beams", according to the
skeptics, were meteors. (The TV show pointed out there was a meteor
shower that night) I've heard the tape but don't remember when or where.
I'll check my library this weekend.

CNN covered this event pretty extensively and I've got that on tape. Their
recreation was a little less sensational and the light house theory is much
easier to see.

This presentation on Unsolved Mysteries did not match my understanding of
what I had heard called the "Brentwood Landing."  Is there another case
at the same place at about the same time?  I had heard some airmen had come
forward to say they were part of a heavy security detail that surrounded an
area in the woods where a UFO landed.  The story is that one of the occupants
came out and "communicated" with a high ranking military official. Does
anyone know anything about that one?
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!noao!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries
Message-ID: <1991Sep20.154706.15485@anasaz>
Date: 20 Sep 91 15:47:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 41

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott the Great) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Paul L. White) says:
... stuff deleted ...
]>>
]>>One glaring departure in the tv program from the literature was the
]>>fact that several witnesses (the three airmen) reported that the
]>>UFO that landed, leaving the three 1.5"deep by 7" diameter circular
]>>depressions, was triangular in shape. The UFO shown on the program was
]>>circular. . .artistic license?
]>>
]>>There were other discrepancies that would either indicate poor research
]>>or a change in story after 11 years.
]>
]>Many discrepancies...  One of the biggest was something I saw presented on
]>HBO many years ago.  Colonel Halt's tape was played and the light from the
]>nearby lighthouse was displayed at the same time.  It was clear that his
]>observations of lights in the sky basically corresponded EXACTLY with the
]>period of the lighthouse.  Weren't they also claiming that they were
]>taken on board to repair the ship previously?  Anyone out there remember
]>the full body of evidence against this case.  The one debunker they had
]>on there was either paraphrased improperly (most likely) or just had
]>no personality.
]>
Yeah, now I remember.  I believe it was CNN, not HBO but I knew I had heard
the tape.  Their presentaion showing the lighthouse period over the Colonel's
remarks was pretty convincing.  Every time the beam swept around they started
ooing and ahing and as it swept away, they thought the UFO was climbing away.
On one occasion, as the beam swept landward, you could hear someone say "it's
coming down again."

And I remember reports about airman being taken aboard to help repair the
UFO in addition to the "meeting" I mentioned in a previous post.

I'm pretty convinced this was a light house sighting that has taken on some
embellishments over the years.


--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Gulf Breeze Six [was Re:  Kansas disappearances]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Sep 91 05:07:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 44

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Orrok) writes:
>[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>> it'll probably be a Messianic cult like the so-called "Gulf Breeze Six",
>
>Gulf Breeze Six?  Is this related to the Gulf Breeze sightings?  I haven't
>heard of this before.

It's loosely related, and I never saw or heard anything in the non-digital
media about it.  (Lots of people did, lots of people didn't, and there were
of course rumors that it was being covered up.    Bill English, no less, said
he had a friend in one of the wire services who told him that orders came
from somewhere to kill the story.)

Basically, six military intelligence types stationed in Augsburg (sp?)
Germany went AWOL and suddenly turned up in Gulf Breeze.  The story that
circulated was that they were waiting to kill the Antichrist (who he was
wasn't specified) and then meet Jesus in a UFO.  If I remember rightly,
they later denied it as something invented by someone other than
themselves but did admit to leaving Germany because they were frightened of
some paranormal phenomena there.  (No specifics on the phenomena.)  At
least one of them also wanted to meet Bill Cooper because their religious
ideas apparently matched his theories.

Then some of the media in the area suddenly received copies of a few UFO
pictures with parts cut out, and a message saying something like:  "TO THE
ARMY:  FREE THE GULF BREEZE SIX!  WE HAVE THE BOX OF 200 PLUS DOCUMENTS YOU
WANT.  NEXT WE SEND THE WHOLE PICTURES AND THEN EVERYTHING UNLESS YOU
COMPLY."

Unfortunately the last thing I heard was that they got off with much less
than the normal punishment (could be just the Army attempting to
disassociate themselves from them before people started asking how they got
in in the first place etc.) and no more pictures appeared.

This was all a year or two ago, I don't remember for sure.  I'm sure I have
the ParaNet traffic about it somewhere, but it's not worth finding right
now.  The only thing I can't remember is the exact date and the names of
the personnel involved.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!ipso!runxtsa!jason
From: [e-mail] (Jason Haines)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: MASS INTELLIGENCE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Sep 91 04:34:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: RUNX Un*x Timeshare.  Sydney, Australia.
Lines: 58

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robotic Systems) writes:
>Just two ideas about crop circles:
>
>1) I read somewhere that the atmosphere of Jupiter is considered one of the
>   most likely places we might find life in our solar system. This got me
>   thinking: maybe our atmosphere is not only alive (with bacteria, etc...)
>   but also intelligent and organized! Maybe it is trying to communicate
>   with us (ie. "Stop Polluting!"). Is Jupiter's (and Saturn & Uranus') Red
>   Spot another type of crop circle?

The entire planet is a living organism with humans, other animals, plants,
bacteria. The human body needs bacteria to aid digestion, and there are
millions of lifeforms on and inside every human.

The pictographic nature of the crop circles is clearly communication from
another form of life, perhaps at a higher level of consciousness.

As I see it, the life process that spawned on Earth is trying to reestablish
balance with it's smaller lifeforms. Humans are going down the path of the
dinosaurs that failed to understand.

Humans are the necessary lifeforms for transporting the Earth life process
across to another planet, Mars is a good candidate. Without a form of life
capable of travelling to other planets, Earthly life cannot spread.

If people can accept that Noah heard from God, why can't these same people
understand that the Earth speaks to us?

>2) Also along the lines of mass, organized intelligence, is it possible
>   the whole human race is sub-conciensously trying to communicate as a
>   whole? I know this sounds far out, but I think something like this
>   was part of the "Ghost Busters" movie... when everyone in NYC had
>   to think good thoughts to kill the evil spirits (or something like
>   that). Maybe collectively we are the "alien" intelligence causing
>   the crop circles!

Has anyone transcribed these crop-circles and tried to decode them?

>As crazy as these ideas sound, I am interested in any replys. Please
>post for all to read.

Your ideas are not crazy, I feel it too.

>Finally, does anyone know anymore about the giant objects found under-
>ground in Ogden, Utah?

No, tell us what you know.

>Clint Laskowski              Post Office Box 552, Cudahy, Wisconsin  53110-0552
>ROBOTIC SYSTEMS              INTERNET: [e-mail]  VOICE: [phone]

Jason

--
Jason Haines, aka Baron
INTERNET:[e-mail]  UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!jason
ACSNet:  [e-mail]
_______________________________________________________________________
Path: ns-mx!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!torsqnt!geac!maccs!physun!bunker
From: [e-mail] (Alex Bunker)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Sep 91 16:26:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dept. of Physics, McMaster Univ., Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA
Lines: 23
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15312 alt.alien.visitors:2110

In article <[e-mail]> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David O Hunt) writes:
>>I would say, and believe most would agree with me, that alien contact would be
>>a marvelous thing.  Imagine the counterpoints, the opinions, the culture, and
>>the philosophy to be gained, not to mention additional technology.  Why WOULD
>>there be an interest in hiding these things?????

Aliens would probably find us however quite boring. The dominant activity of
the human race is tribal warfare and we are still plagued with such
ignorance pestilences as religious faith and nationalism. When there is no
more dogma faith or bizarre feelings of belongings to arbitrary subgroups of
humanity and we have a culturally mixed  skeptical society with a moral fabric
based on reason and compassion alone and the dominant activities of the
human race are scientific searching and artistic creativity THEN the aliens
will have something to talk to us about. unfortunately sci.skeptic and
alt.atheism types are still outnumbered by silly UFO and PSI fairytalers
mentally confined faith adherers and pathetic flag waving tribalistic
patriots.

ALEX BUNKER

sorry just something that has been bothering me and I had to get it off my
chest.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!coplex!disk!unknown
From: [e-mail] (unknown)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Why bother?
Keywords: huh?  whuh?  hey-uhhh?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Sep 91 02:31:44 GMT
Organization: Digital Information Systems of KY
Lines: 48


     What leaders do any of you know of that would be worthy of talking
with another race of beings?  Suppose you were these guys..  Would you
want to muck around with our government.  Almost all meaningful contact
would end up being covered up and concealed from anyone who could really
benifit.
     I'm sort of unique in that I study both physics (quantum mostly) and
spiritual and unexplained phenomena..  Put together the ultimate weirdness
of quantum physics, where just the presence of observation affects the
simplest processes, and all that people have said about our abilities to
filter out what we don't want to see, and you've got the perfect
playground for the U F O s...  Noone can be sure what they are..  They
COULD be explainable by our present physics, but most people reading
alt.alien.visitors probably doubt that..  They could be illusions or
mental fatigue or disease or psycosis, but people who've "been there" say
no.  They could be the real mccoy, real "alien" visitors, but then again,
maybe not.
     Whatever they are, odds are that their ranks are devided.  There are
so many stories of coverups and mutiliations on one side, and so many
stories of personal encounters and good experiences on the other, that it
would seem to make sense that there are actually two or more factions at
work.  Some say "greys" are good, others that they are bad.  But we can't
very well make judgement unless we have firsthand experience, can we?
Think to yourselves.  How effective would it be for them to change the
world for the better by attending press conferences and meetings?  Could
they turn us around by letting themselves be caught on TV?  NO!!!!  If
they do exist, and they are visiting individuals, then perhaps they are
actually accomplishing SOMETHING...
     The situation can be compared to the computer world.  You can spend
all of your time trying to find someone who "runs" the net to implement
your new ideas, or you can simply implement them yourselves and let it
spread naturally.  All they have to do is affect a few people, and
eventually it'll spread.  Their intent, good or bad, is most likely what
they beleive is best.  It's doubtful that they're going to stop what
they're doing just so we feel comfortable.  Look at the way we've been
exploiting our wildlife for the past few hundred years.  Have we ever
stopped what we were doing and sat down and tried to learn to communicate
with the animals?  Not until recently have we begun to communicate with
some of the higher forms of earth beings..
     I just don't see George and Gorbi and some interesting space types
chatting in front of the fire anytime soon..  Perhaps we'll find out that
reality is alot less rigid than we thought.  Maybe Douglas Adams is a
prophet?!!  :)
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Shawn Beltz              :) :) :)   The opinions expressed in this message are
[e-mail]                   the opinions expressed in this message are
uunet!ukma!corpane!disk!unknown     the opinions expressed in this message....
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Sep 91 23:45:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 31


 > From: [e-mail] (Paul L. White)
 > Date: 19 Sep 91 13:50:20 GMT
 > Organization: Raytheon Company, Portsmouth RI
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
 >
 > Watched Unsolved Mysteries last night (18 Sept) about the Air Force
 > encounter with alleged UFO's. I was interested how the program would
 > compare with the literature on the 1980 incident.
 >
 > One glaring departure in the tv program from the literature was the
 > fact that several witnesses (the three airmen) reported that the
 > UFO that landed, leaving the three 1.5"deep by 7" diameter circular
 > depressions, was triangular in shape. The UFO shown on the program was
 > circular. . .artistic license?
 >
 > There were other discrepancies that would either indicate poor research
 > or a change in story after 11 years.

I would agree.  I would be curious about what other things you found out of
line?

Thanks,

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Kansas Disappearances
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Sep 91 23:53:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 28


 > Can anyone fill me in on the disappearance of two women and two
 > daughters
 > of one of them in Russel County, Kansas?  The only thing I've heard so
 > far
 > (just minutes ago on NBC) is that they were "studying" UFOs and rumors
 > are
 > rampant that the aliens have snatched them.  The authorities aren't
 > happy
 > about all the fuss and say that they've recently gotten some solid leads
 > but it's a bizarre case.  My gut feeling is that when the truth is known
 > it'll probably be a Messianic cult like the so-called "Gulf Breeze Six",
 > but I'd be a lot more comfortable with better information.

I used to have a correspondent in Russell, Kansas for the newspaper there.  I
will call her and see what details I can get.  Also, send me netmail and let
me know any other details about this.  As you may remember, Russell was a hot
bed of stuff concerning Dr. Scott Corder (Remember "The Four"?).  Anyway,
there were certain things going on that were very strange and "cultish" around
that place and I would love to hear more details.  I will post to you whatever
I learn.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wheat Circles And Confessors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Sep 91 23:46:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 15


 > Paranet recently carried an extensive report by James Black on a
 > circle from Iowa. I think this was in Corn (or Maize in the U.K.)
 > [please confirm Mike or James]

It was a corn field in Iowa Steve.

Cheers!

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!convex.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey
Keywords: Pseudosurvey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Sep 91 21:38:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:

>    Again, another American that has not reviewed the facts.  If
>    only people would get off their duffs and buy some books, go
>    to some lectures, talk to abductees, etc., before making

One could do the same thing with any number of groups, such as
channelers, crystal power people, psychics, ghost viewers, hollow earth
believers, flat earth beleivers, people who say they have beleive
in/seen/talked to God/Jesus/Virgin Mary, etc.  The evidence and
testimony would be as overwhelming.  How do you propose that I seperate
the wheat from the chaff?  Forgive me if I tend to call it all chaff.

From point of view, your own particular beliefs are no more or less
plausible than the many other things that humans have believed in for
thousands of years.
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com!ichips!intelhf!agora!krowell
From: [e-mail] (Keith Rowell)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Sep 91 16:31:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Lines: 34
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15326 alt.alien.visitors:2116

In article <[e-mail]> Scott the Great <[e-mail]> writes:


About faking UFO films:


I did better effects in High School with
>vintage 1960's Black and White video equipment and an ancient switcher.
>You couldn't see any wires in the movies I made either so I must have had
>contact with spacemen, right?  They shot laser beams too, and it's impossible
>that it was simply a cheap rainbow effect off of an atari 800, isn't it?
>These were made roughly in the same time frame as Billy Meier's crap.
>And MY GOD, I had STUNNING footage of a near flyby of the moon!  Ever
>see Billy Meier produce anything like that?  All I ever see is what looks
>like a model with a gyroscope in it wobbling around a tree. >WOW<...



Scott,

I wonder if you could do ufology a small service? Would you care
to send a good, clean copy of your best film faking UFOs to the
Mutual UFO Network? We would love to have a certified hoax UFO film
to study. Please certify it this way: (1) Typewrite a one or two page
description of your intent in making the hoax and all the technical
details you can remember of how you made the film. (2) Take this down
to a notary public and have it notarized. (3) Send the entire package to
this address: Walt Andrus, Mutual UFO Network, 103 Oldtowne Road,
Seguin, TX  78155-4099. If you decide to do this for ufology, be
sure to email me so I can give Walt a call and alert him that he will
be receiving this package. It is of course very important to us
MUFON investigators that we know the origin of potential UFO material.

What do you think, Scott?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!ijameson
From: [e-mail] (Iain Jameson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Implants, end of world, etc.
Keywords: naive, gullible.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Sep 91 00:47:13 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Iain Jameson)
Organization: Department of Physics, University of Adelaide, South Australia
Lines: 19
Nntp-Posting-Host: adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au

Has anyone else noticed that the themes that
continue to pop up on this group are also
plots for a number of sci-fi/fantasy novels
that came out about 10 years ago?

The implant one I cannot remember, but it has to
do with an ex nazi who is taking over the world
by implanting everyone. This guy lives in the antarctic
and is very old. Not a bad novel.

The end of the world/computer theme comes form a
Michael Crichton novel. Wish I could remember its title.
A great book.

Unless it is all a conspiricy by the secret US government.

Got to go, the greys want to go shopping.

Iain.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Sep 91 14:01:05 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 54


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David Jones) writes...
>Re:  <[e-mail]>
>
>>        In  other  words  nks get a life  and  take  this  discussion  to
>>        alt.bullshit.
>>
>>        Steve
>
>Ah, another brainwashed American citizen.  They are everywhere.  I do
>not feel so bad about Bryan Woodworth's searching for an answer to the
>truth, or that Steve Timpson has his head in the sand, but that I have to
>live in a country that perpetuates dishonesty by intentionally lying
>to those that support it.  I feel sad for this country when I read things
>like this.
>
>-------------------
>  David W. Jones
>  [e-mail] OR
>  uunet!wrs!davidj
>-------------------

        Dear Mr.  Jones
        After reading some of your previous  notes here you need to see a
        shrink.  No doubt you believe every dooms dayer that comes along.
        I have a very open mind but when  someone  comes along and starts
        saying that a computer will take over in 1997 and start world war
        III  and  this prediction is based on the book of  revelations  I
        have to put this person and their book in the same classification
        as  the  book "88 Reason wy the Rapture will Happen in 1988"  and
        it's  follow  up book (I forget the title) by the same author who
        said that his  calculations  were  in  error and that the rapture
        would happen in 1989.    No  doubt you were one of the fools that
        bought into this and was  raptured  out while I having my head in
        the  sand  was left behind during  the  rapture.    I  personally
        believe (this belief is based on observation)  that  most  of the
        people that buy into this type of clap  trap  are people that are
        weak  willed  and  weak  minded people who need to  be  on  drugs
        because they can't handle reality.  Are you being lead  around by
        the nose by every book that professes to be enligtened or are you
        the  type that reads with a skeptic eye and then researchs things
        before acceptance.   My  guess  is you buy into everything bassed
        upon your previous entries into this file.

        Yes I do believe  in  UFO's  because  I  have  seen  one  and was
        involved with a report of  another  while on a security detail in
        the Navy.  I also have  a  very  strong background in Metaphysics
        and a very deep belief in God but I do not believe every piece of
        shit that comes my way simply because some  con  man is trying to
        make  a  buck off those who are willing to  believe  whatever  is
        printed.  Get a life sport.  My head may be in the sand but yours
        is experiencing a sever case of crainial rectumites.

        Steve
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!netnews.srv.cs.cmu.edu!gerry
From: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Sep 91 17:06:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
Lines: 50
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15343 alt.alien.visitors:2119
Nntp-Posting-Host: onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: joe@teton's message of 20 Sep 91 23:18:15 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:

   Unfortunately I think humans need a large amount of time to incorprate new
   technologies,  culture, and philosphy into their culture.  Think of the
   technology shock we would experience with alien technologies, surely they
   wouldn't be used for only good purposes.

Yea, look how long it has taken us to incorporate computers into out
day-to-day lives.  All of 10 years, maybe?   Your point is entirely
wrong.  We incorporate technology at such a high rate that within mere
yeras prroducts go from research ideas to home appliances.

   I think a good example of this kind of shock is the American Indians.  Before
   we encountered the different tribes of indians most had advanced cultures,
   but were technological infants.  Then we introduced guns, horses,
   metal tools, etc.  Their culture was almost destroyed, and they are still
   recovering.  Not to say that this is the source of all of their problems,
   but it must have contributed greatly to them.

The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the
European culture.  They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age,
farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had
eveolved, etc.

   Then there are the Nukes, we dropped them on Japan without knowing for sure
   what would happen during the explosion, much less after the explosion.
   However this didn't stop us from doing it.

We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we
had previously dropped on at Los Alamos.

   Unfortunately technology is a double sided sword, and it appears humans are
   not capable of dealing with both edges.

This is the only statement you have made which has a germ of truth to
it.  Yes, technology can be used or abused, but the tendancy now seems
to use it.  Furthermore, one can even make the case that technology
which has been previously abused is now being used beneficially.  For
instance, one could claim that research into germ warfare can be used
for learning about immunology, etc.


--
Gerry Roston ([e-mail]) | A man's ethical behavior should be based
Field Robotics Center,          | effectually on sympathy, education, and
Carnegie Mellon University      | social ties; no religious basis is
Pittsburgh, PA, 15213           | necessary.  Man would indeed be in a poor
[phone]                  | way if he had to be restrained by fear and
                                | punshiment and hope of reward after death.
                                | Albert Einstein
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!ukma!ra!cee1
From: [e-mail] (The Chuckmeister)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Sep 91 18:38:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 37

[e-mail] (Paul L. White) writes:

>Watched Unsolved Mysteries last night (18 Sept) about the Air Force
>encounter with alleged UFO's. I was interested how the program would
>compare with the literature on the 1980 incident.

>One glaring departure in the tv program from the literature was the
>fact that several witnesses (the three airmen) reported that the
>UFO that landed, leaving the three 1.5"deep by 7" diameter circular
>depressions, was triangular in shape. The UFO shown on the program was
>circular. . .artistic license?

>There were other discrepancies that would either indicate poor research
>or a change in story after 11 years.

     Ever heard of a tripod???

Chucke
[e-mail]

>=======================================================================
>Paul
>plw@rayssdb               My employer and I rarely
>                                share opinions
>=======================================================================
--

 +------------------------------------------\\         -------------
 |  Internet:      [e-mail]        \\    --------------------
 |  Bitnet:        [e-mail]         >>   Jesus Christ is Lord
 |  Real Identity: Charles Edward Evans       //    --------------------
 +------------------------------------------//         --------------

  "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call HERESY,
   so worship I the God of my fathers, BELIEVING ALL THINGS which are
   WRITTEN in the law and in the prophets."
                                               -- Acts 24:14
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!io10781
From: [e-mail] (Nobody knows ...)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Glaucoma or close encounters?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Sep 91 19:58:31 GMT
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 24


  Did anyone else see this?

  About a year ago (I could go look up the date, but I'd have to locate my
journal first) in or around October (?), a friend and I were walking around
outside my house when we saw a large greenish blue star in the sky. Having
thought it was rather strange (never seen that one before *shrug*), we watched
it for some time. As we watched, it grew in size to that of a dime held at an
arm's length. The thing did grow larger to a small extent, but it became hard
to see. It was like a group of stars that you can see better when you don't
stare directly at them. I believe this was in the Southern sky relative to my
house which is close to Augusta, Maine. After watching for quite a while, we
decided to go in and warm up. It gets cold in Maine at midnight, especially
around October.
  About an hour later, when we looked, it had dissipated completely and couln't
be found. The entire episode taking nearly two hours.
  We thought it might have been a satelite releasing chemicals or something of
that nature but we're really not sure. Nobody we spoke with about the incident
had any better ideas either. Do you?
  I'd appreciate any responses I can get. Thanks
  You can E-mail me at [e-mail] or just re-post or followup.


Captain Ugh
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!csn!cherokee!teton!joe
From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 )
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Sep 91 20:37:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Telegraph Row)
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
Lines: 41
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15360 alt.alien.visitors:2122
Nntp-Posting-Host: teton.uswest.com

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
>
>Yea, look how long it has taken us to incorporate computers into out
>day-to-day lives.  All of 10 years, maybe?   Your point is entirely
>wrong.  We incorporate technology at such a high rate that within mere
>yeras prroducts go from research ideas to home appliances.

  But yet we are still trying to define new laws to incorporate computer
  crimes into the exisiting legal stucture.  Does your Grandmother/father
  or mother/father use a computer every day?  The first computer was
  developed in the 1950's (at least 30 years ago), and yet today only 10-30%
  of households have a personal computer.  It doesn't appear that the
  public has embraced computers to the extent that you have.

>
>The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the
>European culture.  They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age,
>farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had
>eveolved, etc.
>
The Indians had a different way of life.  They had different values.
Just because they weren't technlogically advanced doesn't mean their
culture and traditions weren't.  They had art, religon,family units, housing,
leadership heirarchy in the tribe.  Their view of the world was quite
different than that of the Europeans, but this doesn't make their
culture retarded.


>
>We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we
>had previously dropped on at Los Alamos.

So you are saying the U.S. had full knowledge of the long term effects
of radiation.  That they also had knowledge that 1000's of people would
die, not from the initial blast, but from radiation?   Japan is still
counting the number of official victims of the blasts to this day.  The
only thing the US new about (cared about) the bomb at that time was that
it was able to cause mass destruction quickly.


Joe
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!mucs!mccuts!zzassgl
From: [e-mail] (Geoff Lane)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Who's seen a 'Grey' ?
Keywords: Who's seen a 'Grey' ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Sep 91 10:24:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, England, M13 9PL
Lines: 7


Are these Grey men in any way related to the "Men in Black" that used
to be reported as following up peoples UFO reports and warning the
orginators of the reports not to talk with the media?
--
Geoff. Lane.                                  Janet: [e-mail]
UTS Sys Admin, Manchester Computing Centre, Oxford Rd, Manchester, M13 9PL
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ysub!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 02:50:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 41
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15374 alt.alien.visitors:2124

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Keith Rowell)
says:
>
>I wonder if you could do ufology a small service? Would you care
>to send a good, clean copy of your best film faking UFOs to the
>Mutual UFO Network? We would love to have a certified hoax UFO film
>to study. Please certify it this way: (1) Typewrite a one or two page
>description of your intent in making the hoax and all the technical
>details you can remember of how you made the film. (2) Take this down
>to a notary public and have it notarized. (3) Send the entire package to
>this address: Walt Andrus, Mutual UFO Network, 103 Oldtowne Road,
>Seguin, TX  78155-4099. If you decide to do this for ufology, be
>sure to email me so I can give Walt a call and alert him that he will
>be receiving this package. It is of course very important to us
>MUFON investigators that we know the origin of potential UFO material.
>
>What do you think, Scott?
>

My footage was not made in any way as a hoax UFO film.  It was simply
the special effects to a comedy sketch I did on our High School TV
channel.  While I was making it, NBC aired a special which included
some of Billy Meier's footage.  A friend commented to me that my F/X
looked a lot better than his, period.  I have not made such footage since
and I have never set out to make a hoax UFO film (Although I have thought
about doing one along the lines of Project Alpha, but I just don't have
the time for it anymore).  MUFON has access to the Gulf Breeze videotapes,
doesn't it?  Given that a model which matched the guy's UFO was found in
his attic, wouldn't one be justified to assume the footage is fake?

I suggest a more useful examination of your ability to rate photographs.
Get some graphics experts to generate 10 or so pictures of _real_ aircraft.
Some proportion of these 10 will be fake, made using computer graphics or
any other useful technique.  Now your job is to determine how many and which
of the 10 are the fakes and the real Mc Coys.

I am completely willing to describe how I did my footage, but the tape was
destroyed long ago by some of the less evolved examples of humanity.  I
still have some of the computer programs I used though...

Scott
Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Sep 91 22:40:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]>, Scott the Great <[e-mail]> writes:

[stuff deleted]
|> However, Unsolved Mysteries is not exactly an unbiased show.  Just look
|> at their treatment of the Gulf Breeze incident.  Have they ever updated
|> it and broadcast that models of UFOs just like the ones in the videotapes
|> were found in the guy who filmed them's attic?  Nah....
[stuff deleted]




I really would appreciate some help here.

I have heard that Ed Walters has been exposed because someone found
UFO models in his attic. I have also heard that it was the fellow in Europe
(Billy Mier(sp?)) who talks to Pliedians who was exposed because someone
found models in *his* attic.


Someone please help.

Who was exposed?

Did they both have UFO models in their respective attics? :-)


Sorry to pounce but this has been driving me crazy for weeks.

--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail] |       \\?!//         | t                    |
***********************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!zeus.ieee.org!dorm.rutgers.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Prophesy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Sep 91 17:57:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>Can you tell me more about this one in 1992?  Is that the same one that had a
>near-miss with us last year?

I don't think so.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!zeus.ieee.org!dorm.rutgers.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Dave and Doug's crop circle hoax
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Sep 91 17:59:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm) writes:
>
>They are claiming the 30,000 pound reward for showing how the crop
>circles are made.

Who offered this?  I can't remember hearing anything about it.  Besides, if
it's true, it wasn't mentioned in any of the media over here!

--
  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!zeus.ieee.org!dorm.rutgers.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Sep 91 18:12:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>will see from the transcript we are not evolved, we as humans were created
>fully evolved and some entities(gods) scrambled our DNA so we are actually
>using only 1/6 of our DNA the other 5/6 is idle. Hence the observation that we
>only use 1/10 of our brain. I feel that the exciting thing about the Pleiadian
>teachings is that we can fully activate our brain (DNA) and that we can do it
>in this lifetime.  I think that the reason that our brain is 90% water is that

Except for the part about entities tampering with us, this sounds a little
like the eight-circuit model invented by Timothy Leary.  He claims that
there are eight major regions or modes of brain activity and at this stage
in our evolution most of us are only using four of them by default.  We're
evolving as a species toward using more of them, and until then individuals
can activate the higher four through various methods.  The particularly
interesting part is that the lower four circuits are all we need to lead a
terrestrial, material life and the higher four are more suited to an
extraterrestrial, spiritual life (and even transcendance of time and
space.)

--
  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 06:08:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:
>  But yet we are still trying to define new laws to incorporate computer
>  crimes into the exisiting legal stucture.  Does your Grandmother/father
>  or mother/father use a computer every day?  The first computer was
>  developed in the 1950's (at least 30 years ago), and yet today only 10-30%
>  of households have a personal computer.  It doesn't appear that the
>  public has embraced computers to the extent that you have.

Are you perhaps forgetting to include the personal computers sitting somewhere
in their cars?  In their microwave ovens?  In their VCRs?  In the gadgets that
make VCRs easier to program?  They are not only using computers, they are doing
so without even thinking about the fact that they're using them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!ipso!runxtsa!jason
From: [e-mail] (Jason Haines)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Sep 91 11:52:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>Aliens would probably find us however quite boring. The dominant activity of
>the human race is tribal warfare and we are still plagued with such
>ignorance pestilences as religious faith and nationalism. When there is no
>more dogma faith or bizarre feelings of belongings to arbitrary subgroups of
>humanity and we have a culturally mixed  skeptical society with a moral fabric
>based on reason and compassion alone and the dominant activities of the
>human race are scientific searching and artistic creativity THEN the aliens
>will have something to talk to us about. unfortunately sci.skeptic and
>alt.atheism types are still outnumbered by silly UFO and PSI fairytalers
>mentally confined faith adherers and pathetic flag waving tribalistic
>patriots.
>
>ALEX BUNKER

* tribal warfare is likely a problem elsewhere. It is natural for peoples
to conflict, and war is one avenue employed to address differences. While
I do not condone war, even the most advanced cultures sometimes resort to
physical assertion to the extreme.

* dogma is a necessity when there are limited resources to deal with all
those enquiring minds. Sometimes it is necessary to say "that's just the
way it is, son"

* The opiate of the masses... Marx really screwed plenty of minds up.. Some
people need to have faith in God, to make their everyday drudgery bearable.
You have a faith in science being the panacea of all mankind...

* I agree that Nationalism has it's distinct disadvantages, Yugoslavia is a case
in point... However, Nationalism can help preserve certain unique aspects of
a culture that your new world of homogeneous society would destroy.

* We are all here to live our lives, try to avoid making others' lives
difficult, and to make love...


--
Jason Haines, aka Baron
INTERNET:[e-mail]  UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!jason
ACSNet:  [e-mail]
_______________________________________________________________________
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!ipso!runxtsa!jason
From: [e-mail] (Jason Haines)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Implants, end of world, etc.
Keywords: naive, gullible.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Sep 91 11:57:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: RUNX Un*x Timeshare.  Sydney, Australia.
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Iain Jameson) writes:
>Has anyone else noticed that the themes that
>continue to pop up on this group are also
>plots for a number of sci-fi/fantasy novels
>that came out about 10 years ago?

There was Greg Bear's Forge of God, Michael Creighton's Sphere...

If the world comes to an end...... so be it...

HOWEVER, a lot of the Illuminati, Knights of ...., etc. turkeys like
playing the people like a violin over this end of the world mania that comes
every so often...

--
Jason Haines, aka Baron
INTERNET:[e-mail]  UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!jason
ACSNet:  [e-mail]
_______________________________________________________________________
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!cam-eng!pjh
From: [e-mail] (P.J. Hogben)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 10:21:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David O Hunt) writes:
>>>I would say, and believe most would agree with me, that alien contact would be
>>>a marvelous thing.  Imagine the counterpoints, the opinions, the culture, and
>>>the philosophy to be gained, not to mention additional technology.  Why WOULD
>>>there be an interest in hiding these things?????

>Aliens would probably find us however quite boring. The dominant activity of
>the human race is tribal warfare and we are still plagued with such
>ignorance pestilences as religious faith and nationalism.


Why assume that any alien race either won't have "suffered" from any
of these or will have managed to eliminate them from their lifestyle
long enough ago to be bored by them?


> When there is no
>more dogma faith or bizarre feelings of belongings to arbitrary subgroups of
>humanity and we have a culturally mixed  skeptical society with a moral fabric
>based on reason and compassion alone and the dominant activities of the
>human race are scientific searching and artistic creativity THEN the aliens
>will have something to talk to us about.

>ALEX BUNKER

>sorry just something that has been bothering me and I had to get it off my
>chest.


Also, if religion and patriotism _IS_ totally "alien" to any aliens we
might meet, won't they find them facsinating? I would think it would
be more boring to find that an alien race is like one's own race in
every resoect.

Philippa Hogben
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!cf-cm!paul
From: [e-mail] (Paul Alun Roach)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 14:24:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: University of Wales College at Cardiff
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:
>
>   I think a good example of this kind of shock is the American Indians.  Before
>   we encountered the different tribes of indians most had advanced cultures,
>   but were technological infants.  Then we introduced guns, horses,
>   metal tools, etc.  Their culture was almost destroyed, and they are still
>   recovering.  Not to say that this is the source of all of their problems,
>   but it must have contributed greatly to them.
>
>The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the
>European culture.  They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age,
>farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had
>eveolved, etc.
>
>

I know this is getting away from the issue here, but I must point
out a big mistake in the above. You have confused 'culture' with
'technology'. It does not make sense to refer to a coherent and
structured culture as retarded. Please be clearer about exactly what
YOU mean by culture here.

As for the original posting, I think the Aztecs would have made a better
example, as their structure of civilisation and highly developed, well
defined systems of law and religion may be compared more easily with the
European equivalents at the time of the Conquistadors' arrival (the
first 'meeting' of the respective cultures), and the inevitable consequences
of the disparity of technologies.

>--
>Gerry Roston ([e-mail]) | A man's ethical behavior should be based
>Field Robotics Center,          | effectually on sympathy, education, and
>Carnegie Mellon University      | social ties; no religious basis is
>Pittsburgh, PA, 15213           | necessary.  Man would indeed be in a poor
>[phone]                  | way if he had to be restrained by fear and
>                                | punshiment and hope of reward after death.
>                                | Albert Einstein

Paul Roach
Department of Computing Mathematics
University of Wales, College of Cardiff
WALES
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!uofs!vulture.cs.uofs.edu!bill
From: [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 14:11:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Department of Computing Sciences
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Nntp-Posting-Host: vulture.cs.uofs.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
|>
|> I would agree.  I would be curious about what other things you found out of
|> line?
|>

One other trivial point (but any inconsistency casts a shadow over the whole
thing) was the comment made by one of the Security Police that they left their
weapons behind as they were leaving the jurisdiction of the Air Base.  I spent
a number of years with the Army in Germany.  There was no concept of juris-
diction.  Many is the time I walked the streets of Frankfurt with a loaded pistol
in my holster.  When your job involves bearing arms, you never leave them behind.

bill
--

     Bill Gunshannon          |        If this statement wasn't here,
     [e-mail]   |  This space would be left intentionally blank
     [e-mail]    |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!ils.nwu.edu!shafto
From: [e-mail] (Eric Shafto)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 14:23:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
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[e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:

>    I think a good example of this kind of shock is the American Indians.  Before
>    we encountered the different tribes of indians most had advanced cultures,
>    but were technological infants.  Then we introduced guns, horses,
>    metal tools, etc.  Their culture was almost destroyed, and they are still
>    recovering.  Not to say that this is the source of all of their problems,
>    but it must have contributed greatly to them.

> The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the
> European culture.  They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age,
> farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had
> eveolved, etc.

I think you are both nuts.  Natives in New Jersey were smelting
iron, and corn cannot be raised without cultivation.  Furthermore,
they did quite well with guns and horses.  What destroyed so many
cultures was the fact that we were shooting at them all the time.
Not to mention little things like deliberately infecting them with
diseases, cutting them off from water, destroying their sources
of food, and so on.

While it was technology that allowed us to do that to them, you
can hardly argue that it was the technology itself that destroyed
their cultures.  It's not like they saw steel and horses and fell
apart.

>    Then there are the Nukes, we dropped them on Japan without knowing for sure
>    what would happen during the explosion, much less after the explosion.
>    However this didn't stop us from doing it.
>
> We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we
> had previously dropped on at Los Alamos.

Joe's point remains, though.  We weren't positive about what would
happen when it was dropped at Los Alamos, and we dropped it anyway.
On the other hand, we WERE pretty sure about what would happen.

--
*Eric Shafto             * How many loved your moments of glad grace,     *
*Institute for the       * And loved your beauty with love false or true, *
*    Learning Sciences   * But one man loved the pilgrim soul in you,     *
*Northwestern University * And loved the sorrows of your changing face;   *
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera
From: [e-mail] (Eric Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Request for info
Keywords: Periodicals, conferences
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 15:05:20 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
Lines: 11
Originator: eherrera@zinfandel

Would someone please be so kind as to post the names, addresses and
telephone numbers of some reputable magazines which deal with the UFO
phenomenon?  Also, I've seen posters refer to UFO conferences which
they have attended.  Where are these conferences advertised?  I'm
interested in attending one.  Thank you very much in advance!

Also, a word for the hard core doubters.  Pick up a book called "Above
Top Secret" by Timothy Good.  I think its very illuminating on the
subject of how the world's governments have been observing one thing
but telling the public another.  It includes copies of documents
obtained via the Freedom of Information Act.  Very convincing.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe
From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 )
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 15:04:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Are you perhaps forgetting to include the personal computers sitting somewhere
>in their cars?  In their microwave ovens?  In their VCRs?  In the gadgets that
>make VCRs easier to program?  They are not only using computers, they are doing
>so without even thinking about the fact that they're using them.

I think it is quite a stretch to consider a dedicated processor with less
computational power than the original IBM PC, a personal computer.  Especially
when one compounds the fact that they don't have a storage medium capability
(i.e. tape, disk drive, etc) and when the power goes off, everthing is lost
except for instructions etched in silicon.  And then there is the monitor,
LCD or LED display, that's a stretch too, but I digress.

Think about it, why would someone need to make a VCR easier to program?
Could it be that the public doesn't understand the programming technology?

A little piece of trivia:
A town in Idaho has just replaced (within the last year) their handcranked
telephone system, with a new system.  I bet you could sell a lot of
VCR programming gadgets to them !

Another piece of trivia:
One of the earliest forms of storage medium for computers were card
readers/writers.  Yet today, many universities and corporations are finally
retiring them (within the last 1-5 years).  Why did it take so long with all
the relatively advanced storage mediums and computers of today?

Joe
Joe
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!sgi!shinobu!odin!valhalla.esd.sgi.com!bjorn
From: [e-mail] (Bjorn Kristian Lindstrom)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Who's seen a 'Grey' ?
Keywords: Who's seen a 'Grey' ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 16:33:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Geoff Lane) writes:
|>
|> Are these Grey men in any way related to the "Men in Black" that used
|> to be reported as following up peoples UFO reports and warning the
|> orginators of the reports not to talk with the media?
|> --
|> Geoff. Lane.                                  Janet: [e-mail]
|> UTS Sys Admin, Manchester Computing Centre, Oxford Rd, Manchester, M13 9PL

Perhaps I can shed some light on this... I believe you are referring to the
"Man in black", more widely known as Johnny Cash.  He is related to the
Grey's, but he is only a second cousin, so he doesn't get as much press in
this newsgroup as the Grey's do, who are a much more charismatic and popular
bunch!  Being an insanely jealous individual, he HATES it when they get more
press than he does, which is quite often, so he spends quite a bit of time
trying to downplay their success by trying to convince people that they
aren't as great as they make themselves out to be.

 (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8=

Sometimes I just can't help myself... (8=

Bjorn
"If you can't laugh, you might as well curl up and die... cause life is
not worth living without a smile..."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe
From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 )
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 15:51:19 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Paul Alun Roach) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:
>>
>>   I think a good example of this kind of shock is the American Indians.  Before
>>   we encountered the different tribes of indians most had advanced cultures,
>>   but were technological infants.  Then we introduced guns, horses,
>>   metal tools, etc.  Their culture was almost destroyed, and they are still
>>   recovering.  Not to say that this is the source of all of their problems,
>>   but it must have contributed greatly to them.
>>
>>The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the
>>European culture.  They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age,
>>farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had
>>eveolved, etc.
>>
>>
>
>I know this is getting away from the issue here, but I must point
>out a big mistake in the above. You have confused 'culture' with
>'technology'. It does not make sense to refer to a coherent and
>structured culture as retarded. Please be clearer about exactly what
>YOU mean by culture here.
>
>As for the original posting, I think the Aztecs would have made a better
>example, as their structure of civilisation and highly developed, well
>defined systems of law and religion may be compared more easily with the
>European equivalents at the time of the Conquistadors' arrival (the
>first 'meeting' of the respective cultures), and the inevitable consequences
>of the disparity of technologies.
>

Excellent point (Aztec culture would be a better example than American
Indian culture), I will remember it in future discussions of the subject.

Joe
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 17:48:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>Are you perhaps forgetting to include the personal computers sitting somewhere
>>in their cars?  In their microwave ovens?  In their VCRs?  In the gadgets that
>>make VCRs easier to program?  They are not only using computers, they are doing
>>so without even thinking about the fact that they're using them.
>
>I think it is quite a stretch to consider a dedicated processor with less
>computational power than the original IBM PC, a personal computer.  Especially
>when one compounds the fact that they don't have a storage medium capability
>(i.e. tape, disk drive, etc) and when the power goes off, everthing is lost
>except for instructions etched in silicon.  And then there is the monitor,
>LCD or LED display, that's a stretch too, but I digress.

I've used personal computers with a Z80 as a cpu.  This certainly has less
computational power than the original IBM PC.  The fact that you're unwilling
to consider these dedicated processors to be personal computers just shows how
widespread the acceptance of computers IS.

>Think about it, why would someone need to make a VCR easier to program?
>Could it be that the public doesn't understand the programming technology?

Because:
    1)  The interface sucks;
    2)  The documentation sucks.
For example, there are lots of VCRs out there that are blinking 12:00 all day
long.  Why?  Because the @@#@#$%^& instruction manual doesn't make it clear
that if you push ANY button between the time you turn the VCR on and when you
try to set the time, you can't set the time.  Writing good documentation takes
at least two people:
    1)  A person who fully understands what's being documented; and
    2)  A person who has absolutely no knowledge of what's being
        documented.
The former provides the information about the system, the latter finds the weak
points in the documentation.  If you have more than a couple of iterations in
the development of the documentation, then you need more people in category 2,
as the first one will quickly learn enough about the system that he's no longer
relying solely on the current version of the documentation and has effectively
migrated into category 1.  Far too few companies realize this, and instead
leave documentation entirely to people in category 1.  This phenomenon is not
limited to computers.  Toy manufactures fond of the phrase "some assembly
required" are also notorious for this.

>A little piece of trivia:
>A town in Idaho has just replaced (within the last year) their handcranked
>telephone system, with a new system.  I bet you could sell a lot of
>VCR programming gadgets to them !

Not necessarily.  If the town is small enough that they don't have to hire
extra operators to operate the board (i.e., their information operator[s] can
also operate the board), then there's no great need to move to more modern
technology.  This doesn't necessarily indicate a lack of technological
sophistication, just economics.

>Another piece of trivia:
>One of the earliest forms of storage medium for computers were card
>readers/writers.  Yet today, many universities and corporations are finally
>retiring them (within the last 1-5 years).  Why did it take so long with all
>the relatively advanced storage mediums and computers of today?

Again, in part for economic reasons.  There were (and probably still are) a lot
of seldom-used programs and data sets residing on punch-cards.  As long as
there's a card reader available, it's not worth the time of the owner of the
cards nor the cost of media to move all this stuff to tape or other removable
magnetic media.  And while there's a substantial amount of stuff stored on
cards, it's politically impossible for a computing center to retire the card
reader.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!ampex!russest
From: [e-mail] (Steve Russell)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 17:31:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: steve russell, [e-mail]
Organization: Ampex Corporation, Redwood City CA
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In article <[e-mail]> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
>>
>>Yea, look how long it has taken us to incorporate computers into out
>>day-to-day lives.  All of 10 years, maybe?   Your point is entirely
>>wrong.  We incorporate technology at such a high rate that within mere
>>yeras prroducts go from research ideas to home appliances.
>
>  But yet we are still trying to define new laws to incorporate computer
>  crimes into the exisiting legal stucture.  Does your Grandmother/father

What does law and computer crime have to do with the above statement?

>  or mother/father use a computer every day?  The first computer was
>  developed in the 1950's (at least 30 years ago), and yet today only 10-30%
>  of households have a personal computer.  It doesn't appear that the
>  public has embraced computers to the extent that you have.

The first computer was not exactly consider a "personal computer" and
there wasn't enough money in the world for the average user to buy one.
Besides, it didn't play games.

>
>
>>
>>We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we
>>had previously dropped on at Los Alamos.
>
>So you are saying the U.S. had full knowledge of the long term effects
>of radiation.  That they also had knowledge that 1000's of people would
>die, not from the initial blast, but from radiation?   Japan is still
>counting the number of official victims of the blasts to this day.  The
>only thing the US new about (cared about) the bomb at that time was that
>it was able to cause mass destruction quickly.
>
>Joe

Yes Joe, the U.S. did know of the effects of radiation exposure, re. Madam
Curie, et al. We just didn't give a shit as long as it forced Japan to
capitulate.

The long term STUDY of the effects required an actual blast
which Japan provided an excellent case study of. However this apparently
wasn't enough for our government 'cause they spent a lot of time, money, and
lives experimenting on our own citizens during the atom bomb tests after
the war.

-steve
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe
From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 )
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 17:13:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Telegraph Row)
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Shafto) writes:
>[e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
>> In article <[e-mail]> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:
>
>>    I think a good example of this kind of shock is the American Indians.  Before
>>    we encountered the different tribes of indians most had advanced cultures,
>>    but were technological infants.  Then we introduced guns, horses,
>>    metal tools, etc.  Their culture was almost destroyed, and they are still
>>    recovering.  Not to say that this is the source of all of their problems,
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>    but it must have contributed greatly to them.
>
>> The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the
>> European culture.  They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age,
>> farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had
>> eveolved, etc.
>
>I think you are both nuts.  Natives in New Jersey were smelting
>iron, and corn cannot be raised without cultivation.  Furthermore,
>they did quite well with guns and horses.  What destroyed so many
>cultures was the fact that we were shooting at them all the time.
>Not to mention little things like deliberately infecting them with
>diseases, cutting them off from water, destroying their sources
>of food, and so on.
>
>While it was technology that allowed us to do that to them, you
>can hardly argue that it was the technology itself that destroyed
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>their cultures.  It's not like they saw steel and horses and fell
>apart.
>

I didn't write that, what I wrote was that technology contributed
greatly to their problems.  If the Europeans hadn't developed the
technology to sail the ocean and arrive in America, I think the
American Indians would be doing pretty well right now.  Not only
because they wouldn't have contact with us, but also they would have
developed technology (if any at all) at a much slower pace. This would
have allow their culture to absorb it, with out alot of destruction.

Joe
Path: ns-mx!uunet!olivea!oliveb!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30
From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 17:39:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 28
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason Haines) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>>Aliens would probably find us however quite boring. The dominant activity of
>>the human race is tribal warfare ..............................


Heres a thought. Maybe to an alien species we are simply to wild.
If we were to go out into the wild and say, tag an animal we would be
cautious because of it's ability to do us harm. We would understand
it's fear but not know how to set it's mind at ease.

Could it be that the alien being encountering us feel the same way?
We have tamed oueselves enough to get alond fairly well most of the time
but this is true of most animals. Many species live in families ....
...ie wolves, lions...ect.. They are tame to themselves but not to us.

Many people claiming they were abducted say this is an ongoing thing
usually starting in childhood.

Maybe the strange methods of the abductors is to tame us.

just a thought.

--
=========================================================================
  All poetry posted is Copyright protected, anything else is just talk.
Denise Solis - Amdahl Corp.                     [e-mail]
=========================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!sarah!cs.albany.edu!psinntp!uupsi!bony1!billg
From: [e-mail] (Bill Gripp)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Mt. Shasta Pt.1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Sep 91 19:22:01 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David O Hunt) writes:
>One wonders how much they get in fees/royalties for saying this...if they get
>ANYTHING then their credibility is shot.
>
>If there really is a civilization under Mt. Shasta, they must not be very good
>geologists...that whole area is active (geologically speaking) as Mt.
>St. Helens
>showed.  Crater Lake is showing some signs of thermal venting (see this month's
>Discover), and Mt. Hood has had micro-tremors for a while (according to my
>not-infallible memory).
>
>Trust a truly "advanced" civilization to build itself underneath a potentially
>active volcano!

Ah, but it's not active.  These signs are all artificial, created by the
sub-Shataites to keep nosey, busibuddies away!  =8^).
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watdragon!watyew!jdnicoll
From: [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: America with No European Contact (was Re: UFOs and Abductees)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 21:41:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:
>
>I didn't write that, what I wrote was that technology contributed
>greatly to their problems.  If the Europeans hadn't developed the
>technology to sail the ocean and arrive in America, I think the
>American Indians would be doing pretty well right now.  Not only
>because they wouldn't have contact with us, but also they would have
>developed technology (if any at all) at a much slower pace. This would
>have allow their culture to absorb it, with out alot of destruction.
>
>Joe

    That might have just changed who got to punt on the nomadic cultures.
The South and Central American cultures (Mayans, Inca, and Aztecs) might have
decided to expand northward, and they do appear to have had a technological
and sociological edge on many North American cultures. Granted, I really don't
think the Incas and Mayans could have gotten around the rather large roadblock
north of them, but didn't the Aztecs trade and war with cultures north of
them?

    I've always thought the Mississippi was extraordinarily well-suited
to provide a 'road' through-out the interior of North America. If we had never
exploited it thus, *someone* eventually would have set up a culture which
*did* (And probably did. How far south did the Mandans trade? Did they get
as far south as the northern Mississippi?). A very well-designed river
system, indeed :)

                                James Nicoll
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe
From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 )
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 22:30:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Telegraph Row)
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Russell) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we
>>>had previously dropped on at Los Alamos.
>>
>>So you are saying the U.S. had full knowledge of the long term effects
>>of radiation.  That they also had knowledge that 1000's of people would
>>die, not from the initial blast, but from radiation?   Japan is still
>>counting the number of official victims of the blasts to this day.  The
>>only thing the US new about (cared about) the bomb at that time was that
>>it was able to cause mass destruction quickly.
>>
>>Joe
>
>Yes Joe, the U.S. did know of the effects of radiation exposure, re. Madam
>Curie, et al. We just didn't give a shit as long as it forced Japan to
>capitulate.
>
>The long term STUDY of the effects required an actual blast
>which Japan provided an excellent case study of. However this apparently
>wasn't enough for our government 'cause they spent a lot of time, money, and
>lives experimenting on our own citizens during the atom bomb tests after
>the war.
>
>-steve

Have you viewed the film clips of the "Desenitizing troops to Nuclear
warfare"?  They are really scary.  In one you see a bomb go off in the
distance, troops a hiding in trenches, you see a rush of air, dust etc.
Then the troops get out of their trenches and begin moving toward the
blast.  Very scary.

Or the one where a mission to fly through a Nuclear blast cloud?  I do
think that some people in the US new there would be adverse affects
associated with radiation, however the people who ordered the blasts
didn't or just didn't care.  In other words I agree with you steve.

Joe
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe
From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 )
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 22:51:24 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>>Are you perhaps forgetting to include the personal computers sitting somewhere
>>>in their cars?  In their microwave ovens?  In their VCRs?  In the gadgets that
>>>make VCRs easier to program?  They are not only using computers, they are doing
>>>so without even thinking about the fact that they're using them.
>>
>>I think it is quite a stretch to consider a dedicated processor with less
>>computational power than the original IBM PC, a personal computer.  Especially
>>when one compounds the fact that they don't have a storage medium capability
>>(i.e. tape, disk drive, etc) and when the power goes off, everthing is lost
>>except for instructions etched in silicon.  And then there is the monitor,
>>LCD or LED display, that's a stretch too, but I digress.
>
>I've used personal computers with a Z80 as a cpu.  This certainly has less
>computational power than the original IBM PC.  The fact that you're unwilling
>to consider these dedicated processors to be personal computers just shows how
>widespread the acceptance of computers IS.
>
>>Think about it, why would someone need to make a VCR easier to program?
>>Could it be that the public doesn't understand the programming technology?
>
>Because:
>    1)  The interface sucks;
>    2)  The documentation sucks.
>For example, there are lots of VCRs out there that are blinking 12:00 all day
>long.  Why?  Because the @@#@#$%^& instruction manual doesn't make it clear
>that if you push ANY button between the time you turn the VCR on and when you
>try to set the time, you can't set the time.  Writing good documentation takes
>at least two people:
>    1)  A person who fully understands what's being documented; and
>    2)  A person who has absolutely no knowledge of what's being
>        documented.
>The former provides the information about the system, the latter finds the weak
>points in the documentation.  If you have more than a couple of iterations in
>the development of the documentation, then you need more people in category 2,
>as the first one will quickly learn enough about the system that he's no longer
>relying solely on the current version of the documentation and has effectively
>migrated into category 1.  Far too few companies realize this, and instead
>leave documentation entirely to people in category 1.  This phenomenon is not
>limited to computers.  Toy manufactures fond of the phrase "some assembly
>required" are also notorious for this.
>
>>A little piece of trivia:
>>A town in Idaho has just replaced (within the last year) their handcranked
>>telephone system, with a new system.  I bet you could sell a lot of
>>VCR programming gadgets to them !
>
>Not necessarily.  If the town is small enough that they don't have to hire
>extra operators to operate the board (i.e., their information operator[s] can
>also operate the board), then there's no great need to move to more modern
>technology.  This doesn't necessarily indicate a lack of technological
>sophistication, just economics.
>
>>Another piece of trivia:
>>One of the earliest forms of storage medium for computers were card
>>readers/writers.  Yet today, many universities and corporations are finally
>>retiring them (within the last 1-5 years).  Why did it take so long with all
>>the relatively advanced storage mediums and computers of today?
>
>Again, in part for economic reasons.  There were (and probably still are) a lot
>of seldom-used programs and data sets residing on punch-cards.  As long as
>there's a card reader available, it's not worth the time of the owner of the
>cards nor the cost of media to move all this stuff to tape or other removable
>magnetic media.  And while there's a substantial amount of stuff stored on
>cards, it's politically impossible for a computing center to retire the card
>reader.


I don't know if you realize it or not, but you have just basically agreed
with my initial thought:
    Humans need a large amount of time to incorporate new technologies
    culture, and philosopy into their lives & culture.
Whether the delay is because of economics, religion, or plain stupidity
(i.e. VCR interface & manuals) from what you have just said it holds
true.

Joe

P.S.
A co-worker of mine just suggested that you should rent the movie,
the Gods Must be Crazy, I think it would explain alot of what
you don't appear to be grasping in our correspondence.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!monu0.cc.monash.edu.au!monu6!minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au!rxxgre
From: [e-mail] (Geof Rey Evans)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Sep 91 23:40:35 GMT
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[e-mail] (David O Hunt) writes:

>A large shaceship landing at Dulles Airport would do nicely.  Perhaps leaflets
>distributed on a material that we humans couldn't make as yet.  LOTS of ways
>to _unambiguously and clearly_ say "We are here."  What's with this skulking
>about?  Why NOT contact national leaders?  Why NOT make a public appearance?
>Are they afraid of us?  Surely aliens who can cross the gulf between stars have
>means of defending themselves against our weapons.  What is to be gained by
>hiding if you want to make contact?

* Why all this skulking about ? Are they afraid of us ?? Are you for
  real ??? If you relate your questions back to the *human* experience
  (to date) and then put yourself in their (alien) shoes...are you still
  at all surprised ? I suggest that at this point in time the one who
  wants to make contact is *you*.....


--
  ___________________________________________________________________
|| Geof Evans                 | DOMAIN: [e-mail]  ||
|| Melbourne,Australia 3000   | Tel: [phone]             ||
||       If they *really* wanna know...tell 'em God was drunk.       ||
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!cie.uoregon.edu!christ
From: [e-mail] (Christian G. Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Request for info
Keywords: Periodicals, conferences
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 05:42:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Campus Information Exchange, University of Oregon
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) writes:
>Would someone please be so kind as to post the names, addresses and
>telephone numbers of some reputable magazines which deal with the UFO
>phenomenon?  Also, I've seen posters refer to UFO conferences which
>they have attended.  Where are these conferences advertised?  I'm
>interested in attending one.  Thank you very much in advance!

  I can give you only one:
    UFO (published bimonthly by California UFO)
    1536 S. Robertson Blvd.
    L.A. CA 90035

  A one-year subscription is $21.  The copy I have read very objectively,
and it's definately worth sending off for an issue.

>
>Also, a word for the hard core doubters.  Pick up a book called "Above
>Top Secret" by Timothy Good.  I think its very illuminating on the
>subject of how the world's governments have been observing one thing
>but telling the public another.  It includes copies of documents
>obtained via the Freedom of Information Act.  Very convincing.

  Amen.  VERY good book.  Are there any others of it's caliber and if so, what
are they?

--
                         WAR IS PEACE
                      FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
                    IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ucselx!crash!benno
From: [e-mail] (Benno Eichmann)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 05:50:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
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Steven, Matrix II by a Valdamar Valerian was a very extensive and interesting
collection of details, and if even partly true it is a big dam buster expose!

I think Nevada Aerial Research, POB 81407, Las Vegas, NV 89180-1407 may have
details.

It was published in 1990, July.

Don Allen may know something about it in his files?

Ben

:
Path: ns-mx!uunet!rayssd!plw
From: [e-mail] (Paul L. White)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Above Top Secret
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 12:09:08 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Raytheon Company, Portsmouth RI
Lines: 25

The literary source for my comparison of the Unsolved Mysteries version
of the Bentwater incident to the UFO literature was Tim Good's Above
Top Secret. I have noted several postings with acclaim for the book's
veracity.  Perhaps I would go along with thoroughness; Good seems to
have included quite a bit of UFO lore that did not result from FOIA sources.
A casual view of the books footnotes and bibliography contain not a few
references to bastions of accurate journalism such as the National Enquirer.

While generally interesting and seemingly complete, Above Top Secret did
not impress me with the claims of Armstrong's discovery of UFOs on the moon.

The title of another book based on FOIA sources, A Clear Intent, seemed
to be less sensational and the information less slippery. In other words,
a person with interest, funding, and time could verify the book's claims.

Lately I find the more casual research I do into the subject (UFOs), the
more I find the waters completely muddied and turgid.  While it would be
tempting to blame the environment on efforts at "disinformation," or that
UFOs simply do not exist, the real situation is a challenging filtering of
signal-to-noise. And there IS a lot of noise.

==========================================================================
Paul White
plw@rayssdb              My employer and I rarely share opinions
==========================================================================
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!porthos.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Request for info
Keywords: Periodicals, conferences
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 14:04:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 45

Hi,

   Here's a couple more:

Mutual UFO Network (MUFON)
103 Oldtowne Rd.
Seguin, TX 78155

Publishes the MUFON Journal ($25/year, monthly).  Highly readable.
MUFON has a yearly UFO Symbposium (1991's was in July at Chicago),
with proceedings available.  MUFON also has a Ham-radio network (which
I haven't tuned into yet).

(J. Allen Hynek) Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS)
2457 W. Peterson Ave.
Chicago, Ill. 60658

   Publishes the "International UFO Reporter", $25/year.  In my
opinion CUFOS tends to take itself a bit too seriously.  They seem to
be extremely interested in things their own people do, and heap scorn
on what everybody else does.  On the other hand, they do seem to do
good work.  They have the NICAP archives.  (BTW, anyone know what
happened to the late, lamented APRO's material?)


FSR Publications, Ltd.
P.O. Box 162
High Wycombe
Bucks
England
HP13 5DZ

Publshes the most-respected "Flying Saucer Review" - $35/year (4
issues), plus $10 for airmail, or $9 for a single issue.

Northern UFO Network (NUFON)
37 Heathbank Road
Cheadle Heath
Stockport, Cheshire
England
SK3 OUP

  Publishes "Northern UFO News", $20/year (6 issues).

Charles
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!unixhub!slacvm!doctorj
From: [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 14:54:46 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15441 alt.alien.visitors:2153

[e-mail] (Geof Rey Evans) says:

>[e-mail] (David O Hunt) writes:

>> A large shaceship landing at Dulles Airport would do nicely.  Perhaps
>> leaflets distributed on a material that we humans couldn't make as yet.
>> LOTS of ways to _unambiguously and clearly_ say "We are here."  What's
>> with this skulking about?  Why NOT contact national leaders?  Why NOT make
>> a public appearance?  Are they afraid of us?  Surely aliens who can cross
>> the gulf between stars have means of defending themselves against our
>> weapons.  What is to be gained by hiding if you want to make contact?
>
>* Why all this skulking about ? Are they afraid of us ?? Are you for
>  real ??? If you relate your questions back to the *human* experience
>  (to date) and then put yourself in their (alien) shoes...are you still
>  at all surprised ? I suggest that at this point in time the one who
>  wants to make contact is *you*.....

You're both missing a golden opportunity for novel exo-anthropological
research.  Just think how much we can learn about the civilization, habits,
and philosophy of an alien civilization which travels vast distances just
to shove implants up some bozo's nose and ear and to flatten some poor
farmer's crops.  Myself, I think they are the galactic version of juvenile
delinquents.  Does anyone here remember a movie (starring Jerry Lewis, I
think) called "Visitor to a Small Planet?"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe
From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 )
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 15:57:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Telegraph Row)
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
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Nntp-Posting-Host: teton.uswest.com


Gerry Roston's Responses so far have been:

>Yea, look how long it has taken us to incorporate computers into out
>day-to-day lives.  All of 10 years, maybe?   Your point is entirely
>wrong.  We incorporate technology at such a high rate that within mere
>yeras prroducts go from research ideas to home appliances.

No, as we all know the first computer was produced in the 1950's,
over 30 years ago.

>The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the
>European culture.  They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age,
>farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had
>eveolved, etc.

No, as we all know you cannot consider a culture "retarded", just
because they are not technically advanced and/or have different
values/customs.

>We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we
>had previously dropped on at Los Alamos.

No, we all know that the US didn't drop a bomb at Los Alamos, it was
200 miles away from there (White Sands I believe).  Also there were
many theories of what would happen, one of which was spontaneous
combustion of the earth's atmosphere.

Now he writes:

>Joe,
>You are quite naive.  Why should the American Indian have developed
>any technology at all in a period of a few hundred years, when it took
>the rest of the civilizations thousands?  Since the Indians (I am
>talking about the Western Indians) were primarily nomadic, they would
>have NEVER developed any technology at all.

>Gerry Roston ([e-mail]) | II - A well regulated Militia, being
>Field Robotics Center,          | necessary to the security of a free State,
>Carnegie Mellon University      | the right of the people to keep and bear
>Pittsburgh, PA, 15213           | Arms, shall not be infringed.
>[phone]                  |

You are wrong again !

Here is the definition of technology for Mr. Rostons benefit.

Technology - applied science
           - a technical method of achieving a pratical purpose

As we all know the indians did have shelter (teepee), they had to
build these didn't they?

We all know they had spears/arrows, they also had to build these
didn't they.

They also had Kiva's (sp?), they had to dig to create these didn't
they (southwestern indians), and then make the roof?

And the list goes on, and on...

No Mr. Roston, I don't think that I am the one who is naive.
You really need to take some classes at CMU, my I suggest:

        1)  Native American history/culture
        2)  History of Science
        3)  Anthropolgy courses
        4)  Vocabulary

In any case, I do find your inane messages tedious and arrogant, hence
I am discontinuing contributions to this thread.  Besides this thread
is off the subject/purpose of this news group anyway.

Joe
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!apple!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera
From: [e-mail] (Eric Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Above Top Secret
Summary: The goverment IS interested
Keywords: Tabloids vs. truth, etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 19:49:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Paul L. White) writes:
>The literary source for my comparison of the Unsolved Mysteries version
>of the Bentwater incident to the UFO literature was Tim Good's Above
>Top Secret. I have noted several postings with acclaim for the book's
>veracity.  Perhaps I would go along with thoroughness; Good seems to
>have included quite a bit of UFO lore that did not result from FOIA sources.
>A casual view of the books footnotes and bibliography contain not a few
>references to bastions of accurate journalism such as the National Enquirer.
> [deletions]
>==========================================================================
>Paul White
>plw@rayssdb              My employer and I rarely share opinions
>==========================================================================

I was not vouching for the book's veracity.  I have never met Timothy Good
nor any of his sources.  I simply said that the book was convincing.  As
to the significance of Good citing the National Enquirer, I think this is
a good example of how official ridicule of the subject has relegated it to
those pages.  We all know that the Enquirer (and television shows like
Unexplained Mysteries for that matter) use sensationalism to sell their
products.  That doesn't, however,  lead us to a logical conclusion that
these stories are untrue (at least not *all* of them).

For example, we all heard about that Texan mother who tried to put a "hit"
on a neighbor whose daughter was her daughter's rival for the local
cheerleading squad.  The tabloids and infotainment "news" shows jumped all
over that story.  But is was true.

Now I don't believe that Elvis is a DEA agent (or whatever), and I don't
believe everything Timothy Good says just because it's published.  But I
do think that Good did a good job of convincing me of this:  US and other
worldwide security and defense organizations have a keen interest in the
UFO phenomenon, but don't want us to know that they do, or why.  That's
all.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!mips!pacbell.com!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 16:54:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 49
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[e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> joe@teton ( Joe
Thiel
>    I think a good example of this kind of shock is the American Indians.
Bef
>    we encountered the different tribes of indians most had advanced
cultures,
>    but were technological infants.  Then we introduced guns, horses,
>    metal tools, etc.  Their culture was almost destroyed, and they are
still
>    recovering.  Not to say that this is the source of all of their
problems,
>    but it must have contributed greatly to them.
>
> The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the
> European culture.  They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age,
> farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had
> eveolved, etc.

        Gerry, I wuish you hadn't used that somewhat loaded word 'retarded.'

        Actually, among many Native American tribes, farming was established,
although not on the scale and with the methods that man developed in Northern
Africa and Mesopotamia. And yes, they did domesticate dogs, although they
weren't adverse to using them for meat on occasion.

        In terms of politics, family and social structure, Native American
tribes were genuinely sophisticated.
>    Then there are the Nukes, we dropped them on Japan without knowing for
sur
>    what would happen during the explosion, much less after the explosion.
>    However this didn't stop us from doing it.
>
> We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we
> had previously dropped on at Los Alamos.

        Correct, though in pretty horrible ways. The firestorm bombings
devised by Curtis LeMay in WWII provided an ample picture of what would
happen to human beings, and medical surveys performed by Americans after the
bombing or Hiroshima and Nagasaki for the most part confirmed the estimates
compiled prior to the actual bombing.


""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
[e-mail]                     "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq
From: [e-mail] (Kevin D. Quitt)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 20:57:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA
Lines: 17
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In article <[e-mail]> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:
>One of the earliest forms of storage medium for computers were card
>readers/writers.  Yet today, many universities and corporations are finally
>retiring them (within the last 1-5 years).  Why did it take so long with all
>the relatively advanced storage mediums and computers of today?

    Because to eliminate technology while it still serves its initial
purpose, simply because that technology is not state-of-the-art is
stupid.

--
 _
Kevin D. Quitt              srhqla!venus!kdq     [e-mail]
3D systems, inc.            26081 Avenue Hall    Valencia, CA 91355
VOICE [phone] x430   FAX [phone]

                96.37% of all statistics are made up.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!convex.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 23:36:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
[...]
>Yea, look how long it has taken us to incorporate computers into out
>day-to-day lives.  All of 10 years, maybe?   Your point is entirely
>wrong.  We incorporate technology at such a high rate that within mere
>yeras prroducts go from research ideas to home appliances.

Most of the people I deal with (mechanical and electrical engineers)
can't cope with computers without some help in their day to day lives.
The president of the United States doesn't know how to use a computer
or to set the clock on his VCR.

>The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the
>European culture.  They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age,
>farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had
>eveolved, etc.

Farming and domestication of animals was quite common among the various
American Indian cultures.  I don't know what particular culture you are
thinking of, but most had domesticated dogs and later, horses.  Some
cultures simply didn't farm as they were nomadic herders or hunters.
The American Indian cultures covered both continents of the Americas.
Some of them built great cities (not just towns).

Some people would find your use of the word "retarded" quite offensive.
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!think.com!spdcc!dirtydog.ima.isc.com!ism.isc.com!gary
From: [e-mail] (Gary Swift)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.native
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 23:47:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Ism Usenet News)
Organization: Interactive Systems Corporation, Santa Monica, CA
Lines: 37
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In article <[e-mail]> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:
>
>Gerry Roston's Responses so far have been:
>
>>The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the
>>European culture.  They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age,
>>farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had
>>eveolved, etc.

This betrays a considerable amount of ignorance (if not racism)
with respect to the native north Americans.  The fact is that
many pre-Columbian N. American farming techniques were superior
to those of the Europeans, including the use of sophisticated
irrigation systems and fertilizer; the Anasazi had domesticated
animals; and not only did some Indian cultures build towns, they
constructed elaborate road systems between them.

>Now he writes:
>
>>Joe,
>>You are quite naive.  Why should the American Indian have developed
>>any technology at all in a period of a few hundred years, when it took

This is a quite narrow view of technology.

>>the rest of the civilizations thousands?  Since the Indians (I am
>>talking about the Western Indians) were primarily nomadic, they would
>>have NEVER developed any technology at all.

Some Indians became nomadic *after* the introduction of horses
via the invading Europeans.  Also some in the southwest adopted
nomadic lifestyles only after local resources (like wood) were
depleted and/or climate changes forced them to leave areas they
had settled and farmed.

Gary Swift, INTERACTIVE Systems Corp., Santa Monica, Ca., [phone]
internet: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!torsqnt!geac!maccs!physun!bunker
From: [e-mail] (Alex Bunker)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Sep 91 15:54:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dept. of Physics, McMaster Univ., Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA
Lines: 65
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason Haines) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>>Aliens would probably find us however quite boring. The dominant activity of
>>the human race is tribal warfare and we are still plagued with such
>>ignorance pestilences as religious faith and nationalism. When there is no
>>more dogma faith or bizarre feelings of belongings to arbitrary subgroups of
>>humanity and we have a culturally mixed  skeptical society with a moral fabric
>>based on reason and compassion alone and the dominant activities of the
>>human race are scientific searching and artistic creativity THEN the aliens
>>will have something to talk to us about. unfortunately sci.skeptic and
>>alt.atheism types are still outnumbered by silly UFO and PSI fairytalers
>>mentally confined faith adherers and pathetic flag waving tribalistic
>>patriots.
>>
>>ALEX BUNKER
>
>* tribal warfare is likely a problem elsewhere. It is natural for peoples
>to conflict, and war is one avenue employed to address differences. While
>I do not condone war, even the most advanced cultures sometimes resort to
>physical assertion to the extreme.

Here I see you can not see the forest for the trees. You seem stuck in
your own tribalistic mindset. You seem unable to imagine a society where
there is an in without an outside. Too bad.

>* dogma is a necessity when there are limited resources to deal with all
>those enquiring minds. Sometimes it is necessary to say "that's just the
>way it is, son"

NO WAY NEVER EVER will I ever accept any dogma! A government says that to
me and I immediately start civil disobedience! I did not accept it from my
parents as a child and I will not accept it from my university government
etc..

>* The opiate of the masses... Marx really screwed plenty of minds up.. Some
>people need to have faith in God, to make their everyday drudgery bearable.
>You have a faith in science being the panacea of all mankind...

NO! I KNOW that reason and compassionate ethics require no faith. faith in
god is a ball and chain around the intellect that holds societies and peoples
back form their full potential. When Marx said religeon was the opiate of the
masses he was BANG ON! he jsut however had no understanding of greed
and individualism and THAT screwed a lot of people up

>* I agree that Nationalism has it's distinct disadvantages, Yugoslavia is a case
>in point... However, Nationalism can help preserve certain unique aspects of
>a culture that your new world of homogeneous society would destroy.

no It would preserve it all un a peaceful intellectual mosaic

>* We are all here to live our lives, try to avoid making others' lives
>difficult, and to make love...

with greater challenge comes improvement! I do not accept humanity in the
chains of its own insecurity.

>
>--
>Jason Haines, aka Baron
>INTERNET:[e-mail]  UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!jason
>ACSNet:  [e-mail]
>_______________________________________________________________________


ALEX BUNKER
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com!ichips!intelhf!agora!krowell
From: [e-mail] (Keith Rowell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Request for info
Keywords: Periodicals, conferences
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 17:49:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Lines: 395

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Christian G. Smith) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) writes:
>>Would someone please be so kind as to post the names, addresses and
>>telephone numbers of some reputable magazines which deal with the UFO
>>phenomenon?

MUFON UFO Journal
MUFON
103 Oldtowne Rd.
Seguin, TX  78155
$25/year

International UFO Reporter
J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies
2457 West Peterson Avenue
Chicago, IL  60659
$25/year


About Timothy Good's Above Top Secret: The Worldwide UFO Cover-up:

>  Amen.  VERY good book.  Are there any others of it's caliber and if so, what
>are they?
>



UFO Books -- The Serious Literature
Compiled by Keith Rowell
[Please pass this list along intact to anyone who wants a copy.]

This list is a quick guide to the best of the wide range of UFO
books.  The literature varies from naive believers to fanatic
debunkers. This list, however, features the people in the middle:
the UFO researchers. They believe genuine UFOs are a mystery
needing a solution.  Unlike UFO researchers, the naive believers
and debunkers think alike since they both believe the mystery is
solved.  Naive believers "know" genuine UFOs are flying saucers
piloted by space beings.  Debunkers "know" it is all just
psychology or perhaps some as yet undiscovered physical
phenomenon. However, when mainstream scholars and scientists
finally accept the challenge of the UFO mystery (which they
haven't for 40 years now), the naive believers will probably be
closer to the truth than the debunkers.

In order to join the debate about the reality of the saucers, you
need to read at least half of these books. If you haven't, you
haven't done the first thing that any scholar or scientist does
-- a literature search and perusal (peruse means to read
carefully, don't forget!). Remember, your opinion is worth no
more than the depth of your understanding of a topic. The UFO,
strange as it may seem to some of you, has a serious literature
devoted it. Yes, it's true, this literature is definitely not
scientific or scholarly in the strict sense of the word, but that
is simply because enough scientists and scholars are not aware of
the problem of the UFO yet. Every year, especially in the
eighties and nineties, more and more scientists and scholars are
turning a serious eye to the problem. This is happening despite the
orchestration of negative opinion promoted over the years by the
intelligence establishment of the US. Sad to say, US intelligence
is part and parcel of the UFO problem. Anyone who ignores this is
just plain naive.


Berlitz, Charles and William L. Moore. The Roswell Incident. New
York: Grosset & Dunlap, 1980. 168pp. ISBN 0-448-21199-8.  The
facts about the crash of a saucer in the summer of 1947 in New
Mexico and how the US government covered it up. See Randle and
Schmitt, too.

Bowen, Charles, ed.  The Humanoids. Chicago: Henry Regnery, 1969.
256pp.  LC 77-126142. Good summary of the evidence compiled from
material published in the British Flying Saucer Review magazine.

Blum, Howard.  Out There: The Government's Secret Quest for
Extraterrestrials. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1990. 300pp.
ISBN 0-671-66260-0.  An important book since it is written by a
former NY Times reporter who has written two other influential
books -- one about Nazi intelligence officers brought to America
illegally after WWII and the other about the Walker spy case.
However, Blum's UFO book was apparently hastily done and, thus,
somewhat of a disappointment in the UFO research community.

Bullard, Thomas Edward.  UFO Abductions: The Measure of a
Mystery. Vol. 1: Comparative Study of Abduction Reports.
(Bloomington, IND): Fund for UFO Research, 1987. 402pp.  This
study by a PhD folklorist is must reading for anyone wanting to
understand the depth and breadth of the abduction enigma. Bullard
concludes UFO abduction stories are much too internally
consistent down to small details to be classed as traditional
folklore or typical dream material.

Butler, Brenda, Dot Street, and Jenny Randles.  Sky Crash: A
Cosmic Conspiracy. Sudbury, Great Britain: Neville Spearman,
1984. 283pp.  ISBN 85435-155-8. Review and analysis of the facts
in the British Bentwaters-Rendlesham RAFB case.

Clark, Jerome. The UFO Encyclopedia, Volume 1: UFOs in the 1980s.
Detroit, MI: Apogee Books, 1990. 234pp.  ISBN 1-55888-301-0. This
encyclopedia is mostly the author's tour de force, but still
delivers valuable information not easily available elsewhere.
Libraries should have this.

Condon, Edward U. and Daniel S. Gillmor (ed.).  Final Report of
the Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects (Conducted by
the University of Colorado Under Contract to the United States
Air Force). New York: Bantam Books, 1968. 965pp.  After close,
competent study of over 100 UFO sighting reports, 30% couldn't be
identified!  Read Condon's prejudiced introduction only after you
have looked through the rest of the study.  The National Academy
of Sciences rubber-stamped Condon's recommendations that no
public funds be devoted to the study of UFOs.

Conroy, Ed.  Report on Communion: An Independent Investigation of
and Commentary on Whitley Strieber's Communion. New York: Morrow,
1989. 427pp.  ISBN 0-688-08864-3.  This journalist was a boyhood
acquaintance of Strieber. When Strieber published Communion,
Conroy decided to see if his story would hold up under an
investigative journalist's scrutiny. Conroy says yes.

Curran, Douglas.  In Advance of the Landing: Folk Concepts of
Outer Space. New York: Abbeville Press, 1985. 132pp.  ISBN
0-89659-523-4.  Interesting photographic presentation of UFO
folklore.

Deardorff, James W. Celestial Teachings: The Emergence of the
True Testament of Jmmanuel (Jesus). Tigard, OR: Wild Flower
Press, 1990. 323pp.  ISBN 0-926524-11-9. An analysis of some of
the collateral material from the extensive Billy Meier contact
case.

Delgado, Pat and Colin Andrews.  Circular Evidence: A Detailed
Investigation of the Flattened Swirled Crops Phenomenon. London:
Bloomsbury, 1989. 190pp.  ISBN 0-7475-0357-5.  The first of the
picture books about crop "circles".  It's a very good
presentation of the facts and their investigative methods. Some
investigators believe UFOs may produce the "circles".

Druffel, Ann and D. Scott Rogo.  The Tujunga Canyon Contacts.
Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall, 1980. 264pp.  ISBN
0-13-932541-7.  Good book about abduction/contact experiences.

Eberhart, George M.  UFOs and the Extraterrestrial Contact
Movement: a bibliography. Metuchen, NJ: Scarecrow Press, 1986.
1298pp.  ISBN 0-8108-1919-8.  An outstanding listing of books,
articles, movies, TV appearances, dissertations, conferences,
etc., about UFOs and related phenomena.  No library in America
should be without it.  Ask your public library to get a copy
today!!

Emenegger, Robert.  UFO's: Past, Present and Future. New York:
Ballantine Books, 1974. 180pp.  ISBN 345-24189-4-150.  Good
general book.  Emenegger produced a film documentary of the same
name.  The US government hinted that it would give him some
"real" flying saucer footage for inclusion in his film.  This
didn't happen.

Evans, Hilary and John Spencer (eds.).  UFOs: 1947-1987 -- The
40-Year Search for an Explanation. London: Fortean Tomes, 1987.
384pp.  ISBN 1-870021-02-9.  Similar to the other book by Spencer
and Evans, but more extensive. A must read for dedicated
ufologists.

Fawcett, Lawrence and Barry J. Greenwood.  Clear Intent: The
Government Coverup of the UFO Experience. Englewood Cliffs, N.J.:
Prentice-Hall, 1984. 259pp.  ISBN 0-13-136656-4.  Very important
book summarizing what ufologists know from studying the thousands
of FOIA-released government UFO documents.  Everything but proof
of crashed flying saucers is here, and it's all from
FOIA-released documents!

Flammonde, Paris.  UFO Exist! New York: Putnam, 1976. 406pp.
ISBN 399-11538-2.  Fine history of the subject from a radio
producer/journalist. The book details the US government's
involvement.

Fowler, Raymond E.  The Andreasson Affair. Englewood Cliffs, NJ:
Prentice-Hall, 1979. 239pp.  ISBN 0-13-036608-0. First book about
a now famous abductee, Betty Andreasson Luca.

Good, Timothy.  Above Top Secret: The Worldwide UFO Cover-Up. New
York: William Morrow, 1988. 592pp.  ISBN 0-688-07860-5.  The most
important book about the on-going government cover-up.

Haines, Richard F., ed.  UFO Phenomena and the Behavioral
Scientist. Metuchen, N.J.: The Scarecrow Press, 1979. 450pp.
ISBN 0-8108-1228-2.  Scholarly book of papers on how eye
witnesses report UFOs and what cultural factors influence UFO
reports.

Haines, Richard F. Advanced Aerial Devices Reported During the
Korean War. Los Altos, CA: LDA Press, 1990. 75pp.  ISBN
0-9618082-1-7. An important study of early military UFO
sightings.

Haines, Richard F.  Melbourne Episode: Case Study of a Missing
Pilot. Los Altos, CA: L. D. A. Press, 1987. 275pp.  ISBN
0-88229-540-3.  Detailed review and analysis of the Australian
Valentich airplane abduction case.

Haines, Richard F.  Observing UFOs: An Investigative Handbook.
Chicago: Nelson-Hall, 1980. 300pp.  ISBN 0-88229-540-3.
Exceedingly cautious scientific study of mostly night lights and
daylight discs categories of UFOs.

Hall, Richard.  Uninvited Guests: A Documented History of UFO
Sightings, Alien Encounters & Coverups. Santa Fe, NM: Aurora
Press, 1988. 381pp.  ISBN 0-943358-32-9.  A very good summary of
the whole field of ufology. Highly recommended as a place to
start.

Hendry, Allan. The UFO Handbook: A Guide to Investigating,
Evaluating, and Reporting UFO Sightings. Garden City, NY:
Doubleday (Dolphin), 1979. 297pp. ISBN 0-385-14348-6.  The best
study of the subject.  About 1300 UFO reports, all happening
within the year of the study's duration, are dissected.  8.6%
fall into the genuine UFOs category, that is, flying saucers,
whatever they are!

Hopkins, Budd.  Intruders: The Incredible Visitations at Copley
Woods. New York: Random House, 1987. 223pp.  ISBN 0-394-56076-0.
Hopkins' second book.  He says it is likely that aliens are
mixing our genes with theirs, and this is a major purpose of the
abductions.

Hopkins, Budd. Missing Time: A Documented Study of UFO Abductions.
New York: Richard Marek, 1981. 258pp. ISBN 0-399-90102-7.  Hopkins'
first book about abductions.

Howe, Linda Moulton.  An Alien Harvest: Further Evidence Linking
Animal Mutilations and Human Abductions to Alien Life Forms.
Littleton, CO: Linda Moulton Howe Productions, 1989. 455pp.  ISBN
0-9620570-1-0.  Best book of surprisingly few considering the 25
year history of animal mutilations.

Holroyd, Stuart.  Alien Intelligence.  New York: Everest House,
1979. 231pp.  ISBN 0-89696-040-4.  An excellent book by a student
of the paranormal that compares the different kinds of
intelligence, including ET intelligence and "disembodied"
intelligence.

Hynek, J. Allen, Philip J. Imbrogno, and Bob Pratt.  Night Siege:
The Hudson Valley UFO Sightings. New York: Ballantine Books,
1987. 208pp.  ISBN 0-345-34213-5.  About the early 1980s
boomerang UFO flap involving thousands of sightings.

Hynek, J. Allen.  The UFO Experience: A Scientific Inquiry. New
York: Ballantine Books, 1972. 309pp.  ISBN 345-23953-9-150.  The
father of modern ufology writes a solid book about the subject.

Jacobs, David Michael.  The UFO Controversy in America.
Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press, 1975. 362pp.  ISBN
0-253-19006-1.  A historian's review of ufology up to the date of
publication.

Keyhoe, Donald E.  Aliens from Space: The Real Story of
Unidentified Flying Objects. Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1973.
322pp.  Keyhoe says the US government has crashed saucers and
alien bodies.  He's probably right. The last of Keyhoe's five
books about UFOs.

Kinder, Gary.  Light Years: An Investigation into the
Extraterrestrial Experiences of Eduard Meier. New York: Atlantic
Monthly Press, 1987. 265pp.  ISBN 0-87113-139-0.  Easy
introduction to the complex Billy Meier case.  The case is noted
for outstanding photos and film of UFOs and extensive contact
notes.

Knight, David C.  UFOs: A Pictorial History From Antiquity to the
Present. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1979. 192pp.  ISBN 0-07-035103-1.
UFO photos galore.

Lorenzen, Coral and Jim Lorenzen.  Flying Saucer Occupants. New
York: New American Library (Signet), 1967. 215pp.  One of many
important books by longtime UFO researchers and directors of the
UFO investigative organization, APRO. Both deceased today, but
not forgotten for their lasting contribution to ufology.

McCambell, James M.  UFOLOGY: A Major Breakthrough in the
Scientific Understanding of Unidentified Flying Objects.
Millbrae, CA: Celestial Arts, 1976. 184pp.  ISBN 0-89087-144-2.
Straightforward analysis of probable physics of UFO phenomena.

Noyes, Ralph, ed.  The Crop Circle Enigma: Grounding the
Phenomenon in Science, Culture and Metaphysics. Bath, UK: Gateway
Books, 1990. 192pp.  ISBN 0-946551-66-9. More facts and
speculation about the "agriglyphs".

Randle, Kevin D. and Donald R. Schmitt.  UFO Crash at Roswell.
New York: Avon, 1991. 327pp.  ISBN 0-380-76196-3. The authors
don't back down. They say they have proved beyond a reasonable
doubt that a flying saucer -- not a UFO -- crashed in NM in the
summer of 1947.  Get off your duff.  Prove them wrong!

Randles, Jenny. Abduction: Over 200 Documented UFO Kidnappings
Investigated. London: Robert Hale, 1988. 240pp.  ISBN
0-7090-3276-5. A British UFO researcher does a book about
abductions. It is important for showing that abductions are not
just a North (or South) American  phenomenon.

Randles, Jenny.  The UFO Conspiracy: The First Forty Years. New
York: Blanford Press, 1987. 224pp.  ISBN 0-7137-1972-9.
Excellent summary of the worldwide coverup of UFO information.

Randles, Jenny. UFO Reality: A Critical Look at the Physical
Evidence. London: Robert Hale, 1983. 248pp.  ISBN 0-7090-1080-X.
Very good presentation of the range of evidence for genuine UFO
reality.

Randles, Jenny and Peter Warrington.  Science and the UFOs.
Oxford, U.K.: Basil Blackwell, 1985. 215pp.  ISBN 0-631-13563-4.
Why the science establishment doesn't recognize and study UFOs.

Ruppelt, Edward J. The Report of Unidentified Flying Objects.
Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1956. 277pp. Written by a former
head of the AF's Project Blue Book public relations UFO effort.
"Brand New Enlarged Edition Latest, Up-to-the-minute Facts on
UFO!" on dust jacket.  No indication whatsoever inside the new
edition that it differs from the earlier edition by the addition
of three extra (debunking) chapters.  Without the dust jacket you
would never know there are two distinct editions of this classic
UFO book.  Some UFO researchers speculate that the Air Force/CIA
was displeased enough with Ruppelt's pro-UFO first edition that
they made him include the last three chapters in the "new
edition"!

Sagan, Carl and Thorton Page, eds.  UFO's -- A Scientific Debate.
New York: Norton, 1972. 310pp.  ISBN 0-393-00739-1.  Appeared
shortly after the Condon Committee Report said once again that
saucers don't exist so they won't be studied by science.  UFO
proponents, debunkers, and honest skeptics have their say here.

Salisbury, Frank B. The Utah UFO Display: A Biologist's Report.
Old Greenwich, CN: Devin-Adair, 1974. 286pp.  ISBN
0-8159-7000-5.  Straightforward recounting of UFO events in Utah
1966-1973 with some intelligent speculation about what it might
mean.

Saunders, David R. and R. Roger Harkins.  UFOs? Yes! Where the
Condon Committee Went Wrong. New York: World Publishing, 1968.
256pp.  LC 68-59202.  This book was written by a scientist
(Saunders) fired by Condon when he leaked a confidential
department memo that made it clear that the Condon UFO Study was
a sham.

Schwarz, Berthold E.  UFO Dynamics: Psychiatric and Psychic
Aspects of the UFO Syndrome. Moore Haven, FL: Rainbow Books,
1988. 560pp.  ISBN 0-935834-64-8.  A psychiatrist deals with the
psychic components of the UFO phenomena.

Scully, Frank.  Behind the Flying Saucers. New York: Henry Holt,
1950. 230pp.  The first book in English about UFOs.  Hollywood
reporter talks about crashed discs that have only become
plausible to mainstream investigators again in the 1980s.

Sitchin, Zecharia.  The 12th Planet.  New York: Avon, 1978.
436pp.  ISBN 0-380-39362-X. This lay scholar/journalist presents
the best documented ancient astronaut evidence in his series of
books -- this being the first one.

Spencer, John and Hilary Evans, eds.  Phenomenon: Forty Years of
Flying Saucers. New York: Avon Books, 1988. 413pp.  ISBN
0-380-70654-7.  Essays about ufology from prominent ufologists in
America and Europe.  Good for seeing that UFOs are a worldwide
phenomenon.

Story, Ronald, ed. The Encyclopedia of UFOs. Garden City, NY:
Doubleday (Dolphin Books), 1980. 440pp. ISBN 0-385-11681-0.  The
best of the encyclopedic books on UFOs.  Don't miss this.  Get
your local library to buy a copy.

Strieber, Whitley.  Communion: A True Story. New York: William
Morrow, 1987. 299pp.  ISBN 0-688-07086-8.  Bestselling book by
previously bestselling author.  It's about his probable
abductions.

Vallee, Jacques.  Confrontations: A Scientist's Search for Alien
Contact. New York: Ballantine Books, 1990. 263pp.  ISBN
0-345-36453-8. Vallee is back to presenting "hard evidence" again
instead of speculation. Some Brazilian peasants were killed in
apparent encounters with UFOs.

Vallee, Jacques.  Dimensions: A Casebook of Alien Contact. New
York: Contemporary Books, 1988. 304pp.  ISBN 0-8092-4586-8. The
best statement of Vallee's thesis -- UFOs are a manifestation of
a time immemorial alien control system.

Vallee, Jacques.  Messengers of Deception: UFO Contacts and
Cults. Berkeley, CA: And/Or Press, 1979. 243pp.  ISBN
0-915904-38-1.

Vallee, Jacques.  Passport to Magonia: From Folklore to Flying
Saucers. Chicago: Henry Regnery, 1969. 372pp.  ISBN
0-8092-8330-1. A study of the surprising parallels between fairy
lore and modern accounts of UFO beings.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!news.cs.indiana.edu!nstn.ns.ca!ac.dal.ca!ogre
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: mood music
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Sep 91 02:06:19 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Lines: 4

speaking of ufo's, everyone should listen to the pixies while on this
newsgroup. fits the atmosphere, honest!

o.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Who's seen a 'Grey' ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 17:12:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Geoff Lane) writes:
>Are these Grey men in any way related to the "Men in Black" that used
>to be reported as following up peoples UFO reports and warning the
>orginators of the reports not to talk with the media?

"Grey" is the common name for the short grey aliens commonly reported by
abductees.  Who (or what) the Men In Black are, and who they work for, is
anyone's guess.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Implants, end of world, etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 17:36:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Iain Jameson) writes:
>
>Unless it is all a conspiricy by the secret US government.

I suspect that the government is up to a lot of things it's not telling us
about, but I can't even begin to speculate on whether the aliens are one of
them.

>Got to go, the greys want to go shopping.

Well don't forget the strawberry ice cream!  Last time that happened to me,
I had to call in Delta Force to get the situation under control.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 17:19:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>will have something to talk to us about. unfortunately sci.skeptic and
>alt.atheism types are still outnumbered by silly UFO and PSI fairytalers
>mentally confined faith adherers and pathetic flag waving tribalistic
>patriots.

Although I tend to agree with you on some points, I would advise you to
read some of Jacques Vallee's books (I just finished "Confrontations", and
recommend it highly) before lumping everything that doesn't fit your
current worldview into the category of "silly UFO and PSI fairytalers."
Sure there's a lot of ridiculous stuff out there, but as Vallee shows,
there are also a lot of highly credible reports of ships and entities that
defy classification by those who would prefer to believe in flesh-and-blood
ETs and nuts-and-bolts saucers or nothing at all.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Implants, end of world, etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 17:32:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Iain Jameson) writes:
>Has anyone else noticed that the themes that
>continue to pop up on this group are also
>plots for a number of sci-fi/fantasy novels
>that came out about 10 years ago?

Such themes go back a lot further than 10 years.  Bertrand Meheust (see
"Confrontations" by Jacques Vallee) has found science-fiction stories from
before WW II (and sometimes before WW I) which resemble modern UFO reports.
Unfortunately these do very little to discredit the phenomenon.  It's
possible that they point toward a complex psychological explanation for the
phenomenon, except for the fact that there are cases in which the UFOs
leave evidence of their existence -- including, as Vallee found, beam
wounds.  His theory seems to be that the UFOs and the "aliens" are part of
a multidimensional reality, because there are a lot of undeniable reports
of them doing things that simply don't make sense if you assume that
they're ordinary living beings traveling to Earth from ordinary extrasolar
planets.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!hp4nl!and!jos
From: [e-mail] (Jos Horsmeier)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.native
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Sep 91 16:09:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: AND Software BV Rotterdam
Lines: 40
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15501 alt.alien.visitors:2167 alt.native:532

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Swift) writes:
|In article <[e-mail]> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:
|>
|>Gerry Roston's Responses so far have been:
|>
|>>The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the
|>>European culture.  They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age,
|>>farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had
|>>eveolved, etc.
|
|This betrays a considerable amount of ignorance (if not racism)
|with respect to the native north Americans.  The fact is that
|many pre-Columbian N. American farming techniques were superior
|to those of the Europeans, including the use of sophisticated
|irrigation systems and fertilizer; the Anasazi had domesticated
|animals; and not only did some Indian cultures build towns, they
|constructed elaborate road systems between them.
|

[ Another bunch of racist remarks and excellent responses deleted ]

If Mr. Roston's definition of `civilization' and `culture' includes
the phrase: `and ruins it's own habitat within a few centuries' I must
agree with him. Otherwise, I don't find Indian culture `retarded'.

One must actually be very clever to realise, that living in some sort
of balance with your surroundings, without destroying it completely,
gives you more chance to survive in a pleasant way for millennia!
And our european (or american) `civilizations' (note the quotes)
are not far enough evolved yet, to realise that!

BTW Ever heared of the Incas, the Aztecs, the Mayas, the great old
Indian civilizations (like the Vedians) where there roots of the
American Indians are. We (us western civilized people) destroyed it
completely. Were we jealous or something.

Boy, I'd better stop, Mr. Roston's type make me puke! Calling people
primitive, he should have lived in the seventeenth century! Yuch!

Jos ([e-mail])
Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Uncritical thinking about the Lazar material
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Sep 91 22:41:05 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 127


I have been thinking recently about the Robert Lazar material relating
to the element-115 antimatter reactors that he claimed to work on at "S-4"
near Groom Lake, Nevada (Dreamland?) The antimatter reactors were alleged to
be the drive source for some of the alien craft studied in a secret U.S.
government base.

While I was tossing the information around in my head assessing it's
validity, I decided to think about some of the possible implications if
it *were* true. For the moment, I considered the information as valid
and tried to see where it would take me.

It was an exercise in uncritical thinking, and I am well aware that
it doesn't prove anything. I'm not trying to sell it to anyone and I don't
mind seeing it ripped to shreds, but it is *fun*, and there is always the
chance that something valid could come about as a result. What I am most
interested in is feedback on the ideas and any current information on the
Lazar material itself. Sorry in advance for the blatantly anthropomorphic
stuff.


Here is some of Lazar's claims (gleaned from net postings and Timothy
Good's book "Alien Liaison"):

- the U.S. government possesses at least 9 different alien space craft and
  some 500 lb (kg?) of element-115. 225 grams of element-115 are sufficient
  to power a reactor.
- the U.S. government has had "relations" with extraterrestrials who have
  cooperated at least partially in the U.S. attempt to use alien technology,
  either by providing it or by allowing us to keep what we recovered.
- the reactors produced a gravity wave when protons were fired at element-115.
  The gravity wave was then amplified and used to propel the "UFO" around the
  universe.
- one method of propulsion was to focus the gravity waves at a distant point
  in space and "pull" that point towards the ship together by bending space.
  When the gravity was turned off, space would "snap" back into position and
  the ship would be in the new position. A new position that may be very,
  very far from the original position.
- Lazar claimed that ships using this drive mechanism could travel *much*
  faster than the speed of light. (Although technically they wouldn't actually
  *travel* from A to B, they would instantaneously "snap" from A to B and
  their effective speed (distance/time) would be many times the speed of
  light.)
- the element-115 that all of this is supposed to be dependent on is claimed
  to be a naturally occurring (very heavy) element, but one that doesn't
  naturally occur around our particular point in the immediate universe.



Wild assumptions based on (temporarily) accepting the Lazar material:

(I am also temporarily accepting that there are several other
intelligent civilizations in the universe. The Lazar material hints
at this but doesn't explicitly state it as far as I remember.)

- the speed of light is not a barrier to the effective exploration of space,
  it is feasible to travel across galaxies quickly and efficiently.
- human scientists at Lazar's S-4 are capable of understanding the basic
  operations of the reactors which are based on an extension of currently
  known physics.
- If gravity *can* be used in this way, how long from now  would we discover
  it, perhaps 100 years (when the electromagnetic, strong, and weak forces are
  unified with gravity? :-)
- it seems likely that a given civilization would "discover" the new physics
  necessary to design similar craft at a stage of development perhaps only a
  hundred or so years in "advance" of our own. Earlier if they were given
  examples to play with.
- if the aliens allowed *us* to keep these craft, they probably allow other
  civilizations on other planets to retain and analyze similar craft.
- other civilizations could even develop the technology at a point earlier in
  their development than us if they had the element-115 occurring naturally on
  their planet (imagine if our 1890's physicists had a chunk of the stuff.)
  The  alien civilization could be traveling in space before they have
  developed other technologies.



Yeah, but does it explain anything?


Gross speculation based on wild assumptions generated by temporarily
accepting highly suspect material:

- maybe the little grey buggers really *don't* have a clue about proper
  medical procedures. They may not have progressed that far in the medical
  department. Maybe they thought hypnotic memory suppression was a good idea
  at the time. Maybe they don't mind needles up *their* noses (so why would
  we?)
- perhaps the variety of (humanoid) alien body shapes reported over the years
  (fairies/gnomes as well) is the result of the huge number of different alien
  civilizations all traveling around the universe at the same time.
  (The ammonia-sucking jellyfish would presumably travel to ammonia rich
  planets, leaving the humanoid's to visit "humanoid-friendly" planets :-)
- perhaps some of the aliens are not advanced enough to avoid crashing their
  saucers.
- the aliens may not be advanced enough to avoid contradicting themselves.
  ("Pictures are forbidden" - "Hey come here, get your camera")
- different groups of aliens could have very different motives, good and bad.
  Imagine what the CIA would do 100 years from now if we had mastered
  interstellar travel. Would our motives, methods, morals, ethics, and nature
  change that drastically in 100 years. The insignias and uniforms witnessed on
  UFO occupants could be their equivalent of the CIA.
- maybe the observed cultural tracking of UFO shapes takes place because they
  are still coming out with newer, more advanced models. Maybe even borrowing
  from our technology (or attempting to blend in.)
- with so many alien civilizations capable of flying around the universe, there
  could be some kind of cosmic "police force" that enforces universal laws
  against interfering with "primitive" cultures ala "Star Trek". Any aliens
  we see or contact would therefore be rebels.
- SETI may not have found evidence of extraterrestrial life because the
  aliens have arrived several million years before their radio signals.
- the *really* advanced civilizations probably *don't* get caught.


I better quit before I lose all sense of reality.

Hey - maybe this is how the National Enquirer comes up with their stuff :-)





--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail] |       \\?!//         | t                    |
***********************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!ucsd!dog.ee.lbl.gov!csa1.lbl.gov!jtchew
From: [e-mail] (JOSEPH T CHEW)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Sep 91 22:16:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Lines: 28
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15516 alt.alien.visitors:2169
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4
X-Local-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 91 09:06:53 PDT

>> We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we
>> had previously dropped on at Los Alamos.

Here's a minor quibble not especially related to our topic of whether
flying saucers exist and if so whether they give rides.

I don't think all that much was known in detail about A-bomb effects after
the test at Trinity Site (a good 150 miles from Los Alamos, which is
still there, by the way).  They knew that it would make a shock wave
similar to that of several thousand tons of TNT, and that there would
be plenty of neutrons and X-rays and a thermal pulse, and radioactive
schmutz flying around -- and that a lot of people would get killed if you
let one off over a city.  The difference in effects between an air burst and a
near-ground burst like the Trinity test could probably be guessed at decently.

But a _great_ deal of work remained to be done in the late 40s and early
50s, in addition to much poring over the remains of Hiroshima and Nagasaki,
to characterize weapons effects quantitatively and in detail.  For an
idea of what was known versus what was merely speculated upon in the mid-
40s, I refer you to the various Project Y histories -- especially the
number of "experts" who were wrong, some low and some high, about the size
of the blast.

Tom Clancy, of all people, said it best:  it's not magic, it's just a
bigger bomb with some interesting additional effects.

--Joe
"Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Who was exposed?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Sep 91 23:21:21 GMT
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I have read on the net about *Ed Walters* being exposed as a (probable)
fraud because someone found models of Flying Saucers just like the ones
he photographed in the attic of the house he recently moved out of.

I have also read on the net that *Billy Meier* has been exposed as a
(probable) fraud because someone found models of Flying Saucers just like
the ones he photographed in the attic of the house he recently moved out of.

I would appreciate it if someone could tell me if either one (or both) of
these exposures is true. It seems too much of a coincidence that the same
thing could happen to both of them, but it does seem likely that the same
exposure could accidentally be applied to the wrong UFO photographer(s).

I just want to get my facts straight. Any evidence and additional information
would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks in advance.


Leonard.




--
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| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail] |       \\?!//         | t                    |
***********************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Evidence, Beam Wounds, etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Sep 91 23:17:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:


Stuff deleted....

>..... except for the fact that there are cases in which the UFOs
> leave evidence of their existence -- including, as Vallee found, beam
> wounds.



BEAM WOUNDS ?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Meier and Walters [was: Re:  Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Sep 91 15:32:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Leonard Spani) writes:
>I have heard that Ed Walters has been exposed because someone found
>UFO models in his attic. I have also heard that it was the fellow in Europe
>(Billy Mier(sp?)) who talks to Pliedians who was exposed because someone
>found models in *his* attic.
>
>Did they both have UFO models in their respective attics? :-)

Someone found a model in the attic of Ed's old house.  Ed is apparently
claiming that it was put there to discredit him.

I never paid much attention to the Meier case, but I think the attempted
explanation for the models found in his barn is that he made them *after*
he took the pictures.  You'll have to get the details from someone else --
and I'm sure there are a few people here who will offer them :-)

--
  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!mtiame!iconix!ajm
From: [e-mail] (Andrew Mack,Iconix,x222)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Alien names
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Sep 91 07:20:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail]:
>      In my last trip to Phoenix for the  UFO Conference I had the opportunity
> to tape an couple of people named Shield and Sharula Dux.   They claim to be
> from a city underneath Mt. Shasta called Telos.   This city has one and  one
>...
> Telos.   They do operate some of the space ships that are seen in our skies.
> The overall leader of their space fleet is called  Ashtar and a command of one
> of their fleet called the Silver fleet is called Anton.

Why do these UFO-type people and places usually have names like Telos and
Ashtar?  Why are they never called things like Zonko or Dorko or Klong?

"Hi, I'm Donko from the planet Ning-Nong."
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!d75!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!craigb
From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: America with No European Contact (was Re: UFOs and Abductees)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Sep 91 14:58:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15538 alt.alien.visitors:2174

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> joe@teton (
Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes:
...
> >greatly to their problems.  If the Europeans hadn't developed the
> >technology to sail the ocean and arrive in America, I think the
> >American Indians would be doing pretty well right now.
...
>     That might have just changed who got to punt on the nomadic cultures.
> The South and Central American cultures (Mayans, Inca, and Aztecs) might have
> decided to expand northward, and they do appear to have had a technological
> and sociological edge on many North American cultures. Granted, I
really don't
> think the Incas and Mayans could have gotten around the rather large
roadblock
> north of them, but didn't the Aztecs trade and war with cultures north of
> them?
>
>     I've always thought the Mississippi was extraordinarily well-suited
> to provide a 'road' through-out the interior of North America. If we
had never
> exploited it thus, *someone* eventually would have set up a culture which
> *did* (And probably did. How far south did the Mandans trade? Did they get
> as far south as the northern Mississippi?). A very well-designed river
> system, indeed :)

For an interesting treatment of this idea, check out Harold Waldrop's _Roll
Them Bones_. Also, Mick Farren's _Necrom_ touches briefly on an Aztec culture
that developed nuclear weapons in the early 17th century and bombed the
bejeezus outta Europe before they could colonize the Americas.

Craig

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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-- "As far back as I can remember,      Internet: [e-mail] --
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!nstar!caen!ldoering
From: [e-mail] (Laurence Doering)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Request for info
Summary: Condon and the USAF study
Keywords: Periodicals, conferences
Message-ID: <sxK_r#[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Sep 91 06:08:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 65

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Keith Rowell) writes:
>[in his bibliography of UFO literature]
>
>Condon, Edward U. and Daniel S. Gillmor (ed.).  Final Report of
>the Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects (Conducted by
>the University of Colorado Under Contract to the United States
>Air Force). New York: Bantam Books, 1968. 965pp.  After close,
>competent study of over 100 UFO sighting reports, 30% couldn't be
>identified!  Read Condon's prejudiced introduction only after you
>have looked through the rest of the study.  The National Academy
>of Sciences rubber-stamped Condon's recommendations that no
>public funds be devoted to the study of UFOs.
>
(Disclaimer:  I don't have a copy of this book with me, so my comments
are based on my having read it several years ago.)

You're correct that Condon et al. were proceeding from the initial
assumption that the great majority of UFO reports could be explained
as ordinary (or unusual) events that were not understood by the observers.
(I assume this is what you mean when you refer to the "prejudiced"
introduction.)  The main point of the book is that UFOs are just that -
unidentified flying objects, and that most people don't have the experience
or knowledge to identify things they see in the sky.
While it's true that the investigators were unable to explain around 30%
of the reports, the book clearly states that the cases they were unable
to assign a cause to were cases where there was little evidence (typically
one or two people driving at night, reporting that they saw a bright light
over the road that approached their car, causing it to stall or something.)
In these cases, there was no independent confirmation, no physical evidence,
etc. so the investigators concluded that they couldn't say one way or another
what the witnesses had seen.
The explained cases are interesting though, and say a great deal about
the reliability (or lack thereof) of eyewitness testimony.  Two that I
remember were:
The investigators found some college students who had released several
balloons constructed from dry-cleaning bags and birthday candles at night.
They were able to find and interview a number of people who had seen
the balloons.  Most reported seeing 3 or 4 flame-colored lights "traveling
in formation" that moved across the sky for 10 minutes or so and then
disappeared.  One observer, though, reported seeing a 75-foot long
transparent blimp-shaped object with a ring of lights underneath.

The investigators found two pilots who had gone flying at night in a small
twin-engined plane equipped with a searchlight with the intention of
"scaring up some UFO reports."  The pilots saw the flashlights of a
party of people on the ground who were out raccoon hunting, and circled
the area for a while at low altitude, playing with the searchlight.
Members of the hunting party who were interviewed all agreed that a flying
object had approached them, making no noise, and had blinked a light at
them "as if it was trying to signal to them."  Each witness had a different
description of the object and the lights on it.  Only one witness said
the "UFO" had red, green, and white lights.

There's a long chapter devoted to "anomalous propagation" and its effect
on radar systems (basically atmospheric ducting and reflecting surfaces
on the ground) that can cause weird things to show up on radar.  There's
another chapter that describes things (including a Soviet rocket booster)
seen in orbit by the Gemini astronauts.

Anyway, this book is an interesting look at the skeptical side of things -
it shows that most people, even experienced pilots, radar operators, and
astronauts, can easily misinterpret relatively ordinary phenomena.

Larry Doering
[e-mail]  -or-  [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Sep 91 05:41:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 38
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15541 alt.paranormal:3180 alt.alien.visitors:2176 talk.religion.newage:6962

Brian Siano comments

>        Dan, I've read the transcripts you've posted, and I'm perfectly
>willing to believe that they come from a higher form of intelligence.
>However, I'm going to require proof. And I have a test that would be
>satisfactory proof.
>        I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem
>for me.
> ... more stating the problem
>        If they can provide a proof, they would be providing us with
>knowledge currently unknown by man... but knowledge that _can_ be verified
>empirically. And I'd be surprised if a higher intelligence could lower itself
>to perform symbolic logic.
>Solve it, and you've got a convert. (Maybe even a Nobel.)

First neither I nor them are looking for converts.  Converts give their power
away to their converter. So Brian, do you honestly think there is a solution
to that problem?  Would you be willing to believe that you come from higher
intelligence?  Would you let yourself prove it by accessing your higher
intelligence and solving the problem if you believe there is a solution?  This
is the whole point of bringing all of this up.  It is basically that we all
can be channels of higher intelligence in whatever area we wish (intend) to. I
feel that there are lots of individuals on this net that are closing their
connection to higher intelligence by limiting beliefs they hold about
themselves and reality.  What if you proved that you were connected to
infinite intelligence, first cause, prime creator and you could use that in
whatever way you wanted?  So Brian if you believe there is a solution why
don t you pretend that the higher intelligences are in your head trying to
tell you the solution.  Then get very relaxed and listen very carefully and
hear it or maybe sit down at your terminal and autotype it out.  And if you
did that you could even say you did it yourself and get your Nobel.  The
higher intelligences give away information freely. One other pointer, Tesla
used to hyperventilate to improve his powers of visualization. He would
design, build, and run a motor for a period of time, dismantel it and see
where the parts were worn, all in his head. He actually acknowledged the
assistance he was getting from higher intelligence.

Don Showen
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Sep 91 05:40:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 57
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15542 alt.paranormal:3181 alt.alien.visitors:2177 talk.religion.newage:6963

Steve - Graziano comments and asks

>1.  How do Alien beings from another world (another time,place) know of
>english words like "Shenanigans", "busters", and other slang terms when it
>usually takes several years for a foreign person to just 'grasp' the language
>much less learn the 'slang' terms for it?  (I don't think just using Barbara's
>mind to do 'automatic' translations could do it, but I am open to any
>explanations.

They do seem to perceive a lot through Barbra's perceptions and mind and the
minds whose energy they read.  They also mentioned they wanted Barbara to learn
some math mainly in the area of geometry as they have often mentioned the
language of light or sacred geometry.  And I suspect that if Barbara would
learn some geometry that they could go into more detail.  I worked with another
channel who could bring through entities of choice.  She brought through
Tesla and Einstein, they both commented that she ( the channel) would have to
learn some technical vocabulary before they could go into the juicy technical
stuff.  Now this is one of my personal motives for putting all of this on the net.
Instead of teaching a none technical person technical stuff, why not encourage
technical people to channel.

>2.  On a more curious level, the transcripts talk about dracos, lizzies, etc.
>Is there anything that elaborates on this?

By anything that elaborates on this, I am not sure whether you mean from the
Pleiadians or else where. Unfortunately most of the UFO information is on
these areas.  What I call the negative aspects of alien intelligence.  There
are lots of hair raising stories about the dracos, lizzies, greys, etc. Lots
of those at the talk that the transcript came from were friends of mine,  we
are into understanding the whole picture.  The lizzies are short for
reptilians. There is a reptilian portion of our brain stem (primal brain). The
reptiles think they own the planet, I think it is because they were here as
dinosaurs for so long.  Anyway it is fairly common knowledge that we are being
prepared as a culture to be introduced to the lizzies. That is part of the
purpose of the series V, the Ninja turtles, a lot of cartoons, movies, etc. It
is said the the lizzies and/or greys have had treaties with governments and
that soon they will make themselves known, openly.  One reason for the govt.
cover up of ufos is that part of the treaty is that the govt. will not expose
them.  There is much ufo literature on the lizzies, dracos, greys.  I guess
the most important point is that they are highly intelligent with no feeling
center. And they thrive on the emotion of fear, it is actually a food for
them.  So being afraid of lizzies is actually feeding them.  They are said to
be behind religion, thus the term  the fear of god , ie religions were created
so humans would resonate in fear to provide food for their god.  Not all
lizzies are bad in fact the Pleiadians mentioned there were three in non
physical form at one of their evenings on the tapes. They were attending to
learn about us humans. They even mention that we have a multidimensional
aspect of ourselves that is lizzie and we will have to come to gripes with as
we go for full enlightenment and integration.  There is lots of folklore about
lizzies like the snake that tempted eve. The Pleiadians do not use the term
good and bad, they instead refer to the white shirts and the black shirts.
They further say that earth was created to be a galactic information exchange
for all life.  So maybe the bar scene in Star Wars is really how our planet
will be in the future.  We thought we had interracial problems, just wait to
see what kind of interspecie problems we are going to have.

Don Showen
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!udel!haven.umd.edu!umd5!cs.jhu.edu!arromdee
From: [e-mail] (Ken Arromdee)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Sep 91 13:20:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Ken Arromdee)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Lines: 41
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15548 alt.paranormal:3182 alt.alien.visitors:2178

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>        I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem
>>for me.
>First neither I nor them are looking for converts.  Converts give their power
>away to their converter. So Brian, do you honestly think there is a solution
>to that problem?

Mathematicians are certainly trying to find one.

>So Brian if you believe there is a solution why
>don t you pretend that the higher intelligences are in your head trying to
>tell you the solution.  Then get very relaxed and listen very carefully and
>hear it or maybe sit down at your terminal and autotype it out.  And if you
>did that you could even say you did it yourself and get your Nobel.

Because there is a difference between a math problem like Fermat's Last Theorem
and the type of information you claim the Pleiadeans give.

If I only believe I am channelling an entity but it's not really there, I can
still talk about lizards, give the names of the nonexistent entities, and
lots of other things.  I can pick at vague thoughts that seem to come from
aliens, and "realize" what they "mean" when in fact everything is coming from
my own mind.  But I _can't_ do this if it's a math problem.  You can't give
a solution to such a problem without actually being able to solve it.  If I
just thought I was channeling aliens and everything really came from my own
head, I'd be able to tell you as much as I wanted about the aliens and their
plans, while the "aliens" couldn't solve math problems.

I think most people, even on alt.paranormal, don't believe in your Pleideans.
But this is important other times: whenever there's some paranormal event where
some effects can be attributed to just people and some can't, it seems only
the former effects happen.  Yeah, it's always _possible_ that the effects you
are unwilling/unable to create just _happen_ to be the same events that you
can't get in a non-paranormal way, but you can't really blame me for being
skeptical....
--
"Halvah?  What kind of fish is that?"  --grocer, to my grandfather, many
    years ago....

Kenneth Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: [e-mail])
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!triton.unm.edu!cfaehl
From: [e-mail] (Chris Faehl CIRT)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <snmc=[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Sep 91 14:27:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15550 alt.alien.visitors:2179

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
>We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we
>had previously dropped on at Los Alamos.
                              ^^^^^^^^^^
Whoa. Halt. Back-up. Erase.
Nuclear Weapons were never dropped upon Los Alamos, although they were
developed there. Further, even at Trinity Site, they were never 'dropped'.
FYI, Los Alamos is perhaps 12-15 miles straight line distance from Santa Fe,
and 45-55 miles straight line from Albuquerque. Now, if *you* were trying to
develop a nuclear device in complete secrecy, would *you* want to light up
the skies like that?

Sorry, this didn't really have anything to do with anything. It's just it's
so easy to get Anal Retentive on Usenet...

CF
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!lanl!cochiti.lanl.gov!jlg
From: [e-mail] (Jim Giles)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Sep 91 17:06:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <snmc=[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Lines: 18
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15563 alt.alien.visitors:2180

In article <snmc=[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Chris Faehl CIRT) writes:
|> [...]
|> Nuclear Weapons were never dropped upon Los Alamos, [...]

Or ... _were_ they?  :-)  (Swelling of Twilight Zone music ... fade to black.)

|> [...]            Further, even at Trinity Site, they were never 'dropped'.
|> FYI, Los Alamos is perhaps 12-15 miles straight line distance from Santa Fe,
|> and 45-55 miles straight line from Albuquerque. Now, if *you* were trying to
|> develop a nuclear device in complete secrecy, would *you* want to light up
|> the skies like that?

Actually, a lot of people saw the Trinity test from Albuquerque.  Both
my mom and my grandfather were awakened by the flash.  The southern
horizon remained illuminated for a few minutes.  The government gave
out some story about an accidental explosion at an ammunition dump.

J. Giles
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com!ichips!intelhf!agora!krowell
From: [e-mail] (Keith Rowell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Request for info
Keywords: Periodicals, conferences
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Sep 91 19:24:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <sxK_r#[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Lines: 139

In article <sxK_r#[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Laurence Doering) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Keith Rowell) writes:
>>[in his bibliography of UFO literature]
>>
>>Condon, Edward U. and Daniel S. Gillmor (ed.).  Final Report of
>>the Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects (Conducted by
>>the University of Colorado Under Contract to the United States
>>Air Force). New York: Bantam Books, 1968. 965pp.  After close,
>>competent study of over 100 UFO sighting reports, 30% couldn't be
>>identified!  Read Condon's prejudiced introduction only after you
>>have looked through the rest of the study.  The National Academy
>>of Sciences rubber-stamped Condon's recommendations that no
>>public funds be devoted to the study of UFOs.
>>
>(Disclaimer:  I don't have a copy of this book with me, so my comments
>are based on my having read it several years ago.)
>
>You're correct that Condon et al. were proceeding from the initial
>assumption that the great majority of UFO reports could be explained
>as ordinary (or unusual) events that were not understood by the observers.
>(I assume this is what you mean when you refer to the "prejudiced"
>introduction.)

No, Condon's "Conclusions and Recommendations" and "Summary of the Study"
don't accurately reflect the contents of the study. The reason for this
is that Condon was grossly prejudiced against giving the UFO a fair and
complete examination. See the book by David Saunders for documentation of
this. A letter to the editor of the pro-UFO International UFO Reporter of the
Center for UFO Studies by Dr. Thornton Page documents further prejudice
against honest treatment of the UFO by Condon. Page is *not* a pro-UFO
scientist or researcher. He said, "I have just read Richard Sigismond's
'Confrontation with Dr. Condon' in the Sept.-Oct. issue of the International
UFO Reporter. I would like to submit the following addendum: two more
confrontations. Like Condon, I started with the conviction that UFOs were
'nonsense' when I served on the CIA Robertson Committee in 1953. But after
that I came to see that a small fraction of UFO reports were very difficult
to explain. At Wesleyan University in Connecticut, I offered a course on UFOs
which attracted many undergraduates, and taught them some astronomy. Then, in
1968, Carl Sagan and I organized the AAAS Symposium on UFOs to be held in Boston
December, 1969. Condon did everything he could to prevent this meeting...
Somewhat later, I was asked to write the article on UFOs for the Encyclopedia
Britannica. After preparing a draft, I phoned Condon to check whether
I had fully covered the data collected by his committee. This was the final
confrontation. He shouted at me that he should write the article; then
there was a bang, and silence...."

>The main point of the book is that UFOs are just that -
>unidentified flying objects, and that most people don't have the experience
>or knowledge to identify things they see in the sky.

This conclusion was well known at the time by UFO "enthusiasts" and the
few scientists like James McDonald who decided to risk their reputations
by vociferously advocating a serious, longterm look at the UFO problem.
The fuss is all about the 5 to 10 percent of very difficult to identify
sightings as Thorton Page (quoted above) realized. Allan Hendry's book,
published ten years later, amply documents the fact that there has always
been a stubborn 5 to 10 percent of UFO reports that could not be identified
*even though there was plenty of high quality data.* Stanton Friedman
constantly tries to make the point that the better the data, the more
the 5 to 10 percent remains unknown. It's very curious the Colorado team
ended up with a whopping 30% unexplained; perhaps it was due to their
lack of experience. A quote from Dr. Peter Sturrock's evaluation may
explain why. From SUIPR Report No. 599 (Stanford University Institute
for Plasma Research) "Evaluation of the Condon Report on the Colorado
UFO Project" October 1974:

From the Abstract: "The 'Condon Report', presenting the findings of the
Colorado Project on a scientific study of unidentified flying objects,
has been the most influential document concerning the scientific status
of this problem. The present evaluation of this Report contains an
overview, an analysis of evidence by categories, and a discussion of
scientific methodology. The overview shows that most case studies were
conducted by junior staff; the senior staff took little part and the
Director took no part in these investigations. The analysis of evidence
by categories shows that there are substantial and significant differences
between the findings of the Project staff and those which the Director
attributes to the Project. Although both the Director and the staff
are cautious in stating conclusions, the staff tend to emphasize challenging
cases and unanswered questions, whereas the Director emphasizes the
difficulty of further study and the probability that there is no
scientific knowledge to be reaped...."

>While it's true that the investigators were unable to explain around 30%
>of the reports, the book clearly states that the cases they were unable
>to assign a cause to were cases where there was little evidence (typically
>one or two people driving at night, reporting that they saw a bright light
>over the road that approached their car, causing it to stall or something.)
>In these cases, there was no independent confirmation, no physical evidence,
>etc. so the investigators concluded that they couldn't say one way or another
>what the witnesses had seen.

I found some mention of this alleged lack of good data as a reason for
the unexplained reports in Condon's Summary of the Study in the section
titled Explaining UFO Reports, but I couldn't find this conclusion
elsewhere. Might you remember where?

>The explained cases are interesting though, and say a great deal about
>the reliability (or lack thereof) of eyewitness testimony.

Let me emphasize once again that UFO "believer" investigator/researchers
fully acknowledge that people are wrong about seeing true UFOs or
flying saucers 90% of the time. (In a true UFO, the person reserves
judgment -- many people do this -- and don't "leap to the conclusion"
that they saw a flying saucer; they just leave it as simply an UNindentified
object. Other folks go ahead and say to themselves, "Well, I must have
seen a flying saucer since it fit my idea (that I got from popular
culture) of what a flying saucer is supposed to look like and behave like.)
Let me reiterate, PEOPLE ARE MISTAKEN 90 PERCENT OF THE TIME ABOUT SEEING
TRUE UFOS. What they actually have seen is an IFO, which is discovered by
close, competent investigation by UFO investigators like me. (A fellow
MUFON investigator here in Oregon recently established beyond a reasonable
doubt that a photographic UFO hoax was perpetrated on an unsuspecting
Dalles, OR, newspaper editor. Incidentally, hoaxes are the explanation for
less than 1% of all UFO reports.)

>Anyway, this book is an interesting look at the skeptical side of things -
>it shows that most people, even experienced pilots, radar operators, and
>astronauts, can easily misinterpret relatively ordinary phenomena.

Don't get carried away with the idea that debunkers like Phil Klass, the
deceased Donald Menzel, and Robert Sheaffer would like you to believe that our
sensory apparatus becomes grossly unreliable when transient phenomena are
being observed. Genuine or true UFOs (see Allan Hendry's study for a
definition of these) are experienced on average for greater than 1
minute NOT less than 20 or 30 seconds. Actually, Hendry's study of 1307
UFO reports showed that the peak of his genuine UFOs was between 3 and
10 minutes duration.

The problem with the study of the UFO evidence is political; it does not
lie with the nature of the evidence itself. That the evidence is especially
difficult to interpret is a great UNtruth that debunkers affiliated with
CSICOP and some academicians (Carl Sagan), mainstream newspaper editors
(at the NY Times), and TV producers (at the major networks) would like you
to believe. Please note that the study I quoted, the letter I quoted, and
Hendry's book are all somewhat difficult to obtain. The opinions, studies,
etc., of the poeple who spend the most time looking at the UFO are routinely
ignored in the mainstream media -- except for Unsolved Mysteries, and
the tabloid TV shows at the moment. Getting the word out is the problem --
not lack of evidence or any special difficulties in interpreting the evidence.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!agate!typhoon.Berkeley.EDU!sfd
From: [e-mail] (Scott Drellishak)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 03:24:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET Administrator)
Organization: ucb
Lines: 88
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15590 alt.paranormal:3184 alt.alien.visitors:2182 talk.religion.newage:6977

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Brian Siano comments
>
>>        Dan, I've read the transcripts you've posted, and I'm perfectly
>>willing to believe that they come from a higher form of intelligence.
>>However, I'm going to require proof. And I have a test that would be
>>satisfactory proof.
>>        I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem
>>for me.
>> ... more stating the problem

Which "problem" was Fermat's Conjecture, a famous unproved theorem in
mathematics, which Don apparently didn't recognize.  Brian isn't asking
you to do his homework here, Don, he's asking you to provide proof
that the Pleiadians know something we don't.

>>        If they can provide a proof, they would be providing us with
>>knowledge currently unknown by man... but knowledge that _can_ be verified
>>empirically. And I'd be surprised if a higher intelligence could lower
>>itself to perform symbolic logic.
>>Solve it, and you've got a convert. (Maybe even a Nobel.)
>
>First neither I nor them are looking for converts.  Converts give their power
>away to their converter.

No, actually a convert is someone who changes his/her mind.  Brian,
being open-minded, was willing to accept the existence of these
Pleiadians if they could provide proof that they were, in fact
inhabiting the body of a human.  Surely such advanced beings did not
reach their pinnacle of knowledge by listening to everyone.  They
admit (I've read the transcripts all the way through -- scary thought,
huh?) that there are evil forces in the world, so obviously some
statements are lies.  Suppose the beings that claim to be our
benefactors are in fact lying?  Suppose the woman who claims to be
channelling them is lying?  Clearly, we must resolve these doubts.
Brian's challenge should be childishly simple for the Pleiadians to
meet ... and yet they don't.  I wonder why?

>            So Brian, do you honestly think there is a solution
>to that problem?  Would you be willing to believe that you come from higher
>intelligence?  Would you let yourself prove it by accessing your higher
>intelligence and solving the problem if you believe there is a solution?  This
>is the whole point of bringing all of this up.  It is basically that we all
>can be channels of higher intelligence in whatever area we wish (intend) to. I
>feel that there are lots of individuals on this net that are closing their
>connection to higher intelligence by limiting beliefs they hold about
>themselves and reality.  What if you proved that you were connected to
>infinite intelligence, first cause, prime creator and you could use that in
>whatever way you wanted?  So Brian if you believe there is a solution why
>don t you pretend that the higher intelligences are in your head trying to
>tell you the solution.  Then get very relaxed and listen very carefully and
>hear it or maybe sit down at your terminal and autotype it out.  And if you
>did that you could even say you did it yourself and get your Nobel.  The
>higher intelligences give away information freely.

I just relaxed and tried to listen to the "higher" intelligences, but
I heard nothing.  What does this mean, Don?  Did I not listen
carefully enough?

Clearly, I'm not skilled in this matter.  Don, would you do all of us
who are interested in furthering humanity's knowledge and improving
out lives try it for us?  Since you are more experienced in listening
to voices in your head, I assume that you can produce the proof that
Brian requested.  Thank you.

>                        One other pointer, Tesla
>used to hyperventilate to improve his powers of visualization. He would
>design, build, and run a motor for a period of time, dismantel it and see
>where the parts were worn, all in his head. He actually acknowledged the
>assistance he was getting from higher intelligence.
>
>Don Showen

[FLAMES]

When I'm reading the Pleiadian Transcripts, or Don's postings, I like
to do this, and you can do it with me.  Clench your teeth (not too
tightly) and open your mouth.  Between your thumb and forefinger
(pinching horizontally), grab the flesh of your cheek about halfway
between the corner of your mouth and the muscle which closes your jaw.
Now, with a frequecy of about 5 Hertz, pull the flesh of your cheek
away from your teeth, and push it back.  This is the sound of a
bonehead newage-rhymes-with-sewage dupe engaging in intellectual
masturbation.  Thank you for your attention.

Flames by email, please.

Scott Drellishak, SFOP
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ulowell!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!drwho
From: [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 05:01:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 29
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15598 alt.paranormal:3185 alt.alien.visitors:2183 talk.religion.newage:6978

I wasn't going to touch this topic with a ten foot pole, but...

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Steve - Graziano comments and asks
>
>>2.  On a more curious level, the transcripts talk about dracos, lizzies, etc.
>>Is there anything that elaborates on this?
>
>There is a reptilian portion of our brain stem (primal brain).

NNNNnnnnnooooo.....  I thought we were mammals.  Or does being a "reptile"
imply something besides being cold-blooded and laying eggs?

>Anyway it is fairly common knowledge that we are being
>prepared as a culture to be introduced to the lizzies.
First I've heard of it.

>That is part of the
>purpose of the series V, the Ninja turtles, a lot of cartoons, movies, etc.

The purpose of Ninja Turtles is that two starving artists sat around doodling
one night, and ended up with a parody of "grim-n-gritty" comic books, with an
intentionally stupid-sounding title.  The purpose of V was to make money.

--E.V.L. ([e-mail])        # "At last!  The Pen of the Gods is mine!
Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely    # I have the power of the printed word, the
devastatingly true, except the bits # most powerful force in the Universe,
that are lies."  --Douglas Adams    # in my grasp!  NOTHING CAN STOP ME NOW!!!
                                    # Uh, anybody got a piece of paper?"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Who was exposed?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 01:53:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 32
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2184 sci.skeptic:15599

[e-mail] (Leonard Spani) writes:

>
> I have read on the net about *Ed Walters* being exposed as a (probable)
> fraud because someone found models of Flying Saucers just like the ones
> he photographed in the attic of the house he recently moved out of.
>
> I have also read on the net that *Billy Meier* has been exposed as a
> (probable) fraud because someone found models of Flying Saucers just like
> the ones he photographed in the attic of the house he recently moved out of.
>
> I would appreciate it if someone could tell me if either one (or both) of
> these exposures is true. It seems too much of a coincidence that the same
> thing could happen to both of them, but it does seem likely that the same
> exposure could accidentally be applied to the wrong UFO photographer(s).
>
> I just want to get my facts straight. Any evidence and additional information
> would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
> Leonard.

        It happened to Ed Walters.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
[e-mail]                     "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 02:06:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 45
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15600 alt.paranormal:3186 alt.alien.visitors:2185 talk.religion.newage:6979

[e-mail] writes:
> First neither I nor them are looking for converts.  Converts give their
power
> away to their converter. So Brian, do you honestly think there is a
solution
> to that problem?  Would you be willing to believe that you come from higher
> intelligence?  Would you let yourself prove it by accessing your higher
> intelligence and solving the problem if you believe there is a solution?
Thi
> is the whole point of bringing all of this up.  It is basically that we all

blah, blah blah, blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah

> So Brian if you believe there is a solution why
> don t you pretend that the higher intelligences are in your head trying to
> tell you the solution.  Then get very relaxed and listen very carefully and
> hear it or maybe sit down at your terminal and autotype it out.  And if you
> did that you could even say you did it yourself and get your Nobel.  The
> higher intelligences give away information freely.

Don, you're avoiding my question.

        First of all, you posted that Pleiaidian stuff for the express
purpose of cinvincingsome of us that these 'higher intelligences' are out
there, and your friend is in contact with them. Regardless of your reply,
yes, 'converts' are more or less what you want. After all, you wouldn't have
posted the material.
        All I want is proof. Why should I expend my time and energy before I
get a good reason to do so? Your friend claimed to be in contact with higher
intelligences-- before I make _any_ commitments, I'd like to see some proof
that your friend is genuine. (Either he's genuine, or deranged.)
        The problem may or may not be solvable. All I want is either a
solution, or a lagically supported reason why it's not solvable. Until I get
that, the 'Plieaidian transcripts' are about as useful as line noise.

        So, whaddya say? Why don't you do the autotyping and convince me, if
it's so simple? One good logical proof. (And saying "It's notsolable because
our logic/philosophy/science/minds are too limited" is a cop-out.
So there.)

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
[e-mail]                     "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!ucbvax!mtxinu!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO Events Calendar
Summary: UFO Events Calendar
Keywords: UFO Events Calendar
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Sep 91 02:12:05 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 93
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra



 *************************************************************************
 * The following are some upcoming events that will focus on UFOs.  I    *
 * share this with you in the hopes that the more people that know the   *
 * truth, that the truth will be known by more people.  I am in no       *
 * way involved with any of these events and share this for information  *
 * purposes only.  If you know of other UFO-type events, I welcome email *
 * in this regards.         Enjoy.                                       *
 *************************************************************************

Sept. 28 UFORUM - West L. A. Every last Saturday of the month
    Speakers on all aspects of UFOs
    Felicia Mahood Center, 11338 Santa Monica Blvd.
    West Los Angeles, CA
    info: A.R.C. 11012 Ventura Blvd., #134, Studio City, CA 91604
    213 874-8185

Sept 29 NH MUFON UFO Conference
    Yokens Convention Center, Portsmouth, New Hampshire

Oct. 3-6 International UFO Congress
    European UFO Network, Belgium

Oct. 12-13 The UFO Experience
    Holiday Inn, North Haven, Conn.

Oct 12-13 Fourth Symposium of Ufology and Exobiology
    Sao Palo, Brazil

Oct 19  Show-Me UFO Conference III
    Holiday Inn Airport-West
    Bridgeton, Missouri  (near St. Louis Airport)

Oct 26 UFORUM - West L. A. Every last Saturday of the month
    Speakers on all aspects of UFOs
    Felicia Mahood Center, 11338 Santa Monica Blvd.
    West Los Angeles, CA
    info: A.R.C. 11012 Ventura Blvd., #134, Studio City, CA 91604
    213 874-8185

Nov 15 - 18 Fri - Mon Whole Life Expo
        Los Angeles Airport Hilton Convention Center
        5711 W. Century Blvd.   213 369-7090 POB 1317 Venice, CA 90291
          Marina Popovich, Brad Steiger among others will be speaking.

Nov sometime CUFOS
    Santa Barbara Center for Humanistic Studies
    Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1611

Dec 8 - 13 Vegas International UFO Congress (This follows closely on the heels
        of the Tucson Conference, both put on by Wendelle Stevens)
    UFO's and Official Authorities
    Riviera Hotel, Las Vegas, NV
    Office: 4266 Broadway, Oakland CA 510 428-0202 FAX [phone]
    Tickets $290.00 (if obtained in advance)
        List of speakers:
      J.J Benitez, Spain, Spanish Government files
      Joel Mesnard, France, UFO Abductions
      Mario Luis Bracamonte, Argentina, Heads C.O.R. Group
      Zetha Rodriguez, Mexico, Prof. H. Abduction
      Prof. Darush Bagheri, Iran, UFOs in East Mythology
      Prof. Sun Shi-Li, Rep. of China, China UFO Update
      Bob Ewing, Rep. of S. Africa, Air Traffic and UFOs
      Capt. Rui Avila Castel, Portugal, UFOs and Airliners
      Capt. Guy Kirkwood, USA, UFO Intercepts
      Bob Oeschler, USA, NASA and UFOs
      Sgt. Clifford Stone, U.S. Army, Contactee Treatment
      Dr. Richard Haines, UAS, Pilot Reports on UFOs
      Jorge Martin, Puerto Rico, UFO Aircraft Capture
      Alejandro Agostinelli, Argentina, UFO Photographs
      Marco Petit de Castro, Brazil, UFO Photographs
      Guido Moosbrugger, Austria, Inside the Meier Case
      Michael Hessmann, Germany, Latest German UFOs
      Vladimir Terziski, Bulgaria, UFO Technology
      Lembit Rannu, Estonia, UFO Abductions
      Ulimas Lipende, Finland, UFO Abductions
      Hakkan Blomqvist, Sweden, THe Helge Case
      Tales Schonia, Georgia USSR, Tbilisi Landings
      Col. R. O. Dean, USA, SHAPE UFO Commission

Sept 1992 (tentative)  Belgian International UFO Conference
    (Put on by Wendelle Stevens.  This will be his 3rd)

1993 sometime (probably) New York International UFO Conference
    (Put on by Wendelle Stevens.  This will be his 4th)

cc`ed to Paranet
-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!lynx!unmvax!bbx!yenta!karenm
From: [e-mail] (Karen Millar)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 16:45:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: yenta unix pc, rio rancho, nm
Lines: 37
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15612 alt.paranormal:3192 alt.alien.visitors:2187

[e-mail] (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>>        I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem
>>>for me.
>>First neither I nor them are looking for converts.  Converts give their power
>>away to their converter. So Brian, do you honestly think there is a solution
>>to that problem?

>>So Brian if you believe there is a solution why
>>don t you pretend that the higher intelligences are in your head trying to
>>tell you the solution.  Then get very relaxed and listen very carefully and
>>hear it or maybe sit down at your terminal and autotype it out.  And if you
>>did that you could even say you did it yourself and get your Nobel.

>Because there is a difference between a math problem like Fermat's Last Theorem
>and the type of information you claim the Pleiadeans give.

    In my understanding, you have missed the point entirely, Brian.
You *are* yourself hooked up to something that may be referred to as
higher power, or collective unconscious, or god, (not necessarily aliens).
All you have to do is get in tune with that hp by forgetting about your
self-imposed limitations, and solve that problem of yours. It's not an
easy task, but it is do-able... the information you desire is free for the
taking, if you can but unlock your consciousnes, as Einstein and many
many others have done. It is getting in tune with how the universe works,
and we *are* capable of doing this. The main issue that the Pleiadians
are trying to get across our thick sculls is that

            IT IS TIME TO WAKE UP!


--
    Love is the answer...
    Communication Facilities Designer
    Freelance in the Land of Enchantment              Albuquerque, NM
    [e-mail]                             [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!uwm.edu!convex.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 23:23:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 27
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15616 alt.paranormal:3194 alt.alien.visitors:2188

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Karen Millar) writes:

>    In my understanding, you have missed the point entirely, Brian.
>You *are* yourself hooked up to something that may be referred to as
>higher power, or collective unconscious, or god, (not necessarily aliens).
>All you have to do is get in tune with that hp by forgetting about your
>self-imposed limitations, and solve that problem of yours. It's not an

Hmm, you seem to have missed the point as well.  What Brian is
interested in is also what mathmaticians have been interested in for
the past 350+ years.  They haven't found the general proof to Fermat's
Last Theorem, it seems the Pleiadeans haven't either.  While
mathmaticians have found many other proofs, the Pleiadeans haven't
found much of anything, except how to get some humans to think they
exist on really flimsy evidence.

Any study of general beliefs and religion of humans will reveal that
humans will beleive just about anything.  The newage movement is merely
the contemporary example.

So, you imply that you are "in tune with that hp" (personally I have a
Psion not a Hewlett-Packard).  Have you come up with anything that a
few hundred years of mathmatics (or any other discipline) hasn't?

If not, has anyone else?  The Pleiadeans should put up or shut up.
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Alien Evidence, Beam Wounds, etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Sep 91 02:54:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 43

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>>..... except for the fact that there are cases in which the UFOs
>> leave evidence of their existence -- including, as Vallee found, beam
>> wounds.
>
>BEAM WOUNDS ?

(We're talking about Vallee's "Confrontations", for anyone who came in
late.)

Read the book if you can find a copy.  It's out in paperback now, and I
think it only came out last year in hardback.

What Vallee found is that in certain remote areas of Brazil, there are
frequent sightings of small box-like UFOs (they've been described as
looking like iceboxes or refrigerators, and they even hum.)  They fly
around at night with a light on the bottom and a light on one end (or side,
I can't remember which), shining the bottom light on the ground.  Stories
about encounters with them vary slightly, but you've got to remember that
one of Vallee's points against them (UFOs in general) being simple,
rational, extraterrestrial spacecraft is that most of them act
capriciously.  It's unclear whether they attack people intentionally (if
they do, they do it very inefficiently), but they may chase you if they
find you.  If you get caught in the beam, you immediately become very sick,
and develop sore, reddened patches of skin later. Some people have died,
but possibly from conditions (such as heart trouble) aggravated by the
attack.

The immediate effects of the beam are suggestive (to those who know about
such things) of high-power pulses of microwaves.

The Brazilian government once sent a team to study the phenomenon but not
get involved in treating the victims.  Pictures of the objects were taken
and published in Brazilian newspapers, but the negatives have all been
bought by an unidentified American company and so are not available for
study.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: not in Kansas anymore!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Sep 91 02:58:01 GMT
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 10

The four people who "disappeared" from Russell, Kansas recently are alive
and well and on their way to Israel with Scott Corder, who apparently made
a name for himself a few years ago by getting his medical license revoked
for believing in a connection between UFOs and biblical prophecy.

--
  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Note to Don Allen on the Deardorff book....
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Sep 91 16:30:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 15

I do not frequently read this newsgroup, but a friend sent me
something by you (Don Allen, I think)--

Could you please try emailing me privately?  I am not sure my
machine can get to yours...I am interested in what Deardorff
has to say and also the other book that Wild Flower Press puts
out.

I feel we have *not* been told the truth about a lot of things
in organized religions, and it is up to our own personal quests
and pursuits to sift off the false from the true.

So if you are out there, Don Allen, will you email me?

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!tigger!schiffd
From: [e-mail] (David M. Schiff)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: More on Crop Circles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Sep 91 19:19:17 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Planet)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder, Department of Computer Science
Lines: 48
Originator: schiffd@tigger
Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.cs.colorado.edu

I recently attended a presentation on the crop circle phenomenon put on
by two locals who became interested and conducted their own research by
travelling to England, seeing the circles themselves and talking to
researchers there.  They also obtained many amazing photographs which
formed the core of the presentaion.
Among the things they said:

1) Concerning Doug and Dave -- The original story only claimed they had
   faked about 200 circles, not all of them. The news service that supplied
   the story is a fake and the town given is supposedly used by
   MI5 to plant disinformation stories. There was also supposedly a
   meeting of the National Security Council on the circles. Nobody knows
   what went on at the meeting.
   Yeah, I know, there's a conspiracy behind every rock - I'm just reporting:-)

2a) There's a loss of phototropism in the plants inside a real circle.
    Actually she (Kit) said last year the plants would stay bent over and
    continue to grow whereas this year the original stem would stay
    bent but a new shoot would grow skyward.  Nevertheless it seems
    it should be a simple matter to separate the fakes from the "real"
    circles by merely observing them over some time interval to see
    if the stems try to right themselves or not. She said this
    was in fact observed.

2b) The seed heads of the plants inside the circles don't contain
    any seeds!!

3) Some sort of crystallographic analysis was done on cross-sections of
    plants taken from both inside & outside a circle.  They displayed slides
    which showed very marked differences.  exactly what was done or how, or
    how many samples were examined, etc. was not mentioned and I don't think
    they knew.
    Interestingly, she said that while there were many physical scientists
    over there weren't any biologists involved. It would seem to me that
    biological analysis of the plants could be very important.

4) This past summer, Japanese researchers cordoned off a field with
   burglar detection equipment over night.  The next morning when the
   fog lifted there was a "circle" in the field. Infrared detectors
   didn't detect any bodies in the field.

5) They had a slide of one pictogram which was supposedly verified as
   being a perfect Mandelbrot set. I don't know anything about Mandelbrot
   sets but one gentleman in the audience did and was very impressed.

I must say I take all this with a very large grain of salt, but nevertheless
found the photographic evidence to be quite impressive. If hoaxers are
doing it I take my hat off to them.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!unixhub!ditka!mv!summa4!admin
From: [e-mail] (Scott Babb)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Sep 91 20:46:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Summa Four Inc.
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15646 alt.paranormal:3196 alt.alien.visitors:2193 talk.religion.newage:6986

I hate to be a skeptic ;-), but has anyone mentioned that the Pleiadians claim
to be from a star system whose age is measured in thousands of years (well,
tens of thousands, maybe) while we lesser-advanced beings have taken millions
of years to evolve to our current level?  Perhaps living on plasma planets
is more conducive to rapid intellectual evolution?

--
  These are solely the opinions of:  Scott L. Babb - [e-mail]
              "We didn't inherit the Earth from our parents,
                   we are borrowing it from our children."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!wet!charlie
From: [e-mail] (Charlie Galvin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Summary: Maybe they're NOT good at hiding
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Sep 91 05:25:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Wetware Diversions, San Francisco
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> David O Hunt writes:

>And if they don't want to make contact, they shouldn't be seen in the first
>place.  Imagine if we wanted to spy on a tribe of primitives in a jungle.
>With our technological advantages they'd have no WAY of knowing we were
>watching if we did it right.

I rather think not.  Primitive peoples generally discover explorers before
explorers discover them.  They're experinced in moving quietly, they know
the terrain, etc. etc.  I suspect it is overconfident to suppose that
technology would in all cases prevent an observer from being seen or
eliminate all telltale signs (unless you've got a cloaking device up your
sleeve or something).  And since an observer wouldn't necessarily know
what we might consider as "something out of place", they would be almost
certain to slip up SOMEwhere.

Assuming, arguendo, that we are/have been visited by people from somewhere
else, I think it would be highly likely that there would be SOME evidence of
such a visit, despite all efforts to leave none.  Something would
be overlooked, and some local would spot it.


Charles E. ("Cxarli") GALVIN, Jr.    | H: [phone] [UTC 1400-0600]
Vicdelegito k Fakdelegito (Junularo) |         ucsfcca!wet!charlie
Universala Esperanto-Asocio          |
San-francisco, Kalifornio, Usono     | "Mi ne parolas la anglan!"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: Washington State UFO Sightings reports
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 19:04:52 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 663
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2195 alt.conspiracy:7682 sci.skeptic:15651






----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------



Date: 08-17-91  06:57
From: Larry Langner

    About 1952 or 53 I saw a UFO while at my Grandfather's house om  Vashon
Island(near Tacoma) Washington)  it was just a spot of yellow  light to the
naked eye, but when seen through binoculars it was a  tear-drop shaped gold
colored object which seemed to have a smaller object d dangling from it.  It
was probably a mile or 2 away & 2 or 3000 ft. in the a It was stationary &
visable for over an hour(it left when nobody was  looking)  & was observed by
about 8 members of my family.
    My grandfather said at the time tha about 2 years before he had seen  a
formation of about 10 disks fly over his house & a couple of days  later a
police boat was bombarded with molton metal from a flying  saucer.  This was
suposed to be in all of the local papers & on the  radio(before TV) at the
time.  Does anyone here remember this case?  I'd like to hear the details.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Report #: 5
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 10-21-1985
  Subject: PORT ORCHARD, WA

CASE TYPE:  CE I - NL
     DATE:  16 OCTOBER 1985
     TIME:  0143 HOURS
     CFN#:  0131
   SOURCE:  NAT'T UFO REPORTING CENTER
---------------------------------------
A WITNESS REPORTED SIGHTING TWO FAST MOVING LIGHTS IN THE SKY. THE WITNESS
SAID THAT THE LIGHTS APPEARED TO BE SHOOTING BEAMS OF LIGHT FROM THEM.
THE WITNESS SAID THE LIGHTS SHOOTING FROM THE LIGHTS WERE YELLOW AND RED
IN COLOR. THE WITNESS SAID ALSO THAT THE LIGHTS WERE MOVING AT A VERY - FAST
RATE OF SPEED.  HE ALSO SAID THE LIGHTS WERE ON A COURSE GOING SOUTH TO NORTH.
THE DURATION OF THIS SIGHTING WAS ABOUT 30 SECONDS.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Report #: 196
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 12-01-1986
  Subject: BURIEN, WA

CASE TYPE:  LRS - NL
     DATE:  30 NOVEMBER 1986
     TIME:  0155 HOURS
     CFN#:  0318
 DURATION:  30 - 45: SECONDS
WITNESSES:  TWO
   SOURCE:  CUFON - UFO INFORMATION SERVICE
-------------------------------------------

John Williams of KIRO television called CUFON - UFO Information Service with a
report that he had received from a witness near Burien, WA.  The witness
reported seeing some kind of object in the southern sky coming at him with
smoke coming out the back of it and appeared to break apart.  There was one
light and it then broke off in like 4-5 different off shoots with smoke on
each one.  The witness and his mom with several others said it appeared to be
a parachute that went right over their heads, but it was moving very very
quickly.  The metal object with a parachute on it went over their heads and
the other off shoot pieces went in different directions.  What appeared to
be a parachute the witness did not think was as it went over his head very
very fast.  John Williams also stated that after receiving the report he
called the Sea-Tac duty officer at FAA and he said that it could have been in
cloud lightning because there were no military aircraft in the area at that
time.

CUFON - UFO Information Service then called the witness to get his direct
report.  The witness stated that he was over at his parents when he saw a
bright light coming out of the south.  He thought it was one of the lights
from a jet coming into the airport at first as they are right by the airport,
but realized it couldn't be because the Sea-Tac Burien airport would be
farther to the east.  Then his mom came out and he pointed it out and her
description of it was the best, she described it as a sparkler where you are
looking at the center of it with smoke coming off it.  As the bright light
started dimming you could still see the smoke.  It seemed to break up and he
lost track of all the other pieces save one.  It looked as if they had flown
off it.  The one big piece came sailing out and it looked like a parachute
with something on the end of it heading from south to north slightly northeast
over their heads at what seemed like an incredible velocity.  It looked, shape
wise, like a parachute.  The fact that it seemed to be going so fast made him
think it had to be some kind of space craft or something.  He never saw it
descend, it just shot across the sky.  Observation was 30-45 seconds.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Report #: 200
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 12-10-1986
  Subject: GRANDVIEW, WA

CASE TYPE:  LRS - NL
     DATE:  4 & 7 SEPTEMBER 1986
     TIME:  0400, 2230 HOURS
     CFN#:  0322
 DURATION:  UNKNOWN
WITNESSES:  MANY
   SOURCE:  HERALD, GRANDVIEW, WA
---------------------------------

  Grandview residents were among several people who reported seeing
unidentified flying objects on Thursday morning and Sunday evening.

  On Thursday, a Wapato policeman was the first to spot a UFO, about 4 a.m.
The object travelled slowly, and was last seen near Prosser about 6 a.m.  It
was described as large and changed colors.  Although small in the night sky,
it was larger than a star or planet.

  An object brighter than a planet was spotted over the Rattlesnake Hills,
north of Grandview, on Sunday evening about 10:30 p.m.  It changed colors
rapidly.  A witness described it as alternating red and green, and a ray of
light seemed to be coming out the bottom.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Report #: 212
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 01-24-1987
  Subject: GIGHARBOR, WA

CASE TYPE:   CE I
     DATE:   23 JANUARY 1987
     TIME:   21:30 HOURS
     CFN#:   0334
 DURATION:   3:MINUTES
WITNESSES:   THREE
   SOURCE:   UFO INFORMATION SERVICE
----------------------------------------
At 9:45 P.M.  the UFO Information Service in Seattle Washington received a
report of a UFO sighting that took place at Gighorbor, which is in the State
of Wash.

Three Witnesses reported observing a UFO Unidentified Flying Object. They
Stated that they first noticed the object hovering over some houses.

The witnesses said the ufo or object was oval shaped and said the color of the
object was blue. They stated when the ufo let the area it went straight up and
out of sight from them. They also stated that there was "no sequel to any
movement that the object made". This could be the same object that was
reported in Arnold, city, PA case number CFN#:0333 because the object in both
cases was oval shaped and in both cases the object was blue. Interesting also
is the duration in both cases of 3 minutes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOG # 890912 - Event 12/15/88 near Shelton, Washington.  Investigator James
Clarkson.  From their secluded lakeside home, a family was attracted outside
by a brilliant approaching light illuminating the trees below.  They observed
three black boomerangs, the first estimated variously from 75 feet at the
base to "a football field", move very slowly overhead at treetop level.  The
latter two were identical in shape but much smaller.  The wife attempted a
flash photo, but neither prints nor negatives were returned.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


               Mutual UFO Network Investigative Sighting Report
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                      PRELIMINARY UFO REPORT

     DATE:      March 5, 1988

     TIME:      Between 9:20 and 9:25 P.M.

     LOCATION:  West Seattle, Washington

     DURATION:  1-3 minutes

     SOURCE OF SIGHTING:     UFO Reporting Center 206-722-3000

     INVESTIGATOR:           Donald A. Johnson, Ph.D., MUFON

          While crossing the street on foot from a corner
     convenience store a man and a woman observed a huge, metallic
     spherical-shaped object surrounded by a corona of bright blue
     light over the West Seattle golf course.  They described the
     object as "as wide as a football field is long" (300 feet).  They
     heard a humming sound, and estimated the altitude to be only 300
     yards above the golf course.

          They reported being nearly knocked down by a car because
     they were standing there in the middle of the street "kind of
     mesmerized" by the sight of such a strange object so close to the
     ground in a populated area.  The driver of the car who stopped
     got out and also watched the object.  Together they watched the
     object for a period of approximately 30-40 seconds.  It moved
     very quickly right, then left--in a zig-zag fashion as it gained
     altitude--and then departed very quickly into the upper atmosphere.

          The woman is in her thirties and works as a transit operator
     for the regional transit system.  The man, her boyfriend, is in
     his forties.  After the sighting they discussed what they had
     seen with the other witness.  The other witness suggested that
     they not report it to anyone and drove off without giving his
     name.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10-23-90  23:56
From: Phil Barnett
To:   all
Subj: sighting?

 EID:3e9c 1557bf10
Hi, I'm new to this echo and thought you might be interested in something I
saw while living in Seattle around 1977.
I was leaving my night shift at a bar (bartending) and was not driving. It
was about 1am. The driver of the car commented that is sure is bright, must
be a full moon. I looked around, and it was too bright. I leaned out the
window, and looked up. I saw a large group of lights, ducked back in and
said. "Dary, pull off onto a side street, now!". I think i scared him, 'cause
he pulled a screecher. We were at the top of the hill, uphill from the
university district, on 45th street. We both got out, and started watching
this thing. It looked close, but made absolutely no sound. It was a totally
calm night. The kind that would have transmitted sound very well. The lights
were pulsating, in a rotating blinking pattern. We both decided it could only
be a blimp, to hover silently like that.
We watched it for about ten minutes as it headed east across the university
district. It was about 2.5 miles away at around 2000 ft. by our estimation,
when suddenly, it shot over the mountain range about 25-30 miles east and
dissappeared in less that a blink. We never could explain what it was, but is
was sure no blimp! There were no reports of anything in the paper the next
day, or any day after that, although a few people leaving the bar that night
said they saw the bright lights, no one saw it shoot off. We couldn't take
our eyes off of it.
Any ideas?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                   MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO Network
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                         Investigative Sighting Report
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            UNUSUAL REPORT OF A UFO AND A GREEN-FACED ENTITY
              SEEN NEAR AN OLD U.S.A.F. NIKE MISSLE BASE

     DATE:      June 24, 1988

     TIME:      Sometime between 12:30 and 2:00 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time

     LOCATION:  Redmond, Washington

     DURATION:  Estimates vary, around 7 minutes for sighting of UFO;
                about 45 minutes total duration including sighting of
                face, possibly longer

     SOURCE OF SIGHTING:     UFO Information Service (Goudie)

     INVESTIGATORS:          Donald A. Johnson, Ph.D., MUFON
                             Don Olson, MUFON
                             Rita Andreeva, MUFON

     Four 11-year-old girls who had attended a private Christian
elementary school together were having a slumber party reunion at the
home of one of the girls on Education Hill in Redmond, Washington.  At
a few minutes after either 12:30 AM or 1:30 AM they were looking out
the window to see if they could find the girl's dog.  They were
downstairs in the TV room, while the parents and brother and sister of
the host were asleep upstairs.  They witnessed a craft-like UFO,
described as either a domed-disc or two plates put together edge-to-
edge, hovering in the night sky.  It had white and red lights and
possibly faint green lights around the rim of the object.  Of the two
girls interviewed, both thought right away that it was a UFO (i.e.
"spacecraft"), and not an aircraft because it was similar to a picture
they had once seen in a book.

     The UFO was hovering at about 30 degrees above the horizon when
first sighted.  It was described as smaller than a house in size,
possibly 25 feet in diameter.  The UFO moved to the right horizontally
about 10 degrees, reversed direction abruptly and moved back in a
straight line to the left 10 degrees, moved back to the right 5
degrees to a center position, and then moved really fast straight
down.  It moved down behind some tall evergreen trees and the girls
thought that it probably came down in a clearing in Nike Park, about
3-4 blocks from the girl's home where they were staying.  The UFO was
reported to be visible through the window of the TV room for a total
of between 2 and 7 minutes.

     Some time later, within 15 minutes to a half an hour, two of the
girls witnessed a frightening face.  The accounts of how the face
appeared to them varies.  In one account the girls thought they saw
something like a shadow or a figure at the top of the stairs leading
up to the kitchen.  The became scared and hid in their sleeping bags;
they zipped them over their heads and lay next to each other.  They
conversed through the bags and agreed to look at the same time, so
that it would not be too scary.  As they pulled the bags down from
over their heads they saw a dark, mossy green face only about arm's
length away.  Really frightened, one of the girls pulled the sleeping
bag over her head, and when she looked out again in a few minutes, the
being was gone.  The other girl's account said they were lying on
their backs trying to get to sleep and staring up at the ceiling when
all of a sudden they both saw this green face.  She watched it for
about 45 seconds, "and then it just, went away".  Asked if it just
vanished like it was a slide from a projector or something, she said,
no, it wasn't like that.  It was just like a real face, but it was
green in color and it was looking at them.  The second girl appears to
be unclear about how the face appeared because she also reports she
covered her head with the sleeping bag at one point but can't remember
when.

     The face was described as greenish in hue, with red, glowing
eyes.  Interviewed separately, both of the girls said there was
something like a dent in one of the cheeks.  One girl said it looked
like the "face on Mars" photograph she saw in the newspaper about a
week later, while the other girl said it had pointy ears and bushy
eyebrows.  When asked a direct question later about the pointed ears,
the second girl said she didn't remember any ears.  If the face had
indeed been attached to a body, one girl figures that the being must
have been about 3 1/2 to 4 feet tall.

     About 10 to 15 minutes later the second girl, who lived there,
saw a clump of rainbow colored lights slowly revolving in her kitchen
and flashing light all over the ceiling and refrigerator.  The first
girl made a vague reference to lights in the kitchen but apparently
did not see the rainbow-colored clump of lights hovering in the
kitchen (the kitchen is partially visible from the TV room, up half a
flight of stairs).

     The girls became noisy discussing what they had seen woke the
mother.  The mother came down and ordered them to go to sleep.
Apparently nothing further happened that night.

     Of the other two girls, they are certain that one saw what they
saw but would not consent to be interviewed by UFO investigators.
They are unsure what the fourth girl saw.  The second girl, the one at
whose home the events occurred, reported that she had had a
precognitive experience during that previous day, recalling during a
croquet match that she had dreamed those exact events some weeks
before.  She also reports that since the UFO incident she is no longer
subject to nose bleeds, which she reports have occurred to her
chronically throughout her life and also occur with her father.  She
also said that a soccer injury to her knee no longer gave her any pain
after the encounter, and she attributes the healing to the event.

     The neighborhood in which her home is located borders an old Air
Force Nike Missle base.  Part of the property is now a Washington
State National Guard facility, part of it is deserted and belongs to
the local school district, and part of it has been converted to a
park.  We talked to a staff sargent on the National Guard base who
reported that he was sleeping at the base on the night in question and
recalls nothing unusual.  He reported that light aircraft tend to use
the base as a landmark and so overflights are frequent, and, during
the daytime hours, hot air balloons frequently come over the base from
the Sammamish River valley to land in some clearings to the east.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


                      PRELIMINARY UFO REPORT

     DATE:      March 5, 1988

     TIME:      Between 9:20 and 9:25 P.M.

     LOCATION:  West Seattle, Washington

     DURATION:  1-3 minutes

     SOURCE OF SIGHTING:     UFO Reporting Center 206-722-3000

     INVESTIGATOR:           Donald A. Johnson, Ph.D., MUFON

          While crossing the street on foot from a corner
     convenience store a man and a woman observed a huge, metallic
     spherical-shaped object surrounded by a corona of bright blue
     light over the West Seattle golf course.  They described the
     object as "as wide as a football field is long" (300 feet).  They
     heard a humming sound, and estimated the altitude to be only 300
     yards above the golf course.

          They reported being nearly knocked down by a car because
     they were standing there in the middle of the street "kind of
     mesmerized" by the sight of such a strange object so close to the
     ground in a populated area.  The driver of the car who stopped
     got out and also watched the object.  Together they watched the
     object for a period of approximately 30-40 seconds.  It moved
     very quickly right, then left--in a zig-zag fashion as it gained
     altitude--and then departed very quickly into the upper atmosphere.

          The woman is in her thirties and works as a transit operator
     for the regional transit system.  The man, her boyfriend, is in
     his forties.  After the sighting they discussed what they had
     seen with the other witness.  The other witness suggested that
     they not report it to anyone and drove off without giving his
     name.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                      West Seattle, Washington UFO Report
                            Saturday, March 5, 1988

      PART I:     Narrative of principal witness, male, age 43
         Transcribed from notes by Dr. Donald Johnson, March 13, 1988

           At approximately 9:30 p.m. I left the ARCO convenience
      store at the southwest corner of Fauntleroy and SW Alaska St.
      and noticed the object while facing east.  It was "sitting"
      [hovering] over towards the golf course and club house.  I live
      on Fauntleroy and Dawson, about 4 blocks south of Fauntleroy and
      Alaska.  I looked at it, then looked away then back for about 3
      or 4 seconds.  It wasn't sitting on the ground, but if it had it
      would have crushed the clubhouse, because it would have been
      right over it.  [Later at the clubhouse he revised this comment
      to say that it was probably not over the clubhouse but in a
      clearing between the highway and the golf course to the right of
      the clubhouse--an area some 500 yards long and 100 yards wide.
      It is important to note that if the UFO had been near the ground
      in this area it would have been hidden from view to the south by
      trees, to the north by the West Seattle high school stadium, and
      from 35th S.W. by a hill.]  It was huge--I don't know what a
      "mothership" is (we get our terminology from TV), but it was
      like a mothership, it was big.

           [Later at the intersection he described the size of the
      object as stretching from a rotating motel sign on the left to a
      tall evergreen tree on the right, a distance that would be
      covered by 3 inches of a ruler held at arm's length.  His
      estimate on the report form that the apparent size of the object
      was as large as a 12" ruler held at arm's length was therefore
      an exaggeration.]

           I shouted back and called [his girlfriend's] attention to it.
      It moved to the left, then to the right, then it moved away and up
      until it was out of sight.

           While we were watching it we stood in the middle of the
      intersection and nearly got run over by two or three cars.  One
      guy who almost hit me honked and said, "are you nuts?", and I
      said, "no man, look at that".  He stopped and said "is someone
      hurt" and then he saw the object.  He saw it while it was in
      motion.  We watched it until the damn thing disappeared.  The
      other witness--a guy 25 to 30 years old, heavy build with a
      blond mustache, 5'9 to 5'11, well dressed in sweater and
      slacks--said, "somebody's playing a joke, right?", and I said,
      "No, I've been watching it for about 30 seconds."

           I didn't hear anything like a hum or a buzz like you would
      get from an airplane.  There was nothing.  [When questioned
      about his note on the sketch made earlier that said "humming
      sound":]  I heard a humming sound like the electric [cooling]
      fan on a car after the engine is turned off, but it was probably
      the car of the guy who stopped.  I'm almost sure the sound
      didn't come from the object.

           The other guy said he was on his way to Jake O'Shaunnessy's
      Restaurant to meet someone and had to get going.  I said I was
      going to go down to the golf course and check that out.  I went
      down to the clubhouse parking lot, there were only two cars
      there, parked in front of the clubhouse.  I didn't see anything
      more unusual there.  The stadium lights were on at the West
      Seattle High stadium there at the park.

           The first thing I thought when I saw it was that it was a
      carbon arc [searchlight], and I was looking around first for a
      carbon-arc searchlight to see if there was some source of the
      light.  I used to be a projectionist and used to work on the
      carbon arc.  You could project the pictures on the clouds with
      one of those things if you wanted to.  But it was definitely a
      physical object.

      [Asked about the weather conditions that night:]  There was a
      full moon that night.  The moon looked huge that night.  It was
      clear, there were sparse clouds but not "en masse" so you
      couldn't see the sky.

           I hadn't been drinking and I don't do any drugs.

      [Asked about his line of work:]  I run a shoe repair concession
      with two other men in the Nordstrom's Men Shoe department, and
      I'm a part-time musician (percussion and piano).

      [Asked about his familiarity with UFO literature:]  We saw the
      Betty and Barney Hill movie, I used to watch a TV series in the
      '60s called Project Blue Book, one of my favorite movies is "The
      Day the Earth Stood Still", and I read Shirley MacLaine's book
      "Out on a Limb".

      [Asked about a description of the object:]  The object was
      metallic blue color.  It was shaped like this [makes an ellipse
      in the air with his two hands], but it wasn't flat like you
      would think a flying saucer should be.  It had greenish yellow
      lights in a row--six of them the same size.  There were three
      rings of rotating white light:  the one on the left was rotating
      counter-clockwise and the one on the right was rotating
      clockwise and the one on the bottom was probably rotating
      clockwise.  It had a blue thing on top like the radar detector
      on an AWAC aircraft.  It may not have been attached.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      West Seattle, Washington UFO Report
                                 March 5, 1988

      PART II:    Narrative of second witness, female, age 33
            Transcribed from notes by Dr. Donald Johnson, March 13, 1988

      [The first three paragraphs are a narrative from a phone
      interview with this witness on Friday, March 11th:]

           While crossing the street with my boyfriend from a corner
      24-hour convenience store we saw a huge, metallic
      spherical-shaped object surrounded by a bright blue light over
      the West Seattle golf course and Camp Long.  The object was as
      wide as a football field is long.  We heard a humming sound, and
      estimated it to be only 300 yards above the golf course.

           We were nearly knocked down by a car because we were
      standing there in the middle of the street kind of mesmerized by
      the sight of such a strange object so close to the ground.  The
      driver of the car pulled over and stopped.  We watched the
      object together for about 30-40 seconds.  It moved very quickly
      right, then left--in sort of a zig-zag--and then it was gone.

           I'm in my thirties and I work as a transit operator for
      Metro [the regional bus system].  I've never seen anything like
      it despite driving buses late at night for many years.  After
      the sighting we discussed the sighting with the other man and we
      decided not to report it.  Later on I decided that we ought to
      report what we had seen to someone, and I looked up "UFO" in the
      white pages and found the number for the UFO Reporting Center
      and called it.  I'm sorry now that the other witness drove away
      before we could get his name.  We called to find out if anyone
      else had reported it and were surprised to hear that no one else
      had.

      [Narrative from March 13, 1988:]

           I was still in the store when he saw the object from
      the sidewalk.  I don't know how long he'd seen it before
      he yelled at me.  But when he got my attention he pointed
      over in the golf course direction.  I saw it when it first
      started to move.  When it moved up, it moved sort of away.  I
      guess east.  The more we talked about it the more we felt that
      we should call somebody.  I called the UFO Reporting Center late
      on Monday morning.  I wanted confirmation that "yes, we did see
      this strange object, because other people saw it, too".  He went
      down to the golf course, I just went home.  I have a
      two-and-a-half-year-old and he was asleep in the car and I
      didn't want to get too close.

           My parents are Jehovah's Witnesses and they have a
      religious interpretation for these things, they say that they
      are "spiritual manifestations" [Note:  the notetaker missed some
      of what the parents' explanation was at this point, however, the
      gist of what she said was that she was skeptical of her parents'
      interpretation.]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


       WHIDBEY ISLAND UFO REPORT CLASSIFIED AS AN "UNKNOWN"

     After a thorough investigation of all pertinent facts, the UFO sighting
reported by Dan MacIndoe of Oak Harbor on January 21st, 1988 has been
classified as a true "unknown".  The Mutual UFO Network (MUFON)--a civilian
organization of trained professionals that investigates UFO reports--has ruled
out all possible conventional explanations for the object seen by Mr.
MacIndoe, his wife, mother, mother-in-law and father-in-law, and three-year-
old daughter.

     Dan MacIndoe, age 32, an ex-Navy lieutenant with seven years military
service in the field of aviation supply--including work assignments with the
Navy's prestigious Blue Angels squadron--was rated as an exceptionally
credible witness by the MUFON organization.

     The UFO encounter began at 10:45 p.m. on the night of January 21st at the
MacIndoe home not far from the Whidbey Island Naval Air Station.  Flight
operations at Whidbey NAS had by that time been over for 15 minutes, with the
last plane reported "on the deck" at 10:30 p.m.

     The UFO was first observed by Cornelia MacIndoe, age 72, Dan MacIndoe's
mother, who sighted a bright, orange-yellow stationary light in the southern
sky when she went outside to smoke a cigarette.  She called the entire
family's attention to the object, and together they watched as the UFO shot
straight up for approximately 3 degrees of arc from a position 25 degrees
above the horizon in the direction of the Naval Air Station.  The object then
abruptly stopped, made a sharp right-angle turn in the horizontal direction
and came straight towards them.

     According to MacIndoe's account, the object covered a distance of one and
a half miles in approximately 3 seconds.  As the UFO approached the house it
seemed to slow, taking approximately 15 seconds to slowly drift directly over
the heads of the five adult witnesses and child.  It disappeared from view
as it travelled in a straight path to the NNE, passing behind some tall fir
trees behind the MacIndoe house.

     While the object was passing overhead Dan MacIndoe was able to observe
the object through a 135 mm telephoto lens, and was also able to determine
that there was no sound associated with its flight.  Mr. MacIndoe described
the shape of the underside of the object as that of "a perfect circle."

     "The lights were blueish-white in nature and I estimate 15 lights spanned
the circumference of the circle.  All remained on forming a circle of 'running
lights'.  The lights would pulse brighter in sequence, I believe going in a
clockwise direction," Dan MacIndoe reported.

     He went on to say, "...during the event winds were calm, there were
scattered clouds in the vicinity.  We live in a rural area.  There were no
sounds.  During the entire episode none of us heard the usual prop or jet
noise associated with military aircraft using the airfield.  At the time the
object was directly overhead I asked my family for complete silence to
listen for engine noise.  There was absolute silence."

     According to Dr. Donald Johnson, Washington State Director for MUFON, a
combination of factors were sufficient to rule out all mundane explanations
for the sighting.  "The fact that this overflight occurred in restricted
military airspace, together with the testimony of multiple witnesses, the
complete lack of sound, the observation of the unusual lighting pattern on the
object seen through magnification, and the lack of wind combine to provide
sufficient information to classify this case as an unknown."

     "In other words, there is little possibility that the object the
MacIndoes and others reported seeing that night was a satellite, balloon,
commercial or military airplane or helicopter, or astronomical body."  The
National Weather Service and Whidbey NAS were called to confirm that there
were no weather balloons released at that time.  Additionally, several of Mr.
MacIndoe's Dugualla Bay neighbors and others from as far away as Lake
Washington, Edmonds, and Bellingham called him to report that they had also
witnessed unusual lights in the sky that evening.

     Dr. Johnson reports that the field investigation has been evaluated by
the national headquarters as complete.  The sighting was assigned a
strangeness rating of four on a five-point scale--labelled as "strange, does
not conform to known principles", and it also received a probability rating of
four on a five point scale--"credible and sound".

-EOF---

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
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UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: West NY UFO sightings part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 19:29:08 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2196 alt.conspiracy:7683 sci.skeptic:15652




----------------------------------------------------------------------
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views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
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As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
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in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------


              THE WESTCHESTER WING -- A CLOSER LOOK

BY   R. Perry Collins

     From the spring of 1983 to the summer and fall of 1984,  the
counties of Westchester, New York and Fairfield, Conneticut  were
the  focus  of  one  of the largest UFO  waves  in  history.   An
estimated   30,000  individuals  in  these  areas  witnessed   an
extremely  large, obviously structured, triangular-shaped  object
cruising  silently at altitudes of less than one  thousand  feet.
It  was  most often described as a huge "V" shaped  flying  wing.
During this same period, while groups of unidentified pilots  had
been  flying light aircraft in V formations,  police  departments
had  been  visited by federal agents offering "hang  glider"  and
"light  aircraft" flights as explanations for the lights  in  the
sky.   Several months after the beginning of these  sightings,  a
popular  television  series began.  The show is  called  "V"  and
portrays  invaders from the stars, disguised as humans,  who,  in
reality are alien reptiles bent on conquering the world.  Can all
this  be coincidence?  If more than 30,000 people have seen  this
thing,  why haven't the major media groups been more  interested?
Why  are federal agents covertly investigating and attempting  to
censor reports of these overflights?   Why now, when unidentified
aircraft can be rapidly detected, intercepted and even shot down,
has this object apparently not been challenged?
     On August 21st, 1983, I personally witnessed the object.   I
grew  up in the Air Force and now work as an aerospace  engineer.
What I saw was not an aircraft nor a group of light planes.  As a
result,  I began an in-depth investigation of the phenomenon  the
next  day.  Prior to August 21st, I had followed reports  of  the
object and spoken with several investigators who were  attempting
to  determine  its real nature.   Then I began investigating  the
reports myself.  I interviewed witnesses, spoke with local police
officers   and  conferred  with  other  investigators  and   with
interested journalists.   I found clear evidence of the existence
of  an  aerial craft,  approximately three times as large as  the
largest    known   conventional   aircraft,    which    displayed
characteristics beyond our current level of technology.   I  also
found  indications  of  a  well-planned attempt  to  coverup  the
sightings,  and  covert investigations by federal agencies  using
FBI operatives and other federal agency personnel.
     The  object  got  major  notice on  March  24th,  1983  when
residents  of  Yorktown, New Castle, Mt. Kisco and  other  nearby
towns  in  New  York State reported it  cruising  slowly  at  low
altitude.  From that date to the present (last confirmed sighting
Dec.  26th,  1984)  the  unknown  object has been  reported  over
Westchester,  Putnam,  Rockland and Duchess counties in New  York
and   over   Fairfield  county   in   Conneticut.    Professional
investigators  have  interviewed more than 2000  witnesses,  more
than  seventy  media articles have appeared (primarily  in  local
newspapers),  and  photographs and video tapes have recorded  the
presence  of the "V" shaped UFO.   Numerous police officers  have
seen  it.   These  same officers have reported attempts by  their
police chiefs to censor their statements.   Investigators of this
phenomenon have been covertly watched and, on occasion, subjected
to spurious interviews by FBI agents.  All of this is documented;
here,  by  the media,  in the logs of investigators,  on tapes of
witness accounts and in signed statements by police officers.
                    WHAT IS REALLY HAPPENING
     Before we can attempt any analysis we must take a long, hard
look  at  the information available.  Three men  have  been  most
active in investigating these reports:  Lt. George Lesnick of the
Fairfield,  Conneticut  police  department,  Philip  Imbrogno  of
Greenwich,  Conneticut,  and myself.  Phil and George  have  been
more  active in interviewing witnesses and  relaying  information
that  the Center for UFO Studies in Illinois.  The head of  CUFOS
and  'dean'  of  UFO research, J.  Allen  Hynek,  has  personally
visited the area several times to interview witnesses with George
and  Phil.   He acknowledges this to be "one of the  largest  UFO
waves in history."
     We  cannot  deal directly with the object,  examine  it  and
determine exactly what it is or where it is from.  We can examine
witness reports, drawings and photographs of the object.  We  can
examine the reaction of the media, of local police and of federal
agencies  such as the FAA, the ANG (Air National Guard)  and  the
FBI.
     Thousands  of  witness  reports are  on  record.   Drawings,
photographs   and  reports  of  aircraft  encounters   are   also
available.   (The  media coverage is listed at the  end  of  this
article.)   While  the object has been seen  primarily  over  the
Westchester/Fairfield area there are reports from Pennsylvania to
Maine  of  a UFO with similar characteristics.   There  are  also
scattered reports of this type of UFO seen during 1980, 1981  and
1982.  The focus, however, seems to be on this 1983 and 1984 flap
over New York and Conneticut.
     The  first  widely  read media article to  comment  on  this
object  was  printed in the Port Chester (New York)  Daily  Item.
Hundreds  Claim  to Have Seen UFO was the headline  and,  indeed,
hundreds of reports of a large, "V" shaped UFO with  multicolored
lights  were received by the police departments of Yorktown,  Mt.
Kisco,  Carmel  and nearby areas.  This was  on  Thursday  night,
March  24,  1983.  Police officers in these towns  also  reported
seeing it.  (For the record, however, one week earlier, on  March
17th,  residents of Kent, N.Y. and motorists on highway I-84  had
reported an identical UFO.)
     The  object was seen the next night, March 25th,  and  again
the   following  night.   Now  the  witnesses  numbered  in   the
thousands.   Other newspapers began picking up the story.   Again
the  object appeared on several nights in early April, this  time
in  the area of Danbury, Conneticut and a story appeared  in  the
Danbury  News-Times.   Then the Sunday New York  Times  on  April
17th carried a lengthy article about the activity.
     The name Philip Imbrogno was seen often and rightly so; Phil
is  one of the most authoritative experts on aerial phenomena  in
the area.  A Viet-Nam war medical corpsman veteran, he is a  high
school science teacher and a graduate astronomer.  Phil is a  man
of many talents, with an exacting attitude as an investigator and
almost  limitless energy.  He began pursuing the mystery of  this
UFO  and,  with  the aid of Lt. Lesnick,  an  experienced  police
investigator,  gathered reams of data.  Verbal reports  on  tape,
written  and  signed reports, occasional  photographs,  drawings,
maps of flight routes and computer evaluations of patterns  began
accumulating  as George and Phil continued their  investigations.
Obligingly,  the UFO continued to reappear.  Then, other  aspects
of the situation also began to occur.
     It was clear to Phil and George and to most of the witnesses
that  what was being seen was not a conventional aircraft  nor  a
group  of  them.   The object hovered,  made little or no  noise,
performed unusual and abrupt turns,  rotated on its own axis  and
displayed extremely rapid accelerations and decelerations.  Often
it  was reported to blink off its lights,  seeming to  disappear,
only  to  reappear seconds later,  lights blazing,  in a  removed
quadrant  of the evening sky miles away.   Official  explanations
began to proliferate.   First they said it was hang gliders, then
"ultra  light"  aircraft.   These explanations were shown  to  be
inaccurate,  or at least,  inadequate.   Such very light aircraft
would  be  hard  pressed to stay aloft even with  the  weight  of
several  hand flashlights,  not to mention six to twenty  bright,
glowing  lights.   Other explanations came to  the  fore.   Light
aircraft  in  formation  became  the byword  of  authorities  and
explainers.  It was, at this time, more than two months after the
beginning of the sightings,  that attention became focused upon a
group  of  pilots flying out of Stormville airport in  New  York.
These  pilots flew close formations,  most often in V  or  wedge-
shaped patterns.  Thus, the perfect explanation for the sightings
was found and publicized.
     Reality,  however, was more complex.  Lt. Lesnick  uncovered
definite  evidence  of censorship attempts directed  towards  the
witnesses  who were police officers.  These officers stated  that
the  police  chiefs  of their departments  had  been  visited  by
federal agents and that they had then been instructed to  explain
the  UFOs as conventional aircraft activity.  The  officers  were
indignant about this, for they were convinced that what they  saw
was  not  normal aircraft activity.  The Stormville  pilots  were
very  evasive  and would not talk to investigators  or  newspaper
reporters.   Several  times they avoided state and  local  police
waiting  in  their  cruisers at the landing  strip  by  diverting
themselves  to  other airports.  More was going on then  met  the
eye.
     Throughout the summer and into the late fall of 1983 the "V"
shaped object continued to be seen.  Media articles appeared, but
less  often,  I  found myself drawn to the  activity,  and  spoke
several  times with George and Phil.  They greatly impressed  me.
These men were very professional UFO investigators.  Compared  to
them, I felt I was a hobbyist.
     At the beginning of this wave of activity I began to keep  a
log  of all information coming my way that might pertain to  this
"object."   My  first  guess was that it was  some  new  type  of
military  aircraft displayed in a strange attempt to gage  public
reaction  to  UFOs.   After  several  talks  with  witnesses  and
aerospace  engineers, this idea began to seem  untenable.   After
August  21st, when the object circled and overflew my  residence,
the  idea  that  it had been constructed using  our  present  day
technology was one I abandoned altogether.
     On  August 21st, 1983, I watched the object at  close  range
for several minutes.  That same night witnesses reported it  over
New   Haven,  West  Haven,  Bridgeport,  Monroe  and   Stratford,
Conneticut.   On September 23rd, 1983, the object was  seen  over
Newton,  Sandy  Hook  and along Highway I-84 in  Conneticut.   We
shall examine  these two nights in depth as an expanded reference
to  the larger range of reported incidents.   In this way we  may
find some tentative answers or at least some closer  descriptions
of its appearances and activities.
     It is important that we draw no conclusions unless warranted
by  the data available.  UFOs are unreal to most of us.  We  have
not  seen them.  We see only the reports.  For those  people  who
saw  this  UFO, it suddenly becomes a reality which  is  open  to
various interpretations.  Explanations, especially for those  not
directly  exposed to the phenomenon, leaped forth.  I saw it.   I
have  a clear grasp of what I saw and how it interacted with  me.
I  have also closely interviewed many of the witnesses of  August
21st  and September 23rd.  Yet, I have no idea what  it  actually
was  --  I can only report on how it appeared and  what  it  did.
What  it  actually  was or is will remain,  for  the  most  part,
unknown until it lands or openly displays itself in daylight.
     Witnesses  agree,  no matter what may have been  aloft,  the
object  they  saw  was not a formation  of  light  planes.   Many
witnesses have seen both the object and a group of light aircraft
in  formation  over their areas (not at the  same  time).   These
witnesses,  some being pilots themselves, agree that there was no
confusing  the  two.   Again,  the  object  was  huge,  displayed
multicolored  lights  (which changed color and  intensity),  flew
below 1000 feet, hovered, moved at very low speeds, turned on its
own axis,  accelerated very rapidly,  cast unusual light beams to
the  ground and interacted with witnesses as if it was  aware  of
the  witness  participation in its appearance.   No formation  of
light planes,  or other conventional aircraft,  can do all  these
things.
                          A CLOSER LOOK
     Let us look at the nights of August 21st and September 23rd,
1983, in more detail.
AUGUST 21st, 1983:
     At  approximately 10:30 p.m.  on the evening of August 21st,
1983,  an  unusual  flying object with  multicolored  lights  was
reported   to   Louis  Coveyduck  at  Tweed-New  Haven   Airport,
Conneticut.   The  first calls came in from the Foxon/East  Haven
area,  followed by calls from New Haven and then West Haven.  Six
witnesses reported more than unusual lights;  their reports  were
of  a huge lighted object seen at close range.   Two  men,  Shawn
Fricker and John Trendine,  both from West Haven, reported seeing
the object hovering low over the Yale Bowl stadium,  just outside
of  New Haven.   Security guards Jose Velasquez and Kenneth Rayon
saw it directly over the Jackson Newspaper building.  Police also
received calls from numerous individuals such as Robert  McBride,
his  wife and neighbors on Washington Avenue in New Haven.   They
consistently  reported  an  extremely  large,  low-flying  object
seemingly studded with multicolored lights.
     At 10:40 p.m.,  three women reported a low flying "V" shaped
object  near Seaside Park in Bridgeport.   These witnesses became
somewhat agitated as the large display of lights seemed to follow
them from the shore and through Bridgeport towards the North  End
of town.   At 10:45 p.m.,  I, myself, saw a set of unusual lights
low  over  the  North End near  St.  Vincent's  Hospital.   As  I
watched,  they seemed to be drifting slowly and then blinked out.
Not  really  believing what I saw,  and attempting to  rationally
explain it to myself mentally,  I moved to a window facing  west,
over Main Street.   As I looked out, the lights reappeared.  They
were stationary now,  and much closer.   There were three widely-
spaced lights,  approximately four city blocks away, about two or
three  hundred feet over the rooftops.   I was on the third floor
of a house on French Street.
     As  I  watched,  I  became convinced that  the  lights  were
unusual  and  that  what I was seeing was  a  UFO.   The  lights,
colored red,  green and blue,  began changing color.   The  green
blinked out, then back on, then they all went out.  At this point
I moved to the north facing window.   Upon looking out and up,  I
witnessed  a huge display of wing shaped colored  lights,  moving
silently  and slowly eastward between me and the  hospital.   The
hospital  sits  on  a hill approximately half a mile away  and  a
quarter of a mile up from my residence.   Being a quality control
engineer  by  profession,   I  computed  the  dimensions  of  the
structure  containing the lights to be at least 500  feet  across
and  300 feet long.   I immediately called Lt.  Lesnick and  then
went outdoors in an attempt to see the object again.
     Security guard Lopes of Sikorsky Field in Stratford reported
that  a  very  excited motorist had driven into  the  airport  at
approximately 10:55 p.m.  to report having seen "a huge UFO" over
Route 25 moments before.  The motorist would have been seeing the
object at the same time and in the same area as myself.
     At 11:06 p.m.,  the Monroe Police Department received a call
from  an electrical engineer living near a new golf course in the
town.   The engineer reported observing a set of unusual  colored
lights  hovering over and behind his house.   At 11:10 p.m.,  the
Monroe  police received another call from a man living less  than
three hundred yards from the engineer.   Lee Lent,  his wife  and
his  eldest son all saw a very large,  "V" shaped group of lights
hovering  at less than two hundred feet in front of their  house.
The lights,  "blue,  green and almost a pink color," hovered  and
then  began  moving directly towards the open fields of the  golf
course.   Mr.  Lent works as a financial director of a successful
company  and  has  often traveled by air,  many  times  in  light
aircraft.   "This was no plane," he stated emphatically.   He and
his  family  had watched it hovering silently  for  approximately
five  minutes  before it began moving silently  over  his  house.
Shortly  after  this,  another Monroe resident and  her  teenaged
daughter  saw  the  object moving slowly over  their  house  back
towards Bridgeport.
     At  11:45  p.m.,  I  returned  to my house  and  called  the
Bridgeport Police Department to report the UFO.  At 11:50 p.m., a
young  woman  in the vicinity of the General Electric plant  near
Boston  and Seaview Avenues called the Bridgeport police  to  say
that  she and several friends were watching a huge lighted object
either moving or hovering in the sky.  Immediately afterwards, at
11:55  p.m.,   Stratford  police  received  a  call  from   Cliff
Robertson,  58,  who stated that he,  his wife and several others
were  watching a "huge cluster of lights" in the air over Conners
Lane near Huntington Road, in Stratford.
     Tracing  the  reports,  we see that  a  huge,  well-lighted,
seemingly "V" shaped object was seen first over East Haven,  then
New Haven,  then West Haven,  then Bridgeport,  then Monroe, back
over  Bridgeport  and onto  Stratford.   The  sightings  occurred
sequentially  from approximately 10:30 p.m.  to 11:50  p.m.   The
flight  path  was  a consistent line over the  closely  clustered
towns.  There can be no doubt something was there.
     Phil  Imbrogno  has gathered many examples of this  type  of
incident  in 1983 and 1984 over Duchess,  Putnam and  Westchester
counties  of New York.   At times of peak frequency,  reports  of
this type of overflight occurred more than twice a week.   George
Lesnick  has made inquiries at local police departments in  these
counties.   He has spoken to police officers who saw the  object.
As  mentioned,  the New York State Police and local police chiefs
at first attempted to officially explain the sightings as "ultra-
light"  aircraft.   More recently the official explanations  have
stated that the sightings were due to a formation of light planes
coming out of Stormville Airport in New York.  An FAA inquiry was
initiated  and it came to light that a group  of  pilots,  flying
light  aircraft,  had  often flown over the same areas  in  close
formation.  The light planes appeared flying at both high and low
altitudes  several  times,  and  many  people,  including  police
officers,  had  seen both the planes and the "UFO" separately and
reported that,  again,  there was no confusing the two.  As early
as April 23, 1983, both Phil Imbrogno and myself received reports
of  "very low flying Cessnas" from a police officer and  from  an
amateur astronomer in the New Fairfield,  Conneticut area.   This
formation  of  planes  was  readily identified as  such  by  both
witnesses and was not referred to as being a UFO.
     Surprisingly,  some local police officers (who witnessed the
UFO themselves) claim, somewhat angrily, that their superiors had
instructed  them  to  say it was an airplane  or  an  ultra-light
plane.   Some  officers  reported  that  their  chiefs  had  been
approached by federal authorities who were attempting to "keep  a
lid" on the unusual activity.  Investigations into the identities
and  motivations  of  the "formation  flying"  pilots  have  been
clouded,  perhaps deliberately, but one salient fact has emerged:
these  flights were never noticed until after the UFO reports  of
March  and April,  1983.   Since the characteristics of those UFO
reports   could  not  be  duplicated  by  any  regular   aircraft
formations,  either the pilots are hoaxers trying to imitate  the
reported UFO or they are part of a well-conceived plan to present
a "rational" explanation for the unusual activity.
     Such  an  explanation could help to keep the public calm  in
the  face of the unknown.   And,  it could give defense  analysts
some  breathing  room.   It  is reported that  UFOs  have  caused
profound alarm at higher levels of military intelligence centers.
They  have interfered with the operation of long-range  ballistic
missile  implacements.   They  have landed near  military  bases.
Numerous  unsuccessful interceptions have been attempted.   These
facts are very well documented in two books:   Casebook of a  UFO
Investigator  by Raymond Fowler and Clear Intent by Larry Fawcett
and  Barry  Greenwood,   both  published  by  Prentice-Hall  Inc.
(Englewood  Cliffs,  N.J.   07632).   A study of these two  books
should give anyone the foundation of an understanding of the  UFO
phenomenon.
SEPTEMBER 23rd, 1983:
     At  about 11:00 p.m.  on the night of September 23rd,  1983,
three girls and the mother of one left a dance at the Sandy Hook,
Conneticut high school.  As they proceeded through Sandy Hook and
onto  the  Highway I-84 overpass,  one of the girls saw  a  "UFO"
almost directly over Sandy Hook.  Excitedly, she told the others,
while  watching it from the rear window of the car.   They  began
making fun of her until they,  too,  saw the object.  The mother,
driving  the  car,  turned  left  onto  Walnut  Tree  Hill  Road.
Suddenly  they  all began seeing the object off to  their  right,
between  the trees along the road.   The mother stopped the  car,
but  refused to allow the girls to get out.   All four watched as
the  object  silently  flew almost  directly  overhead  and  back
towards  I-84.   All  agreed that it appeared to be  very  large,
kite-like,  with four steady, glowing lights (two red, two blue).
The "leading point" of the object in flight was a red light,  the
two  "tips" were blue and the "tail" was red.   They were  steady
and  did  not blink.   The lights were described  as  "too  close
together to be several planes in formation,  but too far apart to
be  one single plane."  As the object moved over to the left side
of  the  car,  the trailing red light went  out.   The  witnesses
estimate that the object was now over Highway I-84.   It appeared
to be a large triangle, with a red light at the apex and two blue
lights  at  the  "wingtips."   The blue  lights  then  went  out,
followed by the disappearance of the leading red light.
     At approximately this same time, a woman graduate student of
the University of Conneticut, 33 years old, saw the object as she
was  driving on I-84.   She reported three unusual lights (a  red
and  two blues) to the Newton Police Department.   She  hurriedly
exited the highway near the Grand Union store and as she did, she
noticed  the  two blue lights go out and then the red light  also
went  out.   She  felt as if "the thing"  had  disappeared.   She
noticed  other  people  on the road  slowing  down,  as  if  also
watching it, and talked with another woman at the supermarket who
had  seen  "it," too.   The police dispatcher from nearby  Newton
told  her  that  there had been two other sightings  of  a  large
unknown  object in the past two weeks,  but advised her to  relax
because whatever it was, the FAA was tracking it.
     Barbara Allen,  a resident of Sandy Hook,  her daughter  and
her son also saw the object at approximately the same time, while
traveling  eastbound  on I-84 in the same  area.   The  daughter,
bright for her eleven years, wrote a most cogent report:
     "I  was thinking about falling asleep.   Then I saw a bright
light  above a hill and I thought it was a radar  tower.   As  we
drove  along,  it was going along the same way we were and it was
very  big or at least bigger than a large plane.   We got off  at
Exit 10 and stopped to look at it.  It was a triangular shape and
had one red light and two blue lights.   As we were watching  it,
the  lights  seemed  to fade away.   I know they (it)  didn't  go
behind a cloud because it was a totally clear night."
     All  agreed that what they saw was unusual and that  it  was
unlike  anything  they had seen before.   After stopping  at  the
bottom  of Exit 10,  they watched as it hovered over them briefly
and  then  moved slowly away.   Barbara talked  with  a  teenager
standing  on  the opposite side of the road,  who had  also  seen
"it."
     The  last  report from the Sandy Hook area that  night  came
from a self employed construction worker who, at age 28, runs his
own concrete business.   Paul Valliquette of Meriden,  Conneticut
was on his way home from a job when he saw it.  Without fear, but
with a lot of curiosity,  Paul stopped his truck on I-84, got out
and  proceeded  to  get a very good look at the object  at  close
range,  with  its lights on and after they went off.   He gave  a
very  concise  report of an  extremely  large,  metallic  object.
Using hand widths and angular measurements (he saw it hovering in
front  of  a  nearby hill),  the dimensions of  the  object  were
computed  by  him to be approximately 800 feet across,  500  feet
long,  and approximately 50 to 100 feet in thickness.  This seems
ludicrously  large,  but  almost every witness  reported  similar
dimensions.   "As  large  as  a  football  field"  was  a  common
comparison.  Paul watched the huge object for about five minutes.
"It" had doused its lights,  but in the moonlight he could see  a
"huge,  grey  metallic object."  Suddenly its lights came back on
and it "moved very swiftly" to the west at the same low altitude.
Paul stated,  "On a soft arc,  it lifted up towards the stars and
became  the  size  of  a pin head in a  matter  of  five  to  ten
seconds."  The acceleration was short-lived, extremely rapid, and
silent.   It  stopped abruptly,  seemingly miles away,  at  about
sixty degrees above the horizon over the area of Ridgefield,  CT.
At this point,  Paul perceived it to be much like a star,  giving
off multicolored lights.
     The reports from each of the two nights are not isolated  to
the   witnesses  mentioned.    Media  articles  appeared  in  the
Bridgeport  Post  of August 22,  1983;  in  the  Meridian  Record
Journal  of  August  24 and in the New Haven Journal  Courier  of
August 23.  Again in September, reports appeared in the New Haven
Register on the 24th and in the Newton Bee on the  30th.   Police
departments  received numerous calls about the object in all  the
towns mentioned.  It is estimated that there were several hundred
witnesses in August and somewhat less in September.
     These  two nights are typical of many.   Phil Imbrogno,  the
most  persistent and perhaps most experienced  investigator,  has
looked  thoroughly  into numerous sets of  similar  reports  over
Westchester, Putnam and Duchess counties of New York.  The record
of  his investigations,  along with photographs,  taped testimony
and police officer observations checked by  Lt.  Lesnick,  leaves
little room for "conventional explanations."
     My own investigations into the object's appearances included
interviews  of  more  than fifty  witnesses,  taped  and  written
testimony,  drawings and other records of reports.  I met several
times  with  Phil Imbrogno and George Lesnick and consulted  with
other  investigators and journalists in gathering  and  comparing
information.  I also consulted with several experienced aerospace
and  astronautical engineers.   They agreed,  after reviewing the
reports,  that those describing a large,  low-flying,  structured
object  could  not  be  explained  by  aircraft  activity.    One
suggestion  was that the object might be a very  large,  parawing
surveillance  craft,  powered  by newly  developed  brushless  DC
electric motors.   Although an attractive concept,  this proposal
has  several  serious  drawbacks.   Such craft are still  in  the
experimental  stage  and  are  being  developed  solely  for  the
military.   What  would  they  be doing  cruising  low  over  the
affluent suburbs of Westchester and Fairfield?  Such surveillance
drones  are designed to be unobtrusive and cannot duplicate  many
of   the   reported   maneuvers  of   the   "Westchester   Wing."
Surveillance  aircraft used at low altitudes are much smaller  in
size  than  the reported UFO.   The general consensus is  that  a
structured object of the reported size and characteristics of the
"Westchester   Wing"   was  beyond  our   present   technological
capabilities.
     Other aspects of the situation surfaced.   On three separate
occasions I encountered direct evidence of covert FBI interest in
investigations  into the sightings.   One evening I found  myself
being interviewed by a person representing herself to be a  MUFON
investigator  (MUFON is a UFO group based in Texas with  branches
throughout the U.S.).   While we spoke,  an FBI agent was sitting
at  the  next table,  listening intently.   This was verified  by
local  police  officers  who  had  an  ongoing  interest  in  the
investigation  and in the presence of the agent,  but  especially
since  he  had not officially notified them of his  presence  and
intent.   Other  agents  were identified  through  license  plate
checks.   The  shadow  cast by the presence of  federal  agencies
interested in the UFO phenomenon has a definite outline, although
the complete image is still unknown.
                             SUMMARY
     It  can be stated that many thousands of individuals in  the
New York/Conneticut area were witness to an unusual aerial object
in  1983  and  1984.   The object was consistently  described  as
extremely large, structured, "V" shaped, silent and flying slowly
at  low altitudes.   It also was seen to accelerate  "very,  very
quickly,"  to rotate on its axis in flight,  make  abrupt  right-
angle turns,  hover motionlessly and display variable lighting as
well as "searchlight-like" beams extending to the ground.  Within
one  month  of the first of these reports,  certain pilots  began
flying light aircraft out of Stormville and other small  airports
in  formations  over the same areas.   They refused  to  identify
themselves  to  civilian investigators and several times  avoided
state  and local police waiting for them by diverting to land  at
other  airports.   Investigations into their identities,  led  by
lawyer Peter Gersten, have linked them, it is said, with the CIA.
Several researchers experienced covert attempts of being followed
and  falsely  interviewed.   Investigations  into  this  activity
showed  these  attempts  to  be the  actions  of  FBI  employees.
Numerous  police officers,  themselves witnesses of  the  unknown
object,  reported  attempted censorship by superiors.   They also
reported,  in  several separate townships,  approaches to  police
chiefs  by  federal agents allegedly attempting to cover  up  and
explain away reports.
     What  were we experiencing?   At this point we can only  say
that  we  were  witnessing  what appears  to  be  a  very  large,
structured vehicle which flew low over populated areas, displayed
unusual  lights perhaps to deliberately attract attention to  it.
What  it  was,  where  it was from and who was or is  behind  its
activities is all still entirely unknown.   Someone or  something
seemed  to be trying to get our attention.   Once  attending,  we
found  ourselves even further entranced with the implications  of
its  appearance.   We need to clearly separate what we know  from
what  we may imagine.   UFOs have somehow managed to consistently
attract  a  low level of public attention for  years.   For  some
reason,  this particular wave of activity seemed to be more  open
and intense.
     Too  many  witnesses  had  seen the  object  for  it  to  be
explained away as an "ultra-light aircraft."  Too many witnesses,
among  them  pilots  and aeronautical  engineers,  had  seen  the
unknown  object  display  characteristics completely  beyond  the
capabilities of "light aircraft formations."  Whether one chooses
to believe the explanations or to believe in UFOs is no longer  a
cogent approach.  One does not "believe in" helicopters.  One can
only  accept the evidence,  all of the evidence,  in showing  UFO
activity  occurred  on  a surprisingly consistent  and  prolonged
basis in 1983 and 1984 over the New York/Conneticut area.
     We  cannot define completely the nature of this activity  at
this  time.   We  can,  however,  closely  examine  the  evidence
gathered.   And, thanks to the efforts of Philip Imbrogno, George
Lesnick and others, that evidence is considerable.  Using what we
know are verified reports, we can make some reasonable statements
and deductions about it.   It seems clear that an unknown  agency
was  displaying what we call a UFO to thousands of individuals in
the  densely populated New York/Conneticut  area.   The  displays
were   consistent   and   presumably  were   attention   seeking,
particularly by the object turning its lights on and off.   If it
did  not  want to be seen,  we may presume,  it  would  not  have
illuminated itself at all.  The object was seen only at night and
seemed  to have no clearly detectable purpose for flying low over
populated areas except,  perhaps,  to demonstrate unusually  high
performance  flight characteristics.   The object was huge:   one
witness,  Mr.  Valiquette, compared it to the size of three jumbo
jet 747 aircraft lined up in a row.
     The  extreme  size  of  the  object  and  its  unusual   and
unbelievable flight characteristics invite us to be in awe of its
presence.   At  the  same  time,  it did not  display  itself  in
daylight  or,  as far as we know,  it never made contact with the
ground;  its presence did not create hysteria, rather it seems we
were  gently introduced,  over a period of many  months,  to  the
reality of its existence.
     The  UFO  phenomenon has been following this modus  operendi
for  many  years.   In  New England the  manifestations  of  this
particular UFO showed a greater frequency,  a greater consistency
and a greater duration than previous UFO waves.   We might deduce
that  the UFO phenomenon is accelerating its program.   We  might
consider  that  our reaction to the phenomenon could be  just  as
important as our realization of its actual nature.
                           SPECULATION
     There are reports that:   Minuteman missile systems have had
their  command  and  control  computer  systems  crashed  by  the
appearances   of   UFOs;   UFOs   have   effortlessly   destroyed
antiaircraft missiles launched at them over Korea,  over Belgium,
over Moscow; jet fighters launched at them over the United States
and  the  Soviet Union have been lost in  interception  attempts;
electromagnetic communications and radar have been totally jammed
at military bases for hours during UFO appearances; and UFOs have
closely  overflown and landed near military bases throughout  the
world.   At the same time UFOs have made appearances to  isolated
individuals   and   have  overflown  towns  and  cities   without
displaying hostility.
     Perhaps  we  are  being slowly and gently  introduced  to  a
superior  culture  which will not allow nuclear conflict  on  our
planet.   Our adolescence may be over.   It may be that we  shall
resolve  our  international differences and go on to an  eventual
open  and peaceful contact.   It may also happen that we  may  be
involved  in a nuclear conflict.   Such an event presumably could
be stopped by the UFO "agency," since it has shown the capability
for  intervention.   An  intervention on this scale  would  be  a
tremendous shock to humanity.   The Westchester overflights,  the
Exeter,  NH sightings of the last decade,  and the reports of UFO
appearances  in  the  past  several decades may  be  designed  to
cushion that shock.  Perhaps time will tell.

=================================================================

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: West NY UFO sightings part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 19:31:55 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2197 alt.conspiracy:7684 sci.skeptic:15653


-----Westchester/NY sightings part 2 ------------------------------

THE WESTCHESTER WING - PART II

     The  wave of UFO activity characterized as the  "Westchester
Wing"  has  carried on into 1985,  although the magnitude of  the
wave seems to have diminished.   There have been several  unusual
incidents  which serve to highlight covert federal interests  not
only  in  "coverup"  attempts but also in active pursuit  of  the
object(s).   It has become increasingly obvious to  investigators
that  the  federal  government  not only  is  almost  frantically
attempting to explain away and deny the phenomenon,  but also  to
tap   the   efforts   of   those   less   restricted   (civilian)
investigators.    This  has,  at  times,  led  to  some  humorous
situations.   At  one  point,  in a conversation with Bob  Girard
about the implications of this surveillance, I jokingly said that
I really had no problem with it, as I belonged to the "KSP."  Bob
asked  what  that was.   I calmly replied that the  KSP  was  the
"Krypton   Special   Police,"   assigned   to   investigate   the
investigators  of  UFO investigators.   Whoever was listening  in
overreacted as our line was immediately cut and I was left with a
dead phone.
     Lt.  Lesnick,  tired  of being followed whenever he went  to
interview witnesses,  decided to get even.   He had his followers
tailed.   For several weeks up to five cars played Keystone  cops
across  the Conneticut and New York countryside.   Phil Imbrogno,
amazed,  watched a helicopter slowly drifting over his  residence
as an individual inside pointed a camera at him.   Quickly,  Phil
ran  for  a  camera  to point back at  them.   Heedless  of  this
merriment,  the "Wing" continued appearing,  making friends among
the populace and causing alarm to the establishment.
     The implications of all this, and the details of the actions
of  both the UFOs and the people involved with them  provides  us
with a rich field of information.  There is a great deal to learn
here, not only about our "visitors," but about ourselves.  When I
say "making friends among the populace" I mean it literally.   In
many  cases involving this "Westchester Wing," as with other  UFO
appearances  over  the years,  there is evidence of what we  call
"psychic"  interaction  between  the witnesses  and  the  object.
There have been many cases,  some of which will be detailed here,
where this interaction took place.   For instance, the object has
been  noted to recede in distance when witnesses become  fearful,
come  closer  when they desired a better  look,  and  respond  to
witness  viewing positions with maneuvers and displays of lights.
The  object  has  hovered over residences  of  families  who  had
noticed  it slowly following them home.   It has even hovered  at
less  than  500 feet altitude a short distance from  homes  until
whole families gathered to watch.  Then, slowly cruising directly
over, it displayed itself with breathtaking effects and beautiful
lights.  The wing shaped arrays of light are multicolored, strong
but with a soft glow and are almost entrancing.  These lights are
turned on and off, again in direct correlation to the presence of
witnesses.  Someone, it seems, is saying hello.
     Someone  is also paying very close attention to our  nuclear
weapons   storage   areas.    Someone   is   providing   periodic
demonstrations of ability to quickly and easily nullify ballistic
missile  installations,  antiaircraft  missile launches  and  jet
aircraft interception attempts.   This activity has been going on
for  years  but it is only recently that investigators have  been
able  to  get  solid  information  about  it  and  to  make  that
information more available to the public.   The wave of  activity
involving  the  "Westchester  Wing" comes at just  this  time  of
growing  public awareness.   This UFO wave has been identified by
J. Allen Hynek as one of the largest and most consistent displays
in history.   It has been centered over one of the most  affluent
and  influential population centers in the nation.   We must  ask
ourselves whether or not all this can be coincidental.
     There  have been numerous appearances of the "Wing" in 1985,
but,  as stated,  the reports have decreased in number.   I shall
concentrate  on three specific events of note;  a  very  dramatic
incident over the Indian Point nuclear facility,  a sighting over
Meriden,  Conneticut involving an untraceable military helicopter
and  an  unusually  well-planned example  of  efforts  to  divert
attention  from the real phenomenon.   These cases will provide a
focus for what seems to be the fading of this particular wave  of
UFO  activity.   As  other  investigators,  particularly  Jacques
Vallee,  have  noted,  UFOs generally seem to present  themselves
with periodic waves in both time and location.  This wave may now
have  served  its  purpose:   the  reinforcement  of  the  almost
mythological reality of the UFO phenomenon.
     The   three   examples  shall  detail  some   reactions   of
established   social  groups,   primarily  those  concerned  with
government and national security.   Before going into depth  with
those examples, let's look more closely at the reactions of local
groups and individuals, especially those individuals who observed
the  "Wing" at close range.   The reactions of local police  were
touched  on  in the previous article.   Many police officers  who
were  witnesses to the low overflights of the UFO were adamant in
their statements.  They agreed that what they saw was not a plane
or  groups  of  planes.   One  officer  reported  a  very  large,
structured craft which glided silently over his cruiser, stopped,
rotated  on its axis,  and moved slowly over his position  again.
Many  other patrolmen who had seen only the formations of  planes
were just as convinced that the whole thing could be explained as
aircraft.   In  early 1983,  when the UFO overflights began,  the
first  explanation  offered  was  that  the  sightings  could  be
explained by the presence of ultralight aircraft.   Just as  this
was being publicized as untenable (largely through the efforts of
Phil  Imbrogno),  the  formations of Cessna aircraft began to  be
noticed.   It  is  important  to note that  these  formations  of
aircraft had not been widely seen nor reported in the media until
more  than  a month after the first reported UFO  sightings  over
Yorktown,  N.Y.   Since  that time there have been many  reports,
both of a very large,  low, dark object variously illuminated and
of  close formations of light aircraft,  flying at five to  seven
thousand feet, displaying non-regulation lights.  Many witnesses,
some  of  them  pilots  themselves,  reported  having  seen  both
displays.  They agreed that there was no confusing the two.
     While  the majority of the population in the area where  the
highest  number  of  reported  sightings   has  seen  nothing,  a
significantly  large minority has viewed and reported  definitely
seeing  an unusual object(s).   Throughout the summer and fall of
1983  and  well into 1984 the UFO wave  gained  momentum.   Local
media  reports,  witness reports and intensive  investigation  by
Lesnick  and Imbrogno became the talk of many social  gatherings.
It  became fashionable to discuss the subject and debate the pros
and cons of its real nature.  Local newspapers did yeoman service
in presenting many of the aspects of the situation.   Independent
radio  and  television  stations  followed  the  activity,  often
interviewing Lt.  Lesnick and Imbrogno.   The "V" shaped displays
of lights continued.   Those who saw them were often professional
people whose articulate reports were difficult to  discount.   It
became  easier,  as reports came in,  to separate the planes from
the UFO.  Often the witnesses themselves knew the difference.
     The area where these reports were most concentrated included
Westchester,   Putnam  and  Duchess  counties  of  New  York  and
Fairfield County in Conneticut.   These four counties are closely
clustered  around New York City.   The media there  receive  much
more  national attention and were reluctant to get involved  with
the  whole subject.   City journalists who spoke to investigators
said they frankly didn't know what to think.   There were several
times  that  major  television networks  mentioned  the  reports.
These  came  after evenings where the witnesses numbered  in  the
thousands.   But these were isolated dates and the networks  made
no  effort to follow up or clarify their brief airings.   All but
one of the major newspapers of the city made little or no  effort
to  publish the numerous reports.   The New York Times  published
two well written items discussing  the activity.   These appeared
on April 17, 1983, near the beginning of the true UFO wave and on
September 11,  1984,  as the wave continued but as reports of the
aircraft became more numerous.
     The reports of low overflights of the large,  structured UFO
often referred to strong thoughts and feelings by the individuals
involved.   Often the UFO seemed to respond to these thoughts and
in  some  cases to initiate them.   Many witnesses  noticed  more
direct interaction than the obvious light displays and maneuvers.
Bill  Hele  works  as  meteorologist  for  the  National  Weather
Corporation at Westchester Airport.   On the evening of March 24,
1983,   he  was  driving  along  the  Taconic  State  Parkway  in
Westchester  County,  N.Y.  when he saw the object.   "I've  been
around  aircraft  all my life and I can honestly say  I've  never
seen anything like it," he stated.   "I had the feeling of  being
stared at, analyzed and rejected.  It wasn't a dangerous feeling,
but I had the feeling of being examined head to toe.  There was a
series of lights, maybe a half a dozen in a row, with one  or two
hanging   on the end like a pendant.   They went out for 15 to 20
seconds and reappeared with no sound.   There was no  shadow,  no
silhouette,  no  nothing.   Just lights,  but they were  changing
multiprismatically.   We're talking a magnitude of a quarter mile
long  or  longer  of lights...It caught me  by  total  surprise."
Hele's  experience  was mentioned in the September issue of  Omni
magazine and again in the Hartford Courant of August 16, 1984.
     As  the sightings continued,  there were no more people  who
noticed   an  almost  "psychic"  interaction  with  the   object.
Approximately  ten  percent  of the witnesses  reported  definite
correlations  between  their  thoughts and  the  actions  of  the
"Wing."   On  March 17,  1983,  between 7 and  10  p.m.,  several
hundred people in the area of Brewster,  N.Y.  watched as a large
"V"  shaped array of lights cruised low over the town and  nearby
Interstate 84.   One witness,  Dennis Sant, got an extremely good
look at it.   He and his family were coming home from church when
they saw the object hovering near their home.  As they got closer
to  the house,  it seemed to disappear.   Thinking that  was  all
there was to see, they went inside.  Soon Sant felt an impulse to
go back outside and walked out his front door.   As he glanced in
the direction of nearby I-84,  he was a large "boomerang"  shaped
object hovering silently less than 200 feet over the highway.  It
had red,  white, blue and green lights on its "wings" and a large
yellow  light in the middle.   People on the road were  stopping,
exiting their cars and staring at it.   Sant remembers wishing he
could  get  a better look.   Immediately after his  thought,  the
craft  made a sharp turn and slowly moved directly  towards  him.
It lost altitude until it was about thirty feet from him and less
than  100  feet  up.   Now it stopped and  resumed  hovering  for
approximately  one minute.   Then it began slowly moving over his
back  yard,  emitting a soft hum.   Sant was able to  jog  almost
directly under it and saw a dark,  grey metallic structure.   The
object  again  stopped  and  hovered and Sant  backed  away  from
beneath  it.   As his family and neighbors watched,  it  suddenly
shot  down  a brilliant beam,  illuminating the entire  yard  for
approximately thirty seconds.   It then slowly moved away towards
the north, gaining altitude.
     Many  more such "interactive" cases could be presented here,
but  I prefer to discuss one with which I am most familiar  -- my
own.   As described in my previous article, I too got a good look
at the "Wing" in late August of 1983.  Several hundred people saw
the  object  that night over a cluster of Conneticut  towns  that
included  New Haven,  Orange,  Milford,  Bridgeport,  Monroe  and
Stratford.   I interviewed many of them on tape.   We all saw the
same  thing  and many of us had similar reactions.   I  was  home
alone that night on the third floor of my residence in the  north
end  of  Bridgeport,  near  St.  Vincent's  Hospital.   Strangely
enough, just before I saw it, I was reviewing some notes I'd made
after speaking with Lt. Lesnick about the wave of "Wing" reports.
Deciding to take a break, I walked to my north window.
     Suddenly  three  lights  appeared,  seemingly low  over  the
rooftops  to the northwest.   I told myself I was seeing a  light
plane,  but immediately dismissed the idea as the lights were too
widely spaced and were drifting very slowly to my left.   Just as
I became intensely curious,  the lights went out.   Hoping to see
them  again,  I moved to my bedroom and the west  window.   As  I
looked  out,  directly  over  my  neighbor's  house,  the  lights
reappeared.   They  were  much closer now,  stationary and  about
twenty to twenty-five degrees above the horizon.   I was  amazed.
Here  I was,  a man whose hobby is UFOs,  apparently seeing  one.
The lights sat there, the left one red, the middle one green, the
right one blue.   Abruptly,  I began speaking aloud,  "If you are
what   I   think  you  are,   tell  me  somehow  that   I'm   not
hallucinating."   The lights seemed to react;  the  green  slowly
faded  out,  came  back  on and they all  faded.   Immediately  I
received  a strong impression to move back to the  north  window.
The  impression  was so abrupt and so clearly not my own  thought
that  I started to resist it even as I began to move to the  next
window.   Excitement  and curiosity overcame me,  however,  and I
quickly moved to the forward room and leaned out the open window.
An  immense,  wing shaped array of lights greeted  me.   Later  I
calculated  that the object supporting the lights must have moved
sideways  and forwards at least one-quarter-of-a-mile in the  few
seconds it took me to move from the west to the north window.  It
was now almost directly overhead,  between myself and nearby  St.
Vincent's  hospital.    It  was  moving  slowly,  silently,  apex
forward,  directly to the east.   I had several reactions.  I was
conscious of a very focused and somehow logical presence,  but my
mind  was  only  secondarily aware of this.   I had worked  as  a
quality control engineer and had grown up in an Air Force family.
I first realized that this "wing," if that was what it was, could
not be an airfoil.   It was moving too slowly to hold itself  up.
I  was  also busily engaged trying to line up  reference  points,
judge  how  many hand widths it took up,  etc.,  so that I  could
later  trigonometrically  figure out its actual  dimensions.   It
seemed  very  large and very low.   For approximately  20  to  30
seconds  it drifted over and then suddenly the lights dimmed  and
went out.  I strained to see a shape or structure, but could not.
      In  all the excitement,  I hadn't thought to find a camera.
I  quickly  walked to the phone,  noting the time from  the  wall
clock  and called Lt.  George Lesnick.   After a  brief  talk,  I
walked  outside and towards the area where it had  "disappeared."
I spent a long time,  at least half an hour,  standing in an open
area,  wondering,  hoping it would come back.   It had definitely
impressed  me,  "psychically"  and otherwise.   As  I  previously
mentioned,  I  spent a good deal of time on the phone that night,
calling the local police and airports,  finding that many  others
were also seeing it.
     There  are numerous other examples of the interactive nature
of  this wave of UFO activity.   In July of 1984 I interviewed  a
family of four living in the suburbs of Danbury, Conneticut.  The
husband had been leaving work later than usual and was moving out
of the parking lot when he noticed some odd looking lights in the
nearby sky.   At first he paid little attention to them, thinking
only that a plane was flying around at low altitude.  As he drove
home  (a  trip  of several minutes) he began  noticing  that  the
lights  seemed  to be pacing him.   Still he took  little  notice
until  he pulled into his driveway and got out of  his  car.   He
then  could  clearly see a huge array of colored lights  drifting
slowly  towards his house.   Calling his wife and children,  they
all  gathered on the back porch just as the object came  directly
over  them.   It was clearly triangular in shape and as it  moved
overhead it executed an abrupt ninety degree turn without slowing
or showing a turn radius.   The husband described the turn,  "The
tip  of the triangle was moving in the direction of  flight  when
the  thing seemed to slowly rotate on its central axis,  so  that
the  tip  was  finally  pointing ninety  degrees  from  where  it
started.   Then,  without  any change in speed,  just as the  tip
completed its rotation,  the thing just moved off in a completely
separate direction, back over the front of my house."  The couple
had  spoken  to only a few close friends about the  incident  and
seemed  relieved  to  hear  that many other  people  were  having
similar  experiences  in  the  area.   While  this  case  doesn't
necessarily  show  interaction  of  a  "psychic"  nature,   there
certainly appears to have been a specific display for a  specific
group of witnesses.  The family felt no fear of the object and it
displayed no hostility.  Again we can say it seems someone, using
a  clearly unknown and very impressive technology,  may be saying
"hello" at such a level so as not to disturb society as a  whole.
The  apparently  immense craft has yet to land in the  center  of
town  in broad daylight.   Human nature and our current  cultural
consensus  could  conceivably make such an event an  unmanageable
chaos.   Whoever  is "saying hello" presumably knows us well  and
seems  to be showing great care in letting us get  gradually  and
comfortably acquainted with it or them.
     We should attempt here a closer approximation to the  actual
structure  of  the object displaying  the  lights.   "Westchester
Wing"  is a term I coined simply because most of the reports were
coming  from  Westchester  residents  and  most  of  the  reports
describing a wing or boomerang shaped display of lights.   Only a
relatively  few reports refer to a structure.   The  most  common
descriptions  of the structure itself are:  huge,  dark  metallic
grey,  a  grid  or lattice underneath,  tubular  attachments  and
circular attachments.  Descriptions vary as to the actual outline
of  the  object  or objects.   Phil  Imbrogno  has  deduced  from
computer  studies  of  reported  times,   areas,   durations  and
frequencies  that  we  may  be  dealing with  as  many  as  three
different UFOs, all with similar characteristics.
     One  witness  I interviewed gave some pertinent clues  about
the  ambiguity  of the actual shape or structure of  the  unknown
object.   The  report came from a professional woman living  near
Goshen,  Conneticut.   Between 9:00 and 10:00 p.m.,  on September
17th,  1984, she was driving along a fairly deserted road outside
of  Goshen  when she saw a long string of  glowing  white  lights
paralleling  her  car just over the treetops on the side  of  the
road.   She  slowed  to get a better look and as she did  so  the
lights moved directly over her car, changing in shape to resemble
a  very large "horse shoe."  They remained hovering like this for
approximately  two minutes.   A pickup truck approached from  the
opposite lane and continued on down the road.  As it disappeared,
the  lights seemed to "uncoil" and form a "V" shape,  which  then
very  rapidly moved away to the south.   The woman was  convinced
that the lights were all attached to one object as their relative
distance from one another never varied, only their configuration.
Within  an  hour  of her sighting,  reports  were  received  from
several hundred people in the areas of Southington and Southbury,
Conneticut,  approximately  thirty  miles  away.   From  all  the
available  reports of these definitely unidentified  objects,  we
can  deduce  only two possibilities.   Either there  are  several
structurally different UFOs or there is one very large UFO  which
appears to change shape using a variable lighting display.
     The  first  of the previously mentioned three  incidents  of
1985  on which we'll focus actually took place in the  summer  of
1984,  but  only  came to public attention in January  1985.   On
January 12,  1985,  two newspapers ran similar  headlines.   They
were  startling  and controversial.   "NUKE PLANT  GUARDS  REPORT
HOVERING UFOS" appeared in the Journal-News of Nyack, NY "UFOS --
DID  ALIENS BUZZ INDIAN POINT PLANT?" read the Reporter  Dispatch
of  White Plains,  New York.   Again it was through the  tireless
efforts  of  Phil  Imbrogno that these incidents came  to  light.
both  articles said basically the same thing.   The stories  were
presented fairly,  with both sides of the question aired.   Plant
authorities   basically  denied  and  downplayed  the   incident.
Imbrogno stated that on July 24,  1984,  a huge "V" shaped object
slowly  descended  to  within 300 yards  of  the  nuclear  plant.
Guards became alarmed, shotguns were issued and nearby Fort Smith
was  alerted.   John Branciforte,  security coordinator at Indian
Point,  stated:   He (Imbrogno) could possibly be making it up or
he took what they (witnesses) gave him and stretched it  out.   I
think  people  are  going  to publish  stories  on  hysteria  and
misinformation.    As   far   as  I'm  concerned,   it's   purely
speculation."
     The real story, related by Lt. George Lesnick, sounds almost
like  science  fiction.   Lesnick  was with  Imbrogno  when  they
investigated the incident.   They interviewed six of the  fifteen
guards involved.   They found more than twenty other witnesses in
residences  near  the  installation.   And  they  found  definite
indications  of  a coverup,  of jobs  threatened,  of  an  almost
frantic effort to keep the real story from surfacing.  Whether or
not  federal  authorities were involved  wasn't  determined,  but
certainly  responsible officials denied the known facts and  even
came  close to slander.   From all that I know of  the  case,  it
seems some of the officials, uninformed of the real nature of the
events, simply tried to explain it away on the basis of their own
preconceptions.   As in many UFO cases,  there seems to have been
two types of coverup:   official denial of the facts by those who
should  be  aware of them and denial of the facts by those  whose
access to them was not direct.   The second manifestation of  our
desire  to create and maintain a comfortable cultural  consensus,
whereas  the  first is purposeful deception and is not so  easily
forgiven.
     George  Lesnick had worked as a police officer for the  town
of  Fairfield,  Conneticut for twenty nine years,  rising to  the
rank  of  Lieutenant before retiring in July of 1985.   He  is  a
healthy,  robust,  straightforward  man who had received numerous
commendations for his police work.   He had been instrumental  in
saving  lives,  solving  kidnap cases and generally  serving  his
community  as a dedicated and professional police  officer.   His
comments and investigations on a case are those of a professional
investigator.   He  does not "stretch facts."  If George  is  not
absolutely sure of his material, he does not speculate.
     It  is  with  this  in mind that I relate  the  events  that
actually  led to the January headlines in those New York  papers.
I  spoke  with  George  several times to get  the  facts  of  the
incident straight.  In October of 1984, George, Phil Imbrogno and
J.  Allen Hynek were being interviewed on a late night radio show
in New York.  Lee Spiegel of NBC had all three men on a telephone
hookup to discuss the now twenty month long wave of UFO  activity
involving   the   "Westchester  Wing."   After  the   show,   the
investigators  received fifteen calls.   One came from a man  who
George  named  "Deep Throat."  He was a security officer  at  the
Indian  Point nuclear facility.   He had something he  wanted  to
talk  about  with  the investigators.   A time and a  place  were
arranged for an interview.   No one but Lesnick, Imbrogno and the
guard  knew of the meeting.   The officer indicated he would have
several other guards with him.
     George  and Phil arrived at the meeting to find  six  guards
from   the  plant  and,   surprisingly,   lawyer  Peter  Gersten.
Accompanying  Gersten was the same woman who had  interviewed  me
the year before,  posing as a MUFON investigator.  (As related in
my  previous article,  she was accompanied at that time by an FBI
agent, sitting quietly at the next table, unnoticed by myself but
under  surveillance by local plainclothes police.   George  later
informed me that he, too, had been invited to that first meeting,
but  had declined>)  As the two investigators entered  the  diner
that had been set up as the rendezvous,  they noticed Gersten and
his  friend,  and  somewhat surprised,  began to talk with  them.
"Deep  Throat"  came over and introduced  himself  and  indicated
where the other five guards were sitting.   At this point Gersten
seemed  to  try  to take over and manage  the  meeting,  inviting
everyone  to  sit  at his  previously  reserved  table.   Lesnick
interrupted  and insisted on separating the witnesses,  so as  to
get a clearer look at how their stories compared.   He took three
and Phil took three, leaving Gersten and his friend somewhat at a
loss.
     The   story  that  came  forth  was  startling  but  not  so
unfamiliar  to  those aware of how authorities at  higher  levels
react to the presence of UFOs at "sensitive"  installations.   To
be fair I attempted to contact the woman involved.   It took some
time, but I found her Conneticut address, mailed her a letter and
got no response.  I drove to her house, dropped a note asking her
to  call  me (along with a copy of my previous PURSUIT  article).
She  did  call,  but  quickly  denied  being  aware  of  any  FBI
involvement and hung up before I could ask about her being at the
Indian  Point meeting.   Maybe she's being set  up,  maybe  she's
actively  involved,  but  certainly  she pops  up  under  unusual
circumstances  asking informed questions about UFOs.   She is not
an  investigator  for MUFON as she told  me.   This  I  confirmed
through   Marge   Christensen,   MUFON  state   coordinator   for
Massachusetts.  Perhaps I am mistaken.  Perhaps she has a sincere
interest in UFOs.   Having met her,  I would say her interest  is
sincere,  but  then  so is the interest of the FBI  -- they  just
don't seem to be able to admit it.
     All  six  guards  related the same basic  story.   Phil  and
George questioned them for nearly two hours.   On the evening  of
July 24,  1984,  a huge,  V shaped object, displaying two rows of
bright,  glowing lights, slowly approached the nuclear plant.  It
descended to an altitude of less than 500 feet and approached the
facility to within 100 yards.  The second shift security officers
at  first  could  not believe it.   The object then  stopped  and
hovered over them,  emitting a low humming noise.  The men became
nervous  as  the object continued to hover and someone  gave  the
order to issue shotguns.  Fifteen guards were involved and as the
object  remained  stationary they became very  nervous.   Another
order  was  issued  to contact nearby Fort  Smith.   As  the  now
thoroughly shaken guards watched,  the object continued to  hover
almost  directly  overhead.   After approximately 15 minutes  the
object slowly drifted away and then abruptly accelerated  upwards
and to the northwest.  The security officers interviewed were all
relieved that no one had ordered them to fire upon the craft, but
admitted that they were keyed up enough that they would have, had
it been deemed necessary.
     The  two  investigators made appointments with some  of  the
witnesses  to meet again,  and "Deep Throat" called them  several
more times.   In his last call he said he could no longer talk or
meet  with  Lesnick  or Imbrogno,  as his job  was  in  jeopardy.
Neither  of  the investigators could reach any of those they  had
interviewed  earlier.    They  were  simply  told  by  powerplant
authorities  that the men were unavailable for comment and  could
not come to the phone.   When asked about possible films from the
plant's  security  cameras,  the same officials replied that  the
cameras  had  not  been working that night  due  to  a  technical
malfunction.   Lesnick  was told the cameras "weren't loaded"  at
the  time.   As  a  professional police officer,  he  found  this
explanation  difficult  to  believe.    Considering  the  current
protests  about  nuclear  power  facilities,  and  the  resultant
activity  of  demonstrators that appear  around  such  plants,  a
"malfunction  of  security cameras" is not likely.   Security  at
sensitive installations has also been intensified due to  ongoing
threats of terrorist activity.
     The  second  incident  of  note  took  place  over  Meriden,
Conneticut early in April of 1985.   At the time I was working as
a  technical  supervisor  at an engineering company  in  Meriden.
Many of my fellow employees knew of my interest in UFOs and would
occasionally drop in to my office to discuss the  subject.   That
morning,  as  I  was walking towards my work  area,  a  secretary
approached  me  to relate a UFO sighting she,  a friend  and  her
friend's father had experienced less than nine hours before.   As
I  briefly  questioned her it became apparent that what  she  had
seen fit the "V" shaped object category.  The three witnesses had
seen the object moving slowly,  apex towards the ground, near the
junction of the Merritt Parkway (Highway 15) and I-91 (Interstate
Highway to Hartford).   Since this was near our plant, I took the
opportunity  to  drive over to the area at coffee  break.   As  I
looked  around  for  powerlines or  other  features,  I  suddenly
noticed  a very low flying helicopter of unusual  design.   I  am
fairly  familiar  with aircraft but could not at  first  identify
this  one.   It  appeared  to be a military aircraft  of  gunship
design.   Stopping  my  car,  I got out and viewed  the  aircraft
through binoculars.   It seemed to be making a sweep of the  area
and was at less than 300 feet altitude.  As it made a second pass
near  my  position,  I could clearly see it,  indeed,  was  of  a
military  gunship  design,   painted  a  dark  blue  and  showing
commercial  NS numbers in red.   I noted the numbers and returned
to  work as the helicopter slowly moved away to the north at  the
same low altitude.
     Back at the office,  I had little time to really think about
it, but I was almost sure that there was a connection between the
UFO  sighting  of the previous evening and the appearance of  the
unusual  aircraft.    Around  two  that  afternoon,  an  engineer
coworker  dropped  by to tell me that he and his wife  were  sure
they  had seen a UFO early that morning.   It turned out to  have
the same characteristics as the one seen by the secretary, but it
was  seen six hours after hers and was not moving slowly at  all.
In fact,  the engineer and his wife were at first convinced  they
were  watching a low flying delta winged bomber except that after
very quickly traversing the Meriden area, it had stopped abruptly
and hovered,  again over the area of the highway  junction.   The
helicopter  had  arrived  no  more  than  five  hours  after  the
sighting.   This  was too much for me to ignore,  so I called the
Bridgeport  Air Registry Service and gave them the NS  numbers  I
had  noted.   I asked who might be flying the craft that day over
Meriden.   After  several  minutes they replied that  I  must  be
mistaken  because  the only helicopter with that registry  number
was owned by an individual in Torrance, California.  Now I really
became  curious.   What was a very expensive military  helicopter
doing  low over Meriden,  Conneticut,  flying a search pattern in
exactly  the same area as of a UFO report only hours  old?   What
private individual could afford it, get clearance to buy it, ship
it  from  coast to coast and then casually use  it  to  seemingly
track UFOs?  This was too much.
     I  didn't  give  up,  but  I  eventually  did  find  myself,
basically,  chasing my own tail.   I called the Sikorsky Aircraft
plant,  the  Army and Air National Guard in Hartford,  the  State
Police, the Coast Guard at East Haven, the New Haven airport, the
Hartford   airport  (all  in  Conneticut)  and  finally   another
investigator  in Long Island.   I got nowhere.   Nobody had heard
of,  seen  or  had any record of such a  helicopter.   Finally  I
called Torrance,  California and asked for the number of the  man
listed as the registered owner.  There were two listings for that
name.   I  called them both.   The first man laughed and said  he
sure would like to own a helicopter, but he didn't think he could
handle the payments.   The second politely said no, he didn't fly
and that I must be mistaken.   I struck out.   Whatever happened,
three things stand out:   the reported UFO apparently was our old
friend,  the  "Wing;" the helicopter was almost as unusual as the
UFO itself;  the coincidence of the UFO and the gunship being  in
exactly  the same area within hours of each other is difficult to
explain.   Almost as an afterthought,  I might add that  military
helicopters  of gunship design are not usually painted dark  blue
and  they definitely do not display civilian registration numbers
in bright red paint.  You can draw your own conclusions!
     The third incident of note in 1985 really didn't involve the
"Westchester Wing" directly,  but it certainly gives a very clear
example of the extreme efforts being made to dismiss and  explain
away this wave of UFO activity.  It began in February of 1985.  I
was  being interviewed by Jim Montavalli,  managing editor of The
Fairfield Advocate, about the UFO activity.  I had contacted him,
presented him with the evidence I had gathered,  and asked if  he
was interested in an article for his paper.  I found Jim to be an
interested  and  unbiased man,  and he ran an enthusiastic  three
page article on Feb.  20th.   I impressed upon him the fact  that
the  two most informed and active investigators of this UFO  wave
were Lt. Lesnick and Phil Imbrogno.
     Montavalli  contacted  them  and arranged for an  hour  long
television  interview on his weekly program "What Do You  Think?"
The  show  was  well advertised for a week  in  advance  and  was
presented live on WUBC,  Channel 12 from 8:00 to 9:00 p.m. on the
evening  of March 20th.   Just as the show ended and everyone was
leaving an apparently immense ring of slow moving lights came  on
directly  over  the  Bridgeport  studio.    From  Bridgeport  the
formation of unusual lights moved over New Haven and into central
Conneticut, putting on a display seen by many hundreds of people.
I  saw  them  while on route 34 near New Haven and  watched  them
carefully as they moved over New Haven and then inland.
     The  display  lasted  approximately seven  minutes  from  my
position  and  very nearly caused several  accidents  as  drivers
pulled  over  to watch.   Alas,  it was not a UFO.   It  took  me
several  minutes,  bus as the formation turned over New Haven,  I
realized they must be aircraft.   There were eight of  them,  and
their precision was almost perfect until the turn.   Then four of
the  planes  drifted  slightly apart from the other  four  before
reforming.   The next day headlines throughout Conneticut  loudly
condemned   these  formation  flying  fools  for  nearly  causing
accidents  on highways throughout the state.   Demands were  made
for  an FAA investigation.   The pilots were  never  found.   The
origin  of  the  aircraft  remains a  mystery.   That  they  were
aircraft  is certain.   Paul Estefan,  administrator of  Danbury,
Conneticut  Municipal Airport,  dispatched a plane to  track  the
lights  and  the pilot tracked them to two airports in  New  York
state.  But Estefan refused to name the airports, saying that the
pilots had not really broken any laws.
     Was  it  rally  a coincidence that these  planes  put  on  a
display  that  began just as the Channel 12 show ended?   Was  it
really a coincidence that immediately after Lesnick and  Imbrogno
presented  the evidence of two years of solid investigation,  the
perfect and easily accepted explanation causally flew over?   Was
it  really a coincidence that this aircraft formation  flew  over
the  exact area where the TV show was being seen?   From years of
patient inquiry into the UFO phenomenon,  I can assure you it was
not.
     UFOs  have  profoundly  alarmed  those  at  high  levels  of
national  security in almost all of the countries of our  planet.
They  have effortlessly rendered ICBM sites  ineffective,  easily
evaded interception attempts by the most advanced aircraft of the
United  States  and  the  Soviet  Union,  destroyed  antiaircraft
missiles  launched at them with a technology far beyond our  own.
They  have,  at  the  same  time,  made  a  distinct  and  almost
mythological  impression on people throughout  the  world.   They
have not displayed overt hostility towards individuals,  have not
landed and disrupted our society and have shown no inclination to
do  so  as  yet.   We  may  evolve into  a  unified  world  which
peacefully moves out to explore our solar system,  our  universe.
In  such  a case,  UFOs may not make open and direct contact  for
hundreds  of  years.   It may take that long for  us  to  develop
socially  to the point where we would not be totally disturbed by
such  contact.   We may also attempt to violently commit  nuclear
suicide,  thereby poisoning our world,  and killing all lifeforms
on  our planet.   It would be a human decision.   In such a case,
somebody  may  come  down and take our  toys  away,  scolding  us
severely and imposing their own order upon us.
     In  reaching  these kinds of conclusions,  I feel  that  the
majority  of people in this country presently do not have a  firm
grasp  on the UFO reality.   Most simply avoid the subject.   The
avoidance maneuvers are varied:   scientists, in general, see the
UFO scene as a can of worms,  full of inconsistencies; the media,
especially  the  national media,  still treat  the  subject  with
tongue in cheek;  various authorities, from local police to those
up to and including the presidential personnel,  simply deny UFOs
or  explain them away as misidentification of man made or natural
phenomena.  A significant portion of the population treat UFOs in
a  semi  superstitious manner,  in much the  same  way  religious
prophecies  are treated.   It is important to realize that  these
attitudes  are not symptoms of a "planned coverup," at least  for
the  most  part.   Habitual attitudes such as these are more  the
symptoms of the cultural consensus "reality" within which we  all
usually function.
     The realities of our world are largely our own creation.  In
trying  to  understand that concept,  in trying to delineate  its
boundaries, we very often create that reality most comfortable to
ourselves  and  those  around us.   This  process  leads  to  the
cultural  consensus "reality" which most of us share and support.
UFOs,  as  yet,  have not been fully accepted into that  reality.
People often ask me "Do you believe in UFOs?"  My most consistent
reply is "No!  Do you believe in helicopters?"
     UFOs  are  a  reality not subject  to  our  belief  systems,
although   it  seems  they  have  initiated  numerous  "beliefs,"
"mythologies"  and even possibly "religions."  UFOs  exist.   The
evidence for that existence is now much too solid to deny.   That
evidence could be an underlying force behind our rapidly evolving
military technology.   Deep seated fears of what we label as  the
"unknown" may be a factor in our feverish arms race.   It is even
almost  comforting to realize that now,  as we peer off into  the
darkness of our self created position,  we could,  if unified, at
least  have  some  chance to "battle" those "dark forces  of  the
unknown."   Unfortunately,   those  "dark  forces"  are   largely
creations  of our own imaginations.   Alien invaders haven't  yet
arrived  to enslave us.   In fact,  I should imagine any advanced
life  form would be hesitant to try.   We are an  aggressive  and
pugnacious species and would make very poor slaves.
     The  human  race  is rapidly moving into an  age  where  the
nature of "reality" is changing every day.  We need to understand
that  we create and maintain that "kind" of reality where we  all
pretty  much agree on "how things are."  The ultimate reality  of
our  existence  is still very much of a mystery,  even  to  those
scientists  who specialize in exploring and defining it.   We are
part  of a matter/energy universe which is only now beginning  to
be somewhat understood.  Small particle physicists, those closest
to what we might call the "ultimate" reality,  readily admit that
at  this  stage of the game,  they can define our  universe  most
closely with only one word:  ineffable.  Science and religion are
now  beginning to find that they may well be exploring  the  same
ideas,  the only difference being in their approaches.   UFOs are
representative of a "reality" which also seems to be "ineffable."
     The actual appearance of UFOs to witnesses,  the evidence of
UFO  activity not only perceived by our senses but registered  on
our   technological  sensors,   is  overwhelming.    It  is  best
understood when viewed in a semantically clear fashion.  They are
here.  They are seen, tracked on radar, photographed, acted upon,
and display actions which are as yet poorly understood.  The data
available  on  UFOs indicates the presence of several  groups  or
"groupings"  of visitors from other worlds.   There  are  several
broad  common denominators of these groupings.   One of the  most
consistent  of  these  seems  to be a  gradual  and  periodically
reinforced  series of appearances,  labeled "UFO  waves."   These
appearances  do  not  take  place on  a  grand  scale;  likewise,
landings  and  flyovers  generally do not occur  at  the  capital
cities of the world.   We are not yet prepared to face a  culture
of  beings  as  far  ahead  of us as we  are  of  cave  dwellers.
Anthropological  studies  show  clear examples of  the  fates  of
primitive societies exposed to modern man.
     Another   common  denominator  of  UFO  activity  is   their
appearances  near  major military centers throughout  the  world.
These appearances are again periodic, almost on a "reinforcement"
schedule.  Often these appearances coincide with "demonstrations"
of   the   technological  ease  with  which  missile  bases   are
electronically    nullified,    interceptor    aircraft    easily
outdistanced,   antiaircraft   missiles  destroyed   at   launch.
Examples  of these kinds of incidents are coming more and more to
the public eye.
     Perhaps  it is time we started growing  up.   Our  visitors,
friendly or not,  certainly cannot afford to let us come swarming
off our planet armed and angry.  What would you do if you were up
there  looking down at a planet whose dominant lifeforms seem  to
be  preoccupied  making bigger,  better and deadlier  devices  to
either  kill  themselves  or  to keep  each  other  from  killing
themselves?   It  would  seem  our visitors have  been  extremely
patient.   Perhaps they can help.  Perhaps not.  Perhaps they are
angelic,  attempting to help only indirectly.   Perhaps they  are
demonic,  attempting  to  move us onnward  towards  "Armageddon."
Perhaps they are neither.
     Here  we sit,  our halos held up by our horns,  for the most
part  unaware of the real nature of our visitors.   Perhaps  that
nature is unimportant.   Perhaps more important is our perception
of their nature.   Perhaps,  just perhaps, we can help ourselves.
With the awareness that the universe is not our enemy, that it is
just  the  opposite,  we  might possibly move into  a  future  of
tremendous  potential.   We are growing up.   Hopefully we  shall
share  our movement into racial maturity with others who seem  to
have already evolved towards social and racial sanity.  Again, it
is our choice.  We are, after all, fairly intelligent, especially
when we're not chasing each other through the treetops.
                            ADDENDUM
     I finished this article and submitted it to PURSUIT in early
September  of  1985.   Since that time there have been two  clear
cases of the unknown object seen low over populated areas of  New
York  and Conneticut.   There was also a sharp rise in the number
of isolated reports of unusual lights in these months.   Most  of
these  reports could not be attributed to aircraft  activity.   A
summary  of  these  reports is given here;  it seems as  if  this
resurgence is a clear indication that his wave is not finished.
     The  first  incident  of note came to  light  through  Peter
Gersten's UFO Hotline.   On the evening of September  12th,  from
9:00  to  10:30 p.m.,  an unusually large number of reports  came
into the hotline.   All described an unusual object, studded with
lights,  low  over  New York City and surrounding areas  such  as
Yonkers and New Rochelle.   Some callers reported the "V"  shape.
Others  said  the lights varied in  their  appearance.    Several
callers  reported  that there was definitely a very large  object
involved  as the stars were occulted or blocked from view by  its
passage  overhead.   I listened to the report of one  woman  who,
along   with   her  husband,   saw  the  object  as   its   light
configurations  began to change.   Her report was  familiar;  the
process she described was almost exactly the same as that seen by
the  woman I interviewed in Goshen,  CT.   The media did not make
much comment on this activity.  Channel 7 News at 11:00 p.m. that
night mentioned unusual lights seen over the New York City area.
     The  second incident involving large numbers of  people  was
one I investigated personally.    On the evening of October 17th,
1985,  an  estimated two thousand witnesses saw the object as  it
appeared over Bridgeport,  Fairfield and Danbury, Conneticut.  As
it moved over these towns it was seen,  by separate witnesses, to
"change  shape" from a "V" to a straight line and back to a  "V."
The witnesses,  some of them police officers,  again referred  to
rows  of large lights that defined the shape of the  object.   It
moved  very  slowly,  rotated  on its axis and  accelerated  very
rapidly.   It  was described as "larger than an airliner  at  low
altitude" by witnesses I interviewed.  Visiting the Fairfield and
Bridgeport,  CT police departments, I found that there had been a
very large number of calls that night from people concerned about
the object.
     I decided to call the hotline and put my findings on record.
The  hotline,  established  more than a year ago,  was  a  direct
result  of  UFO  activity  in  the  area  and  received  reports,
replaying  some of the more dramatic ones for several days.   The
report  from the night of the 17th was recorded on the  19th  and
played back on the 20th and the 22nd.  It gives a clearer idea of
the nature and magnitude of the incident:
     Thursday,  October 17th -- "V" shaped white,  red, green and
blue lights were first seen over Main Street,  Bridgeport,  CT at
approximately  8:35 p.m.   The "lights" moved slowly north to the
area of St.  Vincent's hospital,  stopped,  hovered for three  to
five  minutes,  then rapidly accelerated away to the  north.   It
apparently  turned  to the east and was next seen  hovering  over
Fairfield  University,  Fairfield from 8:45 to 8:55  p.m.   Again
stopped,  hovered,  "V"  unfolded  to  straight  line.   Altitude
verified at less than one thousand feet by "trigging out" witness
positions  and  angles of observation.   All witnesses agree  the
size  of  the  display was larger than  a  jet  airliner.   After
hovering over Fairfield,  while viewed by police officers, object
rotated  on its own axis and moved away.   Reports came  in  from
Trumbull, Monroe and then Danbury.  Shortly after 9:00 p.m., over
Danbury,  police  chief  John P.  Basile saw it with over  thirty
other witnesses.   Also seen over Bethel and New Fairfield  areas
and  then  Candlewood  Lake.    Articles  on  page  four  of  the
Bridgeport  Telegram of Friday,  October 18th and page 13 of  the
Danbury News-Times of the same date.   Approximately thirty calls
to the Bridgeport Police Department,  approximately three hundred
calls  to  the  Fairfield Police Department,  calls also  to  the
Danbury police,  local radio stations and newspapers.   Estimated
number of witnesses, two thousand."
     There  can  be no doubt that something unknown  is  evident.
Other reports that came to my attention were as follows:
     September 11th,  1985:  Single witness, female, reports that
while walking dog in Trumbull,  CT at 11:30 p.m., saw large group
of  red  lights  moving low over position from  north  to  south.
Reported by personal acquaintance.
October  7th,  1985:   A Bridgeport fireman,  thirty  years  old,
while  bicycling  from  Bridgeport to  Florida  (local  newspaper
coverage)  reports  seeing low flying "V" shaped object  followed
closely  by several military helicopters.   Witness reports  that
this was near the coast of Virginia, about 9:00 to 10:00 p.m. and
object and choppers moving south to north.   Reported by personal
acquaintance.
October 16th,  1985:   Two witnesses, female, report seeing a "V"
shaped object low over beach near West Haven,  CT,  between 11:30
and 12:00 p.m.   Report also cites "mild sunburn" as a result  of
"being  under the thing."  Interviewed one witness by  telephone,
unable to followup and clarify "sunburn" aspect.
     What  we have been calling the "Westchester Wing"  continues
to  be seen.   Its appearances continue to frame questions of its
origin and purpose.   We all,  each in our own way,  have much to
learn in probing for answers.

--EOF --

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: Ohio UFO Sightings part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 19:34:48 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 784
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2198 alt.conspiracy:7685 sci.skeptic:15654




----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------



                     Mutual UFO Network - Sighting Report
                   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Log # 890602 - Event 10/21/78, Dayton, OH: duration 3 minutes.  Lead
investigator David Miller.  At 3 PM, a man (licensed pilot) was working in
his yard when he noticed a chrome-like ball at high altitude which crossed
existing vapor trails, transformed to a flat-white, stopped, transformed to
grey, then accelerated vertically through cirrus clouds.  [Note:  As
indicated by the witness, a local TV station reported other concurrent
observations.]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Mutual UFO Network - Sighting Report
                   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Log # 890603 - Event 1/18/89, Somerville, OH: duration 2 hours.  Lead
investigator Dick Seifreid.  At 3:57 AM, a man (retired USAF noncom) was
awakened by his barking dog.  Looking out, he observed three oval-shapes over
trees bordering the property 50 yards away.  He woke his wife and two
adolescent children. The family watched for most of two hours as the objects
moved low over nearby farm buildings and land.  They displayed various bright
colors (amber, red, green, blue and white) which covered the surfaces from an
apparent belt or lights on each.  At one point, the father and son engaged in
a chase with their auto before losing sight of them.  Shortly thereafter, two
of the objects returned over an adjacent field before departing again.
[Note:  The family subsequently reported a recurrence in the early morning
hours of 1/27/89.]

------------------------------------------------------------------------


 Report #: 209
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 01-18-1987
  Subject: CLEVELAND, OH.

CASE TYPE:  LRS - NL
     DATE:  26 OCTOBER 1986
     TIME:  1800 HOURS
     CFN#:  0331
 DURATION:  UNKNOWN
WITNESSES:  TWO
   SOURCE:  PLAIN DEALER, CLEVELAND, OH.
----------------------------------------

PLAIN DEALER, Cleveland, OH - Oct. 27,
1986  CR: B. Robbins/COUD-I

Explosion over lake reported; search on

  Two Coast Guard boats searched last night for debris after two people said
they saw an explosion over Lake Erie, off Euclid.

  About 6 p.m. a resident of Euclid high-rise near E. 260th St. reported
seeing an explosion in the air over the lake.  The woman said she saw smoke
and debris falling into the lake.

  Coast Guard officials called Federal Aviation Administration controllers and
airports last night to see whether any planes had been reported missing.  None
were.

  An official at the Cuyahoga County Airport in Richmond Heights also reported
seeing a bright light descending from the sky about the same time, the Coast
Guard said.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 01-27-91  13:23
From: Luke Domet
To:   All
Subj: sightings

 While on the subject of sightings, I have an interesting account that to
this day I cannot explain...

 It was around mid January, 1988 on a cold clear night. I was driving down
state route 52 in ohio along the ohio river just past Moscow, Ohio. The road
was turning to the left slightly and as I proceded I could see a huge object
lit up in the sky just behind the tree line on the left. I am not too good
with drawing a picture with words so bear with me. The object had to have
been pretty close to the ground. (1000ft.?) it was triangle shaped, white
lights lit up the whole bottom of it with colored lights on the sides. When I
saw it, it was stationary pretty far ahead of me just to the left of the
road. I wasn't quite sure it was stationary right when I first saw it so I
sped up to try and catch up with it. As I got closer I then could see it
clearly. It was hovering in over a field, just to the left of the road. Right
as I got to the edge of the field (right where it began to run along side of
the road) my radio started getting static and the station numbers got dim on
the digital display. Then when I hit my breaks to slow down as not to pass it
too fast, my headlights dimmed like they were losing power. Within 10 seconds
my entire car went out on me. I had to roll to the side of the road. My
hazards barely worked, my radio wouldn't turn on. As I was rolling to the
side of the road, the object lifted almost straight into the air and cut a
90degree turn behing the tree line. My car had to be towed because it
wouldn't start. The car was a '86 Honda Accord, only two years old at the
time and it had just been serviced about a month prior. When I had it checked
out nothing was found wrong. They ended up replacing the battery just to be
sure though. I still don't know if this was a coincidence or not.

 Luke

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15-Nov-89 17:21
From: Dale Wedge
To:   All
Subj: ALLEDGED UFO LANDING IN OHIO

AN ALLEDGED UFO MEASURING 46 FEET IN DIAMETER LANDED IN
THE YARD OF A MILLERSBURG, OHIO RESIDENTS YARD ON MONDAY
OR TUESDAY (NOV 13 - 14), 1989.  MILLERSBURG IS LOCATED
IN HOLMES COUNTY IS IS SOUTHEAST OF CLEVELAND, OHIO
AND NORTEAST OF COLUMBUS, OHIO.
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT RESPONDED AND TOOK PROPER
MEASUREMENTS.  FROM WHAT IS KNOWN, THE SITE ALSO SHOWS
FOUR INDENTATIONS IN THE SOIL AND SOME COMPACTTION FROM
THE WEIGHT.  IT IS NOT KNOWN IF THE SITE WAS SURVEYED FOR
RADIATION.  THIS INFORMATION WAS PASSED ON TO MUFON STATE
DIRECTOR FOR FURTHER INVESTIGATION.
THE HOLMES COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT ADVISED THAT THEY
CALLED WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE AND ASKED FOR ASSIS-
TANCE ON THIS CASE.  IT IS NOT KNOWN AT THIS TIME IF ANY-
ONE HAS RESPONDED FROM THE AIR BASE.
IF ANYONE ELSE HAS SEEN ANY INFORMATION ON THIS THROUGH
THE MEDIA OR BY UPLOAD TO ANY BOARDS, PLEASE EITHER LEAVE
ME E-MAIL HERE OR YOU MAY CALL ME AT MY PHONE NUMBER:
DALE B. WEDGE
216-285-9408
REMEMBER, I LIVE ON THE EAST COAST FOR YOU WEST COAST PEOPLE.
THERE HAS ALSO BEEN A REPORT THAT THERE WAS A SIGHTING AND/
OR PERHAPS A LANDING IN INDIANA AROUND THE SAME TIME.
WE (MUFON STATE SECTION DIRECTORS OF N.E. OHIO) WERE
CALLED BY A LOCAL TV PERSONALITY WHO CLAIMED THAT
HE SAW WHAT WAS REPORTED IN INDIANA DURING THIS WEEK.
IF ANYONE HAS INFO ON THIS ALLEDGED SHTING/LANDING,
ALSO PLEASE LEAVE MAIL OCALL.
DALE B. WEDGE
SORRY ABOUT THE TYPOS, WE ARE HAVING A LIGHTNING STORM.

----------------------------------------------------------------------


COG:          INFO                                       COPIES

CPC           DCS DGP DPA B M O OLE OSR                     9

FP D9AW
D9 AW DE FP
ISN-FP021
P 051405Z MAR 88
FM COGARD STA FAIRPORT OH//CO//
TO AW/COMCOGARDGRU DETROIT MI//OPS//
INFO D9/CCGDNINE CLEVELAND OH//OSR//
BT
UNCLAS //N16144//
SUBJ: INCIDENT REPORT: UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS
1. UNIDENTIFIABLE FLYING OBJECTS 1/4 MILE EAST OF CEI POWER PLANT.
2. AT 2035 LCL THIS STATION RCVD A CALL FROM
[Name blanked by MUFON investigators] RPTNG A LARGE OBJECT HOVERING OVER
THE LAKE AND APPARENTLY ON A SLOW DECENT. THE OBJECT HAD A WHITE LIGHT AND
WAS APPROX. 1/4 MILE UP. [Blanked] WAS UNABLE TO DETERMINE HOW FAR OUT IT
WAS. THIS UNIT SENT 2 CREWMEMBERS TO INVESTIGATE. BEFORE THEY ARRIVED O/S,
WE RCVD 2 MORE CALLS RPTNG THAT THE OBJECT HAD APPARENTLY DISPERSED 3-5
SMALLER FLYING OBJECTS THAT WERE ZIPPING AROUND RATHER QUICKLY. THESE
OBJECTS HAD RED, GREEN, WHITE AND YELLOW LIGHTS ON THEM THAT STROBED
INTERMITTENTLY. THEY ALSO HAD THE ABILITY TO STOP AND HOVER IN MID-FLIGHT.
WHEN MOBILE 02 GO O/S, THEY RPTD THE SAME ACTIVITY. THEY WATCHED THE
OBJECTS FOR APPROX. 1 HOUR BEFORE RPTNG THAT THE LARGE OBJECT WAS ALMOST
ON THE ICE. THEY RPTD THAT THE ICE WAS CRACKING AND MOVING ABNORMAL
AMOUNTS AS THE OBJECT CAME CLOSER TO IT. THE ICE WAS RUMBLING AND THE
OBJECT LIT MULTI-COLOR LIGHTS AT EACH END AS IT APPARENTLY LANDED. THE
;LIGHTS ON IT WENT OUT MOMENTARILY AND THEN CAME ON AGAIN. THEY WENT OUT
AGAIN AND THE RUMBLING STOPPED AND THE ICE STOPPED MOVING. THE SMALLER
OBJECTS BEGAN HOVERING IN THE AREA WHERE THE LARGE OBJECT LANDED AND AFTER
A FEW MINUTES THEY BEGAN FLYING AROUND AGAIN. MOBILE 02 RPTD THAT THEY
APPEARED TO BE SCOUTING THE AREA. MOBILE 02 RPTD THAT 1 OBJECT WAS MOVING
TOWARD THEM AT A HIGH SPEED AND LOW TO THE ICE. MOBILE 02 BACKED DOWN THE
HILL THEY HAD BEEN ON AND WHEN THEY WENT BACK TO THE HILL, THE OBJECT WAS
GONE. THEY RPTD THAT THE OBJECTS COULD NOT BE SEEN IF THEY TURNED OFF
THERE LIGHTS. ONE OF THE SMALL OBJECTS TURNED ON A SPOTLIGHT WHERE THE
LARGE OBJECT HAD BEEN BUT MOBILE 02 COULD NOT SEE ANYTHING, AND THEN THE
OBJECT SEEMED TO DISAPPEAR. ANOTHER OBJECT APPROACHED MOBILE 02 APPROX.
500 YDS. OFFSHORE ABOUT 20 FT. ABOVE THE ICE, AND IT BEGAN MOVING CLOSER
AS MOBILE 02 BEGAN FLASHING ITS HEADLIGHTS, THEN IT MOVED OFF TO THE WEST.
3. THE CREWMEMBERS WERE UNABLE TO IDENTIFY ANY OF THE OBJECTS USING
BINOCULARS AND AFTER CONTACTING LOCAL POLICE AND AIRPORTS, THIS UNIT WAS
UNABLE TO IDENTIFY THE OBJECTS, AND RECALLED MOBILE 02.
BT
TOR-03:05:14:44



 COGARD STA FAIRPORT OH//CO//                       P 051405Z MAR 88   /LB

---------------------------------------------------------------------


File: LAKERIE.UFO  13868-T
      02-APR-88
 Dir: 12  Sec: 1 - UFOlogy
From: Rick Dell'aquila
 Acc: 9

LAKE ERIE UFO: Investigative Report



                             N.E. OHIO FLAP
                       by Richard P. Dell'Aquila

         Richard P. Dell'Aquila and Dale B. Wedge, MUFON State Section
Directors for Cuyahoga, Lake, Geauga and Ashtabula Counties (Ohio)
have been investigating a series of sightings, beginning about March
4, 1988 and seemingly centered around the Perry Nuclear Plant, and the
CEI coal burning plant at Eastlake, both on the shore of Lake Erie,
east of Cleveland, Ohio.
         March 4th was a clear, crisp night and the stars were clearly
visible, especially to the north over the lake where there are no city
lights.  Venus and Jupiter were bright and in close proximity to each
other in the western sky.  At about 6:30 P.M., S.B. (name and address
provided to MUFON) and her children were driving home to Eastlake
along the lake shore when they observed a large blimp-like object with
bright white lights at each end, hovering over the lake and rocking
end to end like a "teeter-totter."  One light was brighter than the
other and was strobing.  On arriving home, she asked her husband to
accompany her to the beach about 200 yards north for a closer view of
the object which they later described as "larger than a football held
at arm's length."
         She and her husband walked onto the beach.  The noiseless
object was gun metal gray and seemed to cause the ice on the lake to
rumble and crack loudly in an unusual way which frightened her.  The
witnesses had to shout to be heard by each other, and were surprised
that no dogs were out barking as would have been expected.
         After observing the object for a while, the couple became
concerned for the safety of their children in the car when the object
revolved slowly about 90 degrees, coming almost overhead (about 1/4
mile high) and pointing its "front" end down toward them.  They drove
the children home and continued watching the object from their living
room window which faces the lake.  A neighbor was phoned and she and
her son went to the beach, reporting the same thing.  They took
photographs which did not turn out.
         The object began to descend and the witnesses returned to the
beach, where it was now observed to have red and blue blinking lights
along its bottom edge.  It emitted 5 or 6 noiseless, intensly bright
yellow triangular lights from its side.  They intermittently hovered
around the larger object, darted and zig-zagged into the night sky at
velocities far in excess of known aircraft.  Mr. B stated the
triangular objects were smaller than a one-seat Cessna and "crossed 50
mile stretches low over the ice in the snap of a finger."  They were
said to be able to approach the shore, turn abrupt right angles due
east toward the Perry Nuclear Plant about 12 miles away, climbing
rapidly and returning again, all within several seconds.  By this
time, a Coast Guard patrol vehicle had arrived on the beach in
response to S.B.'s several phone calls.
         The triangular objects came closer to the shore, causing the
witnesses to become concerned that the lights on the Coast Guard
vehicle would attract the objects and the lights were turned off.  The
triangles continued to fly off at high speed northward over the lake
and eastward toward the Perry Nuclear Plant.  About an hour later,
they returned one at a time into the large ship, which then landed on
the ice.  Several multi-colored lights now came on for about 5 minutes

                             (Page 1 of 3)
on the bottom of the object "in a wave like a movie theater sign" and
the brighter white light on the end began strobing red and white.
When these went off, the ice stopped making noise and everything
became "dead silent."  The object could no longer be seen within about
a half hour and it was assumed to have gone below the surface.  The
next day, unusually huge pieces of broken ice were observed in the
area of the landing.
         The Coast Guard informed Mr. and Mrs. B the following day
that the Army and NASA, whom S.B. had also phoned, instructed them not
to investigate the matter further or go out on the lake in their
cutter to examine the ice in the area of the landing, since the matter
was "out of their league and out of their hands."  They informed the
couple that all information was being forwarded to Wright-Patterson
Air Force Base and a facility in Detroit, Michigan.  In response to a
Coast Guard inquiry, Wright-Patterson refused to confirm or deny any
interest in these activities.
         On the next night, the same witnesses observed several
triangular objects over the lake for about 45 minutes.  By the time
Coast Guard personnel arrived on the scene, the objects were gone.
         On March 7, 1988, the Cleveland Plain Dealer and Lake County
News-Herald carried articles which attributed a series of reports of
large brightly lit objects over Lake Erie on the prior weekend to
several witnesses' misidentification of the planets Venus and Jupiter.
The newspaper accounts indicated that the Fairport Harbor Coast Guard
went to the area and saw a large bright object that seemed to dispurse
smaller, bright multi-colored objects.  But when they called the local
air traffic controllers, they were "informed" that Jupiter and Venus
were in alignment and that the colors were the result of "spontaneous
gas emissions from the two planets."  One article even attributed this
amazing explanation to a professor of astronomy at a local university.
         On reading the articles, Dell'Aquila felt it was unlikely
that U.S. Coast Guard personnel, trained in navigation and
identification of basic celestial objects such as the planets, could
have made such a gross misidentification.  Likewise, the statement
attributed to the professor of astronomy was equally unacceptable, in
that no other similar "spontaneous gas emission" from the planets
cited, of the necessary magnitude, had ever been noted, particulary on
this weekend.
         In the course of the follow-up investigation by Dell'Aquila
and Wedge, a Coast Guard incident report was found (presently in
MUFON's possession) which states that Coast Guard personnel responded
to several calls reporting UFOs over Lake Erie on the night of March
4, 1988.  When the Coast Guard arrived, the report confirms that a
large object "dispersed 3-5 smaller flying objects that were zipping
around rather quickly.  These objects had red, green white, and yellow
lights on them that strobed intermittently.  They also had the ability
to stop and hover in mid-flight."  The incident report confirms Mr.
and Mrs. B's reports, including the abnormal cracking of the ice as
the object came closer to it and apparently landed.  "The smaller
objects began hovering in the area where the large object landed
(about 1/4 mile east of the CEI power plant) and after a few minutes
they began flying around again."  The report states that, "One of the
small objects turned on a spotlight where the large object had been,
but [the Coast Guard personnel] could not see anything, and then the
object seemed to disappear.  Another object approached [these
personnel] approximately 500 yards offshore about 20 feet above the
ice, and it began moving closer as [the Coast Guard] began flashing
its headlights, then it moved off to the west."

                             (Page 2 of 3)
         A subsequent Coast Guard report (also in possession of MUFON)
prepared after the sightings of the following night attributes the
sightings to misidentifications of the planets Venus and Jupiter and
says, "the flashing lights are gases in the atmosphere...Request
incident closed this unit."  In response to a classified advertisement
placed by the investigators, other witnesses contacted Dell'Aquila and
Wedge, and have been interviewed as the investigation continues.
         On the same night (March 4th) at about 10:00 P.M., and
continuing until approximately 10:30 P.M., C.H. (name and address
provided to MUFON) also reported a UFO near her home, which is a few
miles south of the lake shore and just east of the Perry Nuclear
Plant.  C.H. was walking a puppy when she noticed the stationary
triangular object in the southeasterly sky.  It was much brighter than
the moon, and seemed to upset the puppy, which she took back indoors.
Returning outdoors, she reported that the object began sequentially
flashing multi-colored lights, suspended in rows below the base of the
triangle.  The witness responded by flashing her cigarette lighter and
the UFO's light pattern became more erratic.  At one point, the
triangle revolved clockwise, turning its apex about 90 degrees to a
horizontal position, but still flashing the rows of light.  After
several minutes, it turned back counter-clockwise as it simultaneously
accelerated away to the south at a high rate of speed, disappearing
behind some trees.  No noise or odor was reported.
         At about 10:30 P.M. that night T.K. (name and address
provided to MUFON), took a photograph in his back yard, within a few
miles of the Perry Nuclear Plant, showing a portion of a brightly lit
triangular object travelling across the sky (Photograph in possession
of MUFON).  This object was later confirmed by Mr. and Mrs. B and C.H.
to be identical to the triangular objects they were also observing
about the same time a few miles away, and is also similar to one
reported to Phil Imbrogno as having been near the Indian Point Nuclear
Power Plant in New York State on the same night.
         T.K. and his friend were outdoors on the night of March 4th,
observing the stars through his telescope.  Venus and Jupiter were
reported to be in the western sky behind a stand of trees.  While
looking southward through the telescope, out of the corner of his left
eye, T.K. noticed a bright, moving object in the sky.  He and his
friend were awe-struck by the triangular object, but he did have the
presence of mind to take 3 photographs with a small "snapshot" type
camera loaded with Kodak 110 color film, with which they had intended
to photograph stars through the telescope.  Only one photograph
turned out.  It is the last in the series, taken while
panning ahead of the object, and shows the front portion of the
triangle.  The object was described as about 3-4 inches tall at arm's
length and glowing an intense yellow/orange to white, with a bright
orange/red glow behind it.  It seemed to pulse brighter and dimmer,
moving in a roughly southwesterly direction until it was obscured by
trees.  As it moved, it accelerated, slowed and accelerated again.  No
sound or smell was noted, although his dog had a strong reaction,
running in circles and tugging on T.K.'s sleeve, apparently in an
attempt to urge him away from the object.  Total time of observation
was a few minutes.
         Dell'Aquila and Wedge continue to receive reports of
additional UFOs over the same period, some supported by photographs,
as the sightings continue to the date of this writing.  Supplementary
reports will be provided as the investigation of the flap progresses.


------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Cleveland Plain Dealer
Monday, March 7, 1988
--------------------------

COZYING OF JUPITER, VENUS LIGHT UP SKY

      Reports of unidentified flying objects are being made, and the most
likely explanation is the rare alignment of Jupiter and Venus.
      Some Fairport Harbor residents reported seeing UFOs and large bright
objects hovering over Lake Erie over the weekend.
      The Fairport Harbor Coast Guard went to the area and saw a large
bright object that seemed to disperse smaller, brightly colored objects.
But when they called the Greater Cleveland air traffic controllers, they
learned that Jupiter and Venus were in alignment and that the colors were
the result of spontaneous gas emissions from the two planets.
      Its the celestial equivalent of a colorful floor show, says Charles
B. Stephenson, a professor of astronomy at Case Western Reserve
University.
      The Earth's atmosphere helps create the color sensation, in the same
way that distant stars appear to twinkle.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

File: LAKERIE3.UFO  1210-T
      02-APR-88 (L)
 Dir: 12  Sec: 1 - UFOlogy
From: Rick Dell'Aquile
 Acc: 8


The News-Herald
Monday, March 7, 1988
----------------------

SKY-GAZERS MISTAKE PLANETS FOR UFOS

      Visitors from another planet have nothing to do with the UFOs which
were reported along the lake shore Friday and Saturday nights. But,
according to the Coast Guard, the planets Jupiter and Venus are involved.
      When the US Coast Guard at Fairport Harbor received reports Friday
night of UFOs in the sky, it checked with area airports to learn what
their radar indicated.
      "We thought it might be someone in trouble setting off flares," said
Petty Officer John Knaub. "So we investigated ourselves."
      Coast Guard members saw the lights over the lake about 1/4 mile east
of the mouth of the Chagrin River. "But Lost Nation Airport advised us
that we were seeing the planets Jupiter and Venus, which are lined up
together in the sky. Apparently the gases in the atmosphere created the
appearance of smaller objects around them."
      The UFO reports rolled in again Saturday night, when the sky
remained clear and was dominated by a full moon.
      Knaub said the phenomena is visible around 9PM, as skygazers look
west along the lake from Fairport Harbor.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------


File: LAKERIE4.UFO  2717-T
      02-APR-88 (L)
 Dir: 6  Sec: 1 - UFOlogy
From: Rick Dell'Aquila
 Acc: 8

LAKE ERIE UFO: First Coast Guard Report


COG:          INFO                                       COPIES

CPC           DCS DGP DPA B M O OLE OSR                     9

FP D9AW
D9 AW DE FP
ISN-FP021
P 051405Z MAR 88
FM COGARD STA FAIRPORT OH//CO//
TO AW/COMCOGARDGRU DETROIT MI//OPS//
INFO D9/CCGDNINE CLEVELAND OH//OSR//
BT
UNCLAS //N16144//
SUBJ: INCIDENT REPORT: UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS
1. UNIDENTIFIABLE FLYING OBJECTS 1/4 MILE EAST OF CEI POWER PLANT.
2. AT 2035 LCL THIS STATION RCVD A CALL FROM
[Name blanked by MUFON investigators] RPTNG A LARGE OBJECT HOVERING OVER
THE LAKE AND APPARENTLY ON A SLOW DECENT. THE OBJECT HAD A WHITE LIGHT AND
WAS APPROX. 1/4 MILE UP. [Blanked] WAS UNABLE TO DETERMINE HOW FAR OUT IT
WAS. THIS UNIT SENT 2 CREWMEMBERS TO INVESTIGATE. BEFORE THEY ARRIVED O/S,
WE RCVD 2 MORE CALLS RPTNG THAT THE OBJECT HAD APPARENTLY DISPERSED 3-5
SMALLER FLYING OBJECTS THAT WERE ZIPPING AROUND RATHER QUICKLY. THESE
OBJECTS HAD RED, GREEN, WHITE AND YELLOW LIGHTS ON THEM THAT STROBED
INTERMITTENTLY. THEY ALSO HAD THE ABILITY TO STOP AND HOVER IN MID-FLIGHT.
WHEN MOBILE 02 GO O/S, THEY RPTD THE SAME ACTIVITY. THEY WATCHED THE
OBJECTS FOR APPROX. 1 HOUR BEFORE RPTNG THAT THE LARGE OBJECT WAS ALMOST
ON THE ICE. THEY RPTD THAT THE ICE WAS CRACKING AND MOVING ABNORMAL
AMOUNTS AS THE OBJECT CAME CLOSER TO IT. THE ICE WAS RUMBLING AND THE
OBJECT LIT MULTI-COLOR LIGHTS AT EACH END AS IT APPARENTLY LANDED. THE
;LIGHTS ON IT WENT OUT MOMENTARILY AND THEN CAME ON AGAIN. THEY WENT OUT
AGAIN AND THE RUMBLING STOPPED AND THE ICE STOPPED MOVING. THE SMALLER
OBJECTS BEGAN HOVERING IN THE AREA WHERE THE LARGE OBJECT LANDED AND AFTER
A FEW MINUTES THEY BEGAN FLYING AROUND AGAIN. MOBILE 02 RPTD THAT THEY
APPEARED TO BE SCOUTING THE AREA. MOBILE 02 RPTD THAT 1 OBJECT WAS MOVING
TOWARD THEM AT A HIGH SPEED AND LOW TO THE ICE. MOBILE 02 BACKED DOWN THE
HILL THEY HAD BEEN ON AND WHEN THEY WENT BACK TO THE HILL, THE OBJECT WAS
GONE. THEY RPTD THAT THE OBJECTS COULD NOT BE SEEN IF THEY TURNED OFF
THERE LIGHTS. ONE OF THE SMALL OBJECTS TURNED ON A SPOTLIGHT WHERE THE
LARGE OBJECT HAD BEEN BUT MOBILE 02 COULD NOT SEE ANYTHING, AND THEN THE
OBJECT SEEMED TO DISAPPEAR. ANOTHER OBJECT APPROACHED MOBILE 02 APPROX.
500 YDS. OFFSHORE ABOUT 20 FT. ABOVE THE ICE, AND IT BEGAN MOVING CLOSER
AS MOBILE 02 BEGAN FLASHING ITS HEADLIGHTS, THEN IT MOVED OFF TO THE WEST.
3. THE CREWMEMBERS WERE UNABLE TO IDENTIFY ANY OF THE OBJECTS USING
BINOCULARS AND AFTER CONTACTING LOCAL POLICE AND AIRPORTS, THIS UNIT WAS
UNABLE TO IDENTIFY THE OBJECTS, AND RECALLED MOBILE 02.
BT
TOR-03:05:14:44



 COGARD STA FAIRPORT OH//CO//                       P 051405Z MAR 88   /LB

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


File: LAKERIE5.UFO  1474-T
      02-APR-88 (L)
 Dir: 6  Sec: 1 - UFOlogy
From: Rick Dell'Aquila
 Acc: 7

LAKE ERIE UFO: Second Coast Guard Report


COG:          INFO                                       COPIES

CPC           DCS DGP DPA B M O OLE OSR                     9

FP D9AW
D9 AW DE FP
ISN-FP024
P 060150Z MAR 88
FM COGARD STA FAIRPORT OH//CO//
TO AW/COMCOGARDGRU DETROIT MI//OPS//
INFO D9/CCGDNINE CLEVELAND OH//OSR//
BT
UNCLAS //N16144//
SUBJ: INCIDENT REPORT: UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS
1. UNIDENTIFIABLE FLYING OBJECTS 1/4 MILE EAST OF CEI POWER PLANT.
2. AT 1913 LCL THIS STATION RCVD CALL FROM [Name blanked by investigators]
RPTNG A LARGE OBJECT HOVERING OVER THE LAKE AT A GREATER ALTITUDE THAN
LAST NIGHT. AT 1923 LCL THIS STATION CALLED LOST NATION AIRPORT
(WILLOUGHBY OHIO). THEY STATED HEAVY AIR TRAFFIC THIS EVENING. THE RUNWAY
(23) THAT THEY ARE USING RUNS NORTH-SOUTH. THIS STATION SENT MOBILE 02
WITH 03 PERSONS TO INVESTIGATE. UPON ARRIVING ON SEEN THERE WERE NEGATIVE
SIGHTINGS. EAST LAKE POLICE SENT A PATROL CAR TO INVESTIGATE ALSO NEGATIVE
SIGHTINGS. MOBILE 02 IS GOING TO BE ON THE BEACH TO INVESTIGATE FURTHER.
3. UPON FURTHER INVESTIGATION THIS STATION CALLED LOST NATIONS AIRPORT
AGAIN AND TALKED TO [blanked] IN THE CONTROL TOWER. [blanked] INFORMED US
THAT THE TWO BRIGHT LIGHTS ARE THE PLANETS VENUS AND JUPITER. THE FLASHING
LIGHTS ARE GASES IN THE ATMOSPHERE. THE PLANETS SHOULD BE SETTING ABOUT
2130 LCL.
4. REQUEST INCIDENT CLOSED THIS UNIT.
BT
TOR-03:06:02:00



COGARD STA FAIRPORT OH//CO//               P 060150Z MAR 88 ZDS / SG


---------------------------------------------------------------------------


                             N.E. OHIO FLAP
                       by Richard P. Dell'Aquila

         Richard P. Dell'Aquila and Dale B. Wedge, MUFON State Section
Directors for Cuyahoga, Lake, Geauga and Ashtabula Counties (Ohio)
have been investigating a series of sightings, beginning about March
4, 1988 and seemingly centered around the Perry Nuclear Plant, and the
CEI coal burning plant at Eastlake, both on the shore of Lake Erie,
east of Cleveland, Ohio.
         March 4th was a clear, crisp night and the stars were clearly
visible, especially to the north over the lake where there are no city
lights.  Venus and Jupiter were bright and in close proximity to each
other in the western sky.  At about 6:30 P.M., S.B. (name and address
provided to MUFON) and her children were driving home to Eastlake
along the lake shore when they observed a large blimp-like object with
bright white lights at each end, hovering over the lake and rocking
end to end like a "teeter-totter."  One light was brighter than the
other and was strobing.  On arriving home, she asked her husband to
accompany her to the beach about 200 yards north for a closer view of
the object which they later described as "larger than a football held
at arm's length."
         She and her husband walked onto the beach.  The noiseless
object was gun metal gray and seemed to cause the ice on the lake to
rumble and crack loudly in an unusual way which frightened her.  The
witnesses had to shout to be heard by each other, and were surprised
that no dogs were out barking as would have been expected.
         After observing the object for a while, the couple became
concerned for the safety of their children in the car when the object
revolved slowly about 90 degrees, coming almost overhead (about 1/4
mile high) and pointing its "front" end down toward them.  They drove
the children home and continued watching the object from their living
room window which faces the lake.  A neighbor was phoned and she and
her son went to the beach, reporting the same thing.  They took
photographs which did not turn out.
        The object began to descend and the witnesses returned to the
beach, where it was now observed to have red and blue blinking lights
along its bottom edge.  It emitted 5 or 6 noiseless, intensly bright
yellow triangular lights from its side.  They intermittently hovered
around the larger object, darted and zig-zagged into the night sky at
velocities far in excess of known aircraft.  Mr. B stated the
triangular objects were smaller than a one-seat Cessna and "crossed 50
mile stretches low over the ice in the snap of a finger."  They were
said to be able to approach the shore, turn abrupt right angles due
east toward the Perry Nuclear Plant about 12 miles away, climbing
rapidly and returning again, all within several seconds.  By this
time, a Coast Guard patrol vehicle had arrived on the beach in
response to S.B.'s several phone calls.
         The triangular objects came closer to the shore, causing the
witnesses to become concerned that the lights on the Coast Guard
vehicle would attract the objects and the lights were turned off.  The
triangles continued to fly off at high speed northward over the lake
and eastward toward the Perry Nuclear Plant.  About an hour later,
they returned one at a time into the large ship, which then landed on
the ice.  Several multi-colored lights now came on for about 5 minutes

                             (Page 1 of 3)
on the bottom of the object "in a wave like a movie theater sign" and
the brighter white light on the end began strobing red and white.
When these went off, the ice stopped making noise and everything
became "dead silent."  The object could no longer be seen within about
a half hour and it was assumed to have gone below the surface.  The
next day, unusually huge pieces of broken ice were observed in the
area of the landing.
         The Coast Guard informed Mr. and Mrs. B the following day
that the Army and NASA, whom S.B. had also phoned, instructed them not
to investigate the matter further or go out on the lake in their
cutter to examine the ice in the area of the landing, since the matter
was "out of their league and out of their hands."  They informed the
couple that all information was being forwarded to Wright-Patterson
Air Force Base and a facility in Detroit, Michigan.  In response to a
Coast Guard inquiry, Wright-Patterson refused to confirm or deny any
interest in these activities.
         On the next night, the same witnesses observed several
triangular objects over the lake for about 45 minutes.  By the time
Coast Guard personnel arrived on the scene, the objects were gone.
         On March 7, 1988, the Cleveland Plain Dealer and Lake County
News-Herald carried articles which attributed a series of reports of
large brightly lit objects over Lake Erie on the prior weekend to
several witnesses' misidentification of the planets Venus and Jupiter.
The newspaper accounts indicated that the Fairport Harbor Coast Guard
went to the area and saw a large bright object that seemed to dispurse
smaller, bright multi-colored objects.  But when they called the local
air traffic controllers, they were "informed" that Jupiter and Venus
were in alignment and that the colors were the result of "spontaneous
gas emissions from the two planets."  One article even attributed this
amazing explanation to a professor of astronomy at a local university.
         On reading the articles, Dell'Aquila felt it was unlikely
that U.S. Coast Guard personnel, trained in navigation and
identification of basic celestial objects such as the planets, could
have made such a gross misidentification.  Likewise, the statement
attributed to the professor of astronomy was equally unacceptable, in
that no other similar "spontaneous gas emission" from the planets
cited, of the necessary magnitude, had ever been noted, particulary on
this weekend.
         In the course of the follow-up investigation by Dell'Aquila
and Wedge, a Coast Guard incident report was found (presently in
MUFON's possession) which states that Coast Guard personnel responded
to several calls reporting UFOs over Lake Erie on the night of March
4, 1988.  When the Coast Guard arrived, the report confirms that a
large object "dispersed 3-5 smaller flying objects that were zipping
around rather quickly.  These objects had red, green white, and yellow
lights on them that strobed intermittently  They also had the ability
to stop and hover in mid-flight."  The incident report confirms Mr.
and Mrs. B's reports, including the abnormal cracking of the ice as
the object came closer to it and apparently landed.  "The smaller
objects began hovering in the area where the large object landed
(about 1/4 mile east of the CEI power plant) and after a few minutes
they began flying around again."  The report states that, "One of the
small objects turned on a spotlight where the large object had been,
but [the Coast Guard personnel] could not see anything, and then the
object seemed to disappear.  Another object approached [these
personnel] approximately 500 yards offshore about 20 feet above the
ice, and it began moving closer as [the Coast Guard] began flashing
its headlights, then it moved off to the west."

                            (Page 2 of 3)
         A subsequent Coast Guard report (also in possession of MUFON)
prepared after the sightings of the following night attributes the
sightings to misidentifications of the planets Venus and Jupiter and
says, "the flashing lights are gases in the atmosphere...Request
incident closed this unit."  In response to a classified advertisement
placed by the investigators, other witnesses contacted Dell'Aquila and
Wedge, and have been interviewed as the investigation continues.
         On the same night (March 4th) at about 10:00 P.M., and
continuing until approximately 10:30 P.M., C.H. (name and address
provided to MUFON) also reported a UFO near her home, which is a few
miles south of the lake shore and just east of the Perry Nuclear
Plant.  C.H. was walking a puppy when she noticed the stationary
triangular object in the southeasterly sky.  It was much brighter than
the moon, and seemed to upset the puppy, which she took back indoors.
Returning outdoors, she reported that the object began sequentially
flashing multi-colored lights, suspended in rows below the base of the
triangle.  The witness responded by flashing her cigarette lighter and
the UFO's light pattern became more erratic.  At one point, the
triangle revolved clockwise, turning its apex about 90 degrees to a
horizontal position, but still flashing the rows of light.  After
several minutes, it turned back counter-clockwise as it simultaneously
accelerated away to the south at a high rate of speed, disappearing
behind some trees.  No noise or odor was reported.
         At about 10:30 P.M. that night T.K. (name and address
provided to MUFON), took a photograph in his back yard, within a few
miles of the Perry Nuclear Plant, showing a portion of a brightly lit
triangular object travelling across the sky (Photograph in possession
of MUFON).  This object was later confirmed by Mr. and Mrs. B and C.H.
to be identical to the triangular objects they were also observing
about the same time a few miles away, and is also similar to one
reported to Phil Imbrogno as having been near the Indian Point Nuclear
Power Plant in New York State on the same night.
         T.K. and his friend were outdoors on the night of March 4th,
observing the stars through his telescope.  Venus and Jupiter were
reported to be in the western sky behind a stand of trees.  While
looking southward through the telescope, out of the corner of his left
eye, T.K. noticed a bright, moving object in the sky.  He and his
friend were awe-struck by the triangular object, but he did have the
presence of mind to take 3 photographs with a small "snapshot" type
camera loaded with Kodak 110 color film, with which they had intended
to photograph stars through the telescope.  Only one photograph
turned out.  It is the last in the series, taken while
panning ahead of the object, and shows the front portion of the
triangle.  The object was described as about 3-4 inches tall at arm's
length and glowing an intense yellow/orange to white, with a bright
orange/red glow behind it.  It seemed to pulse brighter and dimmer,
moving in a roughly southwesterly direction until it was obscured by
trees.  As it moved, it accelerated, slowed and accelerated again.  No
sound or smell was noted, although his dog had a strong reaction,
running in circles and tugging on T.K.'s sleeve, apparently in an
attempt to urge him away from the object.  Total time of observation
was a few minutes.
         Dell'Aquila and Wedge continue to receive reports of
additional UFOs over the same period, some supported by photographs,
as the sightings continue to the date of this writing.  Supplementary
reports will be provided as the investigation of the flap progresses.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


       UDATE TO N.E. OHIO UFO FLAP:

       On Saturday, April 2, 1988 at about 3:15 P.M., Eastern Time, a flat
black helicopter was reported to fly at tree-top level over the N.E. Ohio home
of one of the witnesses whose prior sighting has been filed with MUFON by Dale
B. Wedge and Rick Dell'Aquila, and recounted on Paranet (see LAKERIEn.UFO).
The helicopter was observed by at least 5 individuals from three separate
residences in the neighborhood, and was in sight for 2-3 minutes.

       The unmarked and unlit helicopter had a military appearance as it
approached slowly from the west, making a loud sound peculiarly similar to
that made by a small airplane rather than a helicopter.  The apparently
windowless craft was observed to fly eastward, before turning to the south and
disappearing over a line of trees.  It apparently caused "snow" on a
television screen.  The investigation of the continuing series of UFO events
in this area continues and updates will be provided to MUFON and Paranet as
they become available.
       --Rick Dell'Aquila


--- Cont in part 2 ----

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: Wisconsin UFO Sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 19:39:47 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 248
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2199 alt.conspiracy:7686 sci.skeptic:15655




----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  11-Mar-87 00:17 MST
Subj:  APwi 03/10 Belleville UFO

   BELLEVILLE, Wis.  (AP) -- Lavonne Freidig  says she first thought it was
a distant  flock of geese, but  closer observation showed an  object shaped
like an airplane fuselage with no wings.
   Belleville had  recorded another sighting  this year of  an unidentified
flying object.
   "It just hung there.   I watched it and watched it,"  she said Monday of
the object or objects she and her son, Bill, saw in the sky at dusk Sunday.
   After several minutes, the hitherto motionless object took off without a
sound, leaving  a vapor trail  and several  smaller objects behind  it, she
said.
   "It  was  really  strange,"  said Ms.   Freidig,  adding  that  a  local
businessman and several of his out-of-town  relatives, as well as residents
of nearby Paoli also saw the object,  and that someone also photographed it
with a camera he had in his car.
   She said  she and her  son called the  Dane County sheriff's  office and
were given  the number of a  national unidentified flying  object reporting
center to call.
   The cigar-shaped object appeared  to be about as large as  a pen held at
arm's length, she said.
   In mid-January,  Belleville police officer  Glen Kazmar  reported seeing
lights much brighter  than a star suspended  in the sky west  of Belleville
for more than a half hour one evening.
   He said at the time that  a Federal Aviation Administration radar center
in Illinois detected a slow-moving object on its radar screens on the night
in question.
   Jack Smith, manager of the FAA control tower at the Dane County Regional
Airport in  Madison, said Monday  that tower  operators did not  report any
unidentified objects on their radar screens Sunday evening.
   He said the tower received no reports of sightings from pilots.


Copyright 1987 by the Associated Press.  All rights reserved.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 Report #: 225
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 05-12-1987
  Subject: WAUKESHA, WI

CASE TYPE:   LRS
     DATE:   10 MARCH 1987
     TIME:   22:45 HOURS
     CFN#:   0234
 DURATION:   UNKNOWN
WITNESSES:   ONE
   SOURCE:   FREEMAN, WAUKESHA, WI  3/12/87
--------------------------------------------
Second UFO reported in city area.

Waukesha - An unidentified flying object was spotted late Tuesday night by a
woman on the city's east side in the same area a similar sighting was reported
in November.

The woman's husband reported the UFO because he said his wife was slighty
embarrassed to talk about what she saw.  The husband said as the woman pull
into her driveway near the corner of Arcadian and Oakland avenues at about
10:45 p.m., she spotted a triangular object with red and white lights hovering
in the air less than a mile to the northeast.

The woman beeped the horn of her car to alert husdand, but by the time he got
outside, the object was out of sight.   A UFO matching the same general
description, was sighted by a motorist in the area Nov. 24. "She's convinced
it wasn't a plan or a helicopter, said the husband, who did not want to be
identified.

Area law officers and airports reported nothing unusual Tuesday night, and the
Wisconsin National Guard and Army Reserve said they had no helicopters in
flight in the area at that time.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


 Report #: 214
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 01-31-1987
  Subject: BELLEVILLE, WI

CASE TYPE:   LRS - POSSIBLE - RV
     DATE:   15 JANUARY 1987
     TIME:   21:OO HOURS
     CFN#:   0336
 DURATION:   06:HOURS
WITNESSES:   MANY
   SOURCE:   AP - BELLEVILLE, WI
----------------------------------------------------
A Belleville patrolman's sighting of strange lights in the night sky is under
investigation by a ufo study group, the police chief said monday.  officer
Glen Kazmar reported the red, white and blue lights to sheriff's dispatchers
who relayed the sighting to the Federal Aviation Administration Control Tower
on Jan 15, police Chief Jack Pace said.

He couldn't see what the lights were attached to, Pace said.  He couldn't hear
any sound.  Kazmar was off duty Monday and did not answer his home telephone,
but he told the Monroe Evening Times: when it was just stayed in the same
place, and the bright lights, then I knew it was something that wasn't normal.

Kazmar first sighted the lights about 9 P.M. and he and a passenger, Jeff
Furseth, began studying them more closely about 3 A.M., Kazmar told the Times.
They watched them untill nearly daybreak, when the lights disappeared on the
horizon.  The officer estimated he got within a mile of the lights, Pace said.
Other reports of lights were received that night by sheriff's deputice in Dane
and Green counties. The FAA tower in Chicago also said it was tracking a
slowly moving object in the area, but made no radio contact with it. Actually,
we we're not sure if what they were looking at on the their radar was what
officer Kazmar saw, but it's possible, Pace said.

Happenings in Dane County very closely correspond to a number of sightings in
the Waukesha area and Kenosha County.  Since Kazmar's sighting and news of it
spread the six-officer department has received several calls about UFO's
sightings, Pace said.  None of the calls of other sightings resemble what
Kazmar reported and Pace added he expects the reports to taper off.  Other
reports of sightings in near by countys have been reported to a study group.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Report #: 223
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 04-22-1987
  Subject: GLEASON, WI

CASE TYPE:   LRS
     DATE:   3 FEBRUARY 1987
     TIME:   18:45 HOURS
     CFN#:   0345
 DURATION:   UNKNOWN
WITNESSES:   THREE
   SOURCE:   JOURNAL, ANTIGO
----------------------------------------------
Another in a series of recent UFO unidentified flying object sightings was
reported in the Gleason area Thesday night.

Three sister, Rhonda Chapman, 13, Rebecca Chapman, 10, and Tara Chapman, 9, of
N8196 Highway H., Gleason, reported to Lincoln County sheriff's department
that they spotted a UFO in the sky near their home about 6:45 P.M. The
information was relayed to the Langlade County sheriff's department.

The girls said they saw a large round object that was first yellow and white
in color, and later changed to blue with red flashing lights.  Sparks emitted
from the object, the girls reported.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

UFO WELCOME MAT IS OUT IN WISCONSIN

ELMWOOD, WI (SEPT. 24) REUTER - This small town in western Wisconsin doesn't
have many parking places, and there is no motel. But the welcome mat is
always out for visitors from space.
Elmwood, with a population of 1,009, has turned waiting for alien visits into
all year business.

It all began 15 years ago when George Wheeler, described by friends as a
no-nonsense policeman, reported that he had been attacked by a blue light
from a large ball of flame that hovered over his squad car at the village
quarry.

Eight years ago, 76-year-old Hobbs Wilson said he had seen a UFO 10 km (six
miles) from town.

''It was six to seven meters (18 to 20 feet) long, made no noise and it lit
up the barnyard,'' he tells visitors. ''Where did it get the power to light
up like that? I don't know.''

More recently area businessman Tom Weber got international attention when he
tried to raise 50 million dollars to build a landing strip for aliens.
He envisioned it beaming welcoming lights toward space to entice wandering
craft down for a friendly landing and perhaps a cup of coffee.
That project flopped for lack of money.

While other small towns across America have their pumpkin festivals, fishing
derbies and other local occasions, Elmwood makes its mark with annual ''UFO
Days.''

The most recent attracted 2,000 tourists, some dressed like Hollywood-issue
aliens.

They watched parades, danced in the street, rode carnival rides, ate UFO
Burgers (topped with melted cheese and sauerkraut) and saw the crowning of a
UFO Queen.

The six finalists in that last event were asked by the judges to explain why
UFOs are attracted to Elmwood.

''It might be because they want to study a rural culture, and this is a very
rural culture,'' said 17-year-old Kathryn Raasch.
Children chased through the streets gathering 500 paper plates dropped from
an airplane. The imitation flying saucers were redeemable for prizes ranging
from five to 75 cents.

''Every town around here seems to have its Strawberry Festival or its
Cucumber Festival or its Potato Festival, so we decided to have a UFO
Festival because we've had a lot of sightings,'' said Caroline Schoeder, an
organiser of the event.

The continuing sale of inflatable space ships, T-shirts, caps, mugs,
ashtrays, badges, bumper stickers and other products has become something of
a cottage industry.

''We usually try to donate about 3,000 dollars a year to the community,''
said Sharon Weber, who did a brisk business at a concession stand run by
the Elmwood Area Community Club, a charitable organisation.
Profits from the sale of UFO paraphernalia have paid for an air conditioning
system in a community auditorium and for Christmas decorations in the
downtown district, she said.

However, for the true UFO aficionado wanting to meet alien beings, Elmwood
may be a disappointment.

Rusty Paar, 23, drove in from La Crosse, Wisconsin, clutching a photocopied
document that he said outlined a government cover-up of UFO landings. But he
found few people who took the matter as seriously.

''This whole event just looks like a bunch of people looking for an excuse to
party,'' he said.
==============================================================================

__ EOF __

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: Ohio UFO Sightings part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 19:37:09 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 1141
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2200 alt.conspiracy:7687 sci.skeptic:15656



--- Ohio sightings part 2 ---


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

              INTERVIEW OF WITNESSES TO EASTLAKE UFO
     Copyright 1988, Richard P. Dell'Aquila and Dale B. Wedge

       On March 26, 1988, two civilian witnesses to the Eastlake
UFOs (W1 and her husband W2) who were on the beach with the
Coast Guard March 4, 1988 were interviewed.  The following is a
partial transcript of that interview, conducted by Dale Wedge
(DW) and Rick Dell'Aquila (RD).  Several other witnesses have
also been interviewd and photographic evidence has been
obtained.  To date, however, the Coast Guard has refused further
information or interviews of its personnel concerning the UFO
sighting that night near the CEI electric power plant.  The
investigation continues.

RD     ...Please tell us what happened in your own words.

W1     We were coming home (on March 4, 1988) and I saw
something over the lake...and it wasn't moving and I had my
husband go down the street and I said, "Go down to the beach
because I'm telling you there is something out there."  He kept
laughing at me.  I said I was serious and we went down there.
We got out of the car and walked to the beach.  I had left the
kids in the car and you could see it.  It looked almost like the
shape of a blimp and had lights on both sides.  One end was
brighter and the other end was a little bit dimmer, but one end
flashed.  It wasn't a constant light that was on.  It seemed to
rock a little bit--you could just see it rocking back and
forth.  It hovered and didn't make any noise.
       The ice was cracking really bad and the ice down here
doesn't crack like that.  It was making like--it was rumbling
and cracking it was real, real loud.  There were no animals
barking or nothing.  Around here we have a lot of dogs and that
was surprising beacuse you always hear the dogs out.  There were
no animals--just the real loud noise out of the lake.
       We were standing on the beach and my husband and I were
looking at this thing.  It started to turn and I thought--you
know how you get really eerie feelings?  I said to myself there
is something up there.  You could see it was a ship or something
bacause you could see there was a gray line like a football kind
of thing in the middle, but you couldn't really see it.  You
could just see it was there.  Do you understand what I'm saying?

RD     We are going to ask you to draw a sketch in a while.

W1     You could see the whole thing, but not real well.  You
could see there was a middle to it.  We stayed and we watched it
for a while...(interview interrupted by phone call).

DW     Okay, we are back on.  We had a phone call interruption.

W1     ...Okay, we sat down at the beach and while we were
watching this I had the kids in the car and I was getting kind
of "weirded-out" you know, because you hear about these things,
but you never really believe it until you see them.  It started
to turn toward us.  It was coming in closer to land and beacuse
my kids were in the car, I didn't want to stay down at the
beach, beacuse you never know whats going to happen or if it was
going to come down to get us or whatever.

 RD     In other words, you were concerned for your safety?

W1     Yeah, because it was coming closer to us.  You could
see...it seemed like it knew we were there.  We were the only
ones down there at the time and I was getting really nervous.  I
told my husband, "You know, we've got two kids in the car.
Let's get them home and safe so we don't have to worry about
anything."  He said okay, so we got the kids back to the house
and I put them in their room and I locked the door beacuse I had
a real eerie feeling, you know after we left there.  We were
down there a while looking at it and we came home to watch it
from our living room.

RD     When you say "we"--who else was there with you?

W1     My husband and my kids.  So I was looking at it from here
and I said to my husband, "Well, maybe I'm nuts, I don't know,
but let's call Sue," who lives across the street, "and see if
she sees the same thing that we do."  So I did, I called her and
her and her son went outside and they saw the same thing and we
kept hearing this noise at the lake and that really scared us
because, like I said, the lake doesn't make noises like that.
We watched it most of the evening and when it started to come
down, we all got real curious and we all went back down.  Sue
drove down to the beach and she saw it with her son and her
husband thinks she's totally "cracked-up." (Laughter.)  But they
all did.  Everybody thinks, you know, we didn't see what we did.
       So now we get down there and the thing's starting to
land.  You could see like red and blue lights and they said they
were planets and gasses and nonsense like that, but they were
actual lights starting to flutter.  But before this, while it
was still in the sky, there were like little triangle "planes",
about, there were, we counted about five--we weren't sure if
there were five or six, but we counted five of them that were
running back and forth.  They were going up and down, like
hovering.  They didn't make any noise, but they were going
REALLY fast across the sky and by this time the Coast Guard was
down there.
       I had called the Coast Guard, I would say at least twelve
times and they kept telling me, "Well, your crazy and nothing's
wrong...(Phone call interrruption).

DW     Pause for phone call.

DW     Okay, we're back on.

W1     So now what had happened was these planes were like,
looked like they had come out of it, because they came out of
nowhere.  We saw them come out...I don't know if it was on the
side or on the front of it, but you could tell they came out of
it because they were real litte.  They looked like little yellow
triangles.  They were real bright and went super, super fast.

 They went up and down like this, instead of, you know how a
plane goes this way?  Well, they were going up and down and like
diagonally at it and they were hovering around it and then they
started shooting out toward the lake and this time the Coast
Guard saw all this because that's when they sent their people
out when these little planes started appearing.  And when they
got down here, they saw these things and they were coming real
close to the coastline.  That's when these kids were getting
scared.

RD     When you say "kids," do you mean Coast Guard personnel?

W1     Yeah, they were young boys.  They were real scared and we
got REALLY scared beacuse we were right down on the beach there
and we figured the coastline that would be it.  We were afraid
they would attack their truck, because their truck had lights on
it.  So we told them, "Turn off your lights."  Because the more
they kept coming closer and closer to the lights of the truck,
because the truck was parked on the hill. There's like a little
hill over there.  They could see the lights, because they seemed
to be coming at the lights. And so we had them shut their lights
off because we were scared.  You never know what was going to go
on.  We didn't know what was in these ships or planes or
whatever they were because we couldn't tell, but I've never seen
a yellow triangle fly around the sky.

RD     It was yellow?

W1     Yeah.  Bright, REAL BRIGHT.  It looked like a light.
That's what it looked like.  It looked like a bright light.  You
know how a car light you'd have? It looked just like that, but
it glowed.  It was yellow.

RD     Was there any portion of it that was brighter than any
other portion of it?

W1     No.  It ws all real bright.

RD     Just one solid, bright light?

W1     Yeah, little bright triangles.  You know like the little
glider models you get for your kids?  There in triangles.  You
make paper airplanes...Like that shape?  That's exactly what
they were, and they were solid.  They weren't...it didn't have
wings or anything else.

RD     Was it even-sided?  All three sides of equal length?

W1     No, no, it was more pointed like that (gesturing).

RD     Okay.

W1     It was exactly like that (forming triangle with her
fingers).  The front was more pointy.  How's that?  I flunked
geometry by the way.

 RD     Okay.

W1     But it was more pointy, almost like the tip of an arroww.

RD     Okay, so in other words, the two sides were longer...

W1     Were longer than the base...I was wondering why you were
laughing at me.

RD     We're not laughing at you.

DW     No. We're not.

(Wedge and Dell'Aquila had reacted to the fact that the
triangular objects described by W1 were identical to those
described by other independent witnesses that night and
identical to the bright yellow triangular object one witness
photographed.)

W1     Okay.  They were all solid bright light.  There was no
part of it that was darker than others.  We saw it real close
down at the shoreline.  But when they started coming at this
thing and they went back into it, too, we thought maybe it
disapeared over the lake.  Well, here they had gone, shooting
out over the lake and coming, then all of a sudden we saw tham
about an hour later, coming back REALLY fast, and they came
right into that ship.

RD     Did you see anything open up on the ship, a door or
anything like that?

W1     No, but they went right into it because they went right
between the lights, so it had to be an opening on the side of
it, beacuse they went right into it.  They came up and then they
went right into it.

RD     Were you able to observe which direction they left.

W1     They went out that way, toward Canada...they went east
too, this way.  But none of them went that way, toward
Cleveland.  They all went this way.

RD     Did any of them go south or southeast?

W1     No. They stayed over the lake...they went east and north
toward Canada, and that's where basically they stayed.  When you
saw them shooting out, it was just almost right over land and we
had seen them come out and said to my husband," What in the
world is that?"  He was just laughing.  He said, "You're
just..." and he got, you know, he goes, "Yeah, sure, I'm going
to tell my mother we were sitting home watching UFOs tonight."
But, that's what happened.  They were there and then we saw them
like I said, about an hour later, come back in the same

 direction they came in, and they all went right back into the
thing, one at a time, too.  It wasn't like they all swooped down
on it and went back into it.  They went back in it one at a
time, and then the ship seemed to land in the lake.  It was
about maybe an hour difference, an hour lapse.  The ship started
setting down on Lake Erie.  That's when all these colored lights
started coming on when it sat down.  You could see the lights as
it sat down on the lake, because it was all ice.  As soon as it
landed, about five minutes later after it landed, you could
still see it, the red and the yellow lights and the blue lights,
running around the bottom on the lake, because it was a clear
night, it was beautiful.  Then as soon as all the lights went
out on it, the lake stopped cracking.  Everything got dead
silent.  There wasn't animals--nothing.  Everything got totally
quiet.  That was it.

DW     Can you give us a time, approximate time?

RD     When did you first see it?

W1     About six.  I think it was about six.  My husband said it
was later but I don't think so, because it was just getting
dark.

DW     It doesn't get dark until about 6:30

W1     Okay, then maybe it was a little later, about 6:30 or
7:00 P.M.  It wasn't exactly dark, but it wasn't light out.  It
was like dusk, almost, where it's just starting to get dark.

RD     When did you last observe it?

W1     I'd say about 11:30 P.M.

RD     You were down there for 4-1/2 to 5 hours?

W1     No.  We came back up to the house and  watched it.  When
it started to set, we went back down.

RD     I see.  At the same time, were you able to observe any of
the ojects in the sky that you would recognize?

W1     Oh, yeah, absolutely because we were there, we kept
looking at them and looking at them to see, you know, we were
curious.  Even from the house, when it started moving in-land,
you could see, you know, what it was if you looked real close.

RD     Where was the moon for example?

W1     The moon?

RD     Yeah.  Was it out?


 W1     Yeah, there were moon, the stars were beautiful.  All the
stars were out.

RD     Was it a clear night?

W1     Yeah.  it was real clear.

RD     Did you notice where the planets were?

W1     The planets that they told me this was?

RD     Well, the planets.

W1     I didn't really...we weren't looking for the planets, but
they would have been behind it, and farther off.

RD     Is there any question in your mind that what you were
looking at was something that you should have recognized, like
the planets or...?

W1     No. It was definitely a ship, because you could see that
there was  a center of it.  You could also see planes coming out
of it, or little vehicles or whatever they are that came out of
it and we saw them go back in it.  We were almost right directly
underneath it...The more we stayed down at the beach, it was
turning toward us to come toward us and I got scared, thinking
well, maybe someone would come out or get us or something will
happen...If we could see it, I knew it could see us, because we
were right out in the open on flat land looking at it...

       The interview continued for several more minutes and W1
drew some sketches.

W1     (Drawing)  The (light) on the left hand side of the
object blinked constantly.

RD     Was there a regular pattern to the blinking?

W1     It was almost like if you looked out the lake, you know
how they have those (lights) when you come in from the lake?
Almost like that. (Phone interrruption)

DW     We are going to pause for another phone call.

RD     What color was the object between the lights?

W1     ...gunmetal gray.

RD     Did it seem solid?

W1     Yes.

RD     Did it seem to have a three-dimensional shape?


 W1     You could tell it was almost rounded.  It was like a
football...It was all the same color and you could definitely
see the outline of it.  We were standing SO close, that you
could see the outline.  It was totally dark in the center of it
and at the top, but you could tell the difference between the
sky and the shape.

RD     Did it seem to have hard edges or fuzzy edges?

W1     No, they were very clear edges...

       The interview continued and W1's husband (W2) arrived
home.

W2     ...Boy, I'll tell you you ought to see this thing, I
watched this thing down at the beach with the Coast Guard guys.
It  was the strangest thing I've ever seen in my life.  It had
these guys running, they were so scared.  It was strange.  As it
got lower to the water, all these little, what we thought were
jets, came and hovered right above this thing.  We assumed they
were those Harrier jets that can just hover.  When they got
closer, these jets came about forty or fifty feet above the ice
and they were going back and forth across the lake unbelievably
fast.  They were covering a fifty mile stretch, like that
(Snapping his fingers).

RD     What shape were they?

W2     We thought that they looked like little jets.  That's
what we assumed.  Then when they got closer, they were so
little, they were smaller than a one-seated Cessna.  They didn't
make any noise.

DW     What about shape?

W2     We couldn't tell.  All I could see was lights.  I could
tell you that it looked like a triangle.  That's what it looked
like.  It just looked lik a plain triangle.  We couldn't tell a
tail fin or anything like that.  It looked like a triangle
because it was lights down the wings and on the tip of it.

RD     You mean at the top of the triangle there was a light?

W2     Yeah. There was a light.

W1     Now see, I didn't see that.  I saw just a plain light.

DW     Do you know what color it was?

W2     One was white and one was bright white...you could tell
they were definitely connected, because if the nose dropped, the
tail went up exactly.  But anyhow, when the thing got closer to
the water, the one bright light started twirling like all
different colors: red, green, blue, yellow, and then it just
 sunk into the water and one end was white and one end was red.
Then it just sat in the water for about a half hour and then it
was gone.  While it was sitting on the ice, those planes were
hovering above it.  You could see that they were flashing lights
down on it.  It was like five jets within maybe a quarter mile
area of each other, and all of a sudden they were just gone.
They just went up in the air and out, just out.

RD     About what time did they leave like that?

W2     9:30 or a quarter to ten...

DW     Did you talk with the Coast Guard guys?

W2     Yeah, we sat and talked to them for a half hour.  We
watched the thing for an hour.

DW     What were they saying?

W2     They couldn't believe it.  They said they never saw
nothing like it in the world.  The guy said he's been in the
service for years and he said he knows that a Harrier jet can't
take off and fly that fast from a start.  This thing got up so
high in the air and was gone so fast, it was seconds and it was
gone out of view.  The night was so clear that we could see for
miles and miles and miles...These two guys were so scared.  They
thought, first our assumption was it was a satellite, maybe from
Canada, that went bad and it was coming down over the lake.
They told me that they believed it was Canadian air maneuvers.
But then when they saw these planes, they came about five miles
off shore and they were going about fifty feet above the ice.
You could just see the ice and stuff rippling behind them.
       They got nervous because they didn't want their truck to
be seen...they were afraid maybe a missle would be shot at them
or something.

RD     Is there any confusion in your mind that it was maybe the
moon or the stars...?

W2     No. No, not the first night.  The second night it was
much, much much higher in the air. Miles and miles.  But the
second night, it appeared at the same time and dropped down in
the lake at the same time...But the first night, no way.  We
went and saw that thing.  That thing was no more than three
miles in the air.

RD     You're aware that the newspaper accouunts are that it was
the planets?

W2     Planets, right. No that's BULL****, because I went and
stood out on the lake and looked up at them and I saw the thing
moving.  You could see it pivoting like this (gesturing in a
rocking motion like a teeter-totter).  When it got way out over
the lake, that thing just started spinning around, it was all
different kinds of lights...
        The interview continued and more sketches were made by
W1.  In being asked to draw the small objects, she drew a
triangle.

RD     When it landed on the ice, did it seem like it went under
the surface of the water, or did it rest on the ice for a period
of time.

W1     I don't know.  Sue saw it too from her back yard.  You
could see it sit down though.  It didn't look like it sunk.  We
went down the next day to see if we could see anything.  All you
could see was ice broken everywhere.  Huge, huge chunks of
ice...

DW     Which Coast Guard Station?

W2 & W1        Fairport Harbor.

DW     Did they come up, did they drive up? That's quite a way
down isn't it?

W2     They drove this way.  They said they could see the lights
from their Coast Guard station.

W1     Right.  They were watching it and observing it from the
Coast Guard station itself and didn't know what to make out of
the little lights.

DW     Did they tell you why they decided to come up here?

W2     Yeah, beacuse they got so many calls that they wanted to
come and investigate it.  They had even called us back a few
times that night.

W1     They said it was totally out of their league.  They
didn't know what it was or what it could be.  They didn't want
to speculate.  They also said to us, even on the next day, that
the Army and I guess, NASA did not want them to investigate any
further.  They did not want them to go out on the ice, because
they have a cutter.  They could have gone out to see where it
landed, because their men made a report too.  Somewhere along
the line...and they could not get an answer from NASA, they
couldn't get an answer from anybody.  And they were told NOT to
do anything about it, that it was out of their league, it was


 RD     They were told it was out of their league?

W1     Uh-huh.

RD     That' a quote?

W1     Yes. It was out of their league and out of their hands.
That's exactly what they told us.  I talked to...a person in
command there and he got on the phone with me and that's exactly
what he told me also.  That they had to forward all their
information to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and a place in
Detroit, which I don't know where in Detroit they were going to
send something, but they said the were NOT ALLOWED to
investigate it any further, that that's what they were told and
to stay out of it...I wrote down their names because I was so
upset that they called the police on me.

DW     Did they ever tell you not to talk about it?

W1     They told me that it was just more or less, that it was
out of their league and no one would, more or less, believe me
and I think that's what they were getting at when they talked to
me...I mean, they sent the police to my house, and that was more
a harrassment than anything else.  You could tell they didn't
want to talk about it either, because I called them back the
next day and they were real snotty to me on the phone.

       Investigation forms were then completed, and the
photograph taken on the same night in a location several miles
to the southeast was shown to the witnesses.  They confirmed
that the triangular object shown in the photograph was identical
to the triangular objects they had observed on the same night.
       Clearly, these witnesses, the Coast Guard, other
independent witnesses who have been interviewed, and the
photographic evidence all confirm that the Venus/Jupiter
hypothesis offered by the skeptical "experts" as the ultimate
solution to this case has no merit or validity.  The responses
of these experts are invited.

                Rick Dell'Aquila and
                Dale Wedge

Copyright 1988, Richard P. Dell'Aquila and Dale B. Wedge


------------------------------------------------------------------------

FILENAME: LAKERIE.UFO

N.E. OHIO FLAP by Richard P. Dell'Aquila

         Richard P. Dell'Aquila and Dale B. Wedge, MUFON State Section
Directors for Cuyahoga, Lake, Geauga and Ashtabula Counties (Ohio) have
been investigating a series of sightings, beginning about March  4, 1988
and seemingly centered around the Perry Nuclear Plant, and the CEI coal
burning plant at Eastlake, both on the shore of Lake Erie, east of
Cleveland, Ohio. March 4th was a clear, crisp nigh t and the stars were
clearly visible, especially to the north over the lake where there are no
city lights.  Venus and Jupiter were bright and in close proximity to each
other in the western sky.  At about 6:30 P.M., S.B. (name and address
provided to MUFON) and her children were driving home to Eastlake along the
lake shore when they observed a large blimp-like object with bright white
lights at each end, hovering over the lake and rocking end to end l ike a
"teeter-totter." One light was brighter t han the other and was strobing.
On arriving home, she asked her husband to accompany her to the beach about
200 yards north for a closer view of the object which they later described
as "larger than a football held at arm's length." She and her husband
walked onto the beach.  The noiseless object was gun metal gray and seemed
to cause the ice on the lake to rumble and crack loudly in an unusual way
which frightened her.  The witnesses had to shout to be heard by ea ch
other, and were surpr ised that no dogs were out barking as would have been
expected.

After observing the object for a while, the couple became  concerned for
the safety of their children in the car when the object revolved slowly
about 90 degrees, coming almost overhead (about 1/4 mile high) and pointing
its "front" end down toward them.  They drove the children home and
continued watching the object from their living room window which fac es
the lake.  A neighbor was phoned and she and her son went to the beach,
reporting the same thing.  They took photographs which did not turn out.
The object began to descend and the witnesses returned to the beach, where
it was now observed to have red and blue blinking lights along its bottom
edge.  It emitted 5 or 6 noiseless, intensly bright yellow triangular
lights from its side.  They intermittently hovered around the larger
object, darted and zig-zagged into the night sky at velocities far in
excess of known aircraft. Mr. B stated the triangular objects we re smaller
than a one-seat Cessna and "crossed 50 mile stretches low over the ice in
the snap of a finger."  They were said to be able to approach the shore,
turn abrupt right angles due east toward the Perry Nuclear Plant about 12
miles away, climbing  rapidly and returning again, all within several
seconds.  By this time, a Coast Guard patrol vehicle had arrived on the
beach in response to S.B.'s several phone calls. The triangular objects
came closer t o the shore, causing the witnesses to become concerned that
the lights on the Coast Guard  vehicle would attract the objects and the
lights were turned off.  The triangles continued to fly off at high speed
northward over the lake and eastward toward the Perry Nuclear Plant.  About
an hour later, they returned one at a time into the large ship, which then
landed on the ice.  Several multi-colored lights now came on for about 5
minutes
(Page 1 of 3) on the bottom of the object "in a wave like a mo vie theater
sign" and the brighter white light on the end began strobing red and white.

When these went off, the ice stopped making noise and everything  became
"dead silent."  The object could no longer be seen within about a half hour
and it was assumed to have gone below the surface.  The next day, unusually
huge pieces of broken ice were observed in the area of the landing.

The Coast Guard informed Mr. and Mrs. B the followi ng day  that the Army
and NASA, whom S.B. had also phoned, instructed them no t to investigate
the matter further or go out on the lake in their cutter to examine the ice
in the area of the landing, since the matter was "out of their league and
out of their hands."  They informed the couple that all information was
being forwarded to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and a facility in
Detroit, Michigan.  In response to a Coast Guard inquiry, Wright-Patterson
refused to confirm or deny any interest in these activities. O n the next
night, the same witnesses observed sever al triangular objects over the
lake for about 45 minutes.  By the time Coast Guard personnel arrived on
the scene, the objects were gone. On March 7, 1988, the Cleveland Plain
Dealer and Lake County News-Herald carried articles which attributed a
series of reports of large brightly lit objects over Lake Erie on the prior
weekend to several witnesses'misidentification of the planets Venus and
Jupiter. The newspaper accounts indicated that the Fairport Harbor Coast
Guard went to the area and saw a large bright object that seemed to
dispurse smaller, bright multi-colored objects.  But when they called the
local  air traffic controllers, they were "informed" that Jupiter and Venus
were in alignment and that the colors were the result of "spontaneous gas
emissions from the two planets."  One article even attributed this amazing
explanation to a professor of astronomy at a local university. On reading
the articles, Dell'Aquila felt it was unlikely that U.S. Coast Guard
personnel, trained in navigation and identification of basic celestial
objects such as the planets, could have made such a gross
misidentification.  Likewise, the statement attributed to the professor of
astronomy was equally unacceptable, in that no other similar "spontaneous
gas emission" from the planets cited, of the necessary magnitude, had ever
been noted, particulary on this weekend. In the course of the follow-up
investigation by Dell'Aquila and Wedge, a Coast Guard incident report was
found (p res ently in  MUFON's possession) which states that Coast Guard
personnel responded to several calls reporting UFOs over Lake Erie on the
night of March 4, 1988.  When the Coast Guard arrived, the report confirms
that a large object "dispersed 3-5 smaller flying objects that were zipping
around rather quickly.  These objects had red, green white, and yellow
lights on them that strobed intermittently.  They also had the ability to
stop and hover in mid-flight." The incident report confirms Mr. and Mrs. B
's reports, including the abnormal cracking of the ice as the object came
closer to it and apparently landed.  "The smaller objects began hovering in
the area where the large object landed (about 1/4 mile east of the CEI
power plant) and after a few minutes they began flying around again."  The
report states that, "One of the small objects turned on a spotlight where
the large object had been,  but [the Coast Guard personnel] could not see
anything, and then the object seemed to disappear.  Another ob ject
approached [these personnel] approximately 500 yards offshore about 20 feet
above the ice, and it began moving closer as [the Coast Guard] began
flashing its headlights, then it moved off to the west."
(Page 2 of 3)
    A subsequent Coast Guard report (also in possession of MUFON) prepared
after the sightings of the following night attributes the sightings to
misidentifications of the planets Venus and Jupiter and says, "the fla
shing lights are gases in the at mosphere...Request incident closed this
unit."  In response to a classified advertisement placed by the
investigators, other witnesses contacted Dell'Aquila and Wedge, and
have been interviewed as the investigation continues. On the same night
(March 4th) at about 10:00 P.M., and continuing until approximately 10:30
P.M., C.H. (name and address provided to MUFON) also reported a UFO near
her home, which is a few  miles south of the lake shore and just east of
the Perr y Nuclear Plant.  C.H. was walking a puppy when she noticed the
stationary triangular object in the southeasterly sky.  It was much
brighter than the moon, and seemed to upset the puppy, which she took back
indoors. Returning outdoors, she reported that the object began
sequentially flashing multi-colored lights, suspended in rows below the
base of the triangle.  The witness responded by flashing her cigarette
lighter and the UFO's light pattern beca me more erratic.  At one point,
the triangle revolved clockwise, turning it s apex about 90 degrees to
a horizontal position, but still flashing the rows of light. After several
minutes, it turned back counter-clockwise as it simultaneously accelerated
away to the south at a high rate of speed, disappearing  behind some trees.
No noise or odor was reported. At about 10:30 P.M. that night T.K. (name
and address provided to MUFON), took a photograph in his back yard, within
a few miles of the Perry Nuclear Plant, showing a portion of a brightly lit
triangular object travelling across the sky (Photograph in possession of
MUFON).  This object was later confirmed by Mr. and Mrs. B and C.H. to be
identical to the triangular objects they were also observing about the same
time a few miles away, and is also similar to one  reported to Phil
Imbrogno as having been near the Indian Point Nuclear Power Plant in New
York State on the same night. T.K. and his friend were outdoors on the
night of March 4th, observing the stars throu gh his telescope.  Venus and
Jupiter were reported to be in the western sky behind a stand of trees.
While looking southward through the telescope, out of the corner of his
left eye, T.K. noticed a bright, moving object in the sky.  He and his
friend were awe-struck by the triangular object, but he did have the
presence of mind to take 3 photographs with a small "snapshot" type camera
loaded with Kodak 110 color film, with which they had intended to
photograph stars through the telescope.  Only one photograph turned out. It
is the l ast in the series, taken while panning ahead of the object, and
shows the front portion of the triangle.  The object was described as about
3-4 inches tall at arm's length and glowing an intense yellow/orange to
white, with a bright orange/red glow behind it.  It seemed to pulse
brighter and dimmer,  moving in a roughly southwesterly direction until it
was obscured by trees.  As it moved, it accelerated, slowed and accelerated
again. No sound or smell was noted, although his dog had a strong reaction
, running in circles and tugging on T.K.'s sleeve, apparently in an attempt
to urge him away from the object.

Total time of observation was a few minutes. Dell'Aquila and Wedge continue
to receive reports of additional UFOs over the same period, some supported
by photographs, as the sightings continue to the date of this writing.
Supplementary reports will be provided as the investigation of the flap
progresses.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[The following is an edited version of Sunday, January 8, 1989 online CO with
Rick Dell'Aquila discussing his investigation of the Lake Erie UFO]


8:07:29 PM EST Sunday, January 8, 1989

 User  User ID       Nod  Rm   Name / Forum Area
 ----  ------------  ---  ---  -----------------
  36   76012,3361    MRT   5   Ted
  46   71330,3655    JAK   5   GREG
  56   75376,1620    CVK   5   Dale
  63   73367,472     CVK   5   Rick
  65   76004,2063    ACM   5   mike h
  78   70511,17      CRZ   5   Mike
  95   72377,1264    ANY   5   jc
  94   71450,3504    ANN   5   Bert
 103   71340,276     SOR   5   Mark.Y
 129   76703,603     DCI   5   Jim Horn VETSIG

(Ted) Our special Guest tonight is Cleveland attorney and UFO investigator, Rick
Dell'Aquila.  Rick and his investigative partner, Dale Wedge, are responsible
for the investigation of the Lake Erie UFO.  In addition to numerous files on
this subject in LIBrary 10, the next issue of The MUFON Journal will feature
this case in an article titled "Ohio Flap".  Any opening remarks Rick? GA

(5,Rick) Thanks Ted...Hello everyone. I first became aware of this case on
reading an article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer 3/7/88, attributing a series of
UFO reports by the Coast Guard and civilians near the CEI coal-burning power
plant over Lake Erie on 3/4/88 to misidentifications of the planets Venus and
Jupiter which were in close proximity  to each other that weekend.  The article
quoted a local astronomer that lights reported entering and leaving the
"planets" were "spontaneous gas emissions" from the planets' surface.  I would
have turned to the next page but for this ridiculous explanation. Instead, I
phoned the astronomer who confirmed that the planetary explanation was his
theory because "if they did not relate what they saw to the planets, then they
must have been seeing the planets." But the first time he had heard the
"spontaneous gas" explanation was when he read it in the paper himself. By now I
was very curious about the accuracy of the rest of the article and I phoned my
co-investigator, Dale Wedge. Dale and I  began an investigation and ran a
classified ad we received a response from someone who had taken a photo of a
brightly glowing triangular object over his yard that same night near the Perry
Nuclear Plant on Lake Erie and in the course of our investigation, we found
several other witnesses who have seen some things over the same period. We also
obtained a Coast Guard incident report on the sighting and interviewed witnesses
on the beach with the Coast Guard. They described several small brightly glowing
triangular objects
zipping over the lake leaving a wake of ice below and behind them.
These objects were emitted from a large football shaped object that
ultimately landed on the ice below the horizon.  The ice was crackling
loudly and in an abnormal manner until the object landed and everything
came deathly silent. The local CSICOP membership contends that the
large object was the planets and the smaller triangular objects were
the wings of seagull illuminated by moonlight. The photograph was examined by
Dr. Maccabee and found to depict a uniformly glowing bright triangular object.
ga


(Ted) I'll now open the floor to ? ga

(5,Bert) ?

(5,Bert) Rick, can you tell us how you were able to come by the Coast Guard
report? Also. What do you have now in the way of results of FOIA requests, etc.
GA

(5,Rick) A copy of the report was obtained by other investigators through the
FOIA after the Coast Guard first denied its existence. I originally obtained a
copy from a confidential source...However, as I say, the Coast Guard has since
released it through FOIA. ga

(Ted) At the MUFON meeting in Lincoln you were discussing the Lake Erie UFO
photos with Dr. Bruce Maccabee when Bert and I walked up to you. Has the good
Dr. done any analysis yet? And if so what are the results? ga

(5,Rick) Yes, he has examined it and some other information we sent him
concerning the camera...His opinion is that the image depicted is not the result
of a flaw in the film or camera, but an accurate depiction of some uniformly
glowing triangular shaped object...Based upon his calculations and our
measurements at the scene, the roughly equilateral triangle is approximately
25-35 feet tall. ga

(Ted) ga Bert

(5,Bert) Rick the fact that the CG has released the report via FOIA seems to
acknowledge that something did indeed go on. Did any additional information get
released as well, or do you think they release the copy simply because they knew
it was already captured. Also, who did they release the report to?

(5,Rick) Dale and I have been knocking ourselves out trying to take this
investigation to the next logical step, which is to interview the USCG
themselves. This has been an exercise in futility to this point.  I do not
believe that there has been an explicit admission by the USCG that something
unexplained went on. Their position is that their personnel misidentified the
planets for a period exceeding one hour using binoculars and describing the
erratic movements, spotlights, colors, etc. which are in the report and the
witnesses description. The report was printed in a CAUS Bulletin and released to
several other investigators after Dale and I made it public. ga

(Ted) What did the CG have to say about their comment that they were told "This
is out of their league? " GA

(5,Mark.Y) ?

(5,Rick) This was a statement made to the civilian witnesses the hearsay we have
is to the effect that the USCG wanted to go out on the lake the next day to
investigate  but were told not to do so since the matter was "out of their
league." ga

(Ted) Mark Y is next GA Mark

(5,Mark.Y) (Slightly off the topic.) Were there multiple evenings of sightings
or is this an isolated case? GA

(5,Rick) There have been multiple evening and multiple witness sightings over
this period, all seemingly within a 10-15 square mile area we have reports and
investigations on-going over this area from September 1987 to as recently as
November 1988...But that weekend seemed to be a peak period. ga

(Ted) Is there any evidence of missing time with any of the witnesses? ga

(5,Rick) No. ga

(Ted) Can you tell us anything about the most recent sightings? ga

(5,Rick) The 11/88 sighting involved a brightly lit cigar shape viewed in the
daylight for about 15 minutes which is identical to one reported by two
witnesses in September 1987.  There have been reports of objects hovering over
or near the nuclear power plant and one report of a low level fly-by by an
unmarked black helicopter, among some other things. ga

(5,Bert) ?

(Ted) Ga Bert

(5,Bert) Regarding the question of missing time is this issue routinely explored
when you interview a witness? GA

(5,Rick) Dale and I have been particularly sensitive to this question especially
since one of the witnesses was pregnant at the time of the sighting.  It would
be premature for us to say anything about that subject without more than we have
to this point. ga


(5,Bert) follow

(Ted) GA Bert

(5,Bert) Are you saying then that the question of missing time is indeed
discussed with your witnesses, but that it is premature to reveal it here? GA

(5,Rick) No...I don't want you to jump to that conclusion...but we do routinely
explore the question with the witnesses. ga

(5,Dale) !
(Ted) GA Dale

(5,Dale) I just wanted to note for Bert that the witness did have her baby in
September of 1988. ga

(Ted) What did it's eyes look like (HAH!) How many people, in total , have now
seen this UFO? ga

(5,Rick) On the night in question there were 4 civilians and two USCG personnel
on the beach and two witnesses present in the area of the photograph. ga

(Ted) How about other nights (or days? ) ga

(5,Rick) We have been talking to about two dozen people to date. ga

(5,Dale) !

(Ted) Ga Dale

(5,Dale) On the question of the release of the USCG document, I think it is
noteworthy to explain that an underling from the USCG released the document to a
news source who wants to remain anonymous.  Once that was done, I believe that
they could not hide the fact that there was one, therefore, they had to release
it to others.  From that point, the well has dried up also, in Just Caus,
someone asked through FOIA about USCG documents after the document we have.  The
USCG said they had no such documents, but Caus put the document that we have
next to this letter of denial.  You figure it out.ga

(5,Bert) ?

(Ted) Ga Bert

(5,Bert) Rick. You and Dale have put together a nice collection of documents
which give a rather comprehensive coverage of what happened the peak evening.
Once you had all this info together along with the CG report, did you go to the
news media with it?GA

(5,Dale) !

(5,Rick) We have sent copies and letters to Television ,radio and print media
throughout this part of Ohio with very little response, except for a local UHF
TV station which interviewed me after their airing of UFO Coverup: Live.  They
have suggested a longer segment on this case with me but that has not yet
materialized. ga

(Ted) GA Dale

(5,Dale) Correct me if I'm wrong Rick.  I believe Rick contacted the media in an
effort to gain information instead of publicizing it, up to the UFO Live
program.  There was a lady on an FM station that said her son was a USCG person
at the scene of the incident on that night.  Rick tried to get a copy of the
tape but the radio station did not respond.  We were contacted about going on TV
around the time of the sightings, but felt that this would jeopardize the
investigation with other who would state they saw the object for publicity sake.
Now, I hope Rick can get on TV to promote the case and get more info from
sources that may know something about that night.ga

(Ted) mike h. did you have a ? ga

(5,mike h) yep. Dale: I really hate to bring this up, but is the Sept. birth
related to your now notorious benevolent disinformation campaign? And what are
we supposed to believe about the Erie information if this is indeed the case? ga

(5,Dale) Rick had no knowledge of what I was doing.  He has chastised me for it,
since he has put so much time into this case.  This, in my opinion is Rick's
case, and in that manner, you should only give credibility to his facts, and not
mine.  Rick is  a credible attorney and investigator and should not be
questioned.ga

(5,mike h) sorry

(Ted) No one here is above "questioning" but I think I understand what you mean.
Rick have you read any of the Cooper/Lear "stuff" and if so what do you think?
ga

(5,Rick) Yes I have read those materials and I am waiting for evidence as far as
my personal opinion: I HOPE its not true. ga

 (Ted) SO do I. Several months ago we had a member by the name of Neil Palumbo
who was investigating a case of UFO crashing through the ice near Rochester.
Have you any knowledge of this person or his case? ga

(5,Rick) Someone mentioned it to me briefly and I find this one of the more
interesting aspects of these cases...That (At least at Lake Erie) the object
landed below the horizon onto the ice, where the smaller triangular objects
returned and hovered over it as it emitted several bright lights, one of the
triangle shone a spotlight onto the large object and at some point the entered
the large object one by one, whereupon it shut off its lights and was no longer
visible...But these things have been reported from time to time over Lake Erie
as well as Lake Ontario. ga

(Ted) I think it was Palumbo that claimed to have evidence of an under water
structure.  Dale, do you remember any of this? ga

(5,Dale) Yes. I believe that Neil had been working at a library and ran across
some maps that showed (to him) that there were some under water bases in Lake
Ontario.  I don't recall the extent or the information that  he had on this.  I
believe that there was something in LIB10 on this at one time.ga

(5,Bert) !

(Ted) Perhaps in light of recent information it might be a good idea to contact
him.  GA Bert

(5,Bert) As I recall Palumbo and several others have been investigating UFOs
entering and leaving the water at a sight near Toronto. They apparently had been
studying this for some time and were going to put the story together in a book
that would come out in 1990.  I remember he said that what they think is some
sort of base could actually be seen in some satellite photographs, but he would
not tell us where to look, because he didn't want to give the story away. I got
the feeling that he eventually was afraid he told us too much and that is why he
stopped showing up here on Sunday evenings. In any case, I think Dale actually
spoke to him on the phone. Is that right Dale. GA

(5,Dale) !

(Ted) Ga Dale

(5,Dale) I wanted to say Bert is absolute correct, the maps that Neil spoke
about were satellite photo maps that he ran across.  Where he never did disclose
to me.  I was unable to gain information in talking to him and just sent him
copies of our information at that time.ga

(Ted) His PPN is 71211,2217

(5,Rick) Before we sign-off here, I wanted to leave my post office box in case
anyone wants to drop me a line, or if Mr. Palumbo should read this:

P.O. Box 29163
Parma, Ohio 44129

(5,Dale) !

(Ted) GA Dale

(5,Dale) I have  a question for Rick. Rick and I have been upset that this case
hasn't made the MUFON Journal, since it gives many different elements not seen
in a lot of cases (e.g., official documents, photos, and multiple independent
witnesses).  Rick, when did you find out that they would put your article in the
Journal and what will it say as opposed to the article that was written last
year, but not published? ga

(5,Rick) This has been a disappointment for me apparently, MUFON will print a
VERY preliminary summary which was sent to them in April of 1988 when Dale and I
were hip deep in the investigation (complete with telephone problems). The first
notice that I had about the article being printed came from Ted this morning. I
regret that MUFON didn't contact us sooner before printing the article since we
have so much more and better information to add now. ga

(5,Dale) !

(Ted) GA Dale

(5,Bert) !

(5,Dale) I was just wondering if this was done in order to get the Central
States most important case in the Journal before an award was made?  Dan Wright
stated that this was the most important case in this sector of MUFON.  Perhaps
it had to be justified through printing in the Journal.ga

(Ted) Let me state how this information came to me. In preparation for tonight's
CO I called Walt Andrus (I think on Thursday.) I asked him why this case hadn't
gotten more attention as it was fascinating to me. He said that it was to appear
in the next issue which was at the printers and should be in the mail in a week
to 10 days. He also stated that the article was to be titled "Ohio Flap".
Perhaps either Dale or Rick should confirm this. GA

(5,Bert) !

(5,Rick) I guess I am pleased that it will finally be publicized, but as I say,
the article which will appear does not do justice to the scope and details of
the on-going "flap". ga

(Ted) GA Bert

(5,Bert) Just for the record, it's worth noting that in the FENWICK files, which
are on LIB10, there is reference to a UFO base located in Lake Ontario near
Hamilton. That would place it in the same area that Palumbo et al are doing
their research. I would recommend taking a look at that part of the file, Rick.
I say "that part", because it is quite long and much of it seems pretty "far
out". GA

(5,Rick) Thanks for the reminder...I did download that file, I believe from
Paranet...I'll have to look at it again. ga

(Ted) Dale did you have a comment? ga

(5,Dale) No sir.  I just guess maybe one.  I wish Rick  could have given justice
to the upcoming MUFON article by having the chance to upgrade his article.  The
article you will read was done in the midst of the investigation, and not
towards the end.  I guess lastly, Rick, is there anything available through the
mail about the investigation that can be given out rather cheaply to those
interested?ga

(5,Bert) !

(5,Rick) Yes...If anyone wants more info, write me at the Post Office Box. I'm a
little slow in responding, but I do get around to it, and since we intend to
continue pressing this investigation, there seems to be new developments
regularly. ga

(Ted) GA Bert

(5,Bert) Just wondered if you had considered sending some of your material to
UFO magazine or UFO Universe? GA

(5,Rick) Dale and I have talked about that and we will probably do something
along those lines eventually. ga

(Ted) What is this I hear about a book in the works? ga

(5,Dale) !

(5,Rick) Why does every investigation need to conclude in a book? I think this
sort of thing is the best way to get the most current information out there. ga

(Ted) Dale care to comment? ga

(5,Dale) I agree with  Rick, but one thing that I would like to do is get Rick
out here to test out my handy dandy new VHS Camera and do a poorly done video to
show you what we did throughout this. This could help others understand what we
went  through, what  was done, and what can be done better.  The Coyne's did it
Rick, remember?

(Ted) The Coyne's ? ga

(5,Dale) The Coyne's did a video on investigation.  Rather good, but I think we
could make a video that is really quite interesting.ga

(Ted) Shirley and George? ga

(5,Dale) yeah.ga

(Ted) I'd like to see that. ga

(5,Rick) Not a bad idea. ga

(Ted) Sounds like you have a winner Dale! ga

(5,Rick) Let's talk later. ga

(5,Dale) The thing is this is if this ever happens again, I want to film it as
it happens from start to finish.  Rick and I were left to audio tape, we taped
everything.  Video would be a great asset for us all.ga

(Ted) Any other ?s ga

(Ted)  Rick I want to thank you for spending your evening with us. It has been
informative and interesting.  I will forward a copy of this CO to you after I
have cleaned it up.   Again, thanks and don't be such a stranger to the ISSUES
forum.  We are international and would love to have you visit us from time to
time.  ga

(5,Rick) Thanks I'll stay in touch...Are you going to be in Las Vegas this
summer? ga

(Ted) I sure hope so. Anyone else? ga Let's hear it from those that plan to go
to the MUFON Las Vegas symposium. GA

(Ted) ME!

(5,Mike) Hope so!

(5,Dale) Need a baby sitter

(Ted) Take him with you!

(5,JIM) Do MUFONs bite?

(5,Rick) grrr

---EOF---


Don


--
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
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Subject: INFO: Incident At Indian Point - Imbrogno
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Date: 28 Sep 91 19:42:35 GMT
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This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
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      Incident At Indian Point

      Part I

      By. Philip J. Imbrogno

 The Indian Point nuclear reactor complex lies on the shore of the Hudson
River in the town of Buchanan, New York in Westchester county. There are
two reactor plants on the site each separated only by a fence. One site
belongs to Consolidated Edison Electric company and the other is operated
by the New York Power Authority (NYPA). The two plants have always been
controversial and area residents have tried to shut down operations at both
plants for the past ten years. At present, the only reactor in operation is
site Number 3 of the NYPA. It is here that an incredible incident with an
object that was not of this world would take place.

 Security at the Indian point complex is very good and they have been
trained to handle all types of incidents from meltdown to terrorists. The
security guards at the NYPA site are all ex-police officers with a great
deal of training. But all their training would not prepare them for what
would take place on July 24, 1984. It was on this date that they would have
a close encounter with Hudson valley UFO.

 The first time I heard about the sighting over the reactor was on
September 2, 1984, about a month and a half after it happened. I was doing
a radio talk show called "The Edge of Reality" on WNBC in New York. After
the show I received dozens of calls, and one caller identified himself as a
guard at Indian Point. I had heard that there had been a sighting there but
could not get any information because of the tight security at the plant.
The caller told me that he had been on duty on that night of July 24, 1984
and at about 10:15 P.M a giant UFO hovered over reactor number three no
more than 300 feet above the exhaust tower for fifteen minutes.

 This was exciting information because that same night, at 10:00 Bob
Pozzuoli of Brewster New York videotaped the Hudson Valley UFO, a videotape
that still remains unidentified to this day. Brewster is located about
twenty miles east of Indian Point and there is no doubt that it was the
same object because it was reported by hundreds of people in all the towns
between Brewster and Buchanan.

 The caller went on to tell me that the event was so shocking that the
commander was ready to give orders to shoot the UFO down. He then told me
that the object was at least 900 feet from end to end and was also
witnessed by eleven other guards at the NYPA complex and about a dozen
security guards at the adjacent Consolidated Edison plant.

 Since the callers job is at risk I can not give his name so I will refer
to him at Jeff. I had asked Jeff to meet with me to get the entire story.
He told me that he would have to first get clearance from his supervisor.
On September 5 I received a call from Jeff informing me that his supervisor
cleared me to come to the plant and interview the guards involved. I was
told that a camera and tape recorder would not be allowed on the complex
site for security reasons, I agreed to the terms. The interview was set for
September 7th in the afternoon. Everything looked fine and I was quite
excited about the information that I was going to obtain, then all hell
broke loose.

 Twenty-four hours before the meeting Jeff called me and told me that the
meeting was off and I would not be allowed on the plant. Orders came from
state headquaters forbidding any of the guards to talk with me about the
UFO sighting. Little did I know that on the same day of the call the entire
complex underwent a security shakeup by the Nuclear Reglatory
Commission(NRC) and other government agencies who I found out later were
Military and belonging to some special military force that is responsible
for security of government istallations in the area.

 I also found out that although the Indian Point complex is operated by
the NYPA and provides some of the power for the New York City Subway
system, it is also operated by federal government personnel and provides
power for a number of secret government bases and operations in the
Connectciut - New York area. One such place is an NSA satellite tracking
station located in Sandyhook Connecticut.

 The cancelled interview with the guards was very disappointing. The
airspace above Indian Point is restricted and no aircraft of any kind is
allowed to fly over the reactors without the proper clearance. Something
huge had definitely invaded the reactor's security zone and although I knew
something about the incident, I had none of the details that Jeff and his
fellow guards could give me.

 Many other people in the area also reported seeing the UFO over the
plant. Police in Pekskill New York which is the town just south of Indian
point said they received quite a few calls that evening. Sgt Hoffman of the
Peekskill Police Department went out to invesigate and saw a giant UFO with
over a dozen white lights in a V formation slowly move toward the Indian
Point power plant. Sgt Hoffman a trained observer admits that he never saw
anything like it before in his life. Although I had many other witnesses
who saw the UFO from outside the plant I still needed to find out what went
on inside the security area of the reactor during the sighting. The only
way that I was going to really find out is to talk to the people on duty
that night. Something extraordinary must have taken place for them to
quickly deny me to interview the guards, and what was the purpose of the
security shakeup?

 I decided to try to put a little pressure on the supervisors at the
plant. In the past several months I developed a good working relationship
with NBC news in New York City. They gave the UFO sightings in the Hudson
Valley top priority and I knew they would be very interested to hear about
the close encounter at Indian Point. I informed the manager at Indian point
that I was going to go to the TV news stations with the story unless I was
allowed to speak to the officers.

 After about an hour on the phone the manager finally agreed to let us
talk to the guards."We really would like to keep the entire incident quiet"
the manager said. " The reactor is highly controversial and we know that
the opponets against nuclear power in the area will use the sighting to
their advantage. They might claim that our security people are a risk
because they reported a flying saucer".

 I wondered if this was the real reason. After all, the plants security
was violated and it seemed that they had no power at all to stop the
intruder that appeared over their airspace. Although we now had permission
to talk with the guards, there were stipulations. A security person would
have to be present or informed on the content of the questions. They would
permit one meeting only and it could not be anywhere on the reactor site. I
also agreed not to release any information about the sighting over the
reactor for at least thirty days after the interview.

 The interview took place on September 12 in Peekskill, New York at a
local restaurant, at about 10:00pm. With me during the interview was UFO
researcher Fred Dennis, Fairfield Connecticut police Lt. George Lesnick and
Citizens Against UFO Secrecy(CAUS) attorney Peter Gersten. Six of the
guards showed up and because of the lateness of the hour, we were only able
to talk in depth with three at that time.

 Jeff told me that he had been working at Indian Point security for about
two years and before that he was a New York State Tropper. As we talked I
asked about the July 24th sighting and Jeff said that that was the second
sighting date. "Second I asked." Jeff told me that the first sighting of
the UFO was on July 14 at about 10:15 at night. Jeff said that he was on
outside patrol at Indian Point Number Three when he saw a series of lights
approaching the plant from the distance. I asked Jeff what he meant by
"number three" Jeff said that there were three reactors at the NYPA plant
and that two were shut down and the only reactor in operation was number
three. Because of this security is always "beefed up" at that site.

 Jeff continued to describe how the lights continued to approach. He
described the lights as being white with a yellow hue and about a quarter
of a mile away and moving very slow in his direction. Being  close to the
Consolidated Edison plant he looked and saw ten of their security people
also looking at the lights. Jeff then got on his radio and called some of
the other guards from his area to come and look at the lights. Jeff knew
this was something strange and wanted someone to come and assist him if he
needed help since the object was still heading directly toward the plant.
Jeff told me that two other guards responded to his call. As the two other
guards joined Jeff the object stopped and hovered about about a quarter
mile from the outer perimeter of the plant. Jeff described the object as
ten lights arranged in a boomerang pattern. The object continued to hover
for ten minutes, they could not make out any shape behind the lights. Jeff
told me that the lights were very bright and from its apparent size in the
sky he estimated that it was at least 300 feet from each end light on the
boomerang pattern.

 As they watched the object they noticed a dark mass behind the lights.
They thought this was very strange, since the lights were so bright they
should have made the body behind this object much more visible. The object
then started to move toward Peekskill at such a slow speed they estimated
it was no more than twenty miles an hour. Jeff and the other two guards(who
were also present at the meeting) had no doubt that what they were seeing
was not any aircraft or formation of aircraft, helicopters or anything else
they ever saw in their life.

 Jeff said that at the time of the sighting the wind was gusting up to 35
miles an hour. If this was a blimp or formation of small aircraft it could
have never hovered for ten minutes. "This thing was unaffected by the wind
he said" He also heard no sound at all. During the sighting they tried to
identify the aircraft by checking local and military air traffic, but all
proved negative. Jeff also said that they saw no familar naigation lights
which aircraft are required to carry.

 As they continued to watch the object move away they saw it turn to the
southeast. "As it turned" Jeff said, "It turned like it was lying on a
wheel, it rotated. It made a sharp ninety-degree turn and moved away very
slowly."

 I then asked Jeff about the July 24th sighting. Jeff said he first heard
about the UFO being seen again by a call on his radio. Another security
guard was talking to the inside desk how those lights were coming close to
the plant. At that time five guards including two supervisors responded to
the call and saw the lights, Jeff was with them. Jeff told me" It
approached from the same direction as the June 14th sighting, but this time
the lights were changing color. First they would all turn yellow, then
white and then they all turned blue. There were about fifteen lights this
time all arranged in a semi-circle with a red one flashing in the back. It
was a nice clear night and as the object approached the plant it blocked
out the stars. The night sky in that area is heavily light poluted and you
could see a dark mass against the brighter night sky. The object came right
over the plant and there was no sound at all. I got to within 500 feet from
it. It looked like an icecream cone with the lights in a half circle in the
front and a red one in its tail. You could see the solid body it covered up
the entire sky and was the size of at least three football fields. At this
time it was directly over our heads, and we were looking up at it. It was
moving very slowly and I could keep up with it at a slow walk, so it must
have been going slower than ten miles an hour. No aircraft could stay
airborne moving at that slow speed."

 Jeff said that he and the other guards watched it for about twenty
minutes and all the time they were in radio contact with security
headquarters inside the plant.

 Jeff said that out of the three reactors only one was in operation and
the UFO picked that one to hover and then fly over. He also said that the
object was very low, no more than 300 feet above the exhaust tower, that
would place it about 700 feet above the ground. "Our supervisor got worried
when it flew over the working reactor", Jeff said. "This thing got to
within thirty feet of reactor number three"

 As with the first sighting, the winds were gusting. A check with the
Westchester County Airport showed that the winds during the July 24th
sighting  gusted at 40 miles an hour.

 "We were standing there with our mouths open", Jeff said " We were in awe
of it!. If the thing stayed over us, the order was already given to get
ready to shoot it down. We had shotguns and were waiting for the final word
to fire upon it"

 Another guard who we shall call Robert was on duty inside, watching the TV
monitors at the security console that allows him to point the surveillance
cameras at all parts of the plant. Robert told me that he pointed a camera
that was located on a ninety-five foot pole at the object. When the object
came on the screen he and the supervisor were shocked. Robert told me." I
saw eight bright lights in a V shape, very wide in the shape of almost a
half circle. The lights were very bright, at least as bright as the landing
lights on a large jet. My supervisor and I panned the camera up and down,
and the object was very large, bigger than a football field".

 Robert said that the object was so huge that he had to pan the camera 180
degrees to see the entire UFO!  He said that there was no doubt that it was
one solid structure and I had it on the camera for fifteen minutes. Still
shaken by the event Robert concluded by saying " I was trying to find some
logical explanation for this. Whatever it was, it was larger than a C-5A
which is the largest aircraft in the world and has a wingspan of 212 feet.
If this thing were placed alongside this aircraft the C-5A would look like
a toy. It seemed very brazen and just sat there in the sky for my camera,
it acted like it didn't care who saw it".

 Another guard who I shall refer to as Mike told me" There was this series
of lights in a boomerang pattern, and behind the lights was this dark
structure, and there were these things on the bottom of the object that
looked like hollow spheres of some sort. They looked like portals that
could open up and rockets or something could fly out of there. These
portals were so large that you could fit a car in them easily. I got a good
look at it, it was very low. It was so close to us that I actually got
scared looking at it."

 I then asked Jeff if the incident was reported, he told me that they did
file a report and were ready to take action, but then the object moved away
toward the Hudson and  picked up speed and was gone. I was told at the time
that plant operations were in no way affected. The interview ended at this
time.

 As we walked to our cars outside Jeff offered to take me over to the
plant and sneak me on to show me where he saw the object. I was ready to
go, but turned down the offer because of the sound advice of Fred Dennis.
Fred was worried that if I was caught charges could be brought against me
and Jeff could lose his job. Before we parted Jeff told me that he was very
interested in finding out what he saw and would "Keep on searching  for
answers".

 On the way home Fred and I talked about what we were told. We both agreed
that they seemed a little worried about relating the story and very
uneased. We were to learn later that a security supervisor was several
tables away listening to the entire conversation. Also there was no doubt
in our mind that the guards were debriefed about their sighting and were
told what they could tell us and could not tell us.

One week latter Jeff gave me a call and said that he would like to meet
with me again. There was a number of things which he was not a liberty to
talk about at the time. He said that much more happened during the July
24th sighting and he has to meet with me.

 The second meeting with Jeff took place on October 4th at a place called
the By Pass Diner in Peekskill, New York. This time Jeff was in civilian
clothes. He insisted that he not be tape recorded and proceeded to fill in
the gaps of the Close Encounter over Reactor number Three at Indian Point.

Part II of Incident at Indian Point will be uploaded soon.Details of my
investigations in the Hudson Valley are documented in my book NIGHT SIEGE
THE HUDSON VALLEY UFO SIGHTINGS which I coauthored with Dr. J. Allen Hynek
and Bob Pratt.

                           Incident At Indian Point
                                    Part II

                            By: Philip J. Imbrogno


 In the first part of this article I presented a very dramatic sighting of
a UFO by New York State Power Authority Police officers stationed at the
Indian Point Nuclear reactor in Buchanan, New York. The guards at the
Indian point complex had a close encounter with a UFO that has been
appearing in the Hudson Valley area of New York for the past six
years.These sightings are documented in my book NIGHT SIEGE THE HUDSON
VALLEY UFO SIGHTINGS, (Ballantine Books 1987).

 The sighting of the UFO from the reactor area took place on July 24th
1984 at about 10:20.PM. The sighting took place on the same night the UFO
was video taped in Brewster, New York which is located about twenty miles
east of Buchanan. This video tape was looked at twice by scientists from
the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California and the image on the
video still remains unidentified to this day. The entire Indian point
sighting was brought to my attention when one of the guards at the plant
contacted me. To protect his identity I refer to him as "Jeff". Had it not
been for Jeff coming forward with his story, the entire incredible sighting
at Indian Point would have never been known. The Indian Point incident is
the first case where a UFO was confirmed being over a Nuclear Reactor.

 My first meeting with Jeff (as reported in the last issue of UFO
Universe) covered the basic facts of a truly amazing encounter by 12 guards
at the reactor complex with a UFO that was reported to have hovered 300
feet above reactor number three for fifteen minutes. The UFO according to
several of the officers was at least 900 feet from end to end.

 The second meeting with Jeff was at his request, since at the first
meeting he was relactant to get into any details. I agreed to meet with him
on October 4th 1984, at 11:00 Pm at a place called the By- Pass Diner in
Peekskill, New York. Jeff showed up on time and was in civilan clothes. He
insisted that he not be taped recorded and proceeded to fill in the gaps in
the information that he gave me at our previous meeting. Jeff focused in on
the July 24th sighting, since this was the date that the UFO caused a near
panic at the reactor complex. With me at this second meeting was Fred
Dennis, a seasoned UFO investigator and close friend.

 The July 24th 1984 encounter was more incredible than we first thought.
As the object approached the east gate of the reactor complex the sensors
that detect movement shut down and the entire alarm system failed. At this
time Jeff radioed for assistance and several other officers left their
posts and joined him at the east end of the plant to watch the object
approach. Inside the security console the computer that controls all
security and communications shut down. The cameras were still however
functioning and we know for sure that the object was video taped. To this
day , however the New York Power Authority (NYPA), and the Nuclear
Regulatory Commission (NRC), deny that any such tape or recordings exist.

 The UFO continued to approach and hovered above reactor number three, the
only reactor operational at the time. The commander at the plant took the
proper action and the guards were armed with shot guns and given the order
to fire upon the UFO if it did not move away from the plant. Although the
entire plants security was alerted and the officers were well armed they
felt helpless and were afarid to fire upon the object because its size
overwhelmed them. The object was reported to have been the size of three
football fields and its bright white lights glared out the entire sky.

 One female officer was on a nearby plant building and started to draw her
weapon, but put it away when she realized that her hand gun would have no
effect on an object of that size. At least 12 guards were called to the
scene all armed a ready for the final order to open fire upon the UFO.

The commander of security then called Camp Smith, an New York National
Guard base located north of Peekskill, New York and requested air support
to shoot down the intruder. The commander also requested identification of
the object, but no agency that was contacted could identify the intruder. I
am not sure if the communication o Camp Smith was done by phone or radio. I
was informed that most security communications are done by computer to
computer, but since the computer was down radio or phone must have been
used. As the helicopter left the Camp, the object moved away from the
plant. It was as if who ever was in the giant UFO knew and moved away to
avoid a confrontation.

I am not sure if the helicopter pilots ever saw the UFO. I do have some
unconfirmed sightings from Peekskill residents who saw a helicopter
following the UFO. he helicopter was observed in bincoulars by one
Peekskill resident  Vietnam Veteran who said it was a "gunship" similar to
the "choppers" used in the war.

 The UFO then picked up speed and was soon lost in the North West section
of the sky, somewhere over the Hudson River. At the time of the sighting,
hundreds of Peekskill residents were calling police reporting the UFO. I
talked with a number of residents who saw the object move away from the
Nuclear power plant. Their description of the object are identical to what
the guards  Indian Point saw over the reactor.

 The next day the commander called in all the guards involved and informed
them that "Nothing Happened". They were all ordered to forget the entire
incident. All radio communications that night were taped, but according to
the plant supervisor the tapes no longer exist. I was informed that they
only keep the tapes for a short time, then they erase them and use them
over. I talked with several people who work in security, one of them for
another nuclear plant. I was told by this security expert that the tapes
are kept if an incident took place. I was also told that all the security
cameras at a Nuclear plant use video tape, and that the tape is turned on
if an incident takes place. Yet, the NYPA denies using any video during the
UFO incident.

 Fred and I met with Jeff for about one hour and thirty minutes that
night. As we walked out to our cars Jeff told us that he would keep in
touch and give us any new information that might come up. We did not know
at the time that security at the plant was already covering up the incident
and we would never hear from Jeff again.

Fred and I began to drive back to Greenwich Connecticut taking route 9
through Ossining, New York. The time was about one in the morning and we
were both pretty tired, but still excited about the story we were just
told. After all, these were well trained ex-New York State Cops. There was
no doubt that they saw something that was not of coventional origin. But
what was it? How could something the size of three football fields fly over
three counties, hover over a nuclear reactor for fifteen minutes, then
disappear without a trace? How could the entire event take place without
sometype of military involvement? These were questions that we could not
answer,but it seemed clear that the military had no power over the
mysterious visitor that night.

 We continued to drive, the night was clear and chilly. I looked toward
the south and saw a number of flashing lights about forty five degrees from
us. The lights flashed in sequence and were very bright. I said to Fred"
What's that", Fred replied "THAT'S IT!. Fred Stopped the car and I turned
around to look for the binoculars in the back seat. I could not find the
binoculars so I turned around once again to see the lights. We saw about
five lights that were mostly white in color, but seemed to have a slight
lime green tinge to them. As we watched the lights, ( which were in the
shape of a half circle) turned on their side like a ferris wheel and rolled
toward the west. We lost the object behind some trees, so we moved the car
to clear the trees. When we did the lights could not be found, they were
gone. It was like they never existed, they just vanished!

 There was no doubt that the lights were connected some some solid object.
We heard no noise and although this object was large,, it seemed very thin.
Also we never really saw any dark structure connecting the lights. I
thought I may have seen a dark mass behind the lights when I first saw
them, but I can't say for sure. How strange, this was our first sighting of
the Hudson Valley UFO and it took us quite by surprise. We never expected
to see anything. In the past the UFO always appeared between eight and ten
PM, we only had one or two other cases of sightings later than midnite.
Also, was it just a coincidence that the object appeared to us after our
interview with Jeff? Although we only saw this object for about thirty
seconds it was enough to keep us excited for weeks. I can see why Jeff and
his fellow officers were awed by this object.

 I filed a number of Freedom of Information Act requests (FOIA) with the
Nuclear Requlatory Commission. The response from them indicated that they
had no record of the event taking place. I also filed an FOIA with Indian
Point. I was informed by the manager of the plant that the NYPA is not
subject to the Freedom of Information Act. I was also told that no
information on the incident would be released because it could possibly
jeopardize plant security.

On October 29th 1984 Fred and I were once again in the Westchester area
doing some follow up research. At 9:00 I called my home to see if there
were any messages, indeed there were many. It seems that there were UFO
sightings over Westchester and Putnam county that night. Most of the calls
came from local residents and local police from Westchester towns. All the
reports were similar a giant well lite object the size of a football field
sporting multicolored lights. One call came from radio station WVIP in Mt.
Kisco New York. The local newsperson video taped the object that night. I
then called the station and went over to see it since we were only about
twenty minutes from there.

 Fred and I arrived at the station and wwere greeted by veteranNewsman
Gerry Culliton. Mr. Cullition told me that at about 8:15 they started to
get  calls about a UFO heading toward the direction of the station. He then
hooked up a portable VCR camera and went outside and saw a series of bright
lights approaching the station from the east. The lights passed at about a
thirty degree angle from the station. The lights then turned and went to
the northwest.

  He then began playing the video tape for us, it showed a series of
lights that were flashing. The tape was interesting but not as good as the
video taken in Brewster, New York on July 24, 1984. As we watched the tape
Mr. Culliton asked me if I would do a special news report for the station
concerning the recent UFO sightings. I did the story and also mentioned the
 sightings at Indian Point that took place several months before. The story
was aired that night and several times during the following day.

 The next day (October 30th) I received a call from the Reporter Dispatch,
a local Westchester county newspaper. The reporter called me to get more
information about the Indian Point sightings. He had already called the
Reactor plant and talked with the spokesman a Mr. Carl Patrick. The
reporter informed me that Mr. Patrick confirmed the sighting of a UFO by
security guards on duty at the Indian Point complex 3. The reporter then
did a story which came out the next day. When I picked up the paper I was
shocked to see the headline on the front page "DID ALIENS BUZZ INDIAN
POINT". I had wished they would have played it down a little since neither
I or the guards at Indian Point claimed that the UFO was an alien
spaceship.

 Gerry Culliton from WVIP radio was also doing his own investigation into
the sightings over Indian Point. Gerry is an excellent newsperson and will
dig and dig until he gets the facts on a story. Gerry gave me a call to
tell me what he found out.Although the conversation was about thiry minutes
long, I edited out much of the material and included the important facts.

Gerry: We released the story and got a good number of calls from
newspapers and the people at Indian Point.

Phil: My concern is not to get anybody in trouble.

Gerry: we didn't release any of the guards names. Indian point admitted to
the sightings to me. I called Carl Patrick at Indian Point and I talked to
him. He told me yes, there definitely were sightings. He said that the
State Police did an investigation and arrested four Cessna pilots.

Phil: I heard that story. I called the New York State Police and nobody
was arrested.

Gerry: I know that's what I told them, I checked on it. I asked him if
they made out and incident report and I asked for a copy. He told me " Yes,
we did, but the report is not available and all security measures have been
taken to protect our own security" I then said," OK can you tell me if they
fired upon the thing?" he said, and I quote, "I can not confirm or deny
that the guards fired upon it, but they did what was necessary to protect
the plant".

Phil: I think this story has gone out of being just another UFO story. It
seems its a matter of an unkown object violating the security of a nuclear
reactor.

Gerry: The newspaper seems to be more interested in a story about Indian
Points security rather than the UFO sighting.

 Several hours after the article appeared in the Westchester paper I
received a call from the cheif of security from the New York Power
Authority in New York City. This person informed me that they were well
aware of my second meeeting with Jeff and that I was told information that
was vital to Indian Point security. They also knew that I was planning to
write a book about the Hudson Valley sightings(now published) and because
of security reasons I was going to be forced to not mention anything about
the Indian Point sightings.

 In the following days I got several more calls from the NYPA and this time
they wanted me to come to a hearing in New York city. They wanted to know
everything I was told about the incident. At the time I was working closely
with John G. Fuller ( author of Incident at Exeter and the Interrupted
Journey,the story of Barney and Betty Hill) John had written a book about
the dangers of nuclear reactors and was very experienced with their
security people since they tried to block his book. John told me to release
all the facts about the sightings and to ignore their threats. I did both.
The Indian point sightings were exposed nation wide for the first time in
the TV show "INTO THE UNKOWN" I never heard from the the NYPA after that.

 As the months went by I began to make some contacts with a number of
employees at Indian Point. I was told that since the sighting government
people came on a regular basis to the plant. I was also told that
sophisticated electronic and optical equipment was placed on the roof of
the largest building at the reactor site. The equipment was being operated
by government agents and staffed twenty four hours a day.

 I was still hoping to get something on record, a document, tape recording
ect. Something to prove some of the stories I was being told. I later found
out that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission came in the day after the
sighting and cleaned out the file cabients and took all audio and video
tapes. These documents and tapes must have been turned over to another
agency, since the NRC and Indian point claim they have no documents of
anykind concerning the July 24th 1984 UFO encounter.

 I continued to gather information from my informers. I found out that
reactor number three had a crack in its casing which the plant officials
were trying to keep hidden from the public. According to my information the
crack appeared after the July 24th encounter. This crack was later
confirmed in 1988 when New York TV news stations carried a story about the
reactor casing being cracked and "small" amounts of radioactive steam being
released. It seems that my contacts did have accurate information and to
this day I am still getting information about the UFO incident and I now
have more faith in my informers.

 I was also told of a power drain which the military and NRC were very
concerned about. It seems that somewhere along the line, power was being
drained off. The feeling was that the power drain was actually power being
stolen, but by who. One of my contacts who works in the high security area
overheard a conversation between an Airforce Colonel and a number of plain
clothes government agents (agency unkown) and plant managers. Although most
of the conversation was in whispers,my informer was able to determine that
it did concern the power drain. The Colonel then yelled as if in anger to
the other men, and this was heard very clear by my contact: " I don't care
if they are from outer space shoot them"

 Over the past several years I have seen most of the details of the Indian
Point UFO encounter confirmed. In 1987 I spoke at the first Omega
Communications UFO conference in North Haven, Connecticut. After my talk I
was approached by a gentleman who was heavily involved in the creation and
supervising of security at nuclear reactor plants in the State of
Connecticut. He told me that he read the chapter about Indian Point in
NIGHT SIEGE and they he knew all the guards and people involved and that he
talked with them. He then said "Phil, everything you said in the book was
correct, you were right on target". He later told me that a great deal more
took place than what was covered in the book, but he really could not talk
about it.

 I will continue to investigate the Indian Point sightings. Hopefully,
someday soon I will have documents to tell the entire story.

--- EOF ---

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: California UFO Sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 19:56:59 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 1107
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2202 alt.conspiracy:7689 sci.skeptic:15658




----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------



Message #7645 - BAMA
   Date : 22-Sep-91  1:18
   From : John Powell
     To : James Nugent
Subject : CA PBB Unknowns, 1/2

California sightings from the Project Blue Book Unknowns:
-+---------------------------------------------------------------------------

       July 6, 1947; Fairfield-Suisan Air Base, California. Daytime.
       Witnesses:  Army Air Forces Capt. and Mrs. James Burniston.
       Watched for 1 minute while one object having no wings or tail
       rolled from side-to-side three times and then flew away very fast
       to the southeast.

       July 8, 1947; Muroc Air Base, California. 9:30 a.m. PDT.
       Witnesses:  lst Lt. Joseph McHenry, T/Sgt Ruvolo, S/Sgt Nauman,
       Miss Janette Scotte. Watched for an unstated length of time
       while two disc-shaped or spherical objects--silver and apparently
       metallic--flew a wide circular pattern, and then one of them
       later flew a tighter circle.

       July 29, 1947; Hamilton Air Base, California. 2:50 p.m. PDT.
       Witnesses:  Assistant Base Operations Officer Capt. William
       Rhyerd, ex-AAF B-29 pilot Ward Stewart. Watched for unknown
       length of time while two round, shiny, white objects with
       estimated 15-25 foot diameters, flew 3-4 times the apparent speed
       of a P-80, also in sight. One object flew straight and level;
       the other weaved from side-to-side like an escort fighter.

       Sept. 23, 1948; San Pablo, California.  12 noon.  Witnesses:
       Sylvester Bentham and retired U.S. Army Col. Horace Eakins. Two
       objects:  one, a buff or grey rectangle with vertical lines; the
       other a translucent "amoeba" with a dark spot near the center.
       The arms of the "amoeba" undulated. Both objects travelled very
       fast.

       Dec. 3, 1948; Fairfield-Suisan AFB, California. 8:15 p.m.
       Witness:  USAF Sgt., control tower operator.  One round, white
       light flew for 25 seconds with varying speed, bouncing motion,
       and finally a rapid erratic climb.

       April 4, 1949; Merced, California. 10:20 p.m.  witness:  William
       Parrott, former Air Force pilot and major.  One generally round
       object with a curved bottom and dull coloring.  The object gave
       off a clicking sound until overhead.  Parrott's dog reacted. 35
       seconds.

       May 6, 1949; Livermore, California. 9:35 a.m.  Witness:  C. G.
       Green. Two shiny, disc-like objects rotated around each other
       and banked.  Then one shot upwards with a grey trail and rejoined
       the other.  The sighting lasted 5 minutes.

       Mar. 13, 1951; McClellan AFB, California. 3:20 p.m. Witnesses:
       USAF lst Lt. B.J. Hastie, Mrs. Rafferty. A cylinder with twin
       tails, 200' long and 90' wide, turned north and flew at
       incredible speed.  Two minutes.

       Sept. 6, 1951; Claremont, California.  7:20 p.m.  (not really
       clear).  Witnesses:  S/Sgt W.T. Smith, M/Sgt L.L. Duel (?). Six
       orange lights in an irregular formation, flew straight and level
       into a coastal fog bank after 3-4 minutes.

       March 24, 1952; 60 miles west of Pt. Concepcion, California.
       8:45 a.m.  Witnesses:  B-29 navigator and radar operator.  One
       target tracked for 20-30 seconds at estimated 3,000 m.p.h.

       April 15, 1952; Santa Cruz, California.  7:40 p.m.  Witness:  Mr.
       Hayes, brother of Master Sergeant. Two faint objects observed
       flying fast along the horizon for 6-8 seconds, using 20x spotting
       telescope.

       May 1, 1952; George AFB, California.  10:50 a.m.  Witnesses:
       three men on the arms range, plus one Lt. Colonel 4 miles away.
       Five flat-white discs about the diameter of a C-47's wingspan
       (95') flew fast, made a 90^ turn in a formation of three in front
       and two behind, and darted around, for 15-30 seconds.

       May 9, 1952; George AFB, California.  5:20 p.m.  Witness:  A/lc
       G.C. Grindeland. One dull white, arrowhead-shaped object flew
       straight and level for 10 seconds.

       July 26, 1952; Williams, California.  Case missing from official
       files.

       July 29, 1952; Merced, California.  3:44 or 4:35 p.m.  Witnesses:
       Herbert Mitchell and one employee.  One dark, discus-shaped
       object, trailed by a silvery light 2 lengths behind, tipped on
       its side, dove, hesitated and then circled very fast during the 2
       minute sighting.

       Aug. 1, 1952; Lancaster, California.  1:14 a.m.  Witnesses:
       sheriff's deputies and other persons, one named Mallette. Two
       brilliant red lights hovered and maneuvered for 5 minutes.

       Aug. 18, 1952; Fairfield, California.  12:50 a.m.  Witnesses:
       three policemen.  One object changed color like a diamond, and
       changed directions during the 30 minute sighting.

       Aug. 19, 1952; Red Bluff, California.  2:38 p.m.  Witness:
       Ground Observer Corps observer Albert Lathrop. Two objects,
       shaped like fat bullets, flew straight and level, very fast for
       25 seconds.

       Sept. 14, 1952; Santa Barbara, California. 8:40 p.m. Witness:
       USAF C-54 transport pilot Tarbutton.  One blue-white light
       travelled straight and level, then went up.  Seen for 30 seconds.

       Sept. 27, 1952; Inyokern, California.  10 p.m.  Witnesses:  two
       couples, using a 5x telescope.  One large, round object, which
       went through the color spectrum every 2 seconds, was seen to fly
       straight and level for 15 minutes.

       Dec. 28, 1952; Marysville, California.  Case missing from
       official files.

--- XRS! 4.50+
 * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19)



Message #7646 - BAMA
   Date : 22-Sep-91  1:19
   From : John Powell
     To : James Nugent
Subject : CA PBB Unknowns, 2/2

California sightings from the Project Blue Book Unknowns:
-+---------------------------------------------------------------------------

       Jan. 10, 1953; Sonoma, California.  3:45 p.m.  or 4 p.m.
       Witnesses:  retired Col. Robert McNab, and Mr. Hunter of the
       Federal Security Agency. One flat object, like a pinhead, made
       three 360* right turns in 9 seconds, made abrupt 90* turns to the
       right and left, stopped, accelerated to original speed and
       finally flew out of sight vertically after 60-75 seconds.

       Jan. 28, 1953; Pt. Mugu, California.  1 p.m.  Witness:  R.W.
       Love, owner of Love Diving Co., engaged in retrieving radio-
       controlled drones.  An 18-20' white, flat disc flew straight and
       level, overhead, for 6 minutes.

       Jan. 28, 1953; Corona, California.  6:05 p.m.  Witness:  USAF
       T/Sgt. George Beyer. Five 25' green spheres flew in V-formation,
       then changed to trail formation at which time the end objects
       turned red.  Sighting lasted 12 minutes.

       Feb. 20, 1953; Pittsburg-Stockton, California. #1 time unknown;
       #2, 10:30 p.m.  Witnesses:  USAF B-25 bomber pilots. #1 was a
       bright yellow light seen for 8 minutes.  #2 was a bright light
       which flew on a collision course, dimmed and climbed away fast.

       Aug. 20, 1953; near Castle AFB, California. 9:05 p.m.
       Witnesses:  crew of TB-29 bomber/trainer plane.  One greyish oval
       object made four passes at the airplane (three times at 10-20
       miles distance), then dived vertically as if two objects.

       Dec. 24, 1953; El Cajon, California.  8:04 a.m.  Witnesses:  U.S.
       Navy Lts. J.B. Howard and L.D. Linhard, flying F9F-2 jet
       fighters.  Ten silver, oval objects flew at more than 400 kts.
       (450 m.p.h.), straight and level, for 5 minutes.

       Dec. 28, 1953; Marysville, California.  11:55 a.m.  Witness:
       Yuba County Airport Manager Dick Brandt. One saucer, with a
       brilliant blue light, reflecting on a nearby building, hovered
       briefly during the 1.5 minute observation.

       May 10, 1954; Elsinore, California.  12:40 p.m.  Witness:  U.S.
       Marine Corps Squadron Leader D.R. Higgin, flying an F3D-2 jet
       fighter.  One dark gunmetal delta-shaped object, 22' long and 10'
       wide, with a fin on the top, descended at a 25-30' angle under
       the lead airplane of a formation, and over the airplane of
       Higgin. Sighting lasted a few seconds.

       July 30, 1954; Los Angeles, California. 10:15 a.m. Witness:
       Hughes Aircraft test pilots Englert and Peterson, flying a B-25
       bomber.  One metallic, pencil-shaped object flew slowly or
       hovered for an unstated length of time.

       Sept. 21, 1954; Barstow, California.  1 a.m.  Witnesses:  two
       local policemen, four U.S. Marine Corps police, one highway
       patrolman.  One red-orange ball giving off sparks, and a smaller
       light, made a zigzag descent and then hovered.  Total of 20
       minutes.

       Feb. 2, 1955; Miramar Naval Air Station, California. 11:50 a.m.
       Witness:  USN Cmdr. J.L. Ingersoll.  One highly polished sphere,
       with reddish-brown coloring, fell, then instantly accelerated to
       1,000-1,500 m.p.h.

       June 6, 1956; Banning, California.  5:30 a.m.  Witness:  Mr.
       Bierman. One thin disc with a small dome, shimmering silver,
       hovered about 100 yards away for 8-10 seconds, then zoomed up.

       March 14, 1958; Healdsburg, California. 8:45 a.m. Witnesses:
       Mr. and Mrs. W.F. Cummings and one other.  A 3' round, black
       object touched the ground and then took off.  Watched for 2
       minutes.

       Sept. 10, 1960; Ridgecrest, California. 9:50 p.m. Witnesses:
       Mr. and Mrs. M.G. Evans. Two light gray glowing objects, saucer
       or boomerang-shaped, which swished when accelerating.  Seen 1-2
       seconds each.

       Nov. 27, 1960; Chula Vista, California. 7:30 p.m. Witnesses:
       Mr. and Mrs. L.M. Hart. One orange-red point of light made huge
       circles and stopped during the 20-30 minute sighting.

       Sept. 14, 1963; Susanville, California. 3:15 p.m. Witness:
       E.A. Grant, veteran of 37 years training forest fire lookouts for
       the U.S. Forest Service. One round object intercepted a long
       object and either attached itself to the latter or disappeared.
       Sighting lasted l0 minutes.

       Aug. 15, 1964; Yosemite National Park, California. 8:15 a.m.
       Witnesses:  E.J. Haug, of the San Francisco Orchestra and the San
       Francisco Conservatory of Music; and C.R. Bubb, a high school
       mathematics teacher.  Three bright silver, round objects, in a
       stack formation, flew very fast, changing positions within the
       formation.  The sound of rushing air was heard during the 3-4
       second sighting.

       April 30, 1966; Sacramento, California. 3:15 a.m. Witness:
       Anita Miller. One light moved around the sky for 2.5 hours.  No
       further detail in files.

--- XRS! 4.50+
 * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19)



Message #7647 - BAMA
   Date : 22-Sep-91  1:20
   From : John Powell
     To : James Nugent
Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 1/8

 Report #: 2
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 10-20-1985
  Subject: SANTA MONICA, CALIF

CASE TYPE:  CE I - NOCTURNAL LIGHT
     DATE:  14 OCTOBER 1985
     TIME:  2048 HOURS
     CFN#:  0128
   SOURCE:  NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER
 ----------------------------------------
SIX WITNESSES REPORTED OBSERVING A LARGE OBJECT IN THE WESTERN SKY.  THE
WITNESSES SAID THAT THE OBJECT APPEARED TO HAVE SOME TYPE OF FLUORESCENT
LIGHTING ON IT.  THE DISTANCE OF THE OBJECT IS UNKNOWN THE DURATION IS ALSO
UNKNOWN.
 ----------------------------------------

 Report #: 3
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 10-21-1985
  Subject: KERMAN, CALIF

CASE TYPE:  CE I - DAYLIGHT SIGHTING
     DATE:  15 OCTOBER 1985
     TIME:  1213 HOURS
     CFN#:  0129
   SOURCE:  NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER
 --------------------------------------------
ONE WITNESS REPORTED SIGHTING A VERY LARGE OBJECT AT A HIGH ALTITUDE.  THE
WITNESS SAID THAT THE OBJECT WAS MOVING AT A HIGH RATE OF SPEED.  THE WITNESS
SAID THAT THE OBJECT LOOKED LIKE A WHITE BALL.  HE ALSO SAID THAT THE OBJECT
DID NOT LEAVE A VAPOR TRAIL.  THE WITNESS DID NOT DETECT ANY SOUND COMING FROM
THE OBJECT.  THE DURATION OF THE SIGHTING WAS 15 TO 20 SECONDS.
 ------------------------------------------

 Report #: 9
     From: SYSOP
Date Sent: 10-22-1985
  Subject: LOS ANGELES, CALIF

CASE TYPE:  CE I - DAYLIGHT SIGHTING
     DATE:  18 OCTOBER 1985
     TIME:  1515 HOURS
     CFN#:  0135
   SOURCE:  NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER
 ---------------------------------------
FIVE WITNESSES REPORTED OBSERVING THREE WHITE OBJECTS.  THESE OBJECTS WERE
GIVING OFF ALOT OF SURFACE REFLECTION THE WIT- NESSES SAID.  THE OBJECTS
APPEARED TO BE MOVING AT A VERY SLOW SPEED.  THE OBJECTS WERE MOVING IN A EAST
TO NORTH NORTHWEST COURSE.  THE WITNESSES SAID THAT THE ALTITUDE OF THE
OBJECTS WERE APPROXIMATELY 500 FEET GIVE OR TAKE A LITTLE.  THE OBJECTS WERE
ABOUT THREE FEET IN DIAMETER.  ONE WITNESS STATED HE WORK IN THIS AREA FOR A
LONG TIME AND WAS FAMILAR WITH THE AIR TRAFFIC.  THE WITNESSES SAID THAT WHILE
THE SIGHTING WAS GOING ON THERE WASN'T ANY AIR TRAFFIC AT ALL OVER THE LOS
ANGELES, INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT.  THE WITNESSES ALSO SAID THAT WHILE THE
SIGHTING WAS GOING ON THEY SAW THE GOODYEAR BLIMP COMING THERE WAY TOWARD THE
AIRPORT BUT THEN THE BLIMP TURNED AND STARTED TO LEAVE THE AREA AND DID SO.
THE WITNESSES ALSO SAID THAT THERE WERE PROBABLY OTHERS WATCHING BECAUSE THIS
IS IN A INDUSTRIAL AREA.  THE DURATION OF THE SIGHTING WAS 20 MINUTES.

IF ANY PERSON HAVING ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ABOUT THIS CASE PLEASE LEAVE US A
NOTE ON THE E-MAIL SYSTEM.  THANK YOU
 --------------------------------------

 Report #: 11
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 10-23-1985
  Subject: SANTA MONICA, CA

CASE TYPE:  CE I - NL
     DATE:  13 OCTOBER 1985
     TIME:  2130 HOURS
     CFN#:  0137
   SOURCE   NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER
 ---------------------------------------
ONE WITNESS REPORTED OBSERVING A BIG PALE GREEN BALL OF LIGHT AT A ANGULAR
DESCENT.  THE WITNESS SAID THAT THE GREEN BALL OF LIGHT WAS MOVING TO THE
NORTH-WEST FOR ABOUT OR APPROXIMATELY THREE SECONDS.   THE WITNESS SAID THAT
THE GREEN BALL OF LIGHT WAS AT A LOW ALITIUDE.  THE DURATION OF THE SIGHTING
WAS THREE SECONDS.
 --------------------------------------

 Report #: 13
     From: SYSOP
Date Sent: 11-14-1985
  Subject: NEWPORT BEACH, CA

CASE TYPE:   CE I
     DATE:   14 OCTOBER 1985
     TIME:   0100 HOURS
     CFN#:   0139
   SOURCE:   NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER
 ----------------------------------------
BRONZE COLOR OBJECT WITH PAINTED NOSE WENT INTO A HIGH SPEED VERTICAL DIVE
THEN LEVELED OFF.  WITNESSES SAID OBJECT WAS TRIANGULAR SHAPED.  DESCRIBED BY
TWO WITNESSES AS BEING HUGE.
 ---------------------------------------

 Report #: 16
     From: SYSOP
Date Sent: 11-14-1985
  Subject: ATASCADERO, CA

CASE TYPE:   CE II
     DATE:   21 OCTOBER 1985
     TIME:   2210 HOURS
     CFN#:   0142
   SOURCE:   NAT'L REPORTING CENTER
 ------------------------------------
ONE WITNESS OBSERVED A RECTANGULAR SHAPED OBJECT WITH COLORED LIGHTS AT WHAT
WAS DESCRIBED TO BE A LOW ALTITUDE.  DURATION OF SIGHTING WAS TWO MINUTES.
 ------------------------------------

--- XRS! 4.50+
 * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19)



Message #7648 - BAMA
   Date : 22-Sep-91  1:22
   From : John Powell
     To : James Nugent
Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 2/8

 Report #: 18
     From: SYSOP
Date Sent: 11-14-1985
  Subject: SAN RAFAEL, CA

CASE TYPE:   CE I - DS
     DATE:   25 OCTOBER 1985
     TIME:   0830 HOURS
     CFN#:   0144
   SOURCE:   NAT'L REPORTING CENTER
 ------------------------------------
A WITNESS REPORTED SEEING A WIDE-WINGED OBJECT WHICH WAS CURVED IN FRONT AND
HAD COLORED LIGHTS.  OBJECT WAS AT FIRST STATIONARY,  AND THEN MOVED ABOUT
BEFORE ASCENDING AT A HIGH SPEED AND DISAPPEARING WITHIN ABOUT 2 SECONDS.  THE
OBSERVER DESCRIBED THE OBJECT AS LARGE.  DURATION OF SIGHTING WAS
APPROXIMATELY TWENTY SECONDS.
 ------------------------------------

 Report #: 24
     From: SYSOP
Date Sent: 11-14-1985
  Subject: SAN MARCOS, CA

CASE TYPE:   CE I
     DATE:   30 OCTOBER 1985
     TIME:   1700 HOURS
     CFN#:   0150
   SOURCE:   NAT'L REPORTING CENTER
 ------------------------------------
ONE WITNESS REPORTED SEEING A WHITE OBJECT MOVING ACROSS THE SKY AT AN ANGULAR
ASCENT.  THE OBSERVER SAID THE OBJECT WAS FOLLOWED BY A FLASH IN THE SKY.
 ------------------------------------

 Report #: 37
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 01-09-1986
  Subject: ROSEVILLE, CA.

CASE TYPE:   CE I - NL
     DATE:   3 JANUARY 1986
     TIME:   20:20 HOURS
     CFN#:   0163
   SOURCE:   NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER
 -----------------------------------------
THREE WITNESSES OBSERVED CIRCULAR OBJECT APROXIMATENLY 300 FEET IN DIAMETER
DIRECTLY OVER THEM THE OBJECT THEN MADE A 90 DEGREE TURN WENT INTO A FAST
SPEED AND DISAPEARED OUT OF SIGHT.  WITNESSES SAID WHILE OBSERVING THE OBJECT
IT MADE A RUMBLING SOUND AND SHOOK A HOUSE AND A BARN DURATION OF THE SIGHTING
WAS APROXIMATELY 20 SECONDS.
 ----------------------------------------

 Report #: 39
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 01-31-1986
  Subject: EDWARDS A.F.B., CA

CASE TYPE:   CE I - EM
     DATE:   19 JANUARY 1986
     TIME:   07:00 HOURS
     CFN#:   0165
   SOURCE:   NAT`L UFO REPORTING CENTER
 -----------------------------------------
WHILE DRIVING SOUTH ON HIGHWAY U.S. 395 NEAR EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE TWO
WITNESSES REPORTED OBSERVING A STATIONARY LONG RECTANGULAR SHAPED OBJECT.  THE
WITNESSES SIAD THAT THE OBJECT WAS A BRIGHT SILVER IN ITS COLOR.  THE
WITNESSES ALSO SIAD WHEN THEY WERE NEAR THE OBJECT THERE RADIO HAD A LOT OF
STATIC ON IT. i.e. E-M,. THE WITNESSES SIAD WHEN THEY STOP THE CAR THE OBJECT
HAD DISAPPEARED.  TOTAL DURATION OF SIGHTING: TEN MINUTES.
 ----------------------------------------

 Report #: 62
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 04-09-1986
  Subject: ENCINO, CA

CASE TYPE:   CE II
     DATE:   2 APRIL 1986
     TIME:   08:30 HOURS
     CFN#:   0187
 DURATION:   30:MINUTES
   SOURCE:   NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER
 --------------------------------------------
One witness reported observing a small silvery object moving out side her
house.  The witness said: The object was about four incher in diamter.  She
said: The object was moving around and going over her dogs, she said her dogs
hair stood on end. She said: they seemed to be upset !  The witness said: She
watch this for about 7 minutes but then she looked up and notice a larger
silvery object approximately 8 to 10 inches in diamter.  She said: This larger
object then started to suppurate into four smaller objects. The witness said:
The closest point to the object from her was approximately 12 feet away. This
witnesses age is 76 years old.
 ---------------------------------------

 Report #: 64
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 04-10-1986
  Subject: SAN FRANCISCO, CA

CASE TYPE:   CE I
     DATE:   6 APRIL 1986
     TIME:   20:55 HOURS
     CFN#:   0189
 DURATION:   10:MINUTES
   SOURCE:   NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER
 --------------------------------------------
Six witnesses reported observing a large circular object in the eastern sky.
The witnesses said: while they were observing the large object it started to
suppurate into two disk shaped objects. They said: The two disk shaped objects
were stationary for a while till a third disk shaped object came in to wiew.
The witnesses said: The three objects then went in a (V) foramtion and
disappeared to the north.
 ---------------------------------------


--- XRS! 4.50+
 * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19)



Message #7649 - BAMA
   Date : 22-Sep-91  1:22
   From : John Powell
     To : James Nugent
Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 3/8

 Report #: 68
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 04-17-1986
  Subject: CORONADO, CA

CASE TYPE:   CE I
     DATE:   DECEMBER
     TIME:   NIGHT
     CFN#:   0193
 DURATION:   UNKNOWN
   SOURCE:   JOURNAL CORONADO JAN 9,1986
 ----------------------------------------
Three Coronados spotted an Unidentified flying object land in front of them.
They were coming out of the bingo hall at Sacred Heart Church.
Mona O' Keefe, Rosemany Thelen and a North Island worker A Mr. Herb, described
the object as a clear plastic bubble about three feet in diameter. As the man
approached the object, it ascended and flew over Orange Ave to Olive Ave and
out over the ocean in the fight path for North Island, according to the two
women. Police said: they had no reports. The women said: they asked around
town, but nobody else said they had spotted the mysterious object.
 ---------------------------------------

 Report #: 71
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 04-22-1986
  Subject: PETALUMA, CA

CASE TYPE:   CE I - NL
     DATE:   19 APRIL 1986
     TIME:   20:40 HOURS
     CFN#:   0196
 DURATION:   5 SECONDS
   SOURCE:   NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER
 -------------------------------------------
One witness reported observing 15 lights flying in a "V" formation at a fast
rate of speed. He said the lights were going from South East to North West. He
said they move from directly over hard to the horizon in 5 seconds.
 ---------------------------------------

 Report #: 74
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 04-22-1986
  Subject: WALNUT CREEK, CA

CASE TYPE:   CE I
     DATE:   21 APRIL 1986
     TIME:   22:56 HOURS
     CFN#:   0199
 DURATION:   10 SECONDS
   SOURCE:   NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER
 -------------------------------------------
Witnesses reported observing a very large object movung in the night sky at a
fast rate of speed. They said that the object was on a North to South course.
Also that the object then disappeared in the horizon. Another witness reported
observing this same object from an area called Oakland, California at the same
time as the sighting in Walnut Creek, Califoria.  The duration in both cases
was approximately 10 seconds.
 ---------------------------------------

 Report #: 78
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 04-27-1986
  Subject: EL CENTRO, CA

CASE TYPE:   CE I - DD
     DATE:   15 NOVEMBER 1985
     TIME:   19:15 HOURS
     CFN#:   0203
 DURATION:   15:SECONDS
   SOURCE:   NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER
 -------------------------------------------
Four witnesses reported observing three large disk shaped objects moving at a
fast rate of speed. They said the objects were going on a north to south
course.  The witnesses said that the colors of the disks were that of a penny
or copper.
 ----------------------------------------

 Report #: 79
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 04-27-1986
  Subject: NIPOMO, CA

CASE TYPE:   CE I - NL
     DATE:   26 APRIL 1986
     TIME:   21:27 HOURS
     CFN#:   0204
 DURATION:   15:MINUTES
   SOURCE:   NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER
 -------------------------------------------
Two witnesses reported observing four bright lights in the night skys.
They said that the lights or objects were at a high altitude and maneuvering
at high rates of speed. The witnesses said that the lights were going in
circles and making 90 degree turns. They also said the light were going in to
high speed vertical climbs and high speed vertical dives.
The lights or object would then make very fast stops.  The witnesses said they
were watching this going on directly over head in the North East sky.
 ----------------------------------------

 Report #: 96
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 05-23-1986
  Subject: PETALUMA, CA

CASE TYPE:   LRS
     DATE:   22 MAY 1986
     TIME:   0430
     CFN#:   0220
 DURATION:   UNKNOWN
   SOURCE:   (UPI) SEATTLE TIMES
 -----------------------------------------
PETALUMA, Calif. More then a dozen people reported seeing an unidentified
flying object hovering and darting over this suburban city north of San
Francisco early yesterday morning. I looked up and saw seveal orange lights
hovering in the sky, said Sue Heart, who was delivering newspapers at 4:30
a.m. when the UFO was sighted. A California Highway patrolman described the
fast flying object as a large, orange X with white lights on the front.  All
witnesses agreed it was not an airplane, and air-traffic and military
spokesmen in the area were unable to explain the object.
The sighting came three days after Brazilian air-force jets reportedly chased
more then a dozen fast-moving objects marked by intense green, red and white
lights.
 ----------------------------------------

--- XRS! 4.50+
 * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19)



Message #7650 - BAMA
   Date : 22-Sep-91  1:22
   From : John Powell
     To : James Nugent
Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 4/8

 Report #: 98
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 05-25-1986
  Subject: ANAHEIM, CA

CASE TYPE:   LRS
     DATE:   23 MAY 1986
     TIME:   2206 HOURS
     CFN#:   0222
 DURATION:   3:MINUTES
WITNESSES:   TWO
   SOURCE:   NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER
 ----------------------------------------
Two witnesses reported observing a very large object.  They said it was shaped
like a "+" sign with many lights on it. The witnesses said the object was lay
flat when sighted.  Also they heard no sound coming from the object at the
time of the sighting. The witnesses said the object was moving in a straight
line going from East to West. There is another case like this one which took
place on the 22 of may in petaluma California. The witnesses said in that case
the object was shaped like an "X" and also had many colored lights on it. This
could be the same object?
 ----------------------------------------

 Report #: 100
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 05-28-1986
  Subject: VALLEJO, CA

CASE TYPE:   LRS
     DATE:   25 MAY 1986
     TIME:   0145 HOURS
     CFN#:   0224
 DURATION:   UNKNOWN
WITNESSES:   TWO
   SOURCE:   NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER
 -----------------------------------------
Two witnesses reported observing an object that resebled a small full moon,
but the witnesses said, that it had a blue ring around it.
The witnesses said the blue ring was on the under side of the object and it
would increase in brightness when the object would move. The duration of this
sighting is not known.
 ----------------------------------------

 Report #: 104
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 06-02-1986
  Subject: LOS ANGELES, CA

CASE TYPE:   LRS
     DATE:   31 MAY 1986
     TIME:   1930 HOURS
 DURATION:   3:MINUTES
WITNESSES:   ONE
 -------------------------------------------
One witness reported observing some objects that looked to him like the tail
of a kite. The witness was looking out a window at about or approximately 7:30
P.M. he described the objects at first as looking like the tail of a kite,
twisting in the wind. He said it seemed to him that the objects were gyrating
about one another like two pieces of paper carried aloft. About fifteen
minutes later he saw three unmarked black helicopters fly overhead, but not in
the dirrection in which he had seen the objects.  This witness is a Sunday
School teacher.
 -----------------------------------------

 Report #: 106
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 06-05-1986
  Subject: GRIZZLY FLATS, CA

CASE TYPE:   NL
     DATE:   1 JUNE 1986
     TIME:   0400 HOURS
     CFN#:   0230
 DURATION:   5:SECONDS
WITNESSES:   ONE
   SOURCE:   NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER
-+--------------------------------------
A witness reported waking up at 4:00 am hearing her dog barking vigorously.
Just as she went to her window to see what was happening the whole area around
her house and the woods lit up just as if it were daytime.  She could see
shadows being cast of whatever it was but not the object itself as it was
directly overhead.  She did not go out to investigate.  The lighting effect
lasted for about five seconds.  There was no sound.
 -----------------------------------------

 Report #: 107
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 09-23-1986
  Subject: GRASS VALLEY, CA

CASE TYPE:   LRS
     DATE:   20 JUNE 1986
     TIME:   0100 HOURS
 DURATION:   15:MINUTES
WITNESSES:   SIX
   SOURCE:   NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER
-+-----------------------------------------
Six witnesses observed a large triangular shaped object with colored lights.
When first observed the object was stationary and then it started to move
directly toward to witnesses until it was directly overhead at an altitude
estimated to be over 1200 feet and they could all distinctly hear a low
humming sound for about 15 minutes.  The object was estimated to be 40 feet
across.  After about 15 minutes the object moved out of sight over the foot
hills moving north to south course.
 -----------------------------------------

 Report #: 108
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 09-23-1986
  Subject: SAN FRANCISCO, CA

CASE TYPE:   LRS - NL
     DATE:   20 JUNE 1986
     TIME:   0300 HOURS
 DURATION:   01: AND ONE HALF SECONDS
WITNESSES:   ONE
   SOURCE:   NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER
 -------------------------------------------
One witness while standing out on his balconey observed a large bright light
moving in a vertical decent towards the ground and it passed behind a hill,
out of sight.  As he stood and watched the area, he could see that there was a
bright light coming from behind the hill.  He could see it illuminating the
contour of the hill.  He described the object as large.  He observed it for
one and a half minutes.  No sound was heard.
 -----------------------------------------

--- XRS! 4.50+
 * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19)



Message #7651 - BAMA
   Date : 22-Sep-91  1:23
   From : John Powell
     To : James Nugent
Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 5/8

 Report #: 177
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 10-16-1986
  Subject: SONOMA, CA

CASE TYPE:  LRS - DS
     DATE:  06 JULY 1986
     TIME:  0515 HOURS
     CFN#:  0301
 DURATION:  15: MINUTES
WITNESSES:  ONE
   SOURCE:  INDEX-TRIBUNE, SONOMA, CA.
-+------------------------------------

  Sightings of strange flying objects have become more frequent in these parts
since late May when a California Highway Patrol officer spotted a peculiar
light in the sky during the wee hours of the morning.

  But last weekend, not only did Sonoman Joan Burtson observe an unusual
flying object - this one toyed with her and followed her car for several
blocks before finally giving up and going away.
  The head nurse at a local convalescent hospital dismesses the notion that
the bright object in the dawn sky which taunted her for some 15 minutes was a
space ship carting around some alien beings.
  "I don't believe in them," she emphatically states.  "I don't know what it
was but I don't believe in UFO's.  Burtson will acknowledge that in the last
few weeks she has heard numerous rumors of UFO sightings in Sonoma Valley.
For instance, an acquaintance on Eighth Street East reported that ever since
the CHP officer saw the strange light two months ago "that thing has been
hanging around here."
  However, Burtson's description and that of the CHP patrolman are vastly
different leading one to believe there are several odd things hovering around
up there.
  What was seen on the early morning of May 21 was a bright orange "X" shaped
object heading at a high rate of speed over the Valley to Petaluma.
  The only similarity  with Saturday's unexplained illuminating object was
that both were apparently headed in the same direction over the hill to
Petaluma.
  Burtson remembers it as a "solid mass of white light, it was circular
about the size of an apple.
  "There were no colors and it was not flashing."  she recalls.  Burtson's
curious find took place at 5:15 a.m. as she was on her way home from Napa
after dropping her husband Pat off at work.
  She initially noticed the stationary light in the vicinity of Eighth
Street East and Napa Road.  Later as she approached Leveroni Road from
Fifth Street West the flying object moved along with her and made the
same right turn.
  She subsequently made three U turns and each time the object would
seemingly use its remote control to reverse its course also.
  "I thought to myself this is weird so I made three U turns to test it
out," she says.
  On occasion, the UFO would become obscured by the trees but almost the
entire way home, no matter what Burtson would do " it would move
right along with me," she laughs.
  Finally, the flying object, for whatever reason, decided the game of
cat and mouse was over and it headed towards the Diamond A area,
disappearing over the hill.

 Report #: 183
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 10-16-1986
  Subject: GRASS VALLEY, CA

CASE TYPE:  LRS
     DATE:  05 SEPTEMBER 1986
     TIME:  0500 HOURS
     CFN#:  0307
 DURATION:  UNKNOWN
WITNESSES:  MANY
   SOURCE:  (PAPER UNKNOWN),CA-CR:MUFON
-+----------------------------------------

  Grass Valley - A silent but colorful flying object zoomed across the sky
over the Sierra foothills just before dawn Friday, according to some local
residents who witnessed the brief event.
  U.S. air defense officials said they had no explanation. "It was a
bluish-green light with a large tail," said Ron Talmage, a security officer
who was nearing the end of a night shift when he saw the unidentified object.
"It had little pieces flaking off of it like it was coming down," he said.
"Working nights, I see meteorites, little ones, all the time.  This was
spectacular and it seemed like it was just a few miles away."
  The blaze of color, reported by most observers to have occurred just before
5 a.m., was seen over a 40-mile area ranging from Colfax to Penn Valley.


--- XRS! 4.50+
 * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19)



Message #7652 - BAMA
   Date : 22-Sep-91  1:23
   From : John Powell
     To : James Nugent
Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 6/8

 Report #: 192
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 11-26-1986
  Subject: LOS ANGELES, CA

CASE TYPE:  LRS NL
     DATE:  24 NOVEMBER 1986
     TIME:  UNKNOWN
     CFN#:  0314
 DURATION:  UNKNOWN
WITNESSES:  MANY
   SOURCE:  KRLA RADIO STATION
-+-----------------------------------

Individual on morning of November 25 was driving to hospital and got
caught in traffic jam so turned on radio to listen for possible
alternative routes.  While listening he heard a report about a sighting
the night before witnessed by thousands of people.  They reported
a multi colored object that went from south to north.  Many calls
were made to the police.  An astronomer was also called and he
stated that it could have been a meteor.

 Report #: 197
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 12-01-1986
  Subject: CULVER CITY, CA

CASE TYPE:  LRS - NL
     DATE:  21 NOVEMBER 1986
     TIME:  2340 - 2345 HOURS
     CFN#:  0319
 DURATION:  05-07: MINUTES
WITNESSES:  ONE
   SOURCE:  CUFON - UFO INFORMATION SERVICE
-+-----------------------------------------

One witness reported seeing over her street, LaSalle, an object that the nose
of it looked like a boomerang with a pyramid bottom.  It was a very windy and
particularly clear night and when she looked to the north she saw a formation
coming towards her and her first impression was that it was a flock of birds
and then as it got closer it looked like a formation of stars.  They had a
luminous glow to them and they didn't look like head lamps or anything like
that.  As it came closer she noticed there were more lights going across the
bottom of it like a stingray - solid at least underneath and she could not see
through it.  As it came towards her the lights shut off in the center and only
the outline was left on.  Stayed there for about 5-7 minutes watching.  As it
came over her it went further up in the sky and it was weird as no light in
the belly of it but she could see a formation of it and what it looked like
but it kept fading in and out.  The lights in the front of the object stayed
on, no noise.  The object was much larger than any plane she has ever seen
from wing to wing.  A boomerang has very wide angles from one end to the other
as the object did also, and the nose of the object was not sharp.

--- XRS! 4.50+
 * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19)



Message #7653 - BAMA
   Date : 22-Sep-91  1:24
   From : John Powell
     To : James Nugent
Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 7/8

 Report #: 198
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 12-10-1986
  Subject: BAKERSFIELD, CA

CASE TYPE:  LRS
     DATE:  12 JULY 1986
     TIME:  UNKNOWN
     CFN#:  0320
 DURATION:  UNKNOWN
WITNESSES:  THREE
   SOURCE:  MERCURY NEWS, SAN JOSE, CA
-+------------------------------------

REDONDO BEACH - Andy Hoyt admits he has no proof - not anymore, at least -
that he witnessed the crash of an aircraft that may be the Pentagon's
most carefully guarded secret.
  His sister, Lisa, and her 16-year-old son, Joey, reportedly also saw the
plane, but both declined to discuss the alleged incident.  Hoyt, an unemployed
Redondo Beach carpenter, says he snapped photographs of the
plane as it plummeted to the ground in the Sequoia National Forest near
Bakersfield.
  But the photographs were given to the Air Force, Hoyt says, and the Air
Force isn't talking.
  Defense experts, however, say Hoyt's description of what he claims he saw
that night fits the most educated guesses of the configuration of the
top secret F-19 stealth fighter - a plane the Air Force will not confirm
even exists.
  In a scenario that sounds like a science fiction movie, Hoyt says he
and two relatives saw something drop out of the sky and explode into
flames on the other side of a hill about a half-mile away.
  "It seemed like it was something other than an airplane, said Hoyt,
26, who was on a camping trip. "Believe it or not, I thought it was
a UFO."
  Whatever it was, he says, the military has been treating him royally since
he called Edwards Air Force Base when he returned home the following Sunday
evening and told the Air Force about the photographs.
  Hoyt says he and his party were driving east on state Highway 178
about 15 miles northeast of Bakersfiled in the early morning hours of July 12
when they pulled over for a brief rest.  He was just climbing back into his
truck when he saw it.
  "All I saw were three red lights and a dark image behind them like
an upside-down triangle."  Hoyt said, adding that each light was
at a point of the triangle.  He said he pulled a camera from the
dashboard of the truck and managed to take two or three pictures
before the plane disappeared over the hill.
  Then, a pair of explosions "lit up the sky like it was daylight out."
  Contrary to published reports on the day of the accident, Hoyt says, the
aircraft did not explode before it crashed.  At least one Air Force source has
been quoted as saying plane exploded in midair, which could explain why the
pilot, who was killed, was not able to eject safetly.
  "It was definitely not on fire when it came down," Hoyt said. "Why couldn't
the guy eject?"
  After making sure the blaze was reported on an emergency roadside phone, the
party continued to its campground north of nearby Lake Isabella.
  His call to Edwards upon returning home brought a sudden response from the
Air Force, Hoyt says.  "They took my name and number and within an hour
someone had flown down here and talked to me," he said.
  "They didn't press me, but they wanted to see the film in my camera."

 Report #: 208
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 01-18-1987
  Subject: CALIFORNIA-OREGON

CASE TYPE:  LRS - NL
     DATE:  25 NOVEMBER 1986
     TIME:  2022 HOURS
     CFN#:  0330
 DURATION:  UNKNOWN
WITNESSES:  MANY
   SOURCE:  ARKANSAS GAZETTE, LITTLE ROCK, AR
-+-------------------------------------------

ARKANSAS GAZETTE, Little Rock, AR -
Nov. 26, 1986

Fireball not man-made, experts say

 Defense experts Tuesday eliminated "space junk or any man-made object" as an
explanation for a mysterious meteoric fireball that streaked across the
Pacific Coast.
 The object, sighted at 8:22 p.m. (CST) Monday, dazzled stargazers from the
California-Oregon border to the Los Angeles area.
 "It looked like a long, green meteor but it lasted way too long, arcing
across the sky toward the ocean, then it just blew up," Roy Jackson of
Mountain View, Cal., said.
 "It wasn't space junk or any man-made object re-entering the atmosphere, and
we don't track meteors," Del Kindschi of the North American Aerospace Defense
Command at Denver said.  "We heard about it but there weren't any satellites
or man-made space objects entering the atmosphere at that time." (UPI)


--- XRS! 4.50+
 * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19)



Message #7654 - BAMA
   Date : 22-Sep-91  1:24
   From : John Powell
     To : James Nugent
Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 8/8

 Report #: 210
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 01-18-1987
  Subject: SARATOGA, CA.

CASE TYPE:  LRS - NL
     DATE:  14 OCTOBER 1986
     TIME:  2015 - 2030 HOURS
     CFN#:  0332
 DURATION:  UNKNOWN
WITNESSES:  FIFTEEN
   SOURCE:  MERCURY NEWS, SAN JOSE, CA
-+------------------------------------

MERCURY NEWS, San Jose, CA - Oct. 23,
1986

Mystery lights return to Saratoga

By Kathy Holub
Mercury News Staff Writer

  A beautiful apparition has been glowing in the night sky over Saratoga,
leaving viewers baffled and entranced.
  About 15 people, all agog, called Santa Clara County dispatchers on
Tuesday night to report a mysterious bright red light that hovered in the
sky from 8:15 to 8:30 and then disappeared.
  Dozens of callers described a similar phenomenon on Oct. 16, same time, same
place.
  "It was very exciting," said Maureen Denton of Los Gatos, who watched last
week's display during a break in her real estate class at West Valley
College.
  "It was very bright, much larger than the lights you see on airplanes.  At
one point, something burning or flickering dropped from it.  It was just a
tiny little flicker that came down.  We all went: `Oooh, what was that?'"
  No one seems to know.
  That includes Vicki Yauger of Saratoga, who spied the object Tuesday
night while lounging with her husband in thier backyard spa.
  Yauger said the light appeared high in the northwestern sky, first moving
toward them, then away.
  Through her binoculars, the apparition became a cluster of lights.
  "It was scary.  When it started getting larger, it seemed to be coming
down," she said.
  Yauger didn't see the object fade from view because she had just gone
into the house.  Her husband told her the light turned green and slowly
disappeared.
  Spokesmen at Moffett Field Naval Air Station said nothing flew out of their
airfield Tuesday that looked like that. And officials at Vandenberg Air Force
Base in Lompoc said they didn't launch a thing Tuesday night.  Ditto for Oct.
15.
  Other watchers of the night sky - air traffic controllers and astronomers at
Lick Observatory - said they saw nothing unusual.

--- XRS! 4.50+
 * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19)

---  EOF ---

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: New Jersey UFO Sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 19:59:56 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 174
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2203 alt.conspiracy:7690 sci.skeptic:15659




----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.



--+------------------------------------------------------------------------+--


                   MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO Network
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                         Investigative Sighting Report
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Log # 890303 -
Event mid-June 1959, midday, Whiting, NJ:
Duration, unknown (possible time lapse).
Lead investigator Walter Webb.

The witness, then 8 years old, went hiking into a nearby woods that lie near
multiple military installations.  He entered a circular clearing, on the
perimeter of which tree bark was scraped and hanging.  At some point, from
overhead a shadow became apparent, and the boy discovered a 60 foot disc 300
feet overhead with a high-pitched humming.  The object descended while the
witness felt an electrical tingling, then a blank.  When he returned home, he
could not account for six hours.

--+------------------------------------------------------------------------+--

report #: 1
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 10-20-1985
  Subject: NORTH BERGEN, NEW JERSEY

CASE TYPE:  CE I - NOCTURNAL LIGHTS
     DATE:  5 OCTPBER 1985
     TIME:  2015
     CFN#:  0127
   SOURCE:  NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER
----------------------------------------
ONE WITNESS REPORTED OBSERVING 4 LARGE LIGHTS MANEUVERING AROUND EACH OTHER IN
THE NIGHT SKY. THE DISTANCE FROM THE WITNESS TO THE LIGHTS ARE UNKNOWN. THE
DURATION OF THIS SIGHTING IS ALSO UNKNOWN


--+------------------------------------------------------------------------+--
Report nj10190.ufo


This sighting took place on October 1, 1990, at 2:30 am, near Lake Tamarack.
A report was filed with the police department of Hardyston, New Jersey.  At
present, three witnesses have come forward describing this event.  What
follows is an account of the event by Mr. and Mrs. L. McR.  Mrs. L McR. said
she looked out the window on her way to bed at about 2:30 am and saw an object
hovering over the mountain near her Lake Tamarack home.

"I thought it was a helicopter.  It looked like the top light was pulsing.
There were lights below it, but they did not move."

When the object kept hovering for about five minutes, she called her husband
to come and look at it.  The two used a telescope and saw the object again.

Mr. McR. stated, "It was a streak of green at an angle with a cut out square
at the bottom center.  It was pulsing."

The couple then called a neighbor, who also saw the object.  The couple
watched the object for about 15-20 minutes through the telescope as it
traveled slowly thru the sky at the same speed as the stars around it and then
disappeared behind some trees.  Mr. McR. explained that " the object appeared
stationary to the naked eye, but the telescope showed it was moving slowly.  I
have never seen anything like that before.  It was definitely not an
airplane."

Walter Zamorski of the National Weather Service, when questioned, stated that
the weather on the morning of October 1, was extremely clear, and the sighting
might have been a weather satellite.  No further information has materialized
since the October sighting.


--+------------------------------------------------------------------------+--

           MUFONET-BBS network - Mutual UFO Network
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                Investigative Sighting Report
               ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Report---------  nj12590.ufo
Date-----------  December 5, 1990
Location-------  Denville, New Jersey
Classification-
Details--------

This sighting took place on December 5, 1990, at
approximately 8:35 pm.

The witness was driving home, heading west on East Hanover
Avenue.  There were other cars on the road, traveling in both
directions (there are two lanes in each direction).
Approximately at 20 degrees to the right of the witness's
path lay a patch of foggy luminosity, about 45 degrees above
the horizon.  The patch disappeared after a few seconds, to
be replaced by a very large orange cloud, illuminated from
inside.  It was very bright, then dimmed briefly in
intensity.

The cloud very quickly flared back to the original intensity
for a short while longer, flickered once, and went dark.  A
dark patch in the sky could be seen marking where the cloud
had been.  The entire sighting lasted for a little over a
minute.  The sky this night was clear, with stars easily
seen.  other motorists did not seem to stop or slow down.
There were no fires in the area, as the fire trucks were in
their garages that night.  The area under where the cloud was
is residential, with no major power lines or towers in the
vicinity.  There were no reports of explosions or the like.

If anyone has information on this particular formation, or
others like it, please send the information to the Mutual UFO
network, 103 Oldtowne Road, Seguin, Texas 78155.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


UFO/Sighting/Incident  Inactive Runway #5 MAFB,
N.J. 09864   Date 18 Jan 78    HOUR 0315hrs.
N.J. State Police  Wrightstown Barracks, N.J.
-----------------------------------------------------
         INCIDENT/COMPLAINT REPORT

On the above date and time it was reported to this office
that there were reports of UFO sighting over the base and
an incident in progress on the Ft.Dix installation.
Also, MAFB control tower,AIC R_____________reported same.
Upon further investigation, it was reported that an
unidentified being, had been shot by Dix MP's and same
entered MAFB at above location.

Further investigation revealed that there was some kind of
body found on our installation.
Area was cordoned off and ECP set up. USAF clinic personnel
advised and dispatched accordingly. Recovery team notified
and responding. All necessary personnel have been notified.
See further 1569's for more information. Investigation
pending.

--------------------------------------------------------
               C. EVIDENCE

One body of unknown origin released to the care of OSI
District Commander and Special Recovery Team from Wright-
Pat AFB.

Col. Landon
Brig.Gen. Brown
AFOSI
-----------------------------------------------------------

--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: North Carolina UFO Sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 20:01:21 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 186
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2204 alt.conspiracy:7691 sci.skeptic:15660




----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------



                   MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              UFO Sighting Report
                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Report:--------------- NC021989.UFO
Date of Sighting:----- February 19,1989
Location of Sighting:- Near Enfield, North Carolina
Classification:-------
Details:

Farmer Ferdie Barkley watched a cigar-shaped UFO for over 5 minutes during the
daytime, near Enfield.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              UFO Sighting Report
                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Report:--------------- NC032889.UFO
Date of Sighting:----- March 28, 1989
Location of Sighting:- Mt. Holly, North Carolina
Classification:-------
Details:

On March 28, at dusk, Mt. Holly Junior High student Brett Keeter, 13, saw a
white cigar-shaped UFO while riding his bicycle.  The UFO moved horizontally
at low altitude above Mt. Holly, then the soundless object made a 60 degree
turn and left the area.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


                   MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              UFO Sighting Report
                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Report:--------------- NC081889.UFO
Date of Sighting:----- August 18, 1989
Location of Sighting:- McGuire, North Carolina
Classification:-------
Details:

At 3 pm, Paul L. Moore, a retired security guard at the McGuire Nuclear Plant
saw a strange triangular shaped object for about two seconds.  The UFO, about
the "size of a Stealth bomber", made a 45 degree descent and moved towards
McGuire.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


                   MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              UFO Sighting Report
                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Report:--------------- NC082189.UFO
Date of Sighting:----- August 21, 1989
Location of Sighting:- Jacksonville, North Carolina
Classification:-------
Details:

Dozens of eyewitnesses reported an "oval-shaped UFO with a tail on each side"
at 5:30 am.  Chased by Sheriff's Deputies and photos taken.  Duration: 35-40
minutes.  Thought to be a booster rocket sent up in Virginia.  Most
eyewitnesses didn't accept this, however.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


                   MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              UFO Sighting Report
                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Report:--------------- NC102589.UFO
Date of Sighting:----- October 25, 1989
Location of Sighting:- Connelly Springs, North Carolina
Classification:-------
Details:

On October 25, student Jason Newton watched four disc-shaped UFOs through
binoculars.  They flew in formation near Connelly Springs and were moving
south with a series of slow maneuvers at 6:55 pm.  Newton that one of the UFOs
dropped from the formation, descended and hovered for one minute before
returning rapidly to the rest of the UFOs.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


                   MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              UFO Sighting Report
                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Report:--------------- NC102989.UFO
Date of Sighting:----- October 29, 1989
Location of Sighting:- Seven miles west of Lincolnton, NC
Classification:-------
Details:

John D. White, a former Marine pilot, and his wife, Shigeko, had their
mountain climbing trip to Linville Gorge delayed when a UFO "about the size of
a three-room house" came down from the sky.  White and his wife were about
seven miles west of Lincolnton, and followed the object for about five
minutes.  They got out of their car and watched the strange craft thru
binoculars and noticed the craft had a cross design of lights on it's bottom.
They turned their car around and chased the UFO back to Lincolnton.  The oval
UFO had red, green and white lights on it.  This sighting took place on
Highway 27 West at 7:02 am.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


                   MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              UFO Sighting Report
                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Report:--------------- NC10_89.UFO
Date of Sighting:----- October 22-25, 1989
Location of Sighting:- Sauratown Mountian, North Carolina
Classification:-------
Details:

For four nights from October 22 thru the 25, Gary Bledsow and a large number
of other observers watched a series of objects shaped like "sugar cubes
standing on end" that maneuvered in the northern sky below the Little Dipper.
The sightings occurred near Sauratown Mountain in Pilot Mountain.  The UFOs
were colored with red, green, white and blue lights, and flew across the sky
each evening between 8:30 and 9:30 pm.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


                   MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              UFO Sighting Report
                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Report:--------------- NC818892.UFO
Date of Sighting:----- August 18, 1989
Location of Sighting:- Lincolnton, North Carolina
Classification:-------
Details:

At 5:40 am, three employees of Cochrane Furniture Company reported seeing a
brilliant white-lighted object moving from east to north.  UFO seen for a
least a minute from Hwys. 150 and 27 outside Lincolnton.  Names on file
(requested confidentially).

--- EOF ---

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: 1989 UFO Sightings - all areas
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 20:04:32 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 709
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2205 alt.conspiracy:7692 sci.skeptic:15661





----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------



 January 1989 UFO Reports

1/XX N WEST BEND, WI     Midnite    CE1       Multiple witness
 Boomerang, hovered near railroad tracks.  No sound.  15 min.

1/03 CORONA, CA.     6:15 PM    CE1       Multiple witness.
 Four diamond shaped objects, silver in color, size of small car.
 Stopped for appox. 5 minutes, 300 feet over witnesses. No sound.

1/04 THREE RIVERS, MI.   8:30 PM    NL       Single witness
 Three "Tylenol-caplet" shaped objects flying at high speed.  No sound.

1/09 INDIANA CO., PA.    9:00 PM    NL       Single witness
 Large craft with red & white lights hovered in sky.  No sound.

1/09 KEY LARGO, FL.     XXXX    NL       Multiple witness
 Luminous cloud of smoke, performed gyrations. Possible Trident missile.

1/10 HAKENSACK, N.J.     8:00 AM    CE1       Single witness
 Object hovered 80 feet in the air.  No sound.

1/10 APPLETON, WI.     Night    CE1       Multiple witness.
 Three large bright white lights moving in a straight line, observed
 by pilot and co-pilot of small plane flying at 7000 feet. Lights
 turned off and on in sequence.

1/12 BELLEVILLE, IL.     10:00 PM    CE1       Multiple witness.
 Circular object, 100 feet overhead, moving across roadway over car.
1/13 SUN PRARIE, WI.     8:25 PM    CE1       Multiple witness.
 Triangular shaped object with six bright lights in front, 1 1/2
 football fields wide, 1000 feet altitude.  Over roadway 30 to 45
 seconds.  No sound heard.
1/17 FENNIMORE, WI.     7:00 PM    NL       Multiple witness.
 Twelve to fifteen lights.  Several reports to Sheriff Dept.  No sound.
1/17 GREENS FORK, IN.    6:30 PM    NL       Single witness.
 Bright reddish light, thought to be helicopter at first. No sound. 7 Mn
1/17 FORT WAYNE, IN.     1:03 AM    CE1       Multiple witness.
 Triangular shaped object 30 to 40 yards from car, treetop level.
 Large as a small airliner, making "swishing" sound. At 1:30 AM
 witness returned to area with second witness, saw two oblong craft
 in area.
1/19 GREENS FORK, IN.    6:30 PM    NL       Single witness.
 Red light.  No sound.  7 Minutes.
1/21 CORYDON, IN.     11:00 PM    CE2       Five witnesses.
 Object with lights.  Photographed.   3 Minutes.
1/22 GREENS FORK, IN.    8:30 PM    CE1       Two witnesses.
 Poorly lit object passed within 300 feet of witness. No sound. 7 Min.
1/22 TEXARKANA, TX.     4:43 PM    CE1       Single witness.
 Large, silver, cylindrical-shaped craft passed 300 feet below Cessna
 flying at 6500 feet.
1/23 GAINESVILLE, FL.    5:00 AM    CE1       Multiple witness.
 Disc-shaped object, stationary overhead, 10 feet diameter, 90 feet
 off of ground. Duration: 5 minutes.   No sound.
1/25 BEVERLY, NJ.     9:10 PM    CE2       Multiple witness.
 Triangular shaped object, 100 feet in diameter, altitude 200 feet.
 Witnesses said house shook and they heard loud rumbling sound.
1/27 ATLANTA, GA.     9:25 AM    CE1       Multiple witness.
 Pilot and co-pilot - both with 30 years flying experience and holding
 Captain's rank - saw torpedo shaped object, 10 feet long and two feet
 in diameter pass appoximately 800 feet under their aircraft.
1/29 REDDING, CA.     9:35 PM    CE1       Single witness.
 Six triangular shaped objects moving in formation from south to north.
 Low altitude, moved from horizon to horizon in six seconds.
1/30 BATTLE MTN., NV.    5:00 PM    CE1       Three witnesses.
 Witnesses saw oval object with red lights.  No sound. 15 Minutes.
1/30 MONTAUK POINT, NY.  4:25 AM    CE2       Multiple witness.
 Three man crew of fishing boat saw large object, approximately 150 ft.
 in diameter, with bright lights, approximately 100 feet over water.
 Radar went out on boat.  Crew turned off lights and engine.  Object
 turned on edge and displayed "diamond" shape, then passed over boat at
 about 300 yards.  Duration: 25 minutes.  No sound.
1/31 VERSAILLES, IL.      6:40 PM    NL       Two witnesses.
 Seven or eight blinking lights at low level.  So sound. 7 Minutes.
1/31 RUSHVILLE, IL.      6:45 PM    NL       Two witnesses.
 Orange ball observed on Rt. 67. Shot off several fireballs. 10 Min.
1/31 LEAVENWORTH, WA.     9:15 PM    NL       Single witness.
 Bright light hovered then moved.  No sound.  7 Minutes.
1/31 VALIANT, OK.      9:30 PM    NL       Multiple witness.
 Two diamond shaped objects trailed by 4-5 other bright objects. 1 HR.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    February 1989    UFO Reports

2/XX    BIGLER, PA.         11:00 PM       NL          Single witness
    Large white light observed by worked in early Feb.  No sound
2/XX    THREE RIVERS, MI.    9:15 PM       NL          Single witness
    Three "Tylenol-caplet" shaped objects. Same as 1/4/89. No sound.
2/02    OLYMPIA FIELDS, IL.  9:30 AM       CE1          Two witnesses
    Cigar-shaped object larger than a 747 decending.  No sound.  1 min.
2/03    RAVENNA, MI.         2:45 AM       CE2          Multiple witness.
    Big bright fireball type object approached to 50 yards of car at tree-
    top level.  Fireball went out leaving dark mass with red, green, &
    white lights. When car moved, object moved and vice versa.  Played for
    15 to 20 minutes, then moved away at high speed.  No sound.
2/04    LANESVILLE, IN.      3:00 AM       CE1          Two witnesses
    Object w/lights floating at 300 ft.  No sound.
2/07    NEW HAVEN, CT.         10:00 PM       CE1          Single witness.
    Small, spherical-shaped object, with red and blue pulsating lights,
    stationary over neighbors backyard. 60 feet from witness, rooftop
    level.    Duration: 15 seconds.
2/08    GULF BREEZE, FL.     3:40 AM       CE2          Single witness
    Dog awakened by small object over parking lot.    No sound.  12 min.
2/09    DU QUOIN, IL.         6:30 PM       CE1          Multiple witness.
    Object with red lights observed over field about 200 feet from house.
    Duration: 4 minutes.  No sound.
2/10    DEKALB CO., AL.      8:30 PM       NL          Multiple witness
    Banana shaped object observed by many including law.  No sound.  1 HR.
2/11    SAN ANTONIO, TX.     11:15 PM       CE2          Single witness
    Disc shaped object emitted beam which extinguished nearby street light.
    Humming sound.    Few minutes.
2/14    TEHACHAPI, CA.         7:55 PM       CE1          Multiple witness.
    Ten to twelve large circular objects with red, white and blue lights
    on top moving over nearby mountains.  Duration: 45 minutes.
2/15    GEORGIANA, AL.         Midnite       NL          Multiple witness
    Several police and citizen reports.  No sound.    1 HR.
2/17    FYFE, AL.         Midnite       NL          Three witnesses
    Lights seen by police chief and other law officers.  No other info.
2/20    RUSSELL, KS.         6:20 PM       CE1          Single witness
    "Mothership" landed two miles from city limits.  No sound.
2/21    PHILADELPHIA, PA.    2:00 AM       CE1          Single witness
    Craft reported about 50 ft. above home.  No sound.
2/21    RUSSELL, KS.         9:40 PM       NL          Two witnesses
    Description sounds like stars.
2/21    WILSON, PA.         10:00 PM       NL          Two witnesses
    Object w/ 6-8 lites on side, sounding like expanding aluminum. 3 min.
2/21    POWAY, CA.         9:50 PM       NL          Single witness
    While watching aircraft activity witness saw a "small bright object"
    enter atmosphere in a vertical path at a high rate of speed.  Increased
    in size to a "huge, brilliant, blue-green swath".  When 1000 feet from
    ground object did 90 degree turn and moved out of sight. 20 seconds.
2/22    RUSSELL, KS.         9:00 PM       NL          Five witnesses
    14 UFOs seen by 5 people (description sounds like stars).  No sound.
2/23    NEW PORT, NH.         Night       CE1          Two witnesses
    "Very large, bright white light approached car.  Stopped, turned off
    engine, got out.  Light form passed overhead at about 300 ft. Witnesses
    could clearly hear a high pitched humming saound.  1 minute.
2/24    FYFFE, AL.         7:30 PM       NL          Multiple witness
    Bright round object w/ white & green lites. 40 calls to police.
2/24    RUSSELL, KS.         XXXX       NL          Multiple witness
    Man & family saw cluster of lights come out of a gulley.  No sound.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    March 1989    UFO Reports

3/01    UNION CITY, OH.      8:03 PM       CE1          Two witnesses
    While driving home, two witnesses saw triangular shaped object
    stationary in the sky, about halfway between their car and their hse.
    Car was about quarter mile from house at time.  Witnesses stopped car
    and stared in disbelief.  Described as "gigantic" 5 to 6 xs larger
    than house, 95 ft. long. Object passed overhaed at about 40 ft.  Sur-
    face looked "very metallic".  Rumbling sound.  10 minutes.
3/02    BEDFORD, NY.         9:15 PM       CE1          Single witness
    Triangular shaped craft, twice as big as 747 with lights on the bot-
    tom. Remained in stationary position about 1000 ft. away at low al-
    titude for about 30 seconds before it moved away.
3/02    SHRUB OAK, NY.         9:35 PM       CE2          Single witness
    Gigantic (as big as two football fields) boomerang-shaped craft with
    a series of brilliant lights in front stops 50 feet over baseball
    field by witnesses house.  Witness shone flashlite at object and it
    turned away. No sound except dogs barking. Object circled about 50 ft.
    overhead and witness felt a strong cold airmass.  Trees were blowing.
    Witness thought that it had only been about 20 minutes but he arrived
    home at 10:30 PM.
3/17    BISHOP, CA.         5:30 PM       CE1          Two witnesses
    Silver, oblong object, shaped like fuselage, black canopy on top in
    front with what appeared to be black windows on the side, big as 747,
    moving fast and reflected sunlight.  Increased speed and left.    30 sec.
3/18    CUDAHY, WI.         8:45 PM       CE1          Single witness
    Gray cigar-shaped object almost overhead, surrounded by shimmering
    lite.  Craft about 1000 ft. in air.  Went into vertical climb and left
    in seconds.  Duration: 10 seconds.
3/27    KEYSVILLE, GA.         7:15 PM       CE1          Two witnesses
    Round yellowish-white light about 12 ft. in diameter, giving off a
    "buzzing" sound, moves towards witnesses just above the ground. Light
    suddenly stopped 50 ft. from their home.  Went into a vertical climb
    and was out of sight in seconds.
3/28    NORTH HOLLYWOOD, CA. 1:29 PM       NL          Two witnesses
    Huge, shiny, gold sphere streak across northern sky, west to east.
    Visible against a blue sky. No trail.
3/29    CAPE CORAL, FL.      6:35 PM       NL          Single witness
    Triangular formation of bright white lights emerge from dark clouds.
    In sight, 25 to 30 seconds.  Appeared not to be attached to structure.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    April 1989    UFO Reports

4/04    PENSACOLA, FL.         EVEN       CE2          Single witness
    Wit. felt energy, saw ball of lite, car radio effected. No sd. 7 sec.
4/04    PACE, FL.         XXXX       XX          XXXXXXX
    No details.  Under investigation.
4/04    KIMBAL, S.D.         8:15 PM       NL          Multiple witness
    Several reports of flaming object which maneuvered. Not aircraft.
4/05    PLAINFILED, IN.      3:00 AM       CE2          Two witnesses
    "Gulf Breeze" type object with lights. No sound.
4/05    CANTONMENT, FL.      11:00 PM       NL          Two witnesses
    15 to 20 discs.  No sound.  Duration 5 minutes.
4/09    ST. PETERSBURG, FL.  3:05 PM       CE1          Two witnesses
    Seven disc-shaped craft, 5 to 10 ft. in diameter with a reddish glow
    on the underside, moving in a tight "V" formation. Estimated altitude
    500 ft.  Approached from SE, passed overhead, then went N.  No sound.
4/11    MIDWAY, FL.         XXXX       XX          XXXXX
    No details.  Under investiagtion.
4/12    WEBSTER, MA.         11:00 AM       CE2          Single witness
    (At Lake Chaubunagungamouga) Circular shaped craft, 12 to 15 ft. in
    diameter, four to five ft. thick, dark brown or black in color. Wit-
    saw bubbles/boiling on lake.  Watched 8 to 12 seconds then saw object
    ascend from water and shoot straight up into sky and out of sight.
    No sound.  Police called.  Witness deemed credible.
4/13    EUGENE, OR.         10:30 PM       CE1          Single witness
    While riding his motorcycle in a rural area the witness spotted two
    bright objects in the sky.  One appeared to be about 2000ft. above
    the ground, the other just above the roadway.  Both were stationary.
    He drove under the one over the road and stopped the bike. He looked
    up and saw a triangular-shaped craft about 30 ft. in diameter with
    brilliant white lights about 25 to 30 ft. above his head. After 15 min-
    utes the craft moved quickly to the south.
4/17    GULF BREEZE, FL.     10:00 PM       NL          Nine witnesses
    Lights observed with binoculars.  Probably stars.  No sound. 3 hrs.
4/18    GULF BREEZE, FL.     10:00 PM       NL          Six witnesses
    Probably stars.
4/19    JACKSON, CA.         8:30 AM       CE1          Two witnesses
    Square-shaped object with a red dome on top with silver disc-shaped
    object about 3 ft. in diameter attached to each side, (the diameter
    of each side was equal to the diameter of the disc), with a 20 ft.
    long silver rod hanging from the bottom, seen by pilot and passenger
    of small plane.
4/19    PANORA, IA.         10:35 PM       CE1          Two witnesses
    Oval-shaped object, "as big as an airliner" with many colored lights
    passed within 200 ft. of witnesses.  After passing overhead the ob-
    ject changed course and came to a stop over an open field.  It then
    launched two red lights which descended to the ground.    It was under
    observation for approximately 30 minutes.  No sound was heard.
4/20    WESTCHESTER CO., NY. 10:30 PM       CE1           Two witnesses
    Semi-circular solid object about 4 xs larger than a 747 with seven
    "big, big lights".  Watched for about 10 minutes in a stationary
    position before moving away toward New York City.  Three other adults
    riding in a car on Route 684 near Bedford (same county) witnessed simi-
    lar object.
4/21    CRESTVIEW, FL.         9:15 PM       CE2           Single witness
    90 ft. diameter disc with light beam. Humming sound.  2 minutes.
4/22    ST. LOUIS, MO.         9:22 PM       CE1           Two witnesses
    Blk. saucer w/orange turret & stripe, 150ft of wit. "Whish" sd. 30 sec.
4/24    SEVILLE, OH.         2:30 PM       CE1           Single witness
    Octagon-shaped object, gold in color, three to four ft. in diameter
    on the ground in neighbors field. After watching it for two minutes
    the object ascended slightly and moved to within 300 ft. of witnesses
    house.    Craft then moved back to original position and moved about.
    After about 7 minutes object ascended and moved out of sight. No sound.
4/25    WARRINGTON, FL.      XXXXX       NL           Two witnewsses
    Oval shaped UFO.  No sound.
4/27    GULF BREEZE, FL.     9:30 PM       NL           Single witness
    Sounds like bright star except for initial high speed. No sound. 30 min.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    May 1989       UFO Sightings

5/XX    BURLEIGH CO., ND     XXXX       TRACE       XXXX
    Bare spots 55'x 68' & 37'x 43' w/bulbous portrusions.
5/01    WARRINGTON, FL.      8:45 pm       CE1          Single witness
    Thirty foot, "bow-tie". No sound.  2 min.
5/02    GULF BREZE, FL.      EVEN.       NL          Multiple witness
    Two groups of people saw obj. w/ red, white and grn. lites.
5/02    LOUISVILLE, KY.      5:15 AM       CE1          Single witness
    Wit. saw a "big bright light" stationary in the sky under a cloud
    layer, which began moving in a circular pattern. Lite moved toward
    witness. As witness started vehicle to leave area, lite stopped 100ft
    away, then moved right to left and out of site.
5/04    FAIRFIELD CO., CT.   9:30 PM       NL          Multiple witness
    Several reports. One object, football field size, humming sound, "V"-
    shape. 30 min. Airport says hoaxers.
5/08    WALWORTH, NY.         9:45 PM       CE1          Two witnesses
    Wit. was looking out window when she noticed a dark obj. approaching
    below treetop level. It was "whale shaped" and black in color. Heard
    sound like that of helicopter, house shook. Sec. wit. said it was "all
    steel, totally solid", and was about 50 ft long.
5/06    FERNDALE, WA.         10:00PM       CE1          Five witnesses
    Witnesses saw lite form low in sky which appeared to be stationary. As
    they watched, a second form joined the first then one moved away at a
    high rate of speed. The second form descended toward the ground then
    moved toward the witnesses. It passed overhead at rooftop level. It was
    described as "really huge" and long & wide and moving without sound. It
    appeared to land in an open field then vanished.  Dur. 15 min.
5/10    BAUTISTA CANYON, CA.   7:45 PM       CE3          Single witness
    30 foot craft, 6-8 beings. EM-effects and TV. Humming sound. 11 min.
5/10    FARMINGTON HILLS, MI.  Midnite       CE2          Two witnesses
    Large greenish-silver dasc-shaped object, turned on end and paced car
    for about two hours. Car radio stopped working and electrical system
    quit working.
5/17    PITTSBURG, PA.         2:57 AM       NL          Two witnesses
    Oval object w/ lites.  No sound. 3 min.
5/20    ITHACA, NY.         9:00 PM       NL          Seventy-five wit.
    Eight blimp like objects seen by 75 persons, one time over Carl Sagan's
    home? Humming sound. 1 Hr.
5/20    LONG EDDY, PA.         10:32 PM       NL          Nine witnesses
    Large triangular pattern of three lites. Generator sound.
5/21    PINE MILL, PA.         11:00 PM       NL          Two witnesses
    Eight lites, 2 wings, curved front. Not a plane or `copter. "Whirr" sd.
5/21    LAKE COMO, PA.         EVEN       NL          Single witness
    Eleven lites, 3 formed a triangle on front. No sound. 7 min.
5/28    CAPE COD, MA.         1:45 PM       DD          Multiple witness
    Grey sphere came within 25' of copter at Otis AFB. No sound. 15 min.
5/28    EAST ISLIP, NY.      9:00 PM       DD          Single witness
    Unusual amt. of military copters & F-16 activity. Chasing cigar. 2 Hrs.
5/30    MT. VERNON, IN.      10:39 PM       XX          XX
    UFO Filter Ctr. MADAR, recorded magnetic disturbances. One pulse.
5/30    MT. VERNON, IN.      11:14 PM       XX          XX
    UFO Filter Ctr. MADAR, recorded magnetic disturbances.    Three pulses.
5/31    LONG ISLAND, NY.     XXXX       TRACE      XXXX
    Possible landing circle at Heckscher Park near a sighting.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    JULY 1989      UFO REPORTS

7/02    BELLINGHAM, MA.      MIDNITE       CE1          Single witness
    Basketball sized OBOL's in woods, 5 came within 70'. No sound.
7/03    ANZA VALLEY, CA.     11:30 PM       NL          Two witnesses
    Enormous craft, "like sgt's stripes" sped toward lake. No sound.
7/09    ANZA VALLEY, CA.     12:05 AM       NL          Two witnesses
    Couple saw strange lights on rocky hill where no vehicles could go.
    No sound. Seven minutes duration.
7/10    WOODLAND, CA.         2:00 AM       NL          Two witnesses
    Object flashing 2 or 3 greem & white lights. No sound.
7/15    SIOUX FALLS, S.D.    8:20 PM       DD          Four witnesses
    Dark object with flat ends. hovered. Ten minutes. No sound.
7/15    ITHACA, N.Y.         10:00 PM       NL          Multiple witness
    Sounds like NIGHT SIEGE all over again. 80 calls to pol. Noise. 7 min.
7/16    MIDWEST          1:15 AM       Booster re-entry
    NORAD/On SE path & visible for approximately 30 seconds.
7/16    MYRTLE BEACH, S.C.   XXXXX       NL          Two witnesses
    Two witnesses took video of enormous ball of fire. Listed last month.
7/16    N. CHARLESTON, N.C.  1:35 AM       NL          Multiple witness
    Many people fishing in several locations saw object. No sound.
7/16    CHARLESTON, S.C.     1:30 AM       NL          Multiple witness
    Dark shapeless object, 300 to 500' long w/sparks at 1500'. No sound.
7/16    NEW HARMONY, IN.     10:15 PM       CE1          Single witness
    Giant round object at tree-top level lit up area. hovered, then
    floated. No sound. 2 minutes.
7/16    TYBEE ISLE, S.C.     2:00 AM       NL          Single witness
    Large fireball reported by policeman. No sound. Seconds.
7/16    HILTON HD ISLE, S.C. 1:30 AM       NL          Single witness
    Fireball, witness said not a meteor. No sound. Seconds.
7/16    SAVANNAH, S.C.         1:30 AM       NL          Multiple witness
    FAA & Charleston airport received numerous calls. No sound. Seconds.
7/16    GEORGETOWN, S.C.     1:45 AM       NL          Five witnesses
    Swimmers saw object, bright in front, tail in back, with white lines
    on sides. No sound.
7/18    DUTTON, AL.         MIDNITE       NL          Two witnesses
    Light observed before thunderstorm, warned by psychic. No sound.
7/22    TRENTON, ME.         3:00 AM       DD          Two witnesses
    Pilots of Beechcraft saw oblong UFO over Bass Harnor. Power outage on
    ground. No sound. 2 minutes.
7/25    SMITHTOWN, N.Y.      9:30 PM       NL          Three witnesses
    Witnesses heard helicopters, saw one chasing red/orange ball. 90 sec.
7/26    HONEDALE, PA.         1:00 AM       CE1          Three witnesses
    Round object, two sightings within an hour. Sound. 1 hour.
7/XX    LANDING, N.J.         3:30 AM       CE1          Three witnesses
    13 to 15 ft. silver disc. No sound. 10 seconds.

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    AUGUST 1989    UFO REPORTS

8/10    MILWAUKEE, WI.         3:30 AM     NL    2 wit.       No sound    25 min.
    Terrified couple, fishing on waters near Omro saw object fall, hover.
8/13    MANSURA, LA.         10:30 AM     CE2    2 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Small disc 30' away just above lawn left swirls. Vertical ascent.
8/18    LINCOLNTON, N.C.     3:00 PM     DD    1 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Red/brown triangular object size of Stealth bomber near nuclear plant
    300' off ground.
8/21    TRUSSVILLE, AL.      5:00 AM     NL    + wit.       No sound    30 min.
    Police reports of disc shaped object w/colored lites.
8/21    ASHVILLE, N.C.         5:30 AM     NL    + wit.       No sound    30 min.
    Oval w/two tails. One end faded, the other grew.
8/21    NASA BLAMES SDI TEST FOR NC SIGHTINGS. (Could this NASA test of the
    SDI cause sightings in Alabama?  F.R.)
8/22    PENSACOLA, FL.         Night     NL    + wit.       No sound    2 hrs.
    Dark shapes and numerous lites approached each other.
8/22    GULF BREEZE, FL.     Night     CE1    2 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Triangle 50 to 100' on a side, hovered over trees. Maneuvered.
8/23    NAVARRE BEACH, FL.   Night     NL    + wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Several saw triangular form over bay. Two huge red lites & yellow ctr.
8/23    GULF BREEZE, FL.     Night     NL    2 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    White or silver delta, 70' on side, passed overhead.
8/26    MINERAL POINT, PA.   5:00 PM     NL    9 wit.       No sound    45 min.
    Rotating sphere maneuvered, reversed direction twice.
8/31    BUTLER, PA.         9:00 PM     NL    + wit.       No sound    10 min.
    Mushroom w/lite hovered in field, 2 lites emerged. AF jets in area
    within one half hour.
8/31    TRUMBULL, CT.         9:00 PM     NL    1 wit.       Monotone    15 min.
    Not an a/c, would hover, then shoot off in another direction.
8/31    TRUMBULL, CT.        11:00 PM     NL    + wit.       No sound     7 min.
    Series of lights in "V" pattern buzzed city.
8/31    MONROE, CT.        11:00 PM     NL    4 wit.       No sound     7 min.
    EMT & three others in ambulance saw object coming head on.
8/31    CAMBRIA CO., PA.     9:30 PM     NL    + wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Lights. No other details available.
8/31    HUNTINGTON, CT.     11:00 PM     NL    1 wit.       XXXX      7 min.
    Motorcyclist on Rt. 8 says he saw 5 airplanes flying in formation.
8/31    WESTMORELAND CO., PA.    10:15 PM   NL    + wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Lights. No other details available.
8/31    TRUMBULL, CT.         Night     CE1    2 wit.       Humming    XXXX
    Object 100' in air, just above trees, hovering.
8/31    BRIDGEPORT, CT.      11:00 PM     NL    + wit.       No sound     7 min.
    Dim lights in diamond pattern buzzed city.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    SEPTEMBER 1989       UFO REPORTS

9/XX    XXXX, IOWA         XXXX     TC    XX       Not appl.
    Seen on A CURRENT AFFAIR. Farmer found rings in field.
9/02    MT. VERNON, IN.      8:00 PM     NL    3 wit.       No sound    Seconds
    Bright cigar-shaped fireball seen by two independent witnesses.
9/03    EBENSBURG, PA.         Night     CE1    1 wit.       No sound    15 sec.
    Rotating object moved at utility line height near car, no EM.
9/08    GRAND FORKS, ND.     5:40 AM     NL    1 wit.       No sound    15 sec.
    Air base A1C saw amber lights criss-cross. Says NOT meteor.
9/09    LONG ISLAND, NY.     2:30 AM     NL    2 wit.       No sound    7 min.
    Light observed about 40' over water in Oyster Bay.
9/09    GULF BREEZE, FL.     Night     NL    3 wit.       No sound    2 min.
    Dull disc-shaped object w/lites joined by 4 identical vehicles.
9/11    KALAMAZOO, MI.         9:15 PM     CE2   +3 wit.       No sound    15 min.
    Object with stubby wings near nose. Tubes and pipes seen. Hovered.
9/12    PENSACOLA, FL.         7:55 PM     NL    35 wit.       No sound    7 min.
    35 people, 12 MUFON FIs, observed and photo'd lite that maneuvered.
9/13    BANGOR, PA.         7:45 AM     DD    2 wit.       No sound    7 min.
    Two separate sightings of odd, squarish & dark metallic object.
9/14    CANTONMENT, FL.      Night     CE1    2 wit.       Low hum    3 min.
    Inverted cones hovered low over neighbor's house. Jet activity.
9/16    FLUSHING, NY.         1:00 AM     NL    5 wit.       No sound    3 hrs.
    Bright object with tiny lights 75-100' over lake.
9/17    MT. VERNON, IN.      8:43 PM     NL    1 wit.       No sound    7 min.
    Video taken of lite that brightened up.
9/20    OLDWICK, NJ.         7:30 AM     DD    +1 wit.       No sound    15 min.
    Box-like diamond hovered nr Rt. 78, big as full moon.
9/21    MT. VERNON, IN.      8:15 PM     NL    3 wit.       No sound    10 min.
    V or wing w/red lites headed toward St. Louis. FAA couldn't ID.
9/24    EVANSVILLE, IN         9:40 PM     NL    1 wit.       No sound     4 min.
    Security guard observed distant diffused Orange Ball of Light.
9/25    ST. LOUIS, MO.         Night     NL    + wit.       No sound     XXXX
        No soundserved dis, x-lik
9/25    MT. VERNON, IN.      8:00 PM     NL    3 wit.       No sound    SecondsXX       Not appl.8    Two separate sightings of odd, squarish & dark metallic object.   Seconds

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    OCTOBER 1989       UFO REPORTS

10/XX    MEMPHIS, TN.         5:30 PM     NL    2 wit.       Not appl.   XXXX
    Pilot saw shiny ball 2x's size of two seater a/c, 800 mph+.
10/XX    GREENVILLE, MS.      Day     DD    1 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Crop duster saw maneuvering 90' orange ball.
10/XX    CUMMING, IA.         Night     CE1    1 wit.       No sound    10 min.
    Object over fisherman at 600', size of truck or house.
10/XX    WELCH, OK.         Night     CE3    1 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Family out driving saw two 9' green glowing beings. Exact date unknown.
10/04    PEKIN, IL.         XXXX     NL    MW       No sound    XXXX
    Torpedo object at alt. of 25,000', accompanied by spheres. Angel hair.
10/07    MT. VERNON, IN.      8:10 PM     NL    1 wit.       No sound    10 sec.
    Strange light switched on-off twice, passed over city.
10/08    MILFORD, MI.         3:30 AM     CE1    1 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Security guard saw object on ground which took off vertically.
10/09    PENSACOLA, FL.         Night     CE1    5 wit.       No sound    10 sec.
    Disc, 200' from car, wobbled and raised above trees.
10/09    GULF BREEZE, FL.     Night     CE1    3 wit.       Humming     XXXX
    Conical glowing object approached 300-500' overhead.
10/10    MEMPHIS, TN.         6:00 PM     NL    1 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Pilot flying near Clarksdale & Memphis saw metallic craft.
10/10    COMMERCE, OK.         8:30 PM     NL    MW       No sound    Hours
    Law enforcement, Civil Air Patrol, others report strange lights.
10/10    SOUTHWEST PART MO.   Night     NL    MW       No sound    XXXX
    No details.
10/10    NORTHWEST PART ARK.  Night     NL    MW       No sound    XXXX
    No details.
10/11    COMMERCE, OK.         Night     NL    MW       No sound    4 hrs.
    Lights observed for four hours. Sounds like stars.
10/11    BAXTER SPRINGS, KS.  9:00 PM     NL    MW       Whizzing    4 hrs.
    More lights seen for hours, changed colors.
10/11    RIDGEWAY, PA.         8:30 PM     NL    1 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Two lights near Big Dipper, 12 minutes later one moved.
10/11    CRESTWOOD, KY.         11:30 PM     NL    1 wit.       No sound    16 min.
    Pinkish-amber circular object maneuvered within 400 yds.
10/11    FYLINE, IA.         Night     NL    MW       No sound    XXXX
    Several sightings of strange lights near Missouri border.
10/12    GREENVILLE, MS.      4:35 AM     NL    1 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Orange Ball of Light observed by pilot driving to work.
10/12    WEST PLAINES, MO.    8:20 PM     NL    MW       No sound    15 min.
    Orange ball observed by several, sometimes dough-nut shaped.
10/12    BERNADOTTE, IL.      8:20 PM     NL    3 wit.       No sound    2.5 min.
    Two balls of light would blink. One went N, other E.
10/12    EAST KINGSTON, N.H.  8:50 PM     NL    2 wit.       No sound    30 sec.
    4-5 round objects in tight formation heading W-E, pulsing wh to grn.
10/12    BRADFORD, PA.         10:OO PM     CE2    1 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    TV went out, objects with lights passed over house.
10/13    WEST PLAINS, MO.     9:40 PM     NL    MW       No sound    XXXX
    Observed through telescope. Object moved south
10/17    DAVIS COUNTY, IA.    Night     NL    MW       No sound    XXXX
    Possibly Venus.
10/18    CHEROKEE COUNTY, KS. 8:00 PM     NL    MW       No sound    8 min.
    Deep red objects hovered, then disappeared, returned.
10/20    CRESTED BUTTE, CO.   Night     NL    MW       No sound    XXXX
    Lady reported obj/redhaze to police who giggled til 911 call came in.
10/20    HUNTSVILLE, AR.      5:10 AM     NL    2 wit.       No sound    30 min.
    Witnesses took several 110 pictures of red glow.
10/22    HATFIELD, AR.         8:00 PM     NL    MW       No sound    30 min.
    Globe, like a firecracker with straws of light.
10/23    PINE BLUFF, AR.      Night     NL    1 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Sheriff Dept. Sgt. reported obj. low on horizon. Possibly Venus.
10/23    RICHMOND, VA.         7:30 PM     NL    3 wit.       No sound    30 min.
    Light, within two city blocks, observed by family in car.
10/23    CHAPEL, AR.         8:00 PM     NL    MW       No sound    90 min.
    Many people & law enforcement saw lights. Possible CE1.
10/24    MARBLEHEAD, MA.      10:30 PM     NL    1 wit.       Whistle     5 sec.
    Blue fireball, explained.
10/26    SAN DIEGO, CA.         6:15 AM     NL    MW       No sound    7 min.
    Many reported bright light w/glowing conical area beneath.
10/26    NEWPORT, AR.         6:55 PM     NL    MW       Popping     90 min.
    Disc or cone flying low and slow, seen in seven counties.
10/26    MUSKOGEE, OK.         7:20 PM     NL    MW       No sound    XXXX
    Colored, (mostly green) rapidly moving lights streaked southward again.
10/27    HUNTSVILLE, AR.      4:45 AM     NL    2 wit.       No sound    25 min.
    Witnesses took photos of orange obj. w/columns of light. Missing time.
10/27    ARKANSAS         4:50 AM     NL    MW       No sound    XXXX
    Physician, bow hunting, & several others saw weird orng cld on horizon.
10/28    LONGMONT, CO.         11:45 PM     NL    1 wit.       No sound    2 sec.
    Flame red fireball, smokey trail vertical descent. Explained.
10/29    EL PASO, TX.         7:00 PM     NL    2 wit.       No sound    4 sec.
    Bright white fireball. Explained.
10/30    FT. WALTON BCH, FL.  Night     NL    2 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Two rows of lights in cross within undefined grey, slick shape.
10/31    GREENVILLE, S.C.     Night     NL    2 wit.       No sound    7 sec.
    Lights in V-shape or checkmark on video. Humanoid reported in window.
10/31    DANBURY, CT.         Night     NL    MW       No sound    XXXX
    Erratic flying light. 5-6 calls.
10/31    BETHEL, CT.         Night     NL    MW       No sound    XXXX
    Erratic flying light. As above.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    UFO REPORTS    NOVEMBER 1989

11/XX    NEWBURG, IN.         Night     NL    MW       No sound    XXXX
    Object over power station scared witnesses. Possible CE1.
11/XX    CREVE COUER, MO.     9:00 AM     DD    1 wit.       No sound    30 sec.
    Three rectangles observed in clouds.
11/01    OREGON             5:39 PM     NL    MW       No sound    3 sec.
    Blue-green fireball. Explained.
11/02    PEKIN, IL.         8:15 PM     NL    2 wit.       No sound    3 sec.
    Yellow-white fireball, bright as moon.
11/02    GULF BREEZE, FL.     9:40 PM     CE1    2 wit.       Humming     5 min.
    Three bell-shaped objects, gray-blue, illuminated.
11/02    WHISPER BAY, FL.     9:30 PM     CE1    2 wit.       Humming     XXXX
    Three bell-shaped objects, gray-blue, illuminated.
11/10    HOLMES COUNTY, OH.   Night     TR    MW       N/A
    Dogs barked on Friday, the 10th. Large circle, burn, 40-50' wide found.
11/12    INDIANAPOLIS, IN.    Midnite     NL    MW       No sound    XXXX
    Video of NLs taken. Lights maneuvered at high speed.
11/12    FORT WAYNE, IN.      9:15 PM     NL    2 wit.       No sound    8 min.
    Dome w/lites observed. very unusual light patterns.
11/15    GULF BREEZE, FL.     9:00 PM     NL    2 wit.       No sound    6 sec.
    Beige cigar, 20-40' long went behind trees. Possible CE1.
11/15    SHORELINE PARK, FL.  XXXX     TC    XX       N/A           XXXX
    Strange circular depression found. Note prior sighting.
11/22    GREENWOOD, IN.         Night     NL    1 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Extremely bright lite observed. Possible CE4.
11/28    EVANSVILLE, IN.      1:30 AM     NL    1 wit.       No sound    3 min.
    Security guard saw slow orange ball that later had steady red lite.
11/30    PENSACOLA, FL.         6:30 PM     NL    6 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Huge glowing object hovered over Gulf, then moved west.
11/30    MIDWAY AREA, FL.     10:00 PM     NL    1 wit.       No sound    7 min.
    Car, EM effects, 2 very large triangular objects, 100' above ground.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    UFO REPORTS     DECEMBER 1989

12/XX    CARMEL, IN.         2:00 AM     CE2    2 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Object like "space shuttle" maneuvered over car, fuses blown.
12/01    INDIANAPOLIS, IN.    9:00 PM     NL    3 wit.       No sound    XXXX
    Copters prompted a looksee outside, "boomerang" UFO observed outside.
12/13    GLEN RIDGE, N.J.     11:10 PM     NL    2 wot.       No sound    5 min.
    Speckely thing, like half-tone negative darted around.
12/14    CHIMAYO, N.M.         8:30 PM     NL    MW       No sound    30 min.
    Several reports. One of a stealth surrounded by 7-8 lights.
12/15    MT. VERNON, IN.      6:03 PM     NU    MADAR       XXXX        XXXX
    Detection of magnetic anomaly. Sensor never returned to north.
12/17    MT. VERNON, IN.      9:14 AM     NU    MADAR       XXXX        XXXX
    Detection of magnetic anomaly. No return to north.
12/19    SIERRA CO., N.M.     11:00 PM     RV    MW       No sound    Hours.
    UFOs tracked on Radar near Socorro & Magdalena.
12/21    PENNSACOLE, FL.      12:30 AM     NL    1 wit.       No sound    5 min.
    Man saw object 200' over water. Bright beam from front.
12/21    MARTINSVILLE, IN.    1:00 AM     CE2    2 wit.       No sound    7 min.
    Rectangular object big as football field. Witnesses felt "pulsing".
12/21    INDIANAPOLIS, IN.    Night     CE2    2 wit.       No sound    7 min.
    Rect. object, big as football field. Possibly 12/22. See next entry.
12/22    MT. VERNON, IN.      10:49 AM     NU    MADAR       XXXX        XXXX
    Detection of magnetic anomoly. No auto return.
12/28    MT. VERNON, IN.      8:10 PM     NL    6 wit.       No sound    3 min.
    UFO Filter Ctr. observed object while remote car (toy) had mind of own.
12/28    WEST COAST OF U.S.   Night     NL    MW       No sound    XXXX
    Fireball observed from Grand Canyon to San Diego.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    January 1990     UFO Reports

1/XX    CEDAR RIDGE, CA.     12:30 A       NL          02 witnesses
    Bright & distant OBOLO zig-zagged in distance. No sound.  XXXX
1/01    EUGENE, OR.         12:12 A       NL          24 witnesses
    Five orange balls changed position in formation.  No sound. 20 min.
1/01    GULF BREEZE, FL.      6:30 P       NL          02 witnesses
    Women followed 10' elliptical w/lites down a street. No sound. 25 min.
1/04    NEWTON, N.J.          6:30 A       NL          02 witnesses
    Oval/disc paced car, maneuvered, brilliant lites. No sound. 07 min.
1/06    CRAWFORDSVILLE, IN.   2:30 A       NL          02 witnesses
    Big orange light circled & hovered within 1/2 mile. No sound. 20 min.
1/08    GULF BREEZE, FL.      6:30 P       NL          02 witnesses
    Witnesses saw disc shaped obj. dart below clouds. No sound. 20 min.
1/08    GULF BREEZE, FL.      6:28 P       NL          02 witnesses
    Ed and his wife/et al, took pictures of blk/disc. No sound. 32 min.
1/08    GULF BREEZE, FL.      6:30 P       NL          01 witnesses
    Disc complete with "power ring" observed by witness. No sound. XXXX
1/11    EVANSVILLE, IN.      12:06 A       NL          01 witness
    Amber light appeared to tumble. No sound. 03 min.
1/12    INDIANAPOLIS, IN.    MIDNITE       NL          04 witnesses
    Obj. with lites in circle, saucer-shaped. No sound.  05 min.
1/12    GULF BREEZE, FL.      8:30 P       NL          06 witnesses
    6 children saw 20' disc w/rect. windows low at 1/2 m. No sound. 07 min.
1/20    BOYLE, MS.          1:20 A       CE2          01 witness
    Disc dodging trees paced auto at low level. EM effects. No snd. 04 min.
1/21    WAUPACA, PA.          5:30 P       NL          XX
    Triangle w/ deep red lite on bottom. No sound. No other details.
1/22    JACKSON, MS.          2:32 P       SKY QUAKE  Multiple witness
    Sonic boom or "skyquake" only, no UFO. Unexplained.
1/22    MOUNTAIN HOME, AR.    DUSK       NL          Multiple witness
    Possible CE1, former copter pilot.  No sound.    20 min.
1/22    PORT GRAHAM, AK.      7:00 P       CE1          01 witness
    Wing with red and blue lites & spotlite observed. No sound.  XXXX
1/22    ENGLISH BAY, AK.      7:40 P       NL          02 witnesses
    Red lite, 50' altitude, range, 700'.  No sound.  XXXX
1/24    HERMISTON, OR.          4:35 P       DD          01 witness
    Two round objects with openings seen flying behind trees.  No sound.
1/24    WANAQUE, N.J.          9:30 P       CE1          03 witnesses
    Object w/lites/pointed frt/rnded back, passed over car. No snd. 20 min.
1/25    PANHANDLE FL.          2:10 P       SKYQUAKE   Multiple witness
    Tremors or "skyquake" shook area as far as Mobile. Unidentified source.
1/25    MINNEAPOLIS, MN.      6:15 A       NL          Multiple witness
    Green light, possible meteors, seen over 12 hr. period? No sound.  XXXX
1/25    LITTLE ROCK, AR.      6:20 A       NL          Multiple witness
    Sounds like fireball meteor.  No sound.  07 seconds.
1/27    PULASKI, VA.          7:00 P       NL          Multiple witness
    Probably a fireball meteor. Also seen in NW N.C. No sound. 07 seconds.
1/28    STOCKBRIDGE, MI.      XXXX       NL          Multiple witness
    Super large craft w/bright blue lites on perimeter. No sound.  XXXX
1/29    WELLMAN, IA.          9:00 P       NL          01 witness
    Huge dark mass, flanked by two beacons, lit by a halo. No sound. Brief.
1/31    BARTHOLOMEW, CO.     12:27 A       NL          Multiple witness
    Bright sparkling obj. seen. No sound. 20 min. No other details.
1/31    HARRISBURG, PA.       6:30 P       NL          02 witnesses
    Another "stingray" seen. Thought it was troubled a/c. No snd. 10 min.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceeding courtesy of:

Barbara Becker, UFO RESEARCH NETWORK, P.O. Box 19744, St. Louis, MO. 63144
Fran Ridge, UFO FILTER CTR., 618 Davis Dr., Mt. Vernon, IN. 47620
Bob Gribble, PHENOMENA RESEARCH, P.O. 1807, Seattle, WA. 98111
MUFONET BBS - John Komar-Sysop 1-901-785-4943 Memphis, Tenn.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- EOF --

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: Pyramid-shaped UFO sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 20:07:03 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 132
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2206 alt.conspiracy:7693 sci.skeptic:15662




----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------



Message #7643 - BAMA
   Date : 21-Sep-91 21:56
   From : John Powell
     To : James Nugent
Subject : sightings
Replies : #4930 <-

In a message to Jerry Woody <19 Sep 91 22:35> James Nugent wrote:

 JN> I am interested in any further information I can access about this
 JN> sighting and any sightings taking place in northern California.

I recently read a bunch of stuff/files that I had been meaning to get to and
found some info that you might be interested in regarding sightings in
California and Triangular UFOs.  All of those messages follow.

 JN> I am greatly interested in PYRAMIDAL shaped UFO sightings abroad.

I just posted, on the Fido UFO Echo, a highlight of a IUR article focusing on
Belgium which had a triangular and a pyramidal UFO mentioned.

You had asked Jerry about the difference between the triangular UFO and the
Pyramidal UFO.  From the descriptions I've read I would say the difference is
that a Pyramidal UFO looks very much like a pyramid, tall and pointed.  A
triangular UFO looks like a Pyramidal UFO with about 80% of the top sliced off
of it.

However, a Triangular UFO may really be a Pyramidal UFO depending on the angle
of view...

The Bentwaters Case involves a triangular object that was about 2 meters in
height.  A mini-flap in the mid-60's _and_ in the mid-80's in DC and Virginia
featured triangular-shaped UFOs.  The Hudson Valley flap featured a triangular
UFO as does the ongoing Fyffe flap.

Thanks, take care.
John.

--- XRS! 4.50+
 * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19)



Message #7644 - BAMA
   Date : 22-Sep-91  1:17
   From : John Powell
     To : James Nugent
Subject : Triangular UFOs

Triangular UFOs from the Project Blue Book Unknowns:

      July 13, 1950; Redstone Arsenal, Alabama. 5 p.m. Witnesses:
      two skilled Arsenal employees including Mr. Washburn. one
      object, shaped like a bowtie, and like polished aluminum.  Flew
      straight and level, then one triangle rotated 1/4 turn in the
      opposite direction and returned to its original position.  The
      object then made a right-angle turn and accelerated away after at
      least 30 seconds.

        Jan. 8, 1951; South of Ft. Worth, Texas. 10:45 p.m. Witnesses:
        Mr. and Mrs. W.J. Boggus, plus unidentified drivers and
        passengers in other cars stopped to watch.  Two groups of red and
        green lights in triangular formations were stationary and then
        moved.

       July 26, 1952; Kirtland AFB, New Mexico. 12:05 a.m. Witness:
       Airman lst Class J.M. Donaldson. Eight to ten orange balls in a
       triangular or V-formation flew very fast for 3-4 seconds.

       Aug. 29, 1952; west of Thule, Greenland (77' N., 75* 15' W.)
       10:50 a.m.  Witnesses:  two U.S. Navy pilots flying a P4Y-2
       patrol plane.  Three white disc-shaped or spherical objects
       hovered, then flew very fast in a triangular formation, in 2-3
       minutes.

       Sept. 14, 1952; North Atlantic, between Ireland and Iceland.
       Witnesses:  military persons from several countries aboard ships
       in the NATO "Operation Mainbrace" exercise.  Among the sightings:
       one blue-green triangle was observed flying 1,500 m.p.h; three
       objects in a triangular formation gave off white light exhaust at
       1,500 m.p.h.

       June 24, 1953; Simiutak, Greenland.  11:30 a.m.  Witness:
       weather observer A/2c R.A. Hill.  One red triangle hovered and
       rotated for 15 seconds, then climbed for 5 minutes.

       Aug. 23, 1960; Wichita, Kansas. 3::24 a.m.  Witness:  Boeing
       aeronautical engineer C.A. Komiske.  One round object with yellow
       lights coming from what looked like three triangular windows at
       bottom.  Object was dull orange.  Flew in an arc for 2 minutes.

       Sept. 3, 1965; Damon, Texas. 11 p.m.  Witnesses:  Brazoria
       County Chief Sheriff's Deputy Billy McCoy and Deputy Robert
       Goode. One triangular object, 150-200' long, 40-50' thick at
       middle and dark grey, with a long, bright, pulsing, purple light
       on the right side and a long blue light on the left side.  Came
       from distance to 150' off highway and 100' in the air.  Purple
       light illuminated ground beneath object and interior of police
       car.  Driver felt heat on his left arm.  Initial sighting lasted
       5-10 minutes.  Second sighting.occurred later that night.

 --- EOF ---

Don



--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sdrc!cinnet!bryan
From: [e-mail] (Bryan Klopfenstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Wants proof (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Summary: line noise??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Sep 91 23:35:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cincinnati Network, Cinti. OH
Lines: 9

[e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) writes:
> [..... He wants proof. Without]
> that, the 'Plieaidian transcripts' are about as useful as line noise.

I don't find line noise as entertaining, personally.
--
Bryan Klopfenstein                [e-mail]
Cincinnati Public Access Un*x                           ...!uunet!cinnet!bryan
Cincinnati Ohio                                 Voice: [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Not In Kansas Anymore!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Sep 91 03:33:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 25


 > From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
 > Date: 29 Sep 91 02:58:01 GMT
 > Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
 >
 > The four people who "disappeared" from Russell, Kansas recently are
 > alive
 > and well and on their way to Israel with Scott Corder, who apparently
 > made
 > a name for himself a few years ago by getting his medical license
 > revoked
 > for believing in a connection between UFOs and biblical prophecy.

Thanks for the update.  BTW, ParaNet ran an extensive story on this guy when
this stuff was coming out.  I will upload something to this newsgroup for
others to see.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Stanton T. Friedman
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Sep 91 03:37:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 21

For those interested and in the Colorado area:

MICAP (Multi-national Investigations Cooperative on Aerial Phenomena) will
host Stanton T. Friedman, a leading nuclear physicist and UFO lecturer, for
two conferences scheduled for Sunday, October 27, 1991, at the Glen Miller
East Ballroom at CU in Boulder starting at 7:00 P.M., and October 28, 1991, at
the Lindsey Auditorium at DU in Denver starting at 8:00 P.M.

As many of you know, Stan is considered to be very well informed on various
matters concerning UFO research.  He has been featured on numerous national
television programs, the latest on the Ron Reagan show.

If you wish further information, contact me voice at 303-431-8796, or email me
at [e-mail].

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Sep 91 17:09:39 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15673 alt.paranormal:3200 alt.alien.visitors:2210 talk.religion.newage:6993


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>Steve - Graziano comments and asks
>
>They further say that earth was created to be a galactic information exchange
>for all life.  So maybe the bar scene in Star Wars is really how our planet
>will be in the future.  We thought we had interracial problems, just wait to
>see what kind of interspecie problems we are going to have.
>
>Don Showen

Sounds like great fun to me. :-) ... We'll work it out, we always do.

Mary
---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Sep 91 20:03:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 40
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15678 alt.alien.visitors:2211

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>> We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we
>>> had previously dropped on at Los Alamos.
>
>Here's a minor quibble not especially related to our topic of whether
>flying saucers exist and if so whether they give rides.
>
>I don't think all that much was known in detail about A-bomb effects after
>the test at Trinity Site (a good 150 miles from Los Alamos, which is
>still there, by the way).  They knew that it would make a shock wave
>similar to that of several thousand tons of TNT, and that there would
>be plenty of neutrons and X-rays and a thermal pulse, and radioactive

[stuff deleted]

 The Trinity Site, where the first atomic bomb was detonated by Oppenheimer
and the boys was at a place called Alamagordo (spelling optional), I believe.
The bomb was not dropped. Joe calls it a "near ground burst", which
is probably a good description as any. The device was mounted on the
top of a tower and detonated from a distance. I believe the triggering device
was connected to the bunkers by wires. The bombs dropped on Japan were
triggered by radar pulses.

 Lucky for us, the bomb did not start the atmosphere on fire. I believe it
was Edward Teller who determined that the earth would not be set alight.
At any rate, Teller later went on to build the "Super", or fusion bomb as
we now know it.

  Teller is the model for Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove. "If mobility is not
a problem, we can make them as large as you like..." or something like that.


  Joe (a different one)


--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.:
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 01:21:25 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 281
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:6998 alt.alien.visitors:2212 alt.paranormal:3205


      MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES
                of the
          Parapsychology Society Subcommittee
                United Nations
              New York, New York
               October 15, 1990

Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma
Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich.
All rights reserved. This message may be copied for the sole purpose
of sharing it with others. No part of this message may be published,
printed, transmitted, stored in a retrieval system, or translated into
any other human language without the express permission of The Alpha
Connection, Inc., Suite 204, 7410 Montgomery Blvd., NE, Albuquerque,
NM 87109.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kuthumi, I surround myself with Love and Light and request that you
send me a transmission this evening. What message do you with to
deliver to the United Nations group on October 15, 1990?

Dearest daughter in the Light of the Most Radiant One. I, Kuthumi,
come through this frequency this evening to honor you and your
assignment to speak to a most distinguished group at the World
Headquarters for Peace. I am honored to address this gathering of
individuals, for this is a first time in the history of your modern
civilization that we have been granted the opportunity to address such
a distinguished audience with the dignity and respect for which we
have yearned. We are gathered in the chambers of the Tribunal Council
Assembly Hall on board the Starship Phoenix to witness an historic
moment in the history of humankind.

We move with much precision and deliberation to assure there will be
no room for error in the receiving of this transmission. So let us
begin.

The tribute we first wish to being to our sons and daughters of planet
Earth is a salute from the Most Radiant One, Sananda. We motion to all
that we understand and witness the yearning in your hearts for the
return of the Highest Being that has yet graced the surface of your
beloved Terra. We hail from the seventh dimensional ethers to first
speak to your hearts and then to your minds, for it is in the
receiving of these words with your hearts, that Sananda wishes you to
know that His love and devotion will soon be felt by all to an even
greater intensity then what you presently witness.

The message we bring is a collective one from the Tribunal Council of
the Galactic Command. It brings the gifts of love and peace to all who
hear the words and understand the truths that are inherent within the
lines. We have collectively prepared this message to help you
understand the depth and the breadth of the importance of these words,
for it is in the collective that we have formulated the direction
towards which we hope humanity will turn in the coming decade of the
nineties.

Before we begin, look around you, Oh Children of Terra, and focus on
the goodness and Light within each soul. See the surrender of the ego
to the Godself within, and know that when your inner eye sees this
radiance in all, you are on the path to the Light and the ascended
realms. Measure everyone with the rod of goodness and perceive the
darkness not, for it is in the sight from restored eyes that you will
soon be able to see the beautiful Light within yourselves, as well.

The world faces difficult times ahead, as we measure the direction of
the ethers. In this situation you must believe that no future is
secure except that which you alone create. You have the power in the
collective and in the singular to change any direction for the fate of
the Earth. As you move with quiet surrender and focus your hearts on
the Light and love of Sananda, know with much assurance that you will
not be disappointed. His radiance is everywhere and will soon be
prevalent even among those who do not understand or sense Him today.

The physical structure in which you are meeting is situated on a
global ley line that is synchronized with several power spots on your
planet. It also connects many sacred energy points in the etheric, as
well. The positioning of this Center for Peace was not accidental in
its design and construction, for in the universal plan for peace this
location was deemed to be of great importance.

What this means for you and the direction for the world is that the
window of time has been placed in the country of the United States of
America. The mirror for this realization is found in the beloved
capital city you call Washington, D.C. Have you never wondered, oh
children, why the Washington Monument contains the pyramid on its
structure? Have you never wondered why the great symbol of this same
structure was placed on your medium for exchange, which is what has
given you power till this present time? Can you not see that these
symbols are deliberate and that they are impressed in your essence to
connect you to your etheric roots, which are situated in another area
of your globe?

For the world, the Center for Peace mirrors the power of your great
capital city. These two energy vortexes contain the power to direct
the future of humankind. On one vortex sits the capital for world
governments that can control the balance of power of the people. On
the other vortex sits the capital of the people, which controls the
power for the vortex of the world. In this mirroring effect comes the
choice for all of you in the future race for time. Who will rule the
direction of your planet as the sands of the Sahara run through the
hour glass of time? Will it be the government of the people or the
people's government?

This question must be asked and pondered in the decade to come, for
the answer will change the future and the events that will befall. May
we, as the collective voice of the Tribunal Council, suggest that if
this question is answered from the heart and not the mind, a clearer
picture on the horizon for all will be seen. We state that if you
ponder the direction with your heart and feel its quiet voice guide
you that you will experience the confidence and peace for which you
yearn.

Truth is always in the heart. It is the sacred potent that directs
each and all to the highest forms of consciousness and the law. It
takes the darkness which surrounds the soul and brings in the Light of
freedom. It moves the mountains and positions them in ways where new
mysteries are discovered by all.

We, on the ascended realms , await the time when the children of Earth
do freely choose freedom and truth over the constraints of bondage. We
await for the moments of triumph when the masses will no longer cry
for the relief of the Most Radiant One. We have compassion for those
who do not see with eyes of clear vision. We know that in the pain and
the waiting there is also joy, for in the Oneness of the Creator all
is contained within.

The choices that will have to be made in the next decade will be those
that will bring either great hardships or delights to the people of
Earth. They will challenge all to know their values and limits, for
the forces that manifest both fear and love will be intensified. In
the moments or trial, oh dear ones, know what only love can win out
over darkness and fear. Know that the vibration of the Light is the
highest frequency there is and that this vibration will consume all of
the darkness. Understand that the trials are only those which you
impose upon yourselves, and work to discipline your minds and hearts
to follow the higher agenda of the Godforce.

We will assist any soul who comes forth in courage and dedication to
raise its vibrations to that of love and Light. We will bring the
gifts of the Magi to any who establishes a frequency of strength
through visualizing the Light within their essence and physical
structures. Know that you are guided always and that you do not walk
alone, for your elder sisters and brothers on the higher realms are
forever watching and protecting all who seek our strength. This is so!

Work first on yourselves and then seek to find the goodness in others.
Should you do so, you will find that this mirroring effect will result
in the perfection of both your inner and outer sight. Use this
technique then to being the peace and fulfillment of God's plan to the
world, for it is through your consciousness that the world will be
shaped.

You understand not the power you contain within your own essence. You
understand not the fortitude and strength that you really do command.
Many give their power away to those who deserve it not, only because
the strength of another's convictions is stronger than their own.

The contests of change and control manifest through the strength of
the will. These situations manifest through the intensity of the
emotions you exhibit. Know that your strength of commitment to change
is only as strong as your dedication to do so. If you choose to
acknowledge our words as truth, then you shall quickly discover that
your power has no limits.

We await to assist you on your journey to transform the Earth into a
Garden of Eden in the galaxy. We only wait to be asked. Know that
through our strength and support that the mountains will be moved and
that the streams will be purified. Believe in your hearts that the
animal kingdom will once again be free and that the birds will fly
with grace and spirit, should you begin the journey of bringing all
kingdoms back into the higher thought realms.

We see on the horizon the potential for the children of Earth to make
the desired changes for peace and prosperity. We do not, however, see
the commitment or awareness of our presence in your hearts, that we
are here to assist you. We have been waiting for a long time to assist
you on your Earth journey, and now proclaim we are here to do so. In
this proclamation we only wait for you to ask.

Many ask why we do not show ourselves to you in the physical form at
your beckoning. Others wonder why we do not speak to them. We tell you
that we are with all of you in your daily lives and that your sight
need only be opened with the changing of your frequencies, for in the
twinkling of an eye you can command the power to see and to know of
our presence.

The Galactic Command presently resides on a frequency that is higher
than that of Earth's. It is a vibrational measurement that speaks to
the refinement of the ethers. In this other dimension, we see and hear
the lower frequencies, but you believe that you do not have the power
to see us. Should you choose to refine your paths and individual
vibrational frequencies to match that of ours, which is closer to the
speed of Light, then you too will command the power of inner and outer
sight.

Each of us selected to accelerate our own paths in former incarnations
on your beloved planet. We have learned the curriculum of the Earth
and were granted the privilege of journeying to the higher realms of
consciousness. This provides us now with the opportunity to work with
each of you to help all who wish to journey to our home. We admit
those with the compatible frequency that allows the qualities of love
and Light to emanate form their souls. We call all to our home, but
only few are chosen, for it is you who do the choosing.

The choices you will collectively and singularly make in the decade to
come will be difficult for some and easy for others. The choices will
guarantee your futures and that of the planet's. You will see with
greater clarity the truths of what we impart this day, in the months
and years to come. Then you will know that our presence is real.

Should you turn inward to your heart you will know today that we are
with you always. Should you scoff and ignore, then you will prolong
the pain and the yearning for the return of the Most Radiant One. For
Sananda is coming to reclaim his lambs, and will touch each on both
the heart and inner eye areas. This gesture will awaken all who choose
to re-awaken after the long night of the dream.

We seek to bring the Light to the Earth and continue to channel the
higher vibrations into its essence from the Starships upon which we
ride. We have great power, but will not interfere because of the
universal law of non-interference. We honor and respect this law and
know that in obeying it, we stand in the truths which we created. You
too can stand in the truths should you choose, by turning your
consciousness to the higher thought forms and participating in the
laws that govern this parsec of the universe.

In the years to come the Earth will be cleansed of the negativity that
has choked its beauty. The options of how this will be accomplished
are yours. Choose those options from the position of the heart, Oh
Dear Ones, to lessen the pain of the inevitable. Cast aside the
darkness and the shadows in the minds from this day forward, and know
that the darkness is only the illusion. You have sixteen fears to
conquer on your paths of initiation. Know that as you tremble and draw
each to you, that you quickly pass the challenge and move on to higher
tests of courage. Stand as spiritual warriors, like your sisters and
brothers of the stars. Feel their presence and strength in the Light.
Let no mortal take your power or conviction that God protects and
watches over the children of Light. Rest in this assurance and see
that the long, dark night of the soul is finally drawing to an end.

You have been washed free of karmic debts as of the point of
convergence of the harmonies. The sound vibrations have intersected in
your souls with the colors of the Light frequencies of Sananda. Feel
this forgiveness and know that your debts have been paid. Look upward
now and see that your salvation is truly in the hands of the Great
Central Sun and Creator of the All. That is why we suggested in the
beginning that you look outward and see the perfection in each that
resides beside you.

We close this communication to you know, with an invitation to join us
in the chambers of the Tribunal Council. Under normal protocol, this
chamber is reserved for dignitaries who grace our ships with intention
and duty. We invite you to come to us in your dream states on the
etheric and in your meditations, and if you should do so, we will
grant you the voting power of the Center of Peace aboard the Phoenix.

Vote with confidence if you are admitted. As we have stated, it is you
who do the choosing. You are the ones who understand the days and the
nights. You are also the ones who know the power that you have taken
from yourselves.

Oh Children, remember that "Of you, you do nothing. It is the Father
within you that does it all." Work to bring your consciousness to the
Godself above you and connect to your Higher Self. Feel its presence
and discipline yourselves to reclaim your own divinity. It surely will
be restored in a brief moment of time.

This is the truth. This is the way.

We discontinue this transmission now, for our Daughter in the Light is
getting weak from our energy. We thank you for inviting us to present
our message through her this evening. We look forward to the time when
we will communicate to each of you in the same, direct manner, for
that is truly the most desirable goal.

Stand tall and in beauty, sisters and brothers of the stars.

I AM Kuthumi, your Father and World Teacher for the next millennium.
Good evening in the radiance of the Highest. Adonai.
--
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!jpl-devvax!aloise
From: [e-mail] (Jim Aloise)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.:
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 04:09:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Jim Aloise)
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:7002 alt.alien.visitors:2213 alt.paranormal:3208

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
>      MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES
>                of the
>          Parapsychology Society Subcommittee
>                United Nations
[deleted (with pleasure)]
>We discontinue this transmission now, for our Daughter in the Light is
>getting weak from our energy.

She's not the only one to get weak from your energy.

>We look forward to the time when
>we will communicate to each of you in the same, direct manner, for
>that is truly the most desirable goal.

About as desirable as diarrhea.

>I AM Kuthumi, your Father and World Teacher for the next millennium.
>Good evening in the radiance of the Highest. Adonai.

Yeah, good night Dad.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The West NY Sightings (part ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 04:55:51 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 41

West NY UFO parts 1 & 2
The `Westchester Wing' Theory

All was going well until ...SPECULATION.
Then came all the bullshit! - Sorry unfounded speculation. Why do people have to
destroy all their hard work with such biased "guessing'?

There was no mention of anything that could not be explained by (say) one or
more helicopters suspending a giant wing-shaped balloon with navigation lights
on it with a very long wire. "It seemed very thin" and the author had been
temporarily fooled by a formation fly-over by aircraft.


Theory 1: They may have been testing the radar effects of the stealth bomber
wing. And witnesses reported helicopters - dark blue ones, military style.


Theory 2: They may have been advertising the tv show V, as suggested. It was
over an affluent population and the owner of the helicopter was from California -
(Hollywood?). Remember Orson Wells' War of the Worlds!


Theory 3: They were testing/debugging the latest cruise missile terrain-sensing
software, requiring slow close-to-ground real-time feedback.

I could go on but what is the point. The author speculated that anti-aircraft
missiles were destroyed, guidance systems knocked out, interceptors lost, radar
jammed, a superior culture was responsible, an alien UFO agency, visitors, or
groups of visitors, unconsious telepathy, psychic interaction(!?), lights saying
"hello", nuclear weapons storage surveillance, aliens serving a purpose -
reinforcing UFO reality, a superior culture which will not allow nuclear
conflict.

Phew....:-)......He forgot abductees, implants and missing time.
                 No doubt these will be found in the near future.

The author could have looked for earthly explanations, if he had an open mind.
But no.....It reflects a psychological need for a GOD-like solution;a magic
pill; a need to see all current authority replaced by a new order (himself?)

AFTER ALL, WHY LET A FEW FACTS SPOIL A GOOD STORY / INCOME.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!emory!att!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Corder posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Sep 91 21:27:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 185


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally from Michael Corbin
 * Originally dated 09-30-91 14:21

The following is the report on Dr. Scott Corder, whom we featured in our
International Predictions Registry some time ago.  Keep in mind that ParaNet
heavily disclaimed this material from the start as our investigation into this
matter yielded considerable unreliable information.  It is posted for your
information only.

(C) 1991 ParaNet(sm) Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.
****************************************************************
ParaNet File Number: 00117


DATE OF UPLOAD:  June 30, 1989
ORIGIN OF UPLOAD:  ParaNet Alpha
CONTRIBUTED BY:   Michael Corbin and Jim Speiser
========================================================

By Michael Corbin
ParaNet Director

     DENVER,  CO--Recently  ParaNet  placed a file in  it's  News
Library concerning Dr.  Scott Corder and his on going battle with
the  medical authorities in the state of Kansas over his 'strange
beliefs' about UFOs.  According to the article (31789KS.UFO), Dr.
Corder  came  to  fame after claiming to be in  contact  with  an
'Amorcan' named 'Peter' who claims to represent the 'good side of
the force.'  This relationship between Dr.  Corder and Peter  has
yielded  some highly controversial material,  which you will see,
has  been instrumental in his medical license being  revoked  and
his  career  as  a medical doctor  stopped  short.   What  little
background  that we have on this thus far seems to indicate  that
Dr.  Corder and a confident, Donna Butts, have had some prophetic
and  apocalyptic revelations told to them by this entity known as
the Apostle Peter.

     I  recently interviewed Dr.  Corder by telephone at his home
and  he  told me what has led up to this  point.   What  I  found
particularly  interesting was the story that he told me about how
he  came  to the attention of the Medical Review  Board  for  the
State  of Kansas.   Dr.  Corder was an investigator for CUFOS and
was contacted by them to investigate Donna Butts' story of having
alien contact.   Upon contacting Ms.  Butts,  Dr. Corder began to
become  involved in what was taking place between Ms.  Butts  and
'Peter.'   He  began to become concerned when he  was  told  that
President  Bush could be in danger of an assassination attempt in
late 89.   He was instructed by 'Peter' to send this  information
to  the  White House and he was shortly contacted by the FBI  and
investigated for providing this information.   During the  course
of  the investigation,  the FBI notified the Kansas State Medical
Board  and  Dr.   Corder  was  ordered  to  undergo   psychiatric
examination  in  Topeka,  Kansas  immediately or his  license  to
practice medicine would be revoked without further  notice.   Dr.
Corder  did  attend  one evaluation and was ordered to  attend  a
second  one.   He  refused  at this point citing that  it  was  a
violation  of  his privacy.   Shortly after that his  license  to
practice  medicine was revoked.   I asked him if he had  had  any
complaints of malpractice and he told me no.   In response to all
of  the  publicity that Dr.  Corder had  been  receiving,  People
Magazine  contacted him about doing a story on his contact.   Dr.
Corder  agreed,  however  shortly  after  that,  People  Magazine
withdrew citing that they had been contacted by government agents
and  told  to "shelve the story."  At the time of  this  writing,
this  has not been verified,  but we will check  this  out.   Dr.
Corder   sounded  very  sincere,   however  the  nature  of   the
revelations  are  very  apocalyptic and remind  one  of  Biblical
prophecy.    A full story on this case will be provided following
the investigation by ParaNet.

     What  follows  are a list of predictions that were  sent  to
ParaNet concerning the future according to 'Peter.'  Please  note
the  UFO  and UFO related predictions that are made and how  they
relate  to  the environmental and  economic  predictions.  Before
reading  this  material,  it is suggested  that  you  familiarize
yourself  with the article mentioned above so that you may get  a
better background about Dr.  Corder.   ParaNet is also conducting
an investigation into the nature and content of the material.  At
this   time,   we  are  rating  this  as  highly  unreliable  and
unsubstantiated and wish our readers to understand that until the
investigation  is complete,  this material must be viewed with  a
high level of skepticism and caution.   Again, the nature of this
material  is highly controversial and ParaNet does not  make  any
warranties  about  it's truth.   We will continue to update  this
material as it becomes available.  Your comments are welcomed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

           Current Prophecies:  written on June 11, 89

                              1989

1.   Oklahoma earthquake (4.0 to 6.0) soon,  probably before Aug.
89.
2.   New  leader of Iran,  new [Iattola,  ibid.],  is worse  than
first.  Small war breaks out in Persian Gulf, USA is involved.
3.   Probable attempt on President's life in August. 89, if he is
in the southeastern USA during that month.
4.   Huge earthquake located on Kansas/Missouri stateline now  to
late Aug. 89.
5.   Ivan  comes to USA in 89 and easing into power in Russia  in
late  89.   Ivan  is the False  Prophet.    [ed.  note:   We  are
attempting to find out who 'Ivan' is.]
6.  Dormant volcano erupts in Hawaii in 89.
7.  Hurricane in Gulf of Mexico in 89, UNPARALLELED!
8.   Events  to  bring the Bush Administration down in  late  89.
Possible nuclear warhead?  Nicaragua involvement?
9.  Limited nuclear exchange between now and March, 1991.
10.   Government in trouble with evil ET's.  Comes to us for help
in 89.

                          89 and/or 90

11.  Giant earthquake in China.  Late 89 or early 90.
12.  New oil reserves in US in 89 and 90.
12a.   Space shuttle of USA is intercepted and retained by UFO in
89  or 90.   Released after several hours.   Causes  panic.   All
defense  locations  shut down during  interception.   Same  thing
happens with Russia later the same year.

                              1990

13.   Bob Dole,  of Russell,  Ks., becomes the next, greatest and
last  president  of the United States.   Temporary "white  house"
set up in Russell.  Russell bombed and Dole escapes.
14.  Governments acknowledge UFOs in late 89 or early 90.
15.  Open contact with governments by Amorcans, (The Good ET's or
Angels).
16.  Earthquake in California--unbelievable!
17.   Contact  with  government by Creasians,  the evil  ET's  or
Angels, is revealed.
18.  Stock market crash, again.
19.   New  virus  killer reaches USA.   Hideous sores  with  most
people susceptible.
20.  Cures for arthritis, cancer, M.S. very probable.
20a.    Nuclear  plants  in  Russia  and  USA  experience  nearly
simultaneous explosions.
21.   More fires, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and devastating
weather patterns [excalate, ibid.] by two witnesses for God.
22.  Ozone becomes worse and by 91 temp. rise of 10 to 30 degrees
around the world.
23.  Russia closing seaports and war begins.

                           1990 to 91

24.   Pollution in streams and rivers and finally oceans,  so bad
that sea life explodes, turning water to blood.
25.   Food  shortages and radiation sickness in USA.   Result  of
drought and limited nuclear strike between Nicaragua and USA.
26.  True Anti-Christ arising.
27.   Rioting  and  panic,  caused by  stock  markets,  droughts,
unemployment, food shortages, and UFOs.
28.  Land masses, (small islands), simply disappearing.  90-93.

                              1991

29.   People killing and burning those with new virus.  At first,
quarantined, then destroyed.
30.  Easing out of fossil fuel.
31.  Floods begin from melting icebergs, into 1992, from increase
in temperatures around the world.

                              1992

32.   New economy and temporary prosperity  set up by Anti-Christ
when he takes power.
33.   Creasians,  the  Darkside Et's or evil  angels,  activating
subconscious  programming  of  subjects,   causing  insanity  and
instantaneous combustion.
34.   S.D.I.  deployed  in  defense of world  against  UFOs,  but
ineffective even with countries working together.

Note:   These  prophecies  were received by Donna  between  about
March, 87, to February, 88.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

END

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 07:41:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 48
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15707 alt.paranormal:3209 alt.alien.visitors:2216 talk.religion.newage:7004

Hi all,

I want to attempt to clear up a few things. First I want to say this is a lot
of fun, I am getting a lot of laughs, making some new friends and really
enjoying sharing the Pleiadian transcripts with so many ( over 110 of you net
folks have received the transcripts).

I only get to be with Barbra and the Pleiadians once a year when they visit my
area, and I haven t asked them anything yet. Those tricky Pleiadians keep
telepathically reading my mind and answer my questions before I can verbally
ask them.  The rest of my contact with them is by listening to their cassette
lectures.  Another thing is that the Pleiadians are spiritual, metaphysical
teachers and I consider what they teach to be among the highest quality of
information I have encountered.  I consider my spiritual growth and
development to be my highest priority,  purpose.  I personally would not want
the Pleiadians to waste their or my time talking about earths limited
scientific concepts. Since spirit is not provable and cannot be seen or
measured and since many of you think this is your only lifetime it is a waste
of your time to get involved in these discussions.  Let s face it you are not
going to convince me that spirit does not exist and I am not going to convince
you that it does, so why don't you just put showen and pleiadians in your kill
file and let the rest of us have a discussion.

Now maybe I made a mistake bringing in another channels explanations as to why
she could not channel technical stuff, ie. the other channel, btw her name is
Carole. Now somewhere on a floppy I have transcribed what Einstein said
through Carole about why he couldn t bring through technical information
because Carole did not have a technical vocabulary. I could dig it out.  But I
don t think that is really necessary because there is an excellent example of
someone who has channeled real hardware.

Nikola Tesla had over 700 patents.  He is the man responsible for Alternating
Current and radio being on this planet. He freely admitted he was getting
assistance from higher, extraterrestrial intelligence. Now Tesla did go to
college and studied engineering. In fact when he was in school he presented
his theory of alternating current and the professor spent the whole class
period putting Tesla and the theory down. Now lucky for us that Tesla was not
a Skeptic and more interested in what his peers thought than truth, or we
would be using Edisions DC power with a generating plant every few blocks.  So
maybe Tesla only channeled electrical and mechnical devices and not any math,
I doubt it.  The point is that maybe those of you who have a solid science
background, have it as a foundation to receive and implement new technologies
from higher intelligence.  All I am saying is that there is higher
intelligence out there and maybe you can receive or are receiving it. If only
you would stop screaming and believing - if it can t be seen it does not exist.
Listen!

Don Showen
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 07:43:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 37
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15708 alt.paranormal:3210 alt.alien.visitors:2217 talk.religion.newage:7005

Barry Merriman confesses

>Personally, if I went into trance states and channeled "alter intelligences",
>I'd be seriously worried that I was insane, or diseased, and the first thing I
>would do is ask for some simple verification. If none is forthcoming, I'd
>submit myself for pschological/medical tests immediately, to look for presence
>of brain tumors or other disorders.

>Really Don, its highly irresponsible for you to encourage the channeller to
>continue, when this could be the manifestation of some severe mental or
>physical disease that could be treated if caught early enough. It is well
>known that various disorders manifest themselves as hearing voices, having
>vivid hallucinations, etc, all which could be mistaken as some form of
>"contact" with another intelligence, except for the fact that these contacts
>contain no factual information unknown to the reciever.

Barry I really want to express my thanks and gratitude for your confession.
You do the churches, govt., education system and AMA proud!  You are
responding precisely the way they programed you.  Beautiful!!!!  You see
divine inspiration has always been a problem.  The churches had to stop divine
inspiration because if one listens to their inner voice they will KNOW their
connection to All That Is and will not be available to follow dogma.
Consequently millions were burned at the stake for listening to their inner
voice (divine inspiration).  Well the govts came along and cut a deal with the
church.  Basically it was to use education as a way to get individuals afraid
of and/or unconscious of divine inspiration,  by getting them to believe if
they couldn t see it it didn t exist.  So they would be educated to go to a
doctor if they noticed a inner voice.  Now how did doctors get in on the deal?
Well if a person is divinly inspired they don t get sick,  so guess who would
be out of business, non other but the AMA.  So I am sure the churches, govt.,
schools, and the AMA are proud of you, you are a shining example of their work.
BTW did you take a pay off to write that?   I wonder how many times you have
been burned at the stake?  Would you be interested in doing some past life
work with me and find out?


Don Showen
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: Houston Chronicle article on Betty Cash and Vickie Landrum
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Sep 91 19:33:20 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 273
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2218 alt.conspiracy:7726 sci.skeptic:15711




----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your perusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I was browsing the FIDO UFO echo, which is incidentally the _largest_
backboned message area in the US on UFO's...I came across this message.

______________________________________________________________________



Message #7528 - UFO
   Date : 29-Sep-91 11:33
   From : Michael Johnson
     To : All
Subject : Huffman,, Texas UFO tale


         UFINET_NEWS September 27,1991
        ==============================

         Taken from an article in the Houston
         Chronicle dated Sept.15,1991.

         Transcribed by Michael Johnson 80:101/10
         _______________________________________________

         From: The Houston Chronicle
         Date: 09/15/1991
         Section: Metropolitan (C)
         Page:1c,7c
         Author: Cindy Horswell (Chronicle Staff)
         Photo's accompany the article
         Title: Twice burned, not shy
         Byline: Stung by radiation,ridicule,trio stick
                 to UFO story
         Day: Sunday
         Edition: morning
          ________________________________________________
          =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
          ------------Article__STARTS_HERE----------------
          ________________________________________________

                      Twice burned,not shy
      Stung by radiation,ridicule,trio stick to UFO story

                       By Cindy Horswell
                                Houston Chronicle


         DAYTON-- More than a decade after going public with
their strange injuries an an even stranger tale of a UFO
encounter, Betty Cash and Vickie Landrum are sticking by
their story.
    Federal officials have pooh-poohed their claims and a
judge dismissed
their lawsuit against the US government for lack of
evidence. In addition, the two women and Landrum's grandson,
who was with them that night in 1980, say they have suffered
public ridicule.
    Still they aren't backing down. In fact, they hope to
revive their case.
    Whether it was piloted by little green men or by humans
at the controls of a secret military project,Cash and
Landrum insist they saw an Unidentified Flying Object that
night---- and that they have the injuries to prove it.
    Their skin is so sensitive now it only tolerates cold
showers, they say, and they must hide like hermits from the
sun to avoid blistering. Medical bills are mounting, and so
are their worries.
    Cash, a cafe owner, and Landrum, a waitress, blame these
and other strange maladies on the intense heat that they say
came from the bizarre diamond-shaped craft.
    The encounter, on Dec. 29,1980, occurred on an isolated
road in the piney woods northeast of Houston in Liberty
County, the two women say. Since then they have lived mainly
on Social Security, saying they are too ill to hold jobs.
   But their story has spread internationally, including
Omni magazine and several TV programs,and the mystery still
arouses curiosity.
        Their lawsuit alleged they were injured by an
experimental military craft that spewed radiation, or by a
UFO under surveillance by military helicopters. Cash and
Landrum have been besieged with telephone calls-- including
some from anonamous tipsters telling of a top secret
project, WASP-2, allegedly discontinued after radiation
accidents.
    Their attorney, Clay Ford of Gulf Breeze, Fla., wants to
reopen the case by showing government officials lied about
record keeping procedures during pretrial proceedings.
    Meanwhile he is negotiating the sale of his client's
movie rights.
    It all started when the two women and  Landrum's
grandson, Colby, then 7, drove to New Caney in search of a
bingo game. The bingo halls had closed for the Christmas
holidays, however, so they had dinner in that east
Montgomery County town and headed home.
    The women say Colby noticed a bright light in the
distance as they traveled down FM 1485 about 9 p.m..
Quickly, they say, a large object emitting the light swooped
over the tree tops and hovered over a spot just ahead.
    "I screamed for Betty to stop", said Landrum. "I do
believe that if we would have continued we would have burned
up".
    Red-orange flames belched downward as the object
struggled to rise, then sputtered and plunged back toward
the road, she said. The flames roared like a blowtorch, she
said, and the object also made a shrill beeping noise.
    "It was a dull gray,metallic color and about the size of
a water tower. It looked as if it would set the woods on
fire," recalled Cash, who said she stood outside and watched
for 10 minutes.
    Landrum said she and Colby also left the car but quickly
returned, and the boy cowered on the floor.
    Finally, the UFO gave one last blast and flew out of
sight with at least 23 helicopters in pursuit, the two women
said.
    "It's been a nightmare that I wish I could forget," said
Cash, now 62 and living in Alabama near her family.
    Her physician, Dr. Bryan McClelland of Birmingham,says
she has a "textbook case" of radiation poisoning. He
compares it to being three to five miles from the epicenter
of Hiroshima. McClelland said a 1981 biopsy found radiation
dermatitis.
   "The dry, thin skin on her hand resembles that of a
90-year-old lady, with red and purple streaks," he said.
    Landrum's doctor declined comment on her ailments.
    Houston doctors who first examined the trio say they
appeared burned, had puffy, swollen eyes and their hair came
out in clumps. Though they couldn't settle on a cause, they
did not rule out radiation.
    "The Cash-Landrum case could very well be the most
important UFO incident to surface in the last 20 years,
since there was something to examine afterwards," said John
Schuessler, a McDonnell-Douglas space shuttle engineer and
deputy director of the Mutual UFO Network.
    MUFON is a nationwide, 2,100-member organization that
investigates and catalogs UFO sightings and incidents.
    Cash and Landrum say their health began deteriorating
the night of the incident, with the severity depending on
the amount of exposure of the intense heat. They say all
three suffered problems, including red, blistering skin;
nausea; diarrhea; headaches; and swollen, watery eyes.
    Later, they said, they experienced hair loss, open sores
that were slow to heal, depressed immune systems and failing
eyesight.
   "I couldn't take care of myself for two years," said
Cash, who claims the longest exposure to the intense light.
"I was either bedridden or in the hospital (including for
three weeks just after the sighting)."
    Besides physical injuries, the trio suffered emotionally.
    Landrum, who still lives in Dayton with her grandson,
said people stared at her and gave her a wide berth, calling
her "the UFO lady".
    Colby, now 17 who had the mildest exposure and symptoms,
was teased until he sank into a severe depression, Landrum
said. She did not want the youth interviewed, but his
journal gave some insight to his feelings.
    "I am not made fun of as much as I had been. But I am
sick a lot, and my eyes are still very bad," he wrote
recently. "I still look up when I go outside.I guess it is
just a habit, but I always wonder what is up there. Lots of
nights I lay awake wondering if other kids have gone through
what I have."
    Since the three reported their encounter, others have
said they saw the helicopters or a strange flying object
that night.
    Dayton police Officer L.L.Walker and his wife Marie,
reported seeing a half-dozen helicopters flying in "V"
formation with searchlights. Belle Magee, then a bakery
clerk in the area, reported seeing a bright light " like a
football field but up in the sky" heading north toward New
Caney.
    Also, a former Liberty County sherrifs deputy reported
seeing an identical object almost two years later as he
drove on an isolated road near Cleaveland.
    John Mark McDonald- now a Lake Jackson police officer-
described it as diamond shaped, about half the size of a
football field and the color of galvanized steel. The only
difference between his sighting and the 1980 report was that
his had red lights on each corner.

    "Everybody was riding me about reporting it -- thought I
was crazy," McDonald said. "But I just knew it wasn't an
airplane, because I've been working in the U.S. Army
Reserves and know about every fixed wing (craft) there is."
    Today, Landrum and Cash are anxious for some answers.
    Cash still has the 1980 Oldsmobile she drove that night.
She says the intense heat embedded Landrum's handprint in
the padded dashboard.
    Also, she said two unidentified men in military uniforms
once offered to buy the car. Dr. McClelland, who said his
secretary witnessed the offer, suspects somebody wanted to
get rid of the car because "ion (electrically charged atoms)
tracks are visible on the chrome."
    Another quirk was the unexplained repair of a melted
spot in the road where the incident occurred, Schuessler
said.
    "I have photographs of a 15- to 25-foot area where even
the center stripe was wiggly," he said.
    A year later, he said, the spot had been
resurfaced.Schuessler said county officials denied any
knowledge of the repair.
     The reported sighting has attracted numerous other
responses, including some from the fringe. On one nationally
syndicated TV special, two men using disguises and the names
"Falcon" and "Condor" told wild tales of U.S. pilots having
problems while testing a nuclear powered craft that had been
acquired from extraterrestrials.
    Other tips are coming from callers who recently saw the
UFO story aired on the Unsolved Mysteries TV program...
    Still others, claiming to be military people or their
relatives, have called to say they flew helicopters that
night, despite the pentagon's denial.
    At least two callers linked the UFO to a classified
project, WASP-2, which they said was an experimental
nuclear-powered craft abandoned after 1982 when it couldn't
stop irradiating people.
    "The trouble is that most all the people with something
significant to say were anonymous," said Schuessler.
    Paul M. Koloc, a retired U.S. Navy research physicist
from Maryland, confirmed the existance of a research program
called Winged Aircraft Special Projects. However, he
theorizes the object Cash and Landrum reported may have been
ball lightning, caused by a huge lightning bolt and hot
gases.
     Lt. Col. George C. Sarran, an Army congressional liason
who recently was sent to review the case, concluded that
while there was no indication that anyone was trying to
exaggerate the events, he also found that no "Army-related"
helicopters were involved.
    "Sarran told me, 'I know something terrible has happened
to you, but I don't know what it is,' " Cash said.
    Neither do she and Landrum.
-----------------------------------------------------
    ________________________________________________
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    ------------Article__ENDS___HERE----------------
    ________________________________________________

                      Twice burned,not shy
 Stung by radiation,ridicule,trio stick to UFO story
    _______________________________________________
    END OF HUFFMAN, TEXAS UFO STORY TRANSPOSED FROM
       9/15/91 ISSUE OF THE HOUSTON CHRONICLE
====================================================
      This file was issued from RADIO_FREE_HOUSTON
====================================================

-- EOF --

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: GIF: Picture of Fireball UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Sep 91 20:19:14 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 213
Xref: ns-mx alt.binaries.pictures:2015 alt.alien.visitors:2219 sci.skeptic:15712


I dug this up the other day and am posting it to the net. This
particular GIF is a mono type that shows a pic of the Fireball
type UFO and a little description of it. This isn't an *actual*
picture but an illustration.

-----cut here----------------------------------------------------------


begin 664 ufo1.gif
M1TE&.#=A@ )? 8       /___RP     @ )? 0 "_8R/J<OM#Z.<M-J+L]Z\
M^P^&XDB6YHFFZLJV[@O'\DS7]HWG^L[W_@\,C@#$HO&(3"J7S*;S"8U*I]2J
M]5H5:K?<KO= !!O%17+8<#0#U&STV%V&GP-I^=K>IK_U<?Z\[G<7F =8N&?8
MA_AWR-CW]0@9*9FRF-A8B2FHJ'G):?F92=@I"NH9BH<ZF+I)>JHZ"1LK.QNQ
MAG6+FZN[R]OK:QM6MD=+7&S\: NFC+9,UZSY',T\[4P-;2U=K7V]G<W][1V.
M/=Y-#FXN???GUGSL_@Z?DXQ.7VY_?B^>7X_?K^_/[Y_ @.-848N',*%"2OL:
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end

---cut here--------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: GIF: Illlustration of a UFO with "occupant" : -)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Sep 91 20:22:24 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 287
Xref: ns-mx alt.binaries.pictures:2016 alt.alien.visitors:2220 sci.skeptic:15713

Yea..This is yet-another UFO illustration..this one is destined
to become a "Klass"ic :-)

------- cut here -------------------------------------------------


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end

------ cut here ---------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: FILE: Codex.asc - Peruvian AF encounter with Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Sep 91 02:24:52 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 206
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2221 alt.conspiracy:7727 sci.skeptic:15714





----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your perusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

This comes from the MUFONET UFO BBS..

---------------------------------------------------------------------


THE CODEX Vol 1 No. 3 copyright 1991 Aztec Enterprises
P.O. Box 668
Bushkill, Pennsylvania 18324

Any of You Earthlings Wanna Come Out and Play?

By Carl Aztec

I recently came into possession of a United States Government
document that was once classified Top Secret.  This document was
obtained under the under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).
This document describes an encounter between the Peruvian Air
Force and a UFO.

Now, I've seen and read many FOIA documents before, but the
account described in this document is a bit different than the
"typical" UFO encounter, that is, if there is such a thing as a
"typical" encounter!

I have reproduced this particular document which follows:

                    DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
                    JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF
                       MESSAGE CENTER

VZCZCMLT565                               7YUW
MULT
ACTION
18134
     DIA:
DISTR
-    IADB(01) J5(02) J3:NMCC NIDS SECDEF(07) SECDEF: USDP(15)
-    ATSD:AE(01) ASD:PA&E(01) ::DIA(20) NMIC
CMC CC WASHINGTON DC
CSAF WASHINGTON DC
CNO WASHINGTON DC
CSA WASHINGTON DC
CIA WASHINGTON DC
SECSTATE WASHINGTON DC
NSA WASH DC
FILE
(047)

TRANSIT/1542115/1542207/000:52TOR1542204
DE RUESLMA W4888 154115
ZNY CCCCC
R 0220527 JUN 80
FM USDAD LIMA PERU
TO RUEKJCS/DIA WASHDC
INFO RULPALJ/USCINCSO QUARRY HTS PN
RULPAFA/USAFSO HOWARD AFB PN
BT

SUBJ: IR 6 876 0146 80 (U)
THIS IS AN INFO REPORT, NOT FINALLY EVAL INTEL
1. (U) CTRY: PERU (PE)
2. TITLE (U) UFO SIGHTED IN PERU (U)
3. (U) DATE OF INFO: 800510
4. (U)  ORIG: USDAO AIR LIME PERU
5. (U) REQ REFS: Z-D13-PE030
6. (U) SOURCE: 6 876 0138. OFFICER IN THE PERUVIAN AIR FORCE
WHO OBSERVED THE EVENT AND IS IN A POSITION TO BE PARTY
TO CONVERSATION CONCERNING THE EVENT. SOURCE HAS REPORTED
RELIABLY IN THE PAST.

7.SUMMARY: SOURCE REPORTED THAT A UFO WAS SPOTTED ON TWO
DIFFERENT OCCASIONS NEAR PERUVIAN AIR FORCE (FAP) BASE IN
SOUTHERN PERU. THE FAP TRIED TO INTERCEPT AND DESTROY THE

UFO, BUT WITHOUT SUCCESS.

PAGE 1                                                   00101111


                    DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
                    JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF
                       MESSAGE CENTER

PAGE 2
18134

8A. DETAILS: SOURCE TOLD RO ABOUT THE SPOTTING OF AN
UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECT IN THE VICINITY OF MARIANO MELGAR AIR
BASE, LA JOYA, PERU (16805S, 0715306W).  SOURCE STATED THAT THE
VEHICLE WAS SPOTTED ON TWO DIFFERENT OCCASIONS.  THE FIRST WAS
DURING THE MORNING HOURS OF 9 MAY 80, AND THE SECOND DURING THE
EARLY EVENING HOURS OF 10 MAY 80.            SOURCE STATED THAT
ON 9 MAY, WHILE A GROUP OF FAP OFFICERS WERE IN FORMATION AT
MARIANO MALGAR, THEY SPOTTED A UFO THAT WAS ROUND IN SHAPE,
HOVERING NEAR THE AIRFIELD. THE AIR COMMANDER SCRAMBLED AN SU-22
AIRCRAFT TO MAKE AN INTERCEPT. THE PILOT, ACCORDING TO A THIRD
PARTY, INTERCEPTED THE VEHICLE AND FIRED UPON IT AT VERY CLOSE
RANGE WITHOUT CAUSING ANY APPARENT DAMAGE. THE PILOT TRIED TO
MAKE A SECOND PASS ON THE VEHICLE, BUT THE UFO OUT-RAN THE SU-22.

      THE SECOND SIGHTING WAS DURING HOURS OF DARKNESS. THE
VEHICLE WAS LIGHTED. AGAIN AN SU-22 WAS SCRAMBLED, BUT THE
VEHICLE OUT-RAN THE AIRCRAFT.

8B.ORIG CMTS: RO HAS HEARD DISCUSSION ABOUT THE SIGHTING FROM
OTHER SOURCES. APPARENTLY SOME VEHICLE WAS SPOTTED, BUT ITS
ORIGIN REMAINS UNKNOWN.

9. (U) PROJ NO: N/A
10. (U) COLL MGMT CODES: AB
11. (U) SPEC INST: NONE. DIRC: NO.
12. (U) PREP BY: NORMAN H. RUNGE, COL, AIRA
13. (U) APP BY: VAUGHN E. WILSON, CAPT, DATT, ALUSNA
14. (U) REQ EVAL: NO. REL TO: NONE
15. (U) ENCL: N/A
16. (U) DIST BY ORIG: N/A

BT
W4888
ANNOTES
JAL 117

PAGE 2
                                                         00101111
NNNN
0222087
[end]


OK, now that you've read it, let us look at a few of the
interesting "behavior patterns" of this UFO. This document says:

THE PILOT, ACCORDING TO A THIRD PARTY, INTERCEPTED THE VEHICLE
AND FIRED UPON IT AT VERY CLOSE RANGE WITHOUT CAUSING ANY
APPARENT DAMAGE. THE PILOT TRIED TO MAKE A SECOND PASS ON THE
VEHICLE, BUT THE UFO OUT-RAN THE SU-22.

This UFO didn't want to give the SU-22 pilot another opportunity
to fire upon it. Why? Could it be that the UFO pilot(?) thought
his ship could be damaged or destroyed if hit? If this is true,
why was the SU-22 allowed to come so close initially? Surely the
UFO would be aware of our technology and capabilities and our
attitudes towards UFOs flying into restricted airspace! Or do we
assume too much about their knowledge of us?

And as if this isn't strange enough:

THE SECOND SIGHTING WAS DURING HOURS OF DARKNESS. THE VEHICLE
WAS LIGHTED. AGAIN AN SU-22 WAS SCRAMBLED, BUT THE VEHICLE
OUT-RAN THE AIRCRAFT.

This UFO comes back. But this time it knows a little more of our
capabilities and our intentions. That is, we're gonna shoot it
down!  So the UFO, in it's wisdom, TURNS ON IT'S LIGHTS!

Why?

I think it's obvious: It turned on it's lights because it wanted
to be seen!

Remember, the first time it was sighted was not by any high
-tech radar that you'd expect to be operating in or around an
air base but by a group of officers flying in formation.

SOURCE STATED THAT ON 9 MAY, WHILE A GROUP OF FAP OFFICERS WERE
IN FORMATION AT MARIANO MALGAR, THEY SPOTTED A UFO THAT WAS
ROUND IN SHAPE, HOVERING NEAR THE AIRFIELD.

So the owners of this UFO are smart enough to build a craft that
is radar invisible, can out run an SU-22, and they are smart
enough to not want to be shot at - so isn't it a bit odd that
they are intentionally leaving their running lights on!

I think we're being played with, tested, poked and prodded just
to see what we can do and are capable of doing. We are their
guinea pigs.

--- EOF ---

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: Pennsylvania UFO Sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Sep 91 02:28:45 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 644
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2222 alt.conspiracy:7728 sci.skeptic:15715




----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your perusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

These are some MUFON sightings reports that I concatenated together
into a single report.

---------------------------------------------------------------------




                              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK
                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

January 17, 1989
Tribune-Democrat
Johnstown, Pennsylvania

CAMBRIA WAS UFO HOTBED

By James W. Siehl
The Tribune-Democrat


     Cambria  County had an extremely high number of  unexplained
UFO  incidents in 1988,  according to Stan Gordon of  Greensburg,
director  of  the  Pennsylvania Association for  the  Unexplained
(PASU).
     In  his annual report,  Mr.  Gordon said  information  about
unusual  incidents was received from people in 25 other counties,
as well as from Ohio, West Virginia, Maryland and New Jersey.
     The sightings were reported by people of all walks of  life,
among them police officers and pilots, according to Mr. Gordon.
     "In  recent years,  the typical saucer shaped UFO is  rarely
reported.  Many witnesses claim to have encountered large, mostly
silent,  metallic,  elongated  cigar-shaped objects,  as well  as
large  triangular  and rectangular shaped  devices,"  Mr.  Gordon
said.
     He  said  there  is  no explanation for 44  percent  of  the
unprecedented 350 UFO cases and other strange incidents the state
experienced  in 1988,  including numerous reports  of  encounters
with the legendary Bigfoot and observations of black panthers and
mountain lions.
     There  also  were  reports  of  giant  footprints,   unusual
geological  finds,  beams  of light from the sky coming  from  no
apparent source, fireballs and strange animal killings.
     Mr.  Gordon  said the wave of UFO sightings began in  August
1987 and continues to date.
     Some   cases  involve  local  power  failures  and  reported
landings  or near landings of objects--some with physical  traces
left behind.
     "PASU  also  investigated  a  number  of  claims  by   state
residents who felt that they had been temporarily abducted aboard
a UFO, physically examined and then released," Mr. Gordon said.
     Many  of  the sightings were concentrated in specific  areas
for a period of time, according to Mr. Gordon.
     Fifty unusual incidents were reported in Cambria County last
year, Mr. Gordon said, compared with four in 1987.  Most reported
sightings of UFOs,  but five reported sightings of Bigfoot in the
South Fork/New Germany area during August, he said.
     Of  those,  40 cases including the five  Bigfoot  sightings,
remain a mystery, Mr. Gordon said.
     Incidents  reported in 1988 in other area counties totaled 1
in  Blair;  7,  Somerset;  3,  Bedford;  15,  Indiana;  and  137,
Westmoreland,  which experienced a number of sightings last  year
of Bigfoot along Chestnut Mountain Ridge in the Ligonier, Latrobe
and Denny areas.
     Mr.  Gordon  said  media  coverage of  his  organization  in
Cambria  and  Westmoreland counties may account for some  of  the
calls  as  people  are made aware of the service.   He  said  the
organization receives practically no crank calls.
     Below are some 1988 cases highlights:

     February--A 60 foot long object with several rows of lights,
described by some as looking like a small cruise ship in the sky,
was  seen by numerous independent observers between 7:45 and 8:30
p.m.  in a 10 mile area bordering Cambria and Somerset  counties.
The  object  passed over cars and trees--at times between 50  and
100  feet  above the ground.   It emitted only a  slight  humming
sound  and at times projected multiple beams of light toward  the
ground.
     July--Numerous UFO sightings were reported in Indiana County
during the month near the electric generating station near  Homer
City.   For  several  weeks,  residents reported slowly  dropping
fireballs and strange sounds.   On the night of July 17,  several
witnesses  observed  two  objects with read  and  green  flashing
lights make two close passes near the facility.   Later,  one  of
the objects made two passes about 200 feet above the ground.   It
was  described as circular and about the size of a large car with
four lighted, leg like projections on the bottom.
     Sept. 2--Ebensburg R.D. On a Sunday afternoon, a man sitting
by  a  pond  at  his  rural residence  was  startled  to  see  an
orange/red spherical object come out of the sky from the north.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


# 890104 :  Near Harrisburg, PA. Event date, December 4, 1988, 5:25 a.m.

     A state corrections officer (name withheld) was driving his car to his
prison work site when he was blinded by a light, swerving to a halt on the
road.  Departing the car, he tried to study the object but could not make out
a shape due to its brilliance.  A strong wind emanated from either the object
or general weather conditions.  About 75 feet in diameter, the object was
perhaps ovular, polished silver, and approximately 150 feet overhead.  A
medium tone humming sound was distinct.  After an undetermined number of
minutes, the vehicle departed, laterally at first, then vertically.  The
witness then realized an auto a short distance ahead.  The motorist, an older
well-dressed man, exhibited tears and appeared terrified.  The man remarked
that he had been returning from work, which the officer found odd.  He then
felt the car hood, which was cold.

     Immediately following the incident, the officer experienced a severe
"sunburn", vision and hearing difficulties, headache and dizziness,
musculature aches and a skin rash.  His auto was coated with a thin coating
of material later analyzed by a laboratory as having high concentrations of
particular elements.

     (Analysis:   A classic CE-2, faulted only by the fact that the officer,
in the excitement of the moment, failed to obtain the second motorist's name
or license number before he drove away.  Another prison officer verified
hearing a humming sound from his home within minutes of the roadside
encounter and in the direction which the object departed.  Highly
significant).


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOG # 890719 - Event 05/17/89, in a suburb of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Investigator Evelyn Schurman.  Two women were driving on a residential street
when they noticed an oval shape with beacon-sized red lights along the side,
hovering in the near distance.  The object retreated and returned several
times over two minutes, then accelerated vertically.  They filed a police
report immediately.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOG # 891002 - Event 09/03/89, near Ebenburg, Pennsylvania, investigator Paul
Kessler.  A high school boy confronted an arrowhead-shaped object at close
range while driving.  At first moving very slowly at utility line height, it
accelerated while simultaneously rotating counter-clockwise until lost from
view.  The vehicle was described as larger than an auto with an undercarriage
surface of gray-white transected by a broad black stripe.  A set of red lights
were at the lead apex, a set of whitish-green lights at one rear apex, and a
set of bluish lights at the other.  The youth's auto did not malfunction during
the 10-15 second encounter.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOG # 891004 - Event 08/26/89, near Mineral Point, Pennsylvania, investigator
Paul Kessler.  At 5 PM, four teenage boys resting from a game of touch football
spotted a shiny object in the sky.  It proceeded closer at moderate speed, then
twice reversed direction, halting momentarily each time.  Fifteen minutes into
the sighting, one of the boys ran home to beckon his parents outside.  They
were joined by several adult neighbors and watched for half an hour until the
object left.  It was described as a metalic sphere, at times displaying an
orange-like coloration and appearing to rotate about a vertical axis.  At it's
closest point, the object had an apparent size of a quarter held at arm's
length.  Actual size was estimated as larger than the jetliner which at one
point passed below the anomaly.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Report #: 204
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 01-11-1987
  Subject: HARRISBURG, PA

CASE TYPE:  CE I
     DATE:  1ST WEEK OCTOBER, 1985
     TIME:  0515 HOURS
     CFN#:  0326
 DURATION:  UNKNOWN
WITNESSES:  TWO
   SOURCE:  UFO INFORMATION SERVICE
--------------------------------------

Witness got up around 4:15 - 5:15 a.m.  to go to restroom and saw an object
over her home that covered five other homes as well.  The object was huge,
pure white and had no lights.  The object was the shape of a saucer and
rotating.  Even though the object was bright (brighter than any object she
had ever seen) it did not hurt her eyes to look at it.  She had no fear and
wanted to run out of her home and stand underneath the object but felt
paralyzed.  The object did return and her 12 year old son was able to see it.
Since the incident she has had visions which she did not experience prior to
the sighting of the object.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


 Report #: 206
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 01-12-1987
  Subject: WASHINGTON, PA

CASE TYPE:   CE I
     DATE:   6 JANUARY 1987
     TIME:   20:10 HOURS
     CFN#:   0328
 DURATION:   12:MINUTES
WITNESSES:   TWO
   SOURCE:   PASU - STAN GORDON, DIR.
--------------------------------------------

Two witnesses reported observing a bright triangular object in the night sky.

They said the object was gold in color, with three bright red lights non-
blinking, one in each carner.

The witnesses stated, that the object hovered for approximately ten minutes
before moving off to the north.

( PASU ) is still working on this case and more information will be posted
soon. For more info call 412-838-7768.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


 Report #: 211
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 01-24-1987
  Subject: ARNOLD CITY, PA

CASE TYPE:   LRS
     DATE:   21 JANUARY 1987
     TIME:   22:00 HOURS
     CFN#:   0333
 DURATION:   3:MINUTES
WITNESSES:   UNKNOWN
   SOURCE:   PASU - STAN GORDON 412-838-7768
---------------------------------------------
UFO Sighting report from PASU.
AREA of report Arnold City, Fayette County,PA

Witnesses reported observing a flying object.  They described the object as
very bright and said that the object was shaped like an oval.

the witnesses said that the object had a red and blue glow to it. They also
stated that the UFO or object had a tapered down tail another words a
structure towards the back of the object.  This case is being investigated by
PASU.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


 Report #: 215
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 02-01-1987
  Subject: SEWICKLEY HEIGHTS, PA

CASE TYPE:  CE I
     DATE:  21 JANUARY 1987
     TIME:  2200 HOURS
     CFN#:  0337
 DURATION:  UNKNOWN
WITNESSES:  ONE
   SOURCE:  PASU - DIR. STAN GORDON
---------------------------------------

Ufo sighting reported 1-21-87.  Object seen at 10 p.m. in Sewickley Heights,
PA. in Allegheny Co.  Object was seen about 50 feet above ground hovering
near car.  It was about four car lengths long, and wide as a single lane road.
It was cigar shaped, with multiple lights and it made no sound.  As it
ascended into the sky it moved over four homes and then turned on a brilliant
spotlight.  Witness reports that she felt some mental communication with the
object.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Report #: 220
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 04-02-1987
  Subject: NEW STANTON, PA

CASE TYPE:   CE I
     DATE:   16 MARCH 1987
     TIME:   17:36 HOURS
     CFN#:   0342
 DURATION:   UNKNOWN
WITNESSES:   MANY
   SOURCE:   PASU
------------------------------------------
Witnesses reported observing two formations of Unidentified Flying Objects.

Witnesses said at 7:36 P.M. Two formations of unidentified lighted objects
were seen.

Witnesses stated that they first sighted the unidentified objects at a high
altitude then they said the objects started dropping to approximately 500
feet.  No other information is known at this time.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


 Report #: 221
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 04-12-1987
  Subject: LOYALHANNA, PA

CASE TYPE:   LRS
     DATE:   16 MARCH 1987
     TIME:   23:15 HOURS
     CFN#:   0343
 DURATION:   UNKNOWN
WITNESSES:   ONE
   SOURCE:   PASU
--------------------------------------------
Witness reported observing a UFO Unidentified Flying Object through window.

The witness stated that they saw a red flourescent elongated object.  The
witness said the object appeared to be approximately two feet in size or
diameter.

The witness stated that the object was seen moving very slow outside the
window of a second floor. P.A.S.U. are now invesigating this case. New
information on this case will be posted when it come in.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


 Report #: 222
     From: UFO INFO SERVICE
Date Sent: 04-12-1987
  Subject: LATROBE, PA

CASE TYPE:   LRS
     DATE:   20 MARCH 1987
     TIME:   18:30 HOURS
     CFN#:   0344
 DURATION:   5:MINUTES
WITNESSES:   FOUR
   SOURCE:   PASU
--------------------------------------------
Four witnesses reported observing a UFO Unidentified Flying Object.

Three witnesses including a pilot stated that they observed a solid black
cigar shaped object.

The witnesses said that the object hovered at a high altitude.  They stated
also that the object hovered in the same area for over five minutes.

The total time of observation was five minutes.  Also there were reports of
strange underground sounds.  This report is being invesigated by P.A.S.U. and
new information on this case will be posted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 05-26-91  21:53
From: Rev. Philosopher-King

The Kecksburg UFO crash story was investigated by Robert Youbng in the
Spring 1991 issue of the Skeptical Inquirer. Even the people portrayed in
the "Unsolved Mysteries' program say the incident was a hoax, and no fewer
than 50 local residents sent a petition to the program's producers to urge
them not to air a false story. Jerome Miller, who in the show was
portrayed as the owner of the home the militarty used as a command post,
denies that their home was ever used for such a purpose.

The story, essentially, is this; At 4:40 p.m. est, a fireball was seein
in several states, and mention of it made it into several newspapers. It
was also reported to have crashed in six widely separated locations-- one
pilot claimed it went into Lake Erie, another report said it landed in
Midland, Pennsylvania, and in Cleveland, Ohio, a woman claimed that a
meteor landed in a nearby field. (Firemen did find several small brush
fires, though.)
In kecksburg, residents recall hearing about several roughly concurrent
incidents, including dynamiting at a nearby quarry, a local plane crash,
and sighting of this fireball. Captain Joseph Dussia of the Penn State
Police Troop A, announced that after an all-night search, 'absolutely
nothing had been found.'

Now, enter Stan Gordon of the Pennsylvania Association for Study of the
Unexplained, a long-time UFO buff. He's also the PA director of MUFON.
Gordon put out an appeal to people who recalled the Keckburg fireball,
and couple that with local evangelist Robert D. Barry's locally-televised
UFO rantings, it's not surprising that a story about a UFO crash--
complete with 'recovered bodies,' a fact that seems to have originated
with one of Barry's sermons-- would eventually be cobbled up.

In other words; the Kecksburg incident was nothing.

Source: "Old-Solved Mysteries': The Kecksburg Incident" by Robert Young.
Skeptical Inquirer Spring 1991.

P.S. How many people out there understand how this story'll keep getting
repeated despite the fact that people ostensibly involved in the situation
deny it ever happened? (P.S. I can also imagine some UFO fans, desperately
wanting to believe the story, invoking the 'Government Coverup and
Misinformation' ploy to dismiss these peoples' testimony."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


                   MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO Network
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                         Latrobe Bulletin
                                         Latrobe, Pa
                                         May 6, 1989


                 KECKSBURG CRASH CONTROVERSIAL

                                         By Kim Opatka
                                         Bulletin Staff Writer

     This final article in a six-part series on unidentified flying
objects (UFOS) examines one of the most talked about and controversial
incidents in the area, what has been termed a meteorite by some and an
alien craft by others, which crashed in Kecksburg December 9, 1965.

     The object was first seen streaking across the sky, with
thousands from Michigan to New York witnessing a brilliant ball of
fire which left a smoke trail, visible for about 20 minutes after it
passed.

     Many, including pilots who observed it, thought it was an
aircraft which was on fire.  Reports of debris from the object were
made in many states, and an Ohio fire department was called to
extinguish 10 small fires in an area where witnesses said they saw
flaming fragments falling from the sky.

     Shock waves were reported by pilots, and a seismograph near
Detroit recorded a shock, wrote investigator Stan Gordon, of
Pennsylvania Association for the Study of the Unexplained (PASU) in a
recent journal article.  The crash has been a pet project of the
Greensburg man "since the night it happened," he said, noting he is
still trying to obtain information on the incident.

     Although the military eventually labeled the object a meteor, as
did the Associated Press account published in The Bulletin the day
after the crash, Gordon says recent evidence, including the discovery
of a man who saw the object, supports the idea that the object was a
true UFO.

     "I was a teen-ager then," said John (not his real name).  "It was
in the early part of December and there was a little snow and a little
rain, and mud."

     He was called to the scene after the 4:44 p.m. crash as a fireman
from the Latrobe area, to search for the crashed object.

     "I had seen a fiery object in the sky.  I can't say exactly which
direction but it was coming from the north.  It was not too much
longer and the fire whistle went off," he said.  "I answered the call
and was told they needed a search team because at the time they
believed it was a downed aircraft.  And I thought, 'My God, this is
what I have just seen'."

     When firemen arrived at the Kecksburg Fire Hall, maps were
reviewed and groups were given sections to search.

     "It was getting semi-dusk and we had flashlights.  We were taken
in the back of a truck and dropped off and told to go 'this way' which
we did.  I was not on the initial contact team.  Another team found
the object.

     "It was definitely, unequivocally, positively, absolutely no
aircraft, plane, helicopter or rocket, at least not to my knowledge.
It was in an area that was part field and part woods and we went down
to investigate," he said.

     "We found the object had crashed at a 30 to 40 degree angle, and
had broken off numerous tree branches in its impact path.  My initial
reaction was 'This is no airplane.' I observed no shrapnel, no
breaking up of the fuselage.  It was one solid piece, no doors, no
windows.

     "Preliminary searches found no bodies or casualties.  It was
shaped like an acorn, laying on its side, like the acorn nut is in its
shell when it's on a tree," he explained.  "I've been a machinist for
24 years and I've worked with a tremendous amount of different metals,
and I have never seen any type of metal that looked even close to
that."

     John said the object was not broken, "not even cracked, just
dented a bit.  It did not give off smoke, steam or vapors, at least
none that we could see."

     Reports from neighbors in the area said it had given off a faint
trail of blue smoke, which disappeared after the crash.

     He described the portion visible as between eight and 10 feet
long, six and seven feet across, and said a man of average height
would probably have had little trouble standing up inside it.  The
crater it plowed into the ground was "rectangular in shape."

     John said the state police were there and the area was soon
quarantined.

     "They drove us out.  It was late at night when we finally got
back to the fire hall and it had been completely taken over by the
military.  They were carrying in large pieces of equipment, radios and
such, and they had armed guards posted outside so nobody could get in
or out.  The firemen were thrown out.  We weren't even allowed in to
use the bathroom.

     "The military had control of the whole operation," John recalled.
"After a while we saw a flat bed truck come by with some other
military equipment, a crane or something.

     "It was not too much longer, an hour, an hour and a half, when
the trucks came back and there was a large object on the back of the
flat bed, covered by a tarp, with military escorts front and back.  I
got the feeling that if you had stepped on the road you were dead
meat.  They weren't stopping for anything."

     Although the object was later said to be a meteorite, John
doesn't buy that explanation.

     "It had writing on it, not like your average writing, but more
like ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics.  It had sort of a bumper on it,
like a ribbon about six to 10 inches wide, and it stood out.  It was
elliptical the whole way around and the writing was on this bumper.
It's nothing like I've ever seen, and I'm an avid reader.  I read a
lot of books on Egypt, the Incas, Peruvians, Russians and I've never
to this day come across anything that looked like that."

     John notes that later it was denied that the object was even a
meteorite, and the military "denied they were even in the area.  But I
know there were Air Force and Army personnel involved.  It was like
they just came out of the woodwork."

     Gordon's research has revealed that one of the military groups
involved was most likely to be the 662nd Radar Squadron, based at the
Oakdale Armory, located near Greater Pittsburgh International Airport.

     The squadron was found to be under the control of the Aerospace
Defense Command, and attempts to get information on the Kecksburg
crash, through the Freedom of Information Act, have not provided much
to go on.

     One response said there had been no record of the squadron being
activated on that date, Gordon said, wondering how so much equipment
and personnel could be activated while the monthly report showed no
entry on Dec.  9.

     Through his research, Gordon says he knows the Air Force was
still investigating UFO cases at the public level then, and that it
was apparently the Project Blue Book staff which contacted the 662nd
squadron.  Subsequent reports have led him to theorize that even the
Project Blue Book staff was not made aware of objects which could
"affect national security," and that some intelligence teams
investigated crashes of "foreign space vehicles."

    Another strange occurrence that night, Gordon said, was reports by
some civilians that radiation was released.  He explained that some
children playing in the area had reportedly been told by military
personnel that that was a possibility, and men in decontamination
suits were allegedly seen at the site later the next day.

     Although he has considered the possibility that the object could
have been space debris or a test device, Gordon says documents and
evidence obtained in the last few years lead more in the direction of
it being a "true UFO."

     John concurs.
     "It was definitely not of this planet.  At the time I was a
skeptical teen, but when you see something like that you don't forget
it.  When you get called out like that from the fire department you
think you're going out looking for an aircraft of some sort, not a
UFO.

     "I'll never forget it.  I still want to know what the hell it
was."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

        KECKSBURG, Pa. -- No kidding, there's a UFO resting atop the
Kecksburg Fire Department Building in Westmoreland County.
        Actually, it's a reasonable facsimile of an object alleged to have
cut across the skies and paid a visit in the area 25 years ago. The NBC
television network donated the 300-pound metallic model shaped like a huge
acorn. It was used to tape the network's "Unsolved Mysteries" show this past
summer.
        As legend, myth and embellishment have it, the UFO streaked across
the Kecksburg sky on Dec. 7, 1965, landed and was carted away by the
government.  Many in the Kecksburg area call the UFO story a hoax and
protested the taping of the show.
        Kecksburg firefighters had the UFO mounted atop their fire station
after approving the move last month.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 07-26-91  23:06
From: William Miller
Subj: UFO's - Western PA.

 I left a message a few month's ago but was unable to see if there was a
reply (I work for the government - frequent DC trips).  I have been embarking
on some personal research into some of the strange things that happen here in
Western Pennsylvania.  This area is host to some BIZARRE goings on, some of
which has happened to some of my friends and family members.  I grew up about
4 miles away from the Kecksburg Acorn (Unsolved Mysteries).  I've had some of
the most "straight-up" people I know tell me of UFO encounters.  And although
I have not experienced these things myself, I have seen the after effects,
some of which CAN NOT be hoaxed, or explained away (i.e. animal reactions).
I have seen my brother, in stark terror, run right through Russian Olive
bushes (the type with 2 inch thorns), fall flat on his face on ice, hit the
house and refuse to go out for 2 days.  The thing is, he beat my SISTER who
had a head start; she saw it first!  What I am interested in is anybody who
might have been in the area of Erie on July 29, 1966.  My family lived there
at the time when a UFO was reported.  So was a patch of forest that was burnt
bare with the trees snapped back at the circumference, and a being that was
seen by at least 2 people walk into the water.  This case made Project Blue
Book, and is listed as unsolved.

We went to the site immediately, we lived 1.5 miles away,
and the Air Force was all over that place.

They chased us away, right after my aunt stepped in a plaster cast of a
footprint; boy were they p___ed.  It was a really frightening event, and I
would like to get more details it.  I have a few newspaper clips, but
officially, it is documented like a routine traffic accident.
 Thanks, and I'll keep watching this echo for a reply......

---- EOF ----


Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: Soviet UFO Sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Sep 91 02:33:34 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 916
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2223 alt.conspiracy:7729 sci.skeptic:15716




----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your perusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------


   UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS WATCHED BY HUNDREDS NEAR MOSCOW.
   24/4 TASS 24

   MOSCOW APRIL 15 TASS -- THE NEWSPAPER RABOCHAYA TRIBUNA
PUBLISHED A REPORT TODAY SAYING STRANGE THINGS HAVE BEEN
HAPPENING IN THE AREA OF THE YAROSLAVL HIGHWAY 47 KILOMETERS
OUTSIDE MOSCOW.

   ON SEVERAL NIGHTS SINCE MARCH 12, LARGE LUMINESCENT DISKS AND
SPHERES HAVE BEEN OBSERVED TO APPEAR IN THE SKY ABOVE THE AREA.
THEY ARE SOON REPLACED BY THREE GROUPS OF OBJECTS, SOME RESEMBLE
PINEAPPLES, MEASURING ABOUT SIX METERS IN LENGTH AND FEATURING
TYPICAL PINEAPPLE PATTERNS ALONG THEIR BODIES. OTHERS RESEMBLE
PYRAMIDAL MILK CONTAINERS, STILL OTHERS UPTURNED SOURCES.

   THESE OBJECTS EMIT LIGHT AND WHEN LUMINESCENCE SUBSIDES,
MULTI-COLOURED LIGHTS CONTINUE TO FLICKER AND GLISTEN. THEY CAN
BE SEEN MOVING VERY FAST OR STOPPING AND CHANGING DIRECTION OF
FLIGHT VERY ABRUPTLY. NO SOUND ACCOMPANIES THE MOVEMENTS --
NEITHER BUZZING NOR WHINING. AT TIMES, A LUMINESCENT CLOUD RISES
ABOVE THE ROADSIDE FOREST.

   LOCAL INHABITANTS, ARMED WITH BINOCULARS, ARE REPORTED TO
HAVE SPENT NIGHTS ON TOP OF THIR HOUSES TO WATCH, THE NEWSPAPER
SAYS. SEVERAL HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE HAVE SEEN THE UFOS. ALL HAVE
DESCRIBED THE OBJECTS IN SIMILAR TERMS.

   ITEM ENDS

------------------------------------------------------------------------


   .UFO CURES HYPERTENSION -- SOVIET DOCTORS WONDER.
   27/4 TASS 35

   MOSCOW APRIL 27 TASS - DESPITE ALL THE HOOPLA ABOUT FLYING
SAUCERS, THEY MAY BE A GOOD THING AFTER ALL, OR SO IT SEEMS FROM
THE LATEST REPORT OF A UFO SIGHTING IN TODAYS TRUD NEWSPAPER.
   A WOMAN IN THE CITY OF YOSHKAR-OLA IN MARI AUTONOMOUS
REPUBLIC, SENT HER SON TO BED, LOOKED THROUGH A WINDOW AND SAW A
BALL OF FIRE FLOATING IN THE SKY OUTSIDE, THE NEWSPAPER REPORTS.
   SUDDENLY, THE UFO BEAMED A BRIGHT RAY AT THE WOMAN. THE LIGHT
WAS VERY MUCH LIKE A  SEARCHLIGHT AND EMANATED FROM THE LOWER
PART OF THE BALL, IT SAYS.
   SIMULTANEOUSLY, SHE HEARD A SOUND LIKE THAT OF A CHAINSAW.
   THE WOMAN WAS PARALYSED BY FEAR AND CLOSED THE WINDOW. THE
BALL SLOWLY BEGAN MOVING AWAY AND SOON DISAPPEARED.
   IN THE MORNING, THE WOMAN, WHO SUFFERED FROM HIGH BLOOD
PRESSURE, FELT A SUDDEN SURGE OF ENERGY. SHE HOWEVER DECIDED TO
CALL ON LOCAL DOCTORS FOR A CHECK-UP.
   DOCTORS FOUND NOTHING WRONG WITH HER, BUT SAID THAT HER BLOOD
PRESSURE HAD RETURNED TO NORMAL.
   ITEM ENDS


----------------------------------------------------------------------


   UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS WATCHED BY HUNDREDS NEAR MOSCOW.
   24/4 TASS 24

   MOSCOW APRIL 15 TASS -- THE NEWSPAPER RABOCHAYA TRIBUNA
PUBLISHED A REPORT TODAY SAYING STRANGE THINGS HAVE BEEN
HAPPENING IN THE AREA OF THE YAROSLAVL HIGHWAY 47 KILOMETERS
OUTSIDE MOSCOW.
   ON SEVERAL NIGHTS SINCE MARCH 12, LARGE LUMINESCENT DISKS AND
SPHERES HAVE BEEN OBSERVED TO APPEAR IN THE SKY ABOVE THE AREA.
THEY ARE SOON REPLACED BY THREE GROUPS OF OBJECTS, SOME RESEMBLE
PINEAPPLES, MEASURING ABOUT SIX METERS IN LENGTH AND FEATURING
TYPICAL PINEAPPLE PATTERNS ALONG THEIR BODIES. OTHERS RESEMBLE
PYRAMIDAL MILK CONTAINERS, STILL OTHERS UPTURNED SOURCES.
   THESE OBJECTS EMIT LIGHT, AND
HEN LUMINESCENCE SUBSIDES,
MULTI-COLOURED LIGHTS CONTINUE TO FLICKER AND GLISTEN. THEY CAN
BE SEEN MOVING VERY FAST OR STOPPING AND CHANGING DIRECTION OF
FLIGHT VERY ABRUPTLY. NO SOUND ACCOMPANIES THE MOVEMENTS --
NEITHER BUZZING NOR WHINING. AT TIMES, A LUMINESCENT CLOUD RISES
ABOVE THE ROADSIDE FOREST.
   LOCAL INHABITANTS, ARMED WITH BINOCULARS, ARE REPORTED TO
HAVE SPENT NIGHTS ON TOP OF THIR HOUSES TO WATCH, THE NEWSPAPER
SAYS. SEVERAL HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE HAVE SEEN THE UFOS. ALL HAVE
DESCRIBED THE OBJECTS IN SIMILAR TERMS.
   ITEM ENDS

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


=START=   XMT: 19:32 Mon Oct 09  EXP: 19:00 Tue Oct 10

SOVIETS REPORT SCIENTIFIC CONFIRMATION OF RECENT UFO LANDING

MOSCOW (OCT. 9) UPI -  The official Soviet news agency Tass reported Monday
that a flying saucer landed in a Russian city recently, and its occupants,
tiny-headed aliens up to 13 feet tall, frightened residents during a stroll
through a park.

The agency said scientists confirmed the landing and extravehicular activity
in Voronezh, a city of about 780,000 people 300 miles south of Moscow, and
noted that the aliens, who were escorted by a robot during their ''promenade
around the park,'' left behind two chunks of rock never before found on
Earth.

''A large shining disk was seen hovering above the park,'' Tass said. ''It
then landed, a hatch opened, and one, two or three creatures similar to
humans and a small robot came out. The aliens were 3 or even 4 meters high
(10 to 13 feet), but with very small heads, witnesses say.

''They walked near the disc and then disappeared inside,'' the official news
agency said. ''Onlookers were overwhelmed by a fear that lasted for several
days.''
Tass added, ''Scientists have confirmed that an unidentified flying object
recently landed in a park in the Russian city of Voronezh,'' Tass said.
''They have also identified the landing site and found traces of aliens who
made a short promenade around the park.

''The aliens visited the place at least three times after dark, local
residents report,'' Tass said.

Tass quoted Genrikh Silanov, head of the Voronezh Geophysical Laboratory, as
saying his scientists identified the landing site by using a technique called
''biolocation.'' The term was not described.

Silanov said in an interview with Tass that the unidentified flying object
left clear marks in the park. ''We detected a circle 20 meters (65 feet) in
diameter,'' he said. ''Four dents 4 to 5 centimeters (1.6 to 2 inches) deep,
each with a diameter of 14 to 16 centimeters (5.5 to 6.3 inches), were
clearly visible.

''We also found two mysterious pieces of rock,'' Silanov said. ''At first
glance they looked like sandstone of a deep-red color. But mineralogical
analysis has shown that the substance cannot be found on earth.''

The scientists acknowledged that ''additional tests are needed to reach a
more definite conclusion.''

Tass said that ''the route along which the aliens walked as described by
witnesses and the route established scientifically coincided.''

=END=

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

=START=   XMT: 08:44 Tue Oct 10  EXP: 09:00 Wed Oct 11

SOVIET REPORTER CHANGES HIS STORY ON UFO REPORT

MOSCOW (OCT. 10) UPI - A correspondent of the Tass news agency who wrote that
an unidentified flying object landed in the city of Voronezh said Tuesday he
did not see the landing and interviewed ''about 10'' youngsters as the source
of his report.

The report by correspondent Vladimir Lebedev, transmitted by the official
Tass agency on Monday, said tiny-headed aliens up to 13-feet tall terrified
the residents of Voronezh when they and a robot escort took nighttime strolls
through a park after landing in their UFO.

Lebedev, 59, a 20-year Tass veteran, told United Press International that he
heard of three landings in September with the last on Sept. 27 in the city
about 300 miles south of Moscow.

Asked whether he had seen any of the landings, he said, ''No,'' and when
asked how he confirmed the story, he said that he spoke to ''about 10
youngsters aged 12 to 13.'' ''No more were needed,'' he said.

Asked whether he believed in the story, Lebedev said, ''One wants to
believe.''

The report about the landing of a UFO is just one of a number of such recent
stories about sightings, but unlike the others the supposed Voronezh sighting
has captured the imagination of the country.

As the perestroika reform program is shaking the foundations of Soviet
society, people looking for something to believe in have gone in big for
mysticism, and the current rage is healing seances. One such mystic, Anatoliy
Kashpirovsky, appears regularly on television. Another, who said he could
stop trains, was recently killed when his attempt failed.

A Tuesday morning television show, a regular program called ''120 Minutes ''
devoted a good portion to the UFO saga with interviews of inhabitants of the
ancient Russian city with a population of 86,000.

An editor at Soviet state television said the news program Vremya would show
footage from Voronezh Tuesday night if they received it in time.

Another newspaper, Sovetskaya Kultura, reported Tuesday that the UFO landed
on Sept. 27, frightening youngsters who were playing football.

But Lebedev, the Tass correspondent, though sticking to his story, said there
might have been some make-believe.

''I think there is a certain portion of truth, but it is not excluded that
there is also fantasizing,'' he said. Asked to explain, he said, ''mature
people may have added certain things.''

Lebedev said he originally wrote the dispatch on Oct. 4 and then again Oct. 9
when it was finally used by the foreign service of Tass. He said he believed
that ''something had happened,'' because otherwise the youngsters would not
have been so frightened.

He said there were lively discussions in schools Tuesday in Voronezh about
the UFO, but otherwise the city was normal.

''Something happened here,'' he said.

Tass Monday said scientists confirmed the landing of a UFO in Voronezh, where
they said aliens left behind two chunks of rock never before found on earth.

''Scientists have confirmed that an unidentified flying object recently
landed in a park in the Russian city of Voronezh,'' the Tass dispatch said.
''They have also identified the landing site and found traces of aliens who
made a short promenade around the park. The aliens visited the place at least
three times after dark, local residents report.''

Tass quoted Genrikh Silanov, head of the Voronezh Geophysical Laboratory, as
saying his scientists identified the landing site by using a technique called
''biolocation.''

''A large shining disk was seen hovering above the park,'' Tass said. ''It
then landed, a hatch opened, and one, two or three creatures similar to
humans and a small robot came out. The aliens were 3 or even 4 meters high
(10-13 feet), but with very small heads, witnesses said. They walked near the
disc and then disappeared inside. Onlookers were overwhelmed by a fear that
lasted for several days.''

Silanov said the aliens' vehicle left clear marks in the park. ''We detected
a circle 65 feet in diameter,'' he said. ''Four dents 1.6-2 inches deep, each
with a diameter of 5.5-6.3 inches, were clearly visible.''

=END=
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

=START=   XMT: 12:19 Sun Oct 15  EXP: 12:00 Wed Oct 18

SOVIET UFO SIGHTINGS LINKED TO RELIGIOUS BELIEF, ESCAPISM

VORONEZH, Soviet Union (OCT. 15) REUTER - A rash of UFO sightings in the
Soviet Union has much more to do with religious belief, escapism and a
newspaper circulation war than with visitors from other planets.

For the past week, Soviet newspapers have entertained the public with stories
about contacts with aliens in spaceships, concentrating on an alleged landing
in September by a UFO (unidentified flying object) in this central Russian
city.

The phenomenon is not new -- the press had earlier carried stories of
extra-terrestrial activity -- but public interest is keen despite the fact
that no evidence has emerged to back up the stories other than the statements
of a few children.

''Much of it has to do with the tremendous upsurge in religion over the past
few years. Russians are by nature deeply religious people and are now
desperately looking for something to believe in,'' said one Western diplomat
in Moscow.

Religious belief was heavily discouraged during the rule of Soviet dictator
Josef Stalin and only really started to recover after Mikhail Gorbachev came
to power and encouraged more freedom of thought.

''I believe the spaceship was a message from Jesus. He was telling us we have
to be as innocent as children, which is why only the young saw the spaceship
land,'' said Alexander Mosolov, a member of the local team investigating the
Voronezh incident.

The popularity of UFO stories has been matched by the rise to fame of
television faith healers such as Anatoly Kashpirovsky and Alan Chumak, both
of whom regularly draw huge audiences to their shows.

''Don't forget that in many ways this is a Middle Ages culture. People are
God-fearing, gullible and very, very superstitious. There has always been a
belief in the occult here,'' said a Soviet academic.

Some analysts say Gorbachev's policy of glasnost, or openness in the press
has provided particularly fertile ground for stories of visits from other
planets.

The policy has encouraged the press to discuss many previously taboo
subjects, such as Stalin's reign of terror in the 1930s.

''The trouble is that they're running out of fascinating revelations from the
past. People know that Stalin was a bad man, but even Lenin had his problems.
They need new sensational discoveries and UFOs fit the bill perfectly,'' one
diplomat said.

The rush for exclusive stories has also resulted in a circulation war using
tactics that would impress even the hardest of Western popular press editors.

In August, Moscow's Vechernyaya Moskva daily said Chumak would bless the
subscription coupon in its Sept. 1 issue, guaranteeing a happy life and other
wonderful benefits to those who subscribed using the coupon.

Anxious readers mobbed the capital's newspaper vendors, and on the black
market copies of the issue fetched up to 20 times their face value.

The chaotic state of the nation's economy has encouraged many Soviet citizens
to revel in stories of UFO visits, temporarily forgetting that the shelves in
most stores are practically empty.

''Almost all the news here is very depressing -- lack of food, AIDS,
corruption and rocketing crime. Flying saucers take people's minds off
everyday life. They're good fun,'' said a Soviet journalist in Voronezh.

Virtually everyone questioned here claims to know of someone who has seen a
spaceship or aliens at some stage in the past.

''Rumors are particuarly powerful here. Because the state controls the media,
rumors are the quickest way of transmitting unofficial news. Unless they are
quickly quashed, people tend to assume they are true'' said a Soviet
physicist.

The Communist Party daily Pravda poked fun Sunday at the newspaper stories
about alien landings in a spoof headlined ''Aliens in Joytown.''

=END=

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

=START=   XMT: 10:55 Fri Nov 09  EXP: 11:00 Sat Nov 10

FRENCH SPACE AGENCY SAYS UFO'S WERE SOVIET ROCKET PARTS

TOULOUSE, FRANCE (NOV. 9) REUTER - The French space agency said on Friday
mysterious lights seen in the sky above five European countries were caused by
part of a Soviet space rocket re-entering the atmosphere.

''The phenomenom has been identified as the third stage of a Soviet booster
rocket used on October 3 to launch into orbit a Gorizont-21 type
telecommunications satellite,'' the agency said.

Thousands of people in France, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland and Italy reported
seeing an illuminated form gliding silently across the sky shortly after 1800
GMT on Monday evening.

The sightings aroused speculation about a visit to earth by Unidentified Flying
Objects (UFO's) from outer space.

But the French National Center for Space Studies (CNES) said in a statement
that it concluded the lights were caused by the re-entry of a piece of Soviet
space junk.

''In its final phase of disintegration, the rocket part crossed France on a Pau
to Strasbourg orbit (southwest to east),'' CNES said.

''Exceptionally clear weather conditions assisted the observation of its
re-entry into the atmosphere,'' it added.

=END=

-------------------------------------------------------------------

            FOREIGN  NEWS
Tribune, New York, NY- June 14,1990
CR: A. Huneeus [Reprinted with permission]

J. ANTONIO HUNEEUS/ SCIENCE FRONTIERS

GREAT SOVIET UFO FLAP OF 1989 CENTERS ON DALNEGORSK CRASH
             First in a two-part series
Several  months  ago  we   reported  in  this  column  about  the
well-publicized series  of  bizarre  reports  of UFO landings and
close  encounters  with  giant  aliens  in  the  Russian  city of
Voronezh, as well as other  cases  obtained  from interviews with
Soviet researchers during last fall's  International UFO Congress
in Frankfurt, Germany.  I have obtained  a large amount of Soviet
UFO data since then from a variety  of sources both in the Soviet
Union and the United States.
     I recently completed a lengthy and  detailed paper entitled,
Red Skies:  The Great 1989 UFO  Wave  In the USSR, to be included
in  the   1989   Symposium   Proceedings   of   the   Mutual  UFO
Network(MUFON), the world's largest research organization in this
field, which will take place  next  month  in Pensacola, Florida.
We will publish in this series  selected  excerpts  which contain
interesting physical and military  evidence.  The first one deals
with the enigmatic report of  the  crash  of an unknown object in
the city of Dalnegorsk on the Pacific  coast of the Soviet Union,
while the following week we'll  report  on  a recent radar-visual
UFO incident  which  resulted  in  a  military  scramble alert by
Soviet Air Defense forces.
     A detailed account  of  the  series  of  complex  UFO events
registered in the city of  Dalnegorsk  during the past four years
goes  beyond  the  scope  of  this  article.   Nevertheless,  the
Dalnegorsk flap should be  discussed  because it contains some of
the  most  extraordinary   physical  evidence  collected  so  far
anywhere in the world, and also because UFO sightings continue to
be reported in this area to  this  day.  Thanks to the assistance
of Major (Ret.) Colman won Deviczky, director of the Queens-based
ICUFON research group who has  extensive  contacts  in the Soviet
Union, this writer has obtained several reports of the Dalnegorsk
incidents prepared by one of its principal investigatiors, Valeri
Dvuzhilny, head  of  the  Far  Eastern  Commission  on  Anomalous
Phenomena.
     Even though the Commission has recorded numerous cases going
back to the 1970', it seems the  most  inportant  incident so far
was the crash of an  unknown  object  on  Dalnegorsk  Hill 611 on
January 29, 1986, at 7:55 p.m.  On that date, according to one of
the reports by Dvuzhilny,"residents of the settlements observed a
reddish-orange sphere the size  of  a  half moon, which flew from
the southwest at 260 degrees.   Its  altitude was 700-8-- meters.
The flight was parallel to the wurface  of the Earth, without the
angles which are characteristic  for  meteorites.   The witnesses
heard absolutely no noises.  The calculated  speed by chronometer
was 15 meters per second.  There was no change of direction or of
altitude."
     The object then approached  the  Izvesrkovaya  mountain,  or
Hill611, which has an elevation  of  600 meters and is located at
the center of the town.  "The  object  made a dive and went at an
angle of 60-70 degrees on the  cliff  ledge,  where it 'fell' and
burned  for  one  hour,"  continues  the  report.   "Some  of the
witnesses affirm that it rose  and  lowered itself six times, and
that its  light  was  intensified  during  its  rise and weakened
during its  lowering."   Dvuzhilny  and  his  team arrived on the
scene February 3, finding  a  number  of  physical  traces, which
included lead and  iron  balls,  bits  of  glass,  a fine mesh or
netting, traces of high temperature  activity, magnetic anomalies
and damage to nearby trees and stumps.
     The materials have  been  analyzed  by  several laboratories
from three Soviet academic  centers  and  11 research institutes.
The results, however, have proven to be highly enigmatic, leading
Dvuzhilny and other scientists  to  conclude  that the Dalnegorsk
object was probably an  artificial  space probe of non-terestrial
origin.  According  to  one  report  published  in  the newspaper
Socialist Industry, "In  the  scales  [or  mesh],  almost all the
elements of the  entire  periodic  table  were  found."  Spectral
analysis of the lead  balls,  for  instance,  showed that besides
lead, these contained silicon (20 percent), aluminum(10 percent),
iron(15   percent),   zinc(1.5percent),    titanium(2   percent),
magnesium(1 percent),  and  silver(2percent),  as  well as minute
portions of copper,  lantanium,  praseodymium,  calcium,  sodium,
vanadium, cerium, chrome, cobalt, nickel, and molybdenum.
     The scales or mesh reacted in a  very  strange manner during
the laboratory analysis.  The Socialist  Industry report said one
of the scientists, A.  Makeev,  "presented  the  roentgenological
structural analysis and showed that from one scale, after melting
it in a  vacuum,  all  of  a  sudden  gold,  silver,  and  nickel
disappeared.  But there  appeared  alpha-titanium and molybdenum.
In another scale, the metals did not appear at all.  And for some
reason, after the heating, there appeared beryllium sulphide."
     There were still further  surprises,  such  as "six areas of
magnetized silica rock" (silica is  a nonmagnetic material) found
on the site.   This  and  other  results  were  published  by  A.
Petukhov and T. Faminskaya, members  of the Council of Scientific
and  Engineering  Societies'  Commission  on  Paranormal  Events.
"Vivid interest  was  also  evoked  by  the  mesh, a carbon-based
composite of unknown  origin,"  wrote  Petukhov  and  Faminskaya.
"The specimen was found to  include  quartz  filaments 17 microns
thick, and golden wires inside each filament."
     Other anomalous  effects  included  the  blackened photos of
Hill 611 taken by the researchers,  and the biological effects on
the   researchers   themselves.      According  to  Petukhov  and
Faminskaya, "the researchers  working  at the site showed changes
in their blood (a  reduced  count  of  leucocytes  and platelets,
changes  in  the   structure   of   erythrocytes)    and  sensory
disturbances."  Dvuzhilny  described  in  more detail the medical
investigation involving five  researchers  who spent considerable
time at Hill 611, and a control group.
     All  of  this  led  some  investigators   to  conclude  that
something alien  had  indeed  crashed  at  Hill  611 V. Vysotsky,
Doctor of Chemistry from Vlakivostok, stated:  "Undoubtedly, this
is a  high-technology  product  and  not  a  thing  of natural or
terestrial origin."  Dvuzhilny proposed that it was "an automatic
scout probe"  of  alien  origin,  and  rejected  the  altermative
hypothesis that it could  have  been  a  natural  plasmoid.  This
hypothesis     was     proposed     by     a     candidate     of
geological-mineralogical   science,   V.N.   Salnikov.    It  was
summarized  by   Yuri   Rylkin,   a   phycisist  with  the  Tomsk
Poltechnical Institure, in a paper presented at the International
UFO Congress in Frankfut in October of 1989.
     "The Dalnegorsk object," wrote Rylkin,  "represents a plasma
formation on the  base  of  electromagnetical  structure,  called
plasmoid, whose trajectory  passed  over  geological breaking and
parallel  to  high-voltage   electrotransmission   line.   It  is
supposed that this plasmoid  absorbed  selectively  some chemical
elements, for example, the  noble  and  rare metals.  As Salnikov
considers,  such  formations   may  be  formed  by  litospherical
waveguides, or  may  appear  in  anomalous  stressed  geophysical
fields mear geological breakings."   We'll have more to say about
these so-called plasmoids in this series' second part.
     Still another  hypothesis  was  offered  by  Yuri  Platov, a
senior  researcher  with   the   Institute  if  Earth  Magnetism,
Ionesphere  and  Radiowave  Propagation  of  the  USSR Academy of
Sciences and a noted  UFO  skeptic.   Platov  maintains  that the
Dalnegorsk phenomenon "in reality  was connected with the conduct
of a technical experiment."  I  have  seen no supportive evidence
to back that assertion,  however.   Dvuzhilny responds that there
were no rocket launches and no civilian  or military traffic over
Dalnegorsk on that night.

               SIGHTINGS CONTINUE

Regardless of its ultimate origin, the crash on Hill 611 was only
the beginning of an intense UFO flap in Dalnegorsk that continues
to  this  day.   For   instance,   another  report  by  Dvuzhilny
indicat6es "on February 6, 1986, eight  days after the UFO crash,
there appeared from the  north  two  yellow  globes  at 8:30 p.m.
They approached the  crash  spot,  made  four circles over it and
disappeared with a flash."  By  and  large,  however, the largest
display of UFOs in the Dalnegorsk  and Primorye areas occurred on
the night of NOv. 28,1987.
     Again, according to one of Dvulzhiny's reports, "on Saturday
November 28, 1987, 33 UFOs were  flying  at a low height over the
Eastern coast of Primorye.  Their flights took place between 9:10
pm and  midnight.   They  were  of  different  shape:  cylinders,
cigars, globes.  They were  flying  over  five regions and twelve
settlements.  None of the  witnesses  claimed they had seen UFOs.
They thought they saw aircraft  crashing.   All were wurprised to
hear no noise."
     Inquiries made by Dvuzhilny showed there had been no flights
of  civil  or  military  aircraft  at  that  time,  and  that  no
carrier-rockets  had  been  launched   from  Soviet  cosmodromes.
Moreover, continued Dvuzhilny, "the  objects observed had nothing
in common with  the effects of  rocket  launching  that are quite
different.  They  were  not  like  fireballs,  ball  lightning or
plasmoids."
     Further on, Dvuzhilny  added  that  "out  of the 33 UFOs, 13
flew over Dalnegorsk."  There were  over 100 vitnesses, including
military personnel, militia (police),  border guards and sailors,
as well as all kinds of civilian workers,  who were questioned by
the Far Eastern Commission.   Finally,  reports Dvuzhilny, "those
objects caused a two minute  cutting-off  of  HF [high frequency]
circuits of TV, telegraph and  other  appliances.  Computers were
cut off, their programs  spoiled.   All  that was due to powerful
electromagnetic fields of UFOs (cover, engines) reaching hundreds
and thousamds of KWs."
     Many other sightings have occurred in Dalnegorsk.  According
to the Far Eastern Commission,  45  UFOs were registered in 1987,
15 in 1988, 32 in 1989 (up to  the  month of July).  Nor have the
sightings been restricted to Dalnegorsk  alone.  Other cases have
been reported near the larger city of Vladivostok.  These include
a close encounter involving two  separate  cars  on September 17,
1988, where one of the drivers seemed to lose control of his car;
and a second, undated, event reported by the Krasnoye Znamia (Red
Banner) newspaper, about  a  whole  section  of Vladivostok being
illuminated between 2 and 4 a. m.  by a light beam from an unseen
source.  Because of the late hour, only a few people who were not
asleep   observed   the   phenomenon.    Interestingly,   similar
occurrences of an  unknown  light  beam  illuminating a city have
been reported a few times in  the  city  of Arica in the northern
tip of Chile.


-----------------------------------------------------------------


Tribune, New York, NY - June 21, 1990
CR: A. Huneeus {Reprinted with permission}

ANTONIO HUNEEUS/SCIENCE FRONTIERS

SOVIET PRESS AIRS STARTLING UFO EVIDENCE FROM MILITARY SOURCES

             Second in a two-part series.
Last week we revealed how  the  Soviet  Union  is experiencing an
intense UFO wave and  how,  due  to  glasnost,  what  was  once a
forbidden subject is now  covered  in detail by the Soviet press.
Even cases involving  the  Soviet  military  are now reaching the
public.
     On  Sept.  30,  1989,  the   newspaper   Sotsiahisticheskaya
Industriya  (Socialist   Industry)   quoted  Anatoliy  Listratov,
chairman of the  anomalous  phenomena  section  of  the All-Union
Astronomical and Geodesic Society, that "Soviet military officers
and pilots had recently started  providing  some documentation on
UFO sightings."  That and similar articles were translated by the
U.S.  government's   Foreign   /broadcast   Information   Service
(FBIS).An FBIS "Foreign Press Note"  entitled "USSR: Media Report
Multitude of UFO Sightings" was dated Nov. 22, 1989.
     The article described one  of  the  most  serious UFO injury
cases ever reported, involving  the  scramble  of two Soviet jets
over the city of Borisov in Byelorussia: "The crews of two Soviet
aircraft reported seeing a  large  flying  disk in their vicinity
with five beams of  lights  enamating  from  it: three beams were
directed toward the ground and two were projected upward when the
object was first sighted.  The  ground  controller instructed one
of the planes to alter  its  course  and  approach the object, at
which point the disk flew to the same  level and aimed one of its
beams at the approaching Soviet plane, illuminating the cockpit."
     The pilot's log stated, "At  this  time,  the copilot was at
the controls.  He observed the maneuver  that the object had just
carried out and was able to raise his hand to shield himself from
the unbearable light.  The aircraft  commander was resting in the
adjoining seat, and a bright ray of light, projecting a spot with
a diameter of  20  centimeters,  passed  across  his  body.  Both
pilots felt heat."

          One Injured, Another Dead
Both crewmen later  became  "invalids,"  the  article said.  "The
copilot was forced to leave his job due to a sudden deterioration
in his health, including the onset of sudden prolonged periods of
'loss of consciousness.'  The  aircraft  commander  died within a
few months.  The  cause  of  death  was  listed  as  'cancer' and
'injury to  the  organism  as  a  result  of  radiation  from  an
unidentified flying object' was  listed  as a contributing factor
on  the  official  medical  record  in  the  hospital  where  the
commander died."
     This is not the only military UFO incident to be reported in
the Soviet press.  In  an  unprecedented  statement  published in
Rabochaya Tribuna on April 19, General  of Aviation Igor Maltsev,
chief of the Main Staff of Air Defense Forces, openly discussed a
radar-visual and jet scramble incident on the Pereslavl-Zalesskiy
region, east of Moscow, on the  night  of March 21.  This article
was  also  translated  by  FBIS   and  leaked  to  some  American
ufologists.  We have also  secured  a Russian copy of the article
entitled "OFOs on Air Defense Radars."
     Due  to  its  importance  we  shall   quote  Gen.  Maltsev's
statement in full.  He said: "I  am  not a specialist on UFOs and
therefore I  can  only  correlate  the  data  and  express my own
supposition.  According to the  evidence  of  these eyewitnesses,
the UFO is a disk with a  diameter  from  100 to 200 meters.  Two
pulsating lights were  positioned  on its sides.  When the object
flew in a horizontal plane the line of the lights was parallel to
the  horizon.   During  vertical  movement  it  rotated  and  was
perpendicular to the gorund.  Moreover, the object rotated around
its axis and performed an 'S-turn'  flight both in the horizontal
and vertical planes.  Next, the  UFO  hovered over the ground and
then flew with a speed  exceeding  that of the modern jet fighter
by 2 or 3 times.  All of the  observers  moticed  that the flight
speed was directly related to  the  flashing  of the side lights:
the more often they flashed, the higher the speed.
    "The objects flew at altitudes  ranging  from  1,000 to 7,000
meters.  The movement of the UFOs was not accompanied by sound of
any kind and was distinguished by  its startling maneuverability.
It seemed the UFOs were completely  devoid of intertia.  In other
words, they had somehow  'come  to  terms'  with gravity.  At the
present time,  terrestrial  machines  could  hardly have any such
capabilities.  The object was  observed  as  a 'pip' from a radar
target on the screens of aircraft radar sights and on the screens
of several electronic  surveillance  sub-units.   One station did
not establish an ovservation."
     Rabochaya Tribuna also said  unit  commanders compiled "more
than 100 visual observations" and passed them on to Gen. Maltsev.
Lt. Col. A.A. Semenchenko "received the command to go on an alert
exercise" at 21:38 hours.  "I  received  my task of detecting and
identifying a target at an altitude of 2000 meters," he reported.
He  established  visual  contact,  although  "the  target did not
respond to the 'identify, friend or  die,' request."  Considering
the Borisov incident, it  is  interesting  to  note  his comment,
"with the permission of the command post, I locked my sights onto
the radiation after  checking  to  be  sure that the weaponry was
switched off."  The paper also published  the testimonies of four
captains and a radar post as  well  as  a photograph taken of the
Yaroslavskiy Highway.

          A 'Victory' for UFO Buffs
The newspaper editors commented, "UFO enthusiasts can celebrate a
victory.  It is the first time  that  the  military so openly and
impressively witness on behalf  of  'flying saucers.'  Especially
pleasing is the fact that the disclosure  was made by air defense
representatives,    people    who    possess   unique   technical
possibilities  for  observations.   Maybe  now they will disclose
past secrets, legends of  which  are  very  popular.  Let us hope
that the  present  publication  is  a  good  occasion for further
disclosures."

     The editors went on to say that these  incidents "demolish a
hypothesis which relate UFOs to atmospheric  phenomena."  This is
particularly interesting  since  in  June  of  1989, the official
Soviet  Military  Review   published  an  article  on  "UFOs  and
Security," which concluded that UFOs  were most likely related to
"certain plasma formations."


----------------------------------------------------------------


Arizona Republic, Phoenix, AZ-July 15, 1990

CR: D. Kettles

SOVIET DEFENSE UNIT SCRAMBLES TO CHECK SIGHTINGS OF UFOS
Pilots, radar spot 'flying saucers'
By David Wood
Newhouse News Service

     WASHINGTON-The Cold War may be over,  but the Soviet Union's
military air  defenses  are  struggling  with  a  new threat:  an
apparent invasion by flying saucers.
     Dozens    of     sightings     of     unidentified    flying
objects-disk-shaped   spacecraft   with   blinking   lights   and
performing impossibly high-speed maneuvers-have been recounted in
the past few months,  including  eyewitness  reports  from Soviet
interceptor pilots  that  reportedly  have  been  corroborated by
surveillance radar.
     "I am not a specialist on UFOs,  and,  therefore, I can only
correlate the data and  express  my  own  supposition," said Gen.
Igor Maltsev, chief of the main staff of the Air Defense Forces.
     And what is Maltsev's supposition?   That UFOs exist and are
piloted by extraterrestrials, he indicated in an interview with a
Moscow Communist Party newspaper, Rabochaya Tribuna.
     And they may  not  be  friendly.    Vladimir  Akhaltsev  was
driving his milk tanker truck one  night in May when he noticed a
shining ball following him.  He  tried  to outrun it, gunning his
rig to 60 mph on the twisting road several hundred miles south of
Moscow before the UFO gave up the chase.
     Farmers who also saw the shining ball were said by the local
newspaper to  have  demanded,  "If  thirsty  humaniods  steal our
driver, who is going to deliver the milk?"
     Other Soviet  reports,  monitored  and  distributed  without
comment by the U.S. Air Force's  Technical  Information  Division
and  by  the  State   Department,   have   UFOs  sniffing  around
politically restive Estonia, probing with mysterious light rays a
buried gas pipeline in Siberia, and  hovering over the village of
Delnegorsk in the eastern Soviet Union.
     The Soviets, a deeply  superstitious  people with a historic
mistrust of foreigners, have a ready  explanation:  Space aliens,
perhaps running out of supplies at  home, are after their natural
resources.
     Whatever  their  purpose,   reports   of  alien  visits  are
exhaustively checked by the  Soviets'  elite  Air Defense Forces,
which operates the military's most sophisticated aircraft and the
most powerful system of ground-based  surveillance radar networks
in the world.
     The Soviet  air-defense  unit  has  had  a  bad  case of the
jitters since 1987, when a 19-year-old West German on a lark flew
a single-engine  Cessna  unmolested  through  400 miles of Soviet
airspace before buzzing President  Gorbachev's Kremlin office and
touching down in Red Square.
     Today, with those unpredictable  Americans  flying around in
"Stealth" aircraft, no  general  or  lowly  radarman  is going to
overlook an unexplained radar  blip  or ignore a hysterical phone
call.
     An example is the call  from  several  Soviet  policemen who
breathlessly reported last spring  that they had been shadowed by
"two disk-shaped UFOs" near Krasnoyarsk.
     Or, the ominous report from Maj. V.  Stroynetskiy, who along
with "several  hundred  other  witnesses"  claimed  to  have seen
numerous  blinking,  iridescent  UFOs  cavorting  over  a highway
outside Moscow.
     Soviet Lt. Col. A. A. Semenchenko was properly cautious when
he and other pilots recently  were  sent aloft to check out a UFO
at 6,000  feet  over  Pereslavl-Zalesskiy,  a  city  northeast of
Moscow, according to after-action reports released by Maltsev and
published by Rabochaya Tribuna.
     "I visually detected the target, designated  by two flashing
white lights, at 2205 hours," Semenchenko reported.
     Capt. V. Birin said the object "looked  like a flying saucer
with two very bright lights along the edges."
     In confirmation, ground-control radar  said, "At 2203 hours,
a fighter aircraft appeared in the  field of observation... While
the fighter was approaching the object, the latter disappeared."
     Capt. V. Ivchenko and others  pilots  said  the UFO's lights
flashed more quickly as the spacecraft accelerated.

------------------------------------------------------------------

DAILY EXPRESS, London, England-June 25, 1990
CR: T. Good

UFO 'SHOT DOWN BY RUSSIANS'

From GRAHAM LEES in Munich

Soviet fighter planes shot down a giant UFO, and the wreckage was
later recovered, it was claimed yesterday.
     The close encounter was described by Soviet scientists at an
international conference on UFOs in Munich, West Germany.
     The scientists said the incident had  been kept quiet by the
Soviet military authorities,  but  documents and anpicture of the
UFO wreckage had recently been leaked.
     Two MIG25 fighters allegedly intercepted the UFO in a remote
region of Azarbaijan in  1983.   They  fired  two rockets when it
turned on to a collision course.
    The pilot's report said the UFO  turned  a  bright colour and
fell to earth.
     The wreckage was discovered  by  two  mushroom  pickers  who
later died-apparently from exposure to radiation.

----------------------------------------------------------------


TODAY, London, England-June 25, 1990
CR: T. Good

RUSSIAN FIGHTERS DOWNED A UFO

Russian fighters shot down a UFO which flew straight at them.
     They saw it change colour and  plummet  to  the ground after
their rockets slammed home.
     Two peasants  who  found  a  piece  of  wreckage  died  soon
afterwards.  The rest of the  craft  is  being kept hidden by the
KGB.
     The amazing claims weremade  yesterday  by Soviet scientists
attending a conference on UFOs in West Germany.
     Dr. Marina Popvich, a former Russian airforce colonel, said:
"I believe  the  military  are  holding  on  to  something  which
originated outside our planet."
     The delegation said the UFO was shot  down in 1983 by a pair
of MIG fighters.
     Two peasants who found a piece  nearly  20-feet square later
died, apparently from the effects of radiation.
     Dr. Valery Uvarov said:  "We  have  seen the pilot's report.
It says the UFO did not explode  but  turned  a bright colour and
then fell to earth."
     A  leading  German  scientist  said:   "I  am  usually  very
sceptical about most UFO stories,  but this one cannot be treated
lightly."


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    New York Times, Thursday, October 12, 1989
    __________________________________________


                     TASS'S THRILL: JOKING OVER UFO REPORT
                                By Eleanor Blau


    The  report  by  the  Soviet  press  agency Tass that lanky, three-eyed
    creatures took a stroll through a Soviet park  last  month  has  caused
    such reverberations in the United States that they have bounced back to
    Tass itself.

    The agency reported Tuesday that major American television networks and
    newspapers,  which  it  said typically avoid stories about unidentified
    flying objects, "played up the space adventure, frequently  poking  fun
    and  suggesting  that  the beings from outer space might be a result of
    overzealous glasnost."

    The Tass report, written by an American working for the agency, did not
    sound resentful. It quoted Edwin Diamond  a  New  York  Magazine  media
    critic  who  criticized what he called the story's shallowness, saying,
    "What did the Academy of Science think? Where are the pictures?"

    Ant it quoted Yervant  Turzian  of  the  Cornell  University  Astronomy
    Department, who said fellow academics regarded the story as a joke.

    DRAWING OF CREATURE IS BROADCAST

    "Given the physical parameters of the universe, the possibility of life
    on  other  planets  is  high,"  he told Tass. "But the vast majority of
    these reports can be explained by such logical phenomena  as  unconven-
    tional aircraft in the sky or artificial satellites."

    On  the  other hand, Tass found that "A Current Affair," the syndicated
    news and entertainment show, was taking the report seriously enough  to
    plan  on sending a film crew to Voronezh. That is where Tass originally
    reported that three children had said they saw  aliens  emerge  from  a
    ball, wearing silvery overalls.

    Last  night,  Soviet  television  viewers  saw  a picture of one of the
    creatures on the main nightly news program, "Vremya," in the form of  a
    scribbled  drawing  by  one  of the children. It showed a smiling stick
    figure inside a glowing two-legged sphere.

    Vremya sounded more skeptical than the original  Tass  report,  but  it
    offered  without comment an interview with Vasya Surin, one of the pur-
    ported witnesses.

    "HE DIDN'T HAVE A HEAD"

    "We were scared," says Vasya, who appeared to be about 11. "It  hovered
    over  this  tree. Then the door opened and a tall person of about three
    meters looked out. He didn't have a head, or shoulders either. He  just
    had  a  kind of hump. There he had three eyes, two on each side and one
    in the middle."

    Vasya said the alien had two holes instead of a  nose,  and  could  not
    turn its head, so it had to swivel its middle eye.

    But "Vremya" cast some doubt on the reports of the sighting, noting for
    instance,  that  there  were  no  adult  witnesses, even though a large
    apartment house overlooked the site.

    Since the first UFO sightings  in  the  1940's,  spaceships  have  been
    described  as  sausages, cigars, balls, bananas, crescents, round straw
    hats, eggs, mushrooms, disks  and,  especially,  saucers.  But  in  the
    1980's  "Saucers  are out; boomerangs are in," said Jim Speiser, a com-
    puter expert in Scottsdale, Ariz. He founded a  national  UFO  computer
    network  in  1986 because he thought there should be an exchange of in-
    formation instead of disputes among people who reacted variously to UFO
    stories, "from skeptics to wild-eyed gee-whiz believers."

    In a telephone interview, Mr.  Speiser  said  of  the  reported  Soviet
    sighting: "I think Tass is exploring its new freedom and is not used to
    self-censorship. I don't disbelieve, but we have much better stories in
    this country."

    Also  surprised  - but only because he thinks the media ignores UFO re-
    ports - is Tim Beckley of Inner Light Publications. He edits  UFO  Uni-
    verse,  a  glossy  magazine that prints 100,000 copies six times a year
    and distributes them internationally.

    Mr. Beckley said that he is a journalist, not a scientist, and that  he
    is  almost as puzzled about UFOs now as he was when he saw his first in
    1957, as a 10-year-old in New Brunswick, NJ. "Its kind of a cosmic game
    those entities seem to be playing with us," he said.


----- EOF -----


Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
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UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: Meessen - Belgian UFO Sightings 1989-90 part1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Sep 91 02:37:50 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2224 alt.conspiracy:7730 sci.skeptic:15717





----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your perusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.

----Meessen part 1 ---------------------------------------------


(C) 1991 by the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies.
Excerpted from the IUR, May/June, 1991; Volume 16, Number 3.

THE BELGIAN SIGHTINGS

by Auguste Meessen

-  -  Auguste  Meessen is professor of physics  at  the  Catholic
University of Louvain. This article, which first appeared in  the
November  1990 issue of Inforespace, is reprinted by  permission.
It  was translated by Andrea Donderi, Mark Rodeghier, and  W.  D.
Milner.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
     The sightings that occurred in Belgium between November 1989
and  June 1990 have given us an impressive body of new  data.  We
have  even  been  able  to study in  detail  material  from  both
military and civilian ground radar screens. Moreover, an in-depth
examination of on-board radar data from one of the F-16s sent  up
by  the Belgian Air Force during the night of March 30-31,  1990,
is currently under way. As far as I know, this is the first  such
opportunity  in the world, but much remains to be done.  I  shall
therefore only give an overview of this research. I shall outline
what we are doing and briefly describe our methods.
     I  shall  also  include  some  remarks  on  the  unwarranted
generalizations  that are still too frequently encountered  (from
skeptics)  and  on the reactions of eyewitnesses in  the  current
socio-psychological climate in European ufology. Finally, I shall
present  a few reports of sightings made in Belgium  and  abroad.
One  case in particular, the enormous lozenge-shaped object  that
flew over the outskirts of the town of Eupen on December 1, 1989,
is  representative  of  the quality and  importance  of  the  new
information. In assessing reports it is important to be aware  of
what has been happening in other countries, so I shall include  a
few  foreign cases that suggest the wave of sightings may not  be
over.

Ground investigations

     At  the  beginning  of December 1989  I  joined  the  SOBEPS
(Societe Belge d'Etude des Phenomenes Spatiaux) investigation. It
was  vital to familiarize myself personally with the  number  and
quality   of  the  eyewitness  reports.  I  concentrated   almost
exclusively on the Eupen region, of which I am a native. I  hoped
that my fluency in German and my profession as a physicist  would
help   loosen   people's  tongues.  I  have   noted   that   many
eyewitnesses,  and  particularly  the  most  reliable  ones  with
important social responsibilities, are reluctant to discuss  what
they   have  seen  because  of   irrational   socio-psychological
pressures.
     The evening of November 29, 1989, was decisive, because  two
Eupen  police officers had the courage to describe on  television
the UFO they had painstakingly observed. There were several other
sightings  that same day. I shall be compiling a list of them  in
the book that SOBEPS is planning to publish. I have discovered  a
series  of eyewitness accounts that form a coherent  sequence  in
time  and  space that day. The sightings made by Mr. J  (more  on
which  later)  provide one example of what can  be  learned  from
these  witnesses. In my opinion, data of these kinds, when  taken
together  with  the  whole body of sightings  worldwide,  pose  a
challenge  to  the scientific community and to  every  thoughtful
person.
     Journalists  have had an especially important role. Some  of
them  have performed their work conscientiously, but others  were
simply seeking sensational stories. Yet more felt obliged to lead
a personal crusade against the gathering of eyewitness reports. I
will cite just one example whose immediate effects I observed.
     A few days after December 18, 1989, a gendarme in the  Eupen
area  refused  to tell me what he had seen, probably  because  on
that  date  a local daily paper had published  an  article  which
asserted that the "most plausible explanation" for UFO  sightings
was  that the U. S. Air Force was secretly testing F-117A  planes
over  Belgium.  This  article  was  preceded  by  the  impressive
headline  "Explanation  from  Washington,"  and  the   subheading
referred  to a "hysteria" of UFO sightings. I was sent a copy  of
this paper the same day and immediately inquired into the matter,
since these stories also form an aspect of the UFO phenomenon.
     It  turned out that the "explanation" was only  speculation,
put forward by the Flemish paper Het Laatste Nieuws. I phoned the
journalist who wrote the article that triggered off a rumor which
is  still causing much ink to be spilt. He explained that he  had
just  read  an article on the F-117A and wished to pass  on  such
information to his readers. To make his article more interesting,
he  had suggested (gratuitously, with no reference to the  actual
sightings) that there might be a possible connection with  recent
sightings  in  Belgium. In the meantime, I had learned  from  Lt.
Col.  De Brouwer, Chief of Operations of the Belgian  Air  Force,
that  the  Air  Force had sought information  from  the  American
Embassy  to help them explain the reports. This should  not  have
been necessary if the sightings were caused by secret  exercises,
as  De  Brouwer routinely would have been informed  of  any  such
overflights.  Instead,  he took the trouble  to  secure  accurate
information  about what the many Belgian eyewitnesses had  really
seen.
     Learning  that  an official American disclaimer  was  to  be
published, I telephoned the Eupen journalist to tell him the news
and to ask him to publish a correction as soon as possible.  When
I asked him why he had spoken of "an explanation from Washington"
and  characterized  the eyewitness accounts of  local  people  as
"hysterical " he responded, "I am against all that." I appreciate
his  candor,  but  that  does not  square  with  the  regard  for
objectivity one expects of journalists. Such attitudes constitute
disinformation and serve to dissuade eyewitnesses; they make  the
search for truth more difficult.

The search for more objective information

     Having convinced myself of the reality and importance of the
wave  of UFO sightings in our country, I concluded that it  would
have  been  scientifically  irresponsible  to  ignore  this  wave
without  trying to find out what had turned up on  our  country's
radar screens. I did not know how to gain access to the data, but
I felt that reason would eventually prevail. Since early December
1989  I  had  been in contact with Lt. Col.  De  Brouwer  at  the
Headquarters of the Belgian Air Force, requesting that any  radar
documentation  be  preserved  for a  thorough  scientific  study.
Shortly afterwards I sent a similar written request to Guy Coeme,
Minister of National Defense.
     I also met the head of the air traffic control at  Zaventem,
the  Brussels  airport.  I learned that  he  and  his  associates
preserve  recordings of radar data for several weeks on  magnetic
tape  in  the event of any inquiries relating to  air  safety.  I
therefore  addressed a written request to Mr. Vandenbroucke,  the
General Manager of the Airlines Administration, for permission to
videotape   certain  excerpts.  These  would  be  restricted   to
sequences  selected on the basis of the number of  fairly  close-
range and reliable UFO sightings. The goal was to verify  whether
there  had been any suspicious radar traces before or  after  the
sighting  times,  given that the UFOs were  doubtless  below  the
radar coverage at the time of very low-altitude sightings.
     Although  the response was delayed, a call  to  Vanenbroucke
brought immediate cooperation. I convey my warm thanks to him and
to  the Chief Engineer and the technical radar personnel  of  our
national  airport  for  their  effective  support,  which  proved
useful. In consequence I have been able to film and analyze  more
than 180 hours of data from the Bertem radar installation,  which
serves Zaventem airport. In brief, two surprising and significant
discoveries  emerged  from this material. I shall  describe  them
later. One of these discoveries concerned the fact that echoes of
unidentified  origin  often moved along  linear  trajectories  of
limited length. This perplexed me. I continued to collect as many
data  as possible, refusing to adopt any  particular  hypothesis.
Furthermore, it was vital to analyze these data quickly so that I
could  assimilate their essential characteristics  and  determine
what was worth studying more closely. In fact, I was involved  in
a race against time, since the magnetic tapes were retained  only
for a few weeks. Any potentially important material that I failed
to save would be lost forever.
     I   also  hoped  to  gain  access  to  the  military   radar
documentation,  although I knew this would be more difficult.  An
increasingly  close  and productive collaboration  had  developed
with  Lt. Col. De Brouwer and with Lt. Col. Billen, Chief of  the
Glons radar installation. They shared my profound conviction that
an in-depth study was required, both to understand better the UFO
phenomenon and to elucidate the mysterious phenomenon that I  had
discovered, probably of atmospheric origin.
     During  this stage of the investigation an  important  event
occurred.  I knew that the Belgian Air Force planned to  scramble
F-16  fighters  in  cases where UFO sightings  were  reported  by
reliable  eyewitnesses  with  additional  confirmation  by  other
evidence.  These  conditions seemed to have been met  during  the
night  of March 30-31, 1990. Although I was notified at an  early
stage,  I had to wait for the Air Force's preliminary  evaluation
of the data before learning anything more.
     For  my part, I kept Lt. Col. De Brouwer informed  about  my
research on the data from the Bertem radar. He saw the benefit of
checking  these  data against those from the  military  radar  at
Semmerzake.  I was accordingly authorized to go there and  obtain
extracts  from these tapes. The information regarding the  events
of  the night of March 30-31 remained inaccessible since  an  Air
Force investigation was underway, but we were making progress all
the  same.  The Semmerzake data were more accurate  and  detailed
than those I already had.
     Consequently,  I  was  able to compare  the  data  from  the
Semmerzake military radar with those from the Bertem civil radar,
whose echoes are instantaneously transmitted to Semmerzake.  They
are   subject   to   even  less  filtering  than   on   the   air
controllers' screens at Zaventem airport. I could thus  establish
the  coordinates  and other characteristics  of  each  individual
echo.  The  analysis  was  laborious  but  made  it  possible  to
decisively  confirm  the preliminary conclusions drawn  from  the
video films taken at Zaventem.
     After  the release of the Air Force report in the summer  of
1990, there were irrational reactions on the part of some  French
media.   Lt.  Col.  De  Brouwer  responded  by   supplying   more
information,  hoping to demonstrate that the situation  was  more
complex  and  better documented than many supposed, and  that  it
merited  further analysis. He resolutely followed an  open-minded
policy.  Some  journalists had labeled the  military  "The  Great
Mute"; by contrast, Lt. Col. De Brouwer maintained that "we  have
nothing to hide in this matter." I can attest to his deep honesty
and courage.
     After  talking  with a reporter from Paris  Match  (July  5,
1990,  issue), De Brouwer also allowed some members of SOBEPS  to
see an extract from the video film of the on-board radar from one
of  the  F-16s. The series of photos we were authorized  to  take
enabled me to make a preliminary assessment, and I realized  then
the   extremely  strange  nature  of  these  data.  Having   made
considerable  headway in interpreting some of the  initial  radar
data,  1 could see that the same explanation would not  work  for
these astonishing observations.
     In  order to go further, I needed the express permission  of
the  Minister of National Defense. Since my written  request  had
met with no response, probably because of bureaucratic inertia, I
decided  to telephone the Minister, Guy Coeme. His  response  was
almost  immediate: "I believe in openness." This was, I think,  a
historic attitude. In any event, it was an exemplary action, from
which other countries will soon, I hope, draw inspiration.
    After  this everything went like clockwork, albeit one  whose
hands  moved slowly. For instance, I received the data  from  the
Glons radar for the main events of March 30-31, 1990, on November
2, fully seven months later. The appropriate permissions had  all
been  granted,  but other military missions (in  particular,  the
Gulf  crisis  and  the intervention in  Rwanda)  took  precedence
compared  to  UFO  investigations. Still, there  can  be  a  real
advantage  to  letting  ideas  settle for  a  while.  At  present
thorough  studies are being undertaken in complete  collaboration
with an officer-engineer of the Belgian Air Force. I do not  wish
to  name  him  so  as to prevent him  from  being  besieged  with
inquiries.  The  conclusions of our study will be  published  but
only when this can be done in a responsible manner.

The fundamental results

     Almost  continually, radar screens show sporadic echoes  not
correlated  with  aircraft.  Radar operators  call  these  echoes
"angels"as  if  they  were  pure spirits.  For  them  the  echoes
constitute annoying "noise" and are ignored as much as  possible.
A priori they could just as easily be UFOs as natural  phenomena.
They  appear  only  occasionally, all over  the  screen.  An  air
traffic  controller cannot afford to waste time and attention  on
them. When I systematically recorded the positions in which these
"angels"  appeared,  however, I noted that they  often  moved  in
practically  straight  lines.  I have labeled  this  the  "flying
angels effect."
    The average speed of this movement is low relative to that of
aircraft (about 50 km//h). There are random fluctuations, but the
mean  speed is well-defined. The lines of motion are  of  limited
length, and their direction of motion is not correlated with  the
wind. Furthermore they can appear (perhaps even more often)  when
the sky is clear. The Semmerzake radar could locate the  physical
position of the radar returns. As the data accumulated, it became
evident that this phenomenon could not involve UFOs. It had to be
an  atmospheric problem, albeit a fairly special one,  since  the
radar  operators whom I consulted had not noticed this effect.  A
comprehensive  survey  of  the  literature  indicated  that  this
phenomenon  had  not  been  described  either.  I  have   finally
discovered an explanation based on known physical principles  and
on  some independent data. It will be described elsewhere when  I
have had time to verify it further. The "flying angels effect" is
undoubtedly of atmospheric origin.
    My  second main finding was that I found no  reliable  traces
associated with eyewitness accounts of UFO sightings, even when I
examined  the  traces over a wide range of times  and  places.  I
knew,  however,  that  there had been  previous  cases  of  radar
detection  of  UFOs.  The evidence in these  cases  seems  to  be
acceptable  (and  cannot  be explained  by  the  "flying  angels"
phenomenon). Given the lack of radar confirmation in Belgium,  it
would  be  easy  to put forward one or the  other  of  these  two
simplistic  hypotheses:  either the witnesses saw  nothing  of  a
material  nature,  or F-117 Stealth aircraft were  involved.  But
neither one nor the other hypothesis takes into account the whole
range  of  what was observed. The UFOs sighted  in  Belgium  were
usually  described  as  platforms, either  stationary  or  moving
horizontally.  This is sufficient to explain the low  probability
of detection by ground radars. The radar beams would be reflected
back as if by a horizontal mirror. The same technique is used for
the F-117A Stealth plane.
    On several occasions the UFOs had been described as having  a
vertical edge and a dome on top. Seen laterally or from above, as
from  an aircraft, radar detection might therefore be easier.  So
an F-16 might possibly detect a UFO of this kind, if the surfaces
were  not  made of radar-absorbent material.  This  presents  new
questions,  since  if UFOs are extraterrestrial,  why  are  their
shapes now different from previously reported objects? Could they
have adapted their craft's shape in order to evade our  detection
systems,  or  is it just a coincidence, resulting from  the  fact
that this batch of visitors come from somewhere else?
    As for the data from the F-16 on-board radar, which  operates
differently from ground radars and can record different kinds  of
data,  I  can  only  say,  for the  time  being,  that  they  are
astonishing. In particular, there are abrupt changes in speed  as
well as other strange features. This calls for a technical,  far-
reaching,  and careful study. We have made a start. I don't  know
what conclusion we will reach, nor when we shall reach it.

The views of Science & Vie

     With  a few rare exceptions, the French media's coverage  of
the  Belgian  UFO  sightings has not been  distinguished  by  its
objectivity.  Some writers did not hesitate to quite openly  make
fun of the "little Belgians" and their "tales " but we shall  see
who  laughs  last. What surprised me most was the fact  that  the
magazine  Science & Vie (Science & Life) had launched a  sort  of
anti-UFO  crusade. I have often admired this magazine's  articles
of scientific popularization. It has, in the past, taken a  clear
responsibility  for public's scientific education. It is all  the
more  deplorable,  then,  that  in  this  area  it  traffics   in
irrational,  unscientific polemics. The only advantage may be  to
document  the fact for future generations that at the end of  the
20th  Century  people reacted in this fashion, in  spite  of  the
lessons that they could have drawn from the history of science.
     When there is a conflict between a new kind of fact and  the
established  conceptual  framework,  people tend to  hang  on  to
preconceived  ideas. What does not fit in with the theories  that
are  regarded as unshakable is filtered out or repressed.  People
refuse to face reality. So far as UFOs are concerned, the  method
consists  of  selecting some facts that can be explained,  it  is
thought, in a conventional manner. Then it is believed that  this
result  can be extrapolated, without any effort's being  made  to
examine  the rest of the data. This leads to what can  be  termed
unwarranted generalizations.
     In its January 1990 issue (No. 868), Science & Vie showed no
hesitation  in discrediting all the Belgian eyewitnesses  on  the
basis  of  just  one photograph. This photo,  taken  near  Eupen,
showed a big luminous dot. The photographers submitted the  photo
to  SOBEPS, along with several others from the same  event.  Even
though  the  photo  had little to do  with  the  many  eyewitness
sightings,  it  could  have  been  given  an  detailed  analysis.
Instead,  the  editorial  team  of Science  &  Vie  preferred  an
unsupported   interpretation,   strongly  suggesting   that   all
eyewitness reports smacked of "poetry" or optical illusions.
    In the June issue (No. 813) the magazine provided information
about the F-I 17A Stealth aircraft. This sort of information  had
just  been  made public by the U.S. Air Force. The title  of  the
article-"The UFO: This Is It," showing an example of an F-  117A-
speaks  volumes  about  the  magazine's  commercial  rather  than
scientific   intentions.  Again,  it  insinuated  that  all   the
witnesses  must have been mistaken, like the Belgian  Air  Force.
The author of this article and everyone involved clearly felt  no
need  to  conduct on-the-spot inquiries in order to  obtain  more
information and acquire an objective view of the facts.
    The October issue (No. 877) of Science & Vie announced on its
first  page  that it was "on the track of the Belgian  UFOs."  In
fact, the author was concerned only with the events of March  30-
31,  1990,  and  the  involvement  of  the  Belgian  Air   Force.
Apparently he felt that this constituted the core of the  matter,
and that by debunking it he could dispose of the whole story.  He
considered  only  the  initial  reports,  which  contained   raw,
unanalyzed information. The author of the article is  intelligent
and  able,  but  his  method resembled  more  that  of  a  lawyer
defending a specific brief than that of a scientist  representing
the quest for truth. After the press conference given by Lt. Col.
De Brouwer, the F-I 17A hypothesis had been discredited, but that
need   be  no  obstacle;  plenty  of  other  hypotheses  can   be
constructed.
    Why  not suggest the existence of another secret plane,  with
all the capabilities necessary to explain the apparent paradoxes?
Perhaps  the  U.S. Air Force was testing this secret  plane  over
Belgium  without  notifying  the Belgian Air  Force  -a  friendly
nation  which uses American F- 16s. Does this seem  practical  or
likely? Consider that testing new planes inevitably involves  the
risk  of  an  accident  or  crash,  in  which  case  the  Belgian
authorities  would have to be notiFied to help protect  essential
secrets.
    Why not suggest that the Belgian police were so  unaccustomed
to seeing stars that they got all confused at the sight of  some?
Or,  above all, that there is no supporting evidence to  back  up
any of the Belgian sightings, even though there were more than  a
thousand reports and they went on for more than six months?
    Following this line of reasoning, everything is for the  best
in  the  "best  of  all  possible  worlds"  in  which  profounder
questions must not be asked.
   On  the contrary, it seems to me that it's always a good  idea
to  be guided by the Facts, especially when they are  unexpected.
What  thousands of witnesses have seen for many years  throughout
the world deserves serious study. I am not advocating a  specific
hypothesis, only asking people to open their eyes.

The witnesses' reactions

     Witnesses'  reactions are diverse, as might be expected.  In
most  cases people simply relate what has happened in  a  factual
manner, being explicit about what they have been able to  observe
and  confessing their perplexity. What now seems to me to be  new
and  significant is that many witnesses are annoyed at not  being
taken seriously.
    As regards the socio-psychological hypothesis, which explains
UFO sightings by the desire to make contact with extraterrestrial
beings,  I  do  not  believe that  this  is  compatible  with  my
experiences  interviewing a fairly sizable number  of  witnesses.
Naturally there are pathological and even psychiatric cases,  but
let  us  again refrain from unwarranted  extrapolations.  I  have
noted,  like  other investigators, that at the  outset  of  their
strange  sightings,  witnesses practically always try to  find  a
conventional  explanation; as they take in more details,  though,
the  conventional explanation no longer suffices.  This  reaction
violates a basic assumption of some "socio-psychologists."
    It is true that witnesses are quicker to think of a UFO after
the  media have told them other people have seen them,  and  they
report  sightings more readily once they know that  organizations
are   studying   UFO   reports  seriously.   Some   people   have
intentionally  scanned the skies, but they have  not  necessarily
seen anything.
    It  is  absolutely normal for someone to filter  and  analyze
sensory data on the basis of pre-existing conceptual models. What
happens  when  there is a discrepancy?  Some  witnesses  describe
extraordinary events, repeating that they do not believe in UFOs.
Perhaps  they're trying to reassure themselves,  perhaps  they're
afraid  of  seeming  insane  to  the  interviewers.  On   several
occasions  I  have met witnesses who, although accepting  the  ET
hypothesis,  are visibly upset about these "intruders."  Humanity
could be defenseless and dependent on the goodwill of an unknown,
technologically  very superior, external power. I have  met  only
one  witness  who told me in a confiding manner: "I  should  very
much like to meet them." He said this spontaneously when I  asked
him what he thought of his sighting.
    Reality  is  far less clear-cut than the  supporters  of  the
socio-psychological    hypothesis   imagine.    The    collective
unconscious  does  not, for the most part,  desire  contact  with
extraterrestrials. We cannot assume we are dealing with religious
beliefs,  either.  On  the contrary, it is clear  that  a  fairly
sizable  number of witnesses have no wish at all  to  communicate
what  they  have  observed. We know this  because  of  the  cases
discovered entirely by chance and long after the fact. The  1989-
90   Belgian  wave  encouraged  a  number  of  people   to   tell
investigators  about much earlier sightings. One man wrote to  me
describing  a sighting made during the mobilization before  World
War  II, when he was all alone on a road. He was so  excited  and
frightened by the experience that he told no one except his wife.
A  member  of  an embassy told me of a sighting  made  aboard  an
aircraft  with many other people. Afterwards, he asked me not  to
say  anything  about it to the other embassy  personnel,  saying,
"They'll think me crazy."
    The  fact  that  the UFOs reported here are  generally  of  a
different type from the traditional "saucer" is also significant.
If the witnesses had invented their accounts, they would probably
have tried to make them seem more believable by corresponding  to
the standard model. This is not what happened. One new feature is
that  the Belgian UFOs travel over cities at very low  altitudes.
Moreover,  there were no marked electromagnetic disturbances,  as
has often been reported in the past. These differences are  worth
considering  with a view to understanding the  technology  rather
than  simply assuming that the witnesses can't relate  accurately
what they've seen.

----- Cont in Meessen part 2 ------------------------------------


Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
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UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: INFO: Meessen - Belgian UFO Sightings 1989-90 part2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Sep 91 02:39:11 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2225 alt.conspiracy:7731 sci.skeptic:15718



----Meessen part 2 (conclusion) ---------------------------------


An enormous lozenge at Eupen

     Mr. J observed the same type of object twice. I heard of his
sightings  indirectly,  and  when I  telephoned  him,  he  firmly
insisted  on anonymity: "I don't want anyone to tell my  children
that  their  father  was out of his mind." He told  me  that  the
machine  he had seen was "incredibly large." This assessment  was
based  on  his first sighting, which was on December 1,  1989.  I
visited  him on January 15, five days after his second  sighting.
He  is  an amateur photographer and described the  UFO  with  the
precision of a careful observer.
   On the evening of December 1, he was going to take his wife to
a private exhibition organized by his club. At around 5 p.m.  two
of his five children, aged 14 and 15, had already told him  about
"strange  planes in the sky." After school they had been  playing
on  the  street  with  a Moroccan boy who lived  in  one  of  the
neighboring  houses. It was already growing dark and one  of  the
children said, "They're UFOs," using the German word for UFO. Mr.
J had replied, "Of course not, they must be planes."
    At  6:50  Mr.  J was ready to leave. He was  sitting  in  the
living room in his usual chair near a window that looks out on  a
terrace  at  the rear. At that moment one of  his  children  came
rushing  up  all  excited, saying, "Look,  they're  here  again!"
Struck  by his child's insistence, Mr. J rose and went  out  onto
the  terrace.  This forms, together with the garden, a  large  L-
shaped open space behind a cluster of houses. Mr. J saw the young
Moroccan,  who was at the back garden of his house, in the  other
branch  of L, pointing at the sky and stating, "See,  one's  just
coming."  Mr. J told me, "I don't understand how this  boy  could
say that so calmly, as if it was a commonplace remark, because  I
almost  fell over backwards when I looked up. I tell you that  if
you have not seen one, you cannot believe it. It was enormous."
    Mr. J then spontaneously set about drawing the object,  which
was lozenge-shaped, with two white lights at each corner and,  in
the  center,  a  kind of illuminated  bell  projecting  from  the
platform  (figure  1).  The surface of the object  was  dark  but
clearly  visible  against the brighter sky. It had been  a  sunny
day,  and the sky was perfectly clear. Stars were visible  around
the object. It glided slowly from southwest to northeast, without
the  slightest  sound.  It could be  followed  at  a  comfortable
walking pace. The large diagonal of the lozenge was perpendicular
to  the  direction of movement and was at least 35  meters  long.
During  my  visit  Mr. J went onto the terrace  to  show  me  his
reference  marks. The nearest end of the large diagonal had  been
directly  above  his house and the other end had passed  above  a
large  building 350 meters away. He was unable to  determine  the
altitude of the object, but he noticed that he could see the  sky
between the object and the building opposite. As a result he felt
that  the  object could have been even larger than  the  distance
between his house and the building.
     A  little  later on, Mr. J reported that  the  white  lights
flashed  off and on regularly. I asked him whether they did  this
at  the same time. He replied, "I don't know. I couldn't see  the
four  corners  simultaneously.  I had to crane  my  neck."  These
lights  were  circular and large. "The most  extraordinary  thing
about them was their power," he said. They illuminated the ground
with a white light. In the center of the lozenge was an "inverted
bell"  which  was wholly illuminated by an orange light.  At  the
bell's apex was a green light, darker than green traffic  lights.
The  skirt  of the bell was surrounded by a row  of  red  lights,
changing brightness sequentially. This gave a false impression of
revolving  lights. "These lights never completely went  out,  but
they grew distinctly brighter at certain moments."
    The  lights did not illuminate the underside of  the  object,
which  remained dark. The red lights "chased each other"  with  a
slow,  comfortable movement. "It wasn't an alarming  flash,  like
that  from  an ambulance or police car. It was even  pleasant  to
watch."  Mr.  J  also  remembered that  "the  luminous  bell  was
strange,  because you couldn't tell whether the light  came  from
its  interior or the surface." Since the witness was  an  amateur
photographer, he considered going to find his camera but realized
it was too big to capture adequately. Knowing that he had 100 ASA
film  loaded,  he gauged that the mass of the object,  which  was
almost  black,  would  not be made out on film  since  the  white
lights were too dazzling.
    He  did  what  he  could. "I tried to  remember  as  much  as
possible. I also called my wife and daughter so that someone from
my family could see it." Mrs. J did not see the object. She heard
her  husband but was in the bath. His daughter arrived after  the
object was already some way off, having passed over the roofs  of
the  houses. Mr. J went with her to the front, where they  stayed
long  enough  to  see the object leave, still at  a  fairly  slow
speed, passing over the Eupen cemetery.
     Mr.  J bitterly regrets not having taken photos. Since  then
he  has  been to Aix-la-Chapelle to buy infrared film,  which  he
keeps in the refrigerator. The young Moroccan came over while Mr.
J  was drawing his picture for me. He said, unasked,  "Yes,  it's
like  that." The vertical edge (on figure 1) was not  visible  on
December 1. Mr. J drew it based on his second sighting.
    This  second  sighting took place on Wednesday,  January  10,
1990, at about 1:35 p.m. It was dark. The witness, on his way  to
a  photo  club,  had  taken the E5  highway  after  reaching  the
Herbesthal road and was proceeding inland. He had gone only a few
kilometers  when  he saw a stationary object in the sky.  It  was
exactly  "the same model." Mr. J stopped his car on the  side  of
the  road.  Other drivers seemed not to notice  anything.  Mr.  J
leaned  on  the hood of his car, watching the  object  with  arms
crossed.  Everything was identical to the first sighting, but  on
this occasion the lozenge was oriented sideways, and he could see
it  had  a  constant and considerable height. It  was  about  500
meters  away.  Its lights seemed less bright this  time,  perhaps
because of the highway illumination.
    Mr.  J  was exasperated that he hadn't  brought  his  camera.
There  would probably be no point in returning home. After  10-15
minutes  the  object started to move off toward Fagnes.  It  left
slowly  and  silently. Just as it was  departing  the  luminosity
increased.  "It was as though the voltage of the lights had  been
intensified as it moved gently away."
    It may seem strange that Mr. J saw the same object twice.  It
should,  however, not be forgotten that the events of December  1
had  been  deeply  etched in his memory; as  a  consequence,  his
mental  "filters" would have been adjusted in such a way that  he
would more easily notice a similar object in the sky at night.  I
have no reason to doubt this eyewitness report. His sincerity and
spontaneity were evident. The witness had spoken with only a  few
people  and had learned to be cautious. "I have seen many  things
in my life," he said, "but when I talk about this, people look at
me oddly."

A UFO flies over Aix-la-Chapelle

     On  December  5  or 12, 1989, Mr. and Mrs.  O  were  driving
northward  on the Triererstrasse in the town of  Aix-la-Chapelle.
It was about 9:50 p.m. when they suddenly saw a flying object cut
across the road right in front of them. It moved steadily to  the
right.  It  had  two headlights in  front,  emitting  beams  that
slanted downwards. The light was white and intense without  being
blinding.  In  addition,  there  was  an  orange  light  on   the
underside, Dashing at the same rate as an ambulance's lights. Mr.
O  was  driving and had to pay attention to traffic, but  Mrs.  O
continued  to  observe what they still thought  was  an  aircraft
flying  exceptionally low. She kept it constantly in sight.  When
it had crossed the road, it extinguished its headlights, but  the
flashing orange light remained illuminated. This made it possible
to  see  that the object was describing a half-turn  on  a  tight
curve, heading back in the opposite direction.
    Mrs. O first saw it through the front right-hand window. Then
she turned around to look at it through the back rear window. The
object  approached again, passed over the car, and reappeared  in
the   front  left-hand  window.  It  had  cut  across  the   road
diagonally.  At a certain distance from the car,  its  headlights
came  on  again. Since the headlights were at the  front  of  the
object, they could no longer be seen directly, but the beams that
they emitted were visible. Unlike an aircraft, there were no rear
lights  or flashing red and green side-lights. All that could  be
seen  was  the flashing orange light, which  became  fainter  and
fainter as the craft went away.
    Mr. and Mrs. O returned to their home, near  Aix-la-Chapelle.
That  same evening, at 11:15 p.m., Mr. O stepped outside  to  let
the  dog out and noticed exactly the same object. It  was  flying
above  their  street,  in  the  direction  of  Stollberg.  Mr.  O
immediately called his wife. The headlight beams were less angled
than they had been before, but the machine was flying lower.  Its
motion  was  linear  and uniform, with a speed about  that  of  a
helicopter,  but  to the great astonishment of the  witnesses  it
made  no sound. Mrs. O was insistent about the absence of  noise,
for  conditions were such that she and her husband ought to  have
heard it had the craft been equipped with a motor.
    I  asked  them later about the apparent size of  the  object,
suggesting that a thumb held at arm's length might cover it.  The
immediate  response  was,  "No, it would have  required  a  whole
hand."  The sighting occurred fairly late, so the sky  was  dark.
The object stood out clearly against it, because it was  somewhat
brighter.  The witnesses saw an elongated shape, less  high  than
long,  with curved edges. The outlines were different from  those
of an aircraft or helicopter. The hypothesis of night gliders  or
ultralights is not very credible, particularly in the case of the
first sighting. The next day a police car passed down the street,
its   loud-speaker  requesting  those  who  had  seen   "anything
abnormal"  to  report it to them. Mr. and Mrs. O did not  do  so.
Were there other witnesses? They do not know, because they  don't
read  the  local paper. Mr. O, who is Japanese, subscribes  to  a
Cologne daily paper and the Financial Times.
    I  was alerted to this case by Mrs. O's sister, who lives  in
Eupen. The German police habitually ridicule UFO witnesses, so it
is not surprising that Mr. and Mrs. O didn't want to report their
sighting.  I  also conducted an inquiry into  a  close  encounter
involving  two German families living in Lontzen, in  Belgium  on
November 29. The children involved were frightened, so one of the
mothers  called  various places,  including  the  Aix-la-Chapelle
police.  She  told  me that they laughed at her  and  that  their
derisive response had shocked her.

A triangular UFO at Coblenz

     The  following  case was described in the  July-August  1990
issue of the Journal fur UFO-Forschung (Journal for UFO Research)
of  the  GEP  group (Society for the  Investigation  of  the  UFO
phenomenon), based in Ludencheid, Germany. The investigation  was
carried  out  by W. Kelch. This case is  interesting  in  itself,
since it involves the sighting of a triangle in another  country,
but it also has interesting psychological aspects. The  principal
witness, a 33-year-old woman, works at a military base and  seems
to have a solid character.
   The  sighting took place on the evening of February 21,  1990,
at 9:07 p.m., in Karthause, near Coblenz. The lady was  returning
home  by  car, accompanied by her mother (aged 69)  and  her  son
(aged  14),  who  had been to a judo lesson.  They  were  driving
through an attractive residential district on a fairly wide road.
To  the  right  was a continuous line of trees  15-18  meters  in
height, bordering a cemetery. The left-hand side of the road  was
fringed  with houses 20-25 meters high on a small  hill.  Through
traffic is virtually nil and, at this late stage of the  evening,
there was no residential traffic. In fact, no car went by  during
the  episode. The weather was cool and it was dark. The  sky  was
clear.
     The mother was the first to see two lights beaming  straight
down at them at a 45-degree angle (figure 2a). The object bearing
these lights slowed down, but the driver, fearing it might crash,
pulled to the right side of the road. There she stopped, with the
car  at  an  angle. The object stopped  above  the  road,  almost
directly  overhead. The driver switched off the  engine,  lowered
the  window  and looked out. She saw a large  triangular  object,
absolutely  stationary  and noiseless, at  rooftop  height.  From
other  reference  points it was possible to  determine  that  the
sides  of the triangle measured about 20 meters (figure 2b).  The
witnesses watched the object closely, but no one dared get out of
the car.
    Three  milky, yellowish-white lights were at the  corners  of
the triangle. They were bright but not blinding. In the center of
the triangle was a much larger light. Its color was changing  but
the  prevailing hue was grey-blue. These changes seemed to  imply
something revolving, reminding the witnesses of the mirror-globes
in discos. The witnesses said that "this light shone in a strange
way."  They saw only the lower side of the  triangular  platform.
The  object  had  a metallic appearance.  It  was  dark-gray  and
colorless,  with solid and sharp outlines The base  was  slightly
illuminated  by the lights on the object, allowing the  witnesses
to  observe  structures which they described  as  riveted  plates
(figure 2b).
    The  object  stayed overhead for two or  three  minutes  then
departed  suddenly in the direction of the houses. The driver  of
the car felt a breeze through her rolled-down window. The  object
accelerated  and  disappeared from view in less  than  a  second,
behind the roofs of the houses. It had arrived from the west, but
departed  towards the southwest. Its departure was speedier  than
that of a jet aircraft.
    The  witnesses  then  went home, and  the  woman  immediately
informed  her  husband, who was on nightshift. At  first  he  was
unwilling  to believe her story but finally, at  her  insistence,
called the local police. Although the police had not received any
other calls, they agreed to send a police squad to the area.  Her
husband also called the air-traffic sections at the Frankfurt and
Cologne-Wahn  airports. They responded that radar  detection  was
not  possible  at so low an altitude. The  three  witnesses  were
unable to sleep that night. The mother, feeling afraid, stayed in
her daughter's apartment.
    Later  on the wife tried to clear up the mystery on  her  own
initiative.  She found the address and telephone numbers  of  the
GEP,  who  sent  her  a questionnaire  which  she  completed  and
returned by mail. She succeeded in locating two other  witnesses.
Between  8:30 and 8:50 that same evening, a lady  saw  "something
bright   heading  quite  rapidly  towards  my  car,"   near   the
intersection of the A61 and A48 highways. Frightened, she braked.
Through  the  sunroof she saw a bus-shaped metallic  object  with
fairly  bright,  bluish lights. The object went  by  noiselessly,
disappearing  finally in the dark. A UFO was also seen by  a  30-
year-old  man,  just before 9:07 p.m., near the same  spot.  When
questioned,  however,  he distanced himself  from  the  incident,
saying, "Nobody's going to believe me anyway."
    When the GEP investigator contacted the police, they asserted
that  they could not recall having received any  telephone  calls
about UFOs and that they knew nothing of the matter. The lady and
her husband were annoyed by this denial. The investigator had the
impression that the wife was a down-to-earth sort of  individual.
He found no discrepancy between her account and the questionnaire
she  had completed. So far as the witness was concerned, she  had
seen an unidentified flying object.
    The  GEP tried to find a conventional explanation. A  balloon
was  ruled out because there had been a light east wind  and  the
object was first seen moving west to east. And how could it  have
turned around and left so fast? The police use BO-105 helicopters
to  patrol the highways for trucks, but this too was  ruled  out.
Could  it have been a military plane? There is in actual  fact  a
military  exercise  ground (Schmitenhohe)  two  kilometers  away,
where   German   and   NATO   forces   run   nocturnal   infrared
reconnaissance flights and other exercises. But that night  there
had been no exercises.
    In  Germany a CH-47 Chinook helicopter is often suggested  as
an  explanation for UFO reports. Such aircraft are  used  between
Mendig  and Mainz, but the flights take place almost  exclusively
during the day at a height of 800-1000 meters. Taken as a  whole,
the  evidence  in this case renders  that  explanation  unlikely.
Nevertheless,  the investigator thought it necessary to  consider
the  possibility that the three witnesses were in shock  and  had
perhaps  not heard the noise, having been paralyzed by fear.  The
investigator  thus concluded noncommittally that  "the  available
data  do not allow us to make an unambiguous identification as  a
known  flying  object."  You can make what you  like  about  this
statement.  Who  is  frightened?  The  witnesses  by  a  somewhat
hypothetical  helicopter,  or  the  investigator  by  social  and
psychological pressures?

A recent sighting in Switzerland

     This  event occurred on Sunday, October 14, 1990. The  Swiss
sighting was relayed to me by the witness, Mrs. Wengere, who  has
authorized   me  to  cite  her  name.  She  telephoned  me   from
Switzerland  and confirmed her account in writing. An  editor  by
profession,  she was clearly looking for people who would  listen
seriously  to  such  reports. She wrote to  a  Zurich  paper  and
personally collected various recent eyewitness reports a copy  of
which she sent me.
    On  the  evening of October 14 she and her  husband  were  on
their  way to a hospital to visit a friend. It was about 7  p.m.,
already  dark, with stars easily visible. The sky was  clear  and
there  was no wind. They were driving from Lostdorf, near  Olten,
toward  Zurich.  Mrs. Wengere spotted two  bright  white  lights.
They were motionless, a little to the left ahead of them, over  a
range of mountains. The couple could not see light beams but only
two large, luminous, perfectly round disks, surrounded by a light
atmospheric halo. The left-hand light was higher than the right.
    Mrs.  Wengere  at  first  thought  the  lights  must  be   on
transmission towers on the mountaintops, although they would have
to  have  been  erected recently since she had  never  seen  them
before.  There  was  still enough light in the  sky  for  her  to
observe  that there was nothing between the lights and the  range
of  mountains.  She  thus  deduced that  the  lights  had  to  be
supported  by  one  or two flying objects  whose  shape  was  not
discernible. She told her husband, "There's a UFO over there! "
    She  asked  him  to stop. He saw the  lights  and  could  not
explain  them  either, but he didn't stop because  there  was  no
parking space along the road and it would have been dangerous  to
stop  in the dark. The bright lights must have been of  excessive
dimensions  since  the  stars  appeared  minuscule  and  pale  in
comparison,  as did the lights of an approaching aircraft.  There
was  one approaching the UFO (figure 3a) at that very moment.  If
the  lights were at the same distance as the plane, each of  them
ought  to  have been almost as large as the  plane  itself.  Mrs.
Wengere  expected the object to react to the plane, but  at  that
moment she and her husband were passing a village and lost  sight
of the object. They even had to wait for a red traffic light.
    When  they  once  more  had a  clear  view,  the  lights  had
disappeared.  Mrs. Wengere was annoyed that her husband  had  not
stopped  when  she had asked him to. He exclaimed,  "Look,  there
they are again! " The lights were hanging a little higher in  the
sky,  above  the  mountains to the right of  the  road.  The  new
position  and the previous location formed an angle of about  100
degrees.  Since  the witnesses had not observed the  shift,  this
could have been another object entirely. In fact, they now  noted
a  third light, identical to the first two, a little to the  left
of the others. It was separated from them by a distance almost 10
times  as  large as the distance between the  other  two  lights,
which were still stationary.
    The third light was at first motionless, but after some  time
it shifted slowly towards the others with a linear uniform speed.
It  stopped after having covered two-thirds of the distance  that
separated it from them (figure 3b). The other two lights began to
move  together, as if they were joined, their diagonal  alignment
becoming  horizontal. The pair became smaller and  less  intense,
but at the same time two chains of red and green lights  appeared
joining  the  two.  The distance between them  grew  greater  and
eventually  the two lights disappeared, leaving only the red  and
green crown of light visible.
    The  third  light  also changed during this  time  it  became
fainter  and acquired its own oval crown of small red  and  green
lights.  The  vertical  axis  of the  ellipse  thus  formed  grew
gradually longer, but the second crown was smaller than the first
(figure  3c). The two witnesses thought that the chains of  light
were fixed to the sides of objects that were changing their tilt,
but  neither of them could actually see the objects. Followed  by
other  vehicles,  they  continued to drive on.  Mr.  Wengere  had
slowed down only slightly. The lights were lost once again behind
some houses, this time for good.
    The  Wengeres were already aware of the UFO phenomenon  as  a
result  of a previous sighting. On July 20, 1989, at  about  6:50
p.m., they had both been out in their garden. The sun was shining
and  the  sky was cloudless. Mrs. Wengere noticed  an  elongated,
silvery  object.  It moved like an aircraft, but  she  could  see
neither wings nor tail. It was simply cigar-shaped and completely
silent.  She  pointed  it out to her  husband,  who  was  equally
surprised.  Mrs. Wengere thought it so strange that  ten  minutes
later  she  telephoned the air-traffic control  at  Zurich-Kloten
airport. She learned that there had been no "official flight"  at
that  time  over  her home and that  nothing  abnormal  had  been
recorded on the radar screens.
    Mrs.  Wengere was unable to stop thinking about what she  had
seen  on  October 14. She remembered having read  about  a  large
number of sightings of UFOs in Belgium. On October 20 she decided
to  telephone the air traffic center at Zurich-Kloten.  They  had
seen  nothing  unusual  on their radars  during  the  evening  of
October  14, and no one else had reported a  similar  phenomenon.
The  man who answered the telephone said, "It must be an  optical
illusion due to some sort of reflection." He said this haughtily,
adding  that he received many telephone calls of this  kind,  but
that  they were almost always optical illusions.  This  indicates
that  there were other UFO reports, although the  explanation  he
offered was purely gratuitous.
    I  note that in the United States a photograph was  taken  on
May 26, 1988, near Southbury of a beautiful crown of  alternating
red, yellow and green lights against a black background. This  is
documented  by  a  magnificent slide that I  have  received  from
Philip  Imbrogno, co-author of the book Night Siege.  This  shows
that  one  must not treat each case in isolation as  if  it  were
unique,  but  search for correlations as has to be done  for  any
physical  phenomenon.  For  this reason we  must  not  focus  our
attention  solely  on the events of March 30-31,  1990,  whatever
their possible importance may eventually be.
    As  for  the "flying angels effect," which has  led  to  some
notable problems in atmospheric physics and useful knowledge  for
radar  operators,  this  discovery was  simply  a  by-product  of
rational study of the UFO problem. As such it underlines that  it
is worthwhile to look carefully at mysterious phenomena. I expect
that  the  thoroughness  and seriousness of our  study  of  radar
"noise" will help our credibility as we examine other aspects  of
the UFO phenomenon.

=END=

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
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From: [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: FILE: Codex.asc - Peruvian AF encounter with Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 15:32:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
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[e-mail] (Don Allen) says:

    (...lots of UFO nonsense deleted...)

> I think we're being played with, tested, poked and prodded just
> to see what we can do and are capable of doing. We are their
> guinea pigs.

I think Don has it right this time, except that he has not
correctly identified the tester and the testee.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Gravity Propulsion ??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 10:31:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Network News)
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Leonard Spani) writes:

> - one method of propulsion was to focus the gravity waves at a distant point
>   in space and "pull" that point towards the ship together by bending space.
>   When the gravity was turned off, space would "snap" back into position and
>   the ship would be in the new position. A new position that may be very,
>   very far from the original position.
> - Lazar claimed that ships using this drive mechanism could travel *much*
>   faster than the speed of light. (Although technically they wouldn't actually
>   *travel* from A to B, they would instantaneously "snap" from A to B and
>   their effective speed (distance/time) would be many times the speed of
>   light.)

    Surely though, a device capable of generating a gravity field
    so intense as to draw the craft towards a distant body in space
    would also affect the motion of bodies within an equal radius,
    and in all directions.  As the motion of the Earth and local
    planets has not been observed to have 'warped' in any way, then
    such a craft must focus it's wave generator on a *large* mass
    outside of our solar system and then travel from there to here
    by 'conventional' means.  Whatever they might be.


Sean Eaton, Mathematics, Kingston Poly, England.
Internet:   [e-mail]
JANET (UK): [e-mail]
UUCP:    ...!uunet!mcsun!ukc!uk.ac.king.titan!as_m332
    "I rather like walking in the English fog.. it's sort of mysterious"
                        -Susan Foreman
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From: [e-mail] (Bruce Barr)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 15:35:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Barry Merriman confesses
>
>>Personally, if I went into trance states and channeled "alter intelligences",
>>I'd be seriously worried that I was insane, or diseased, and the first thing I
>>would do is ask for some simple verification. If none is forthcoming, I'd
>>submit myself for pschological/medical tests immediately, to look for presence
>>of brain tumors or other disorders.
>
>>Really Don, its highly irresponsible for you to encourage the channeller to
>>continue, when this could be the manifestation of some severe mental or
>>physical disease that could be treated if caught early enough. It is well
>>known that various disorders manifest themselves as hearing voices, having
>>vivid hallucinations, etc, all which could be mistaken as some form of
>>"contact" with another intelligence, except for the fact that these contacts
>>contain no factual information unknown to the reciever.
>
>Barry I really want to express my thanks and gratitude for your confession.
>You do the churches, govt., education system and AMA proud!  You are
>responding precisely the way they programed you.  Beautiful!!!!  You see
>divine inspiration has always been a problem.  The churches had to stop divine
>inspiration because if one listens to their inner voice they will KNOW their
>connection to All That Is and will not be available to follow dogma.
>Consequently millions were burned at the stake for listening to their inner
>voice (divine inspiration).  Well the govts came along and cut a deal with the
>church.  Basically it was to use education as a way to get individuals afraid
>of and/or unconscious of divine inspiration,  by getting them to believe if
>they couldn t see it it didn t exist.  So they would be educated to go to a
>doctor if they noticed a inner voice.  Now how did doctors get in on the deal?
>Well if a person is divinly inspired they don t get sick,  so guess who would
>be out of business, non other but the AMA.  So I am sure the churches, govt.,
>schools, and the AMA are proud of you, you are a shining example of their work.

Up until this point you have made a point about pre-conditioning.  Not in the
best way possible, but within reasonable limits.

My Comment: I can't SEE a virus, but I can recognize the effects on my body.
If there is a possibility of communications from another higher (note lack
of ' '...) form of life through channeling, then some form of factual
information should be possible to send.  If not I question the communications
medium and/or the intellegence of the higher life form.  If it is really a
question of lack of terminology, surly a little study of glossaries could be
undertaken.  (Sorry for those not following this thread, this is refering to
another post.)

>BTW did you take a pay off to write that?   I wonder how many times you have
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Here you have crossed the line.  Period.
You have stated that you are not out to 'convert' anybody.  I assure you, at
this rate, you will not.

>been burned at the stake?  Would you be interested in doing some past life
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>work with me and find out?
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Please offer ANY historical evidence of ANY past life uncovered by ANYBODY
that is, of course, not explained by some 'tainting' of the person by
by normal knowledge of the historical events involved.  I will accept
any reasonable doubt that no tainting is involved.  I am just unaware of
any evidence.  Please show me I am wrong.

>
>
>Don Showen

Waiting expectantly,

Bruce Barr
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Jack Sinclair)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.:
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 17:42:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Waterloo
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
>      MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES
>                of the
>          Parapsychology Society Subcommittee
>                United Nations
>              New York, New York
>               October 15, 1990
>
>Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma
>Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich.
>All rights reserved. This message may be copied for the sole purpose
>of sharing it with others. No part of this message may be published,
>.....
>What this means for you and the direction for the world is that the
>window of time has been placed in the country of the United States of
>America. The mirror for this realization is found in the beloved
>capital city you call Washington, D.C. Have you never wondered, oh
>children, why the Washington Monument contains the pyramid on its
>structure? Have you never wondered why the great symbol of this same

No! The mother of all windows is located in Baghdad!!

;-)


--
Cutting the deficit? You mean slowing the rate at which Canada is financially
crippled, don't you?
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From: [e-mail] (David Wolfe)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 19:27:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] writes:

>Nikola Tesla had over 700 patents.  He is the man responsible for Alternating
>Current and radio being on this planet. He freely admitted he was getting
>assistance from higher, extraterrestrial intelligence.
[Tesla life story deleted]
>I doubt it.  The point is that maybe those of you who have a solid science
>background, have it as a foundation to receive and implement new technologies
>from higher intelligence.  All I am saying is that there is higher
>intelligence out there and maybe you can receive or are receiving it. If only
>you would stop screaming and believing - if it can t be seen it does not exist.
>Listen!

So you deny that any human could have thought of the things Einstein and Tesla
did without alien help? We are so puny and incompetent and our visualisation
capacities so limited we couldn't think of or do any of these things on our
own?

How about great works of art and music? The advent of phsychiatry? Were
Freud and Jung in contact with aliens? Was Andy Warhol Channeling? How
about philosophy, literature or religion? Was Gandhi an alien puppet?

I think you are the one who denies what you cannot understand:
Human creativity, insight and technical capacity.

-DaveW

>Don Showen
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin D. Quitt)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 19:19:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>... the Pleiadians are spiritual, metaphysical
>teachers and I consider what they teach to be among the highest quality of
>information I have encountered.

    Has anything they've presented to you been outside of current human
philsophy? That is, have you learned anything from them that couldn't or
hasn't come from a normal human mind? Would you give some (short)
examples? (email may be preferable)


>Nikola Tesla ... freely admitted he was getting
>assistance from higher, extraterrestrial intelligence.

    He did?  What's your source?


>when he was in school he presented
>his theory of alternating current and the professor spent the whole class
>period putting Tesla and the theory down.

    Where was this documented?


> Now lucky for us that Tesla was not
>a Skeptic and more interested in what his peers thought than truth, or we
>would be using Edisions DC power with a generating plant every few blocks.

    Wrongo boy!  He *was* a skeptic, and only believed what he had evidence
for.  A skeptic is the *one person* who will not be swayed by opinion.
--
 _
Kevin D. Quitt              srhqla!venus!kdq     [e-mail]
3D systems, inc.            26081 Avenue Hall    Valencia, CA 91355
VOICE [phone] x430   FAX [phone]

                96.37% of all statistics are made up.
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From: [e-mail] (Marc Quattromani)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 20:12:19 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Babb) writes:
>I hate to be a skeptic ;-), but has anyone mentioned that the Pleiadians claim
>to be from a star system whose age is measured in thousands of years (well,
>tens of thousands, maybe) while we lesser-advanced beings have taken millions
>of years to evolve to our current level?  Perhaps living on plasma planets
>is more conducive to rapid intellectual evolution?

Ah, but it's such a pretty group of stars, one that everyone can
immediately recognize. You wouldn't expect such advanced beings to be
from somthing as dull as a solar system with a dim little star such as
our own, one that's barely visible from adjacent solar systems, would
you?

You bring up a very good point although I believe the age of the stars
is in the tens of millions of years. Still very short but blue stars
don't last very long.

--
Marc Quattromani            Convex Computer Corporation
                    Richardson, Texas
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Michael McNulty)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Report on Sept. 29th NH MUFON conference
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 21:04:24 GMT
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I attended the all-day New Hampshire MUFON conference this past
Sunday, Sept. 29th.  Its big draw was that it was advertised as the
last, official, public appearnce of Betty Hill.  Generally speaking,
it was interesting, but there were definitely slow parts to it.
Admittedly, it may just be that I am more interested in some things
than others, but I found the entire morning session to be not
much more than filler.

Anyway, here's the line-up, along with my impressions:

First speaker: Head of the NH MUFON (sorry, I don't know his name) -
He presented some very vague, very general, very unsubstantiated
(to me, very uninteresting) reports of new sightings in the NH area.
He seemed to mention on every one of them (there were about 5 that he
keyed on) that they hadn't done much reserach or interviews on them
and that they needed help to flesh out the reports and/or to check
their veracity.  He was obviously only there because his state
MUFON was running the conference.

Actually, he did talk about one fairly interesting case that involved
the pilot of a small craft sighting a beam-of-light-in-a-fog-like
UFO and trying to tail it, with directions provided, when possible,
by the ground airport personnel.  He said that the ball of light
appeared on his wing at one point, but then "flew" away.  In addition
to the radar man (or air traffic controller or whatever he was)
spotting this on radar, there were four ground personnel who were out
messing with (maybe "parking") a landed plane.  They also saw this
going on and had no access to the communication between the pilot and
the tower, so their report is substantiation for the pilot.  As with
the rest of the newer NH cases, the NH MUFON director said that they
had a lot of stuff to go over and people to interview.

Second Speaker: (John?) Brandenberg - He spoke of his "Face on Mars"
theory, picture, and book that he was hawking.  He also spoke about
his "Rainbow Declaration".  For my tastes, he spent much too little
time on the face on Mars and much too much time on his Declaration.
He started out by droning on about how we have to stop thinking of
ourselves as Americans, or even earthlings, and start thinking of
ourselves as neighbors to these bazillions of other neighbors that we
have throughout the skies.  He seemed to be a very spiritual and
intense man.  His face on Mars portion was basically "Here's the
picture, any questions?".  He did say that they've found barricades
around the faces, so he seemed to hint that these faces (he always
spoke of them in the plural, but only showed the one biggie) were
placed there as sort of a monument or tribute.  He "showed" how much
we (earthlings, although he had a much better name for us than that -
"Solarians"?, "Terrarians"?  I don't remember.) facially resembled
the face on mars, the greys, and the Pleidians.  Unfortunatley, he
showed this by four stick figure drawings of each of the faces.  It
was pretty bad, but his premise was that while we may look a little
different, aren't we all part of one something underneath and inside.

His Rainbow Declaration was slightly interesting, but I've been with
stoned and drunk college college kids who came up with better "Live
and Let Live" treaties at 4 in the morning.  It seemed to basically
be a "You can come and be with us to learn, play, research, farm,
etc., but don't violate our rights and we will act reciprocally to
you."  He intended to use the United Nations Security Council as the
mediator in disputes.  I thought that he was being really
presumptuous talking about them not invading us, capturing us,
killing us, stealing from us, depriving us of rights that are
given by God, etc. when we have not been able to stop that from
happening in the tiniest corner of our own planet.  It was obviously
a very personally emotional statement for him, though, because by the
end of it, he had to choke back tears 3 or 4 times.  His voice
cracked, he stopped talking, took a deep breath, wiped his cheeks,
and then started up again.  As I said, it did nothing for me, but 10
or 12 people gave him a standing ovation when he finished, so it
obviously moved some poeple.

As an aside here, I remembered as I was typing the above paragraph
that he said that the rights that he spoke of are absolutely
installed by God and then he mentioned that the last two societies
that refused to believe that certain rights are given by God were the
Nazis and the Communists, and look at what happened to them.  As
someone who doesn't necessarily buy into the traditional "God"
scenario as described by Brandenberg, I was a little put off by
basically being compared to a Nazi or a Communist because of my
non-belief in his God premise.  That may very well have skewed my
impression of him and his declaration.


Lunch break - Chicken, not bad.

After lunch, the conference took off for me!


Third Speaker: Budd Hopkins - He was great!  He spoke of a lot of new
cases that were much like the cases of his with which we are already
familiar.  He was talking a lot more about cases involving children,
though; perhaps he is going more and more in this direction with his
research.  Having already read Budd's books, there was really nothing
newly startling here.  He said that almost all of the children that
he has talked to speak of being whisked away to some local playground
area and are instructed to show the other alien children who are
there watching (who look a little like earth children, but with
shocks of white hair and sort of severe features, not soft, childlike
ones) how to play.  The earth kids then use the swing, the slide, the
sandbox, etc., usually asking the leader if the other (alien) kids
can play with them, but the answer is always no, that they have to
watch.  The alien kids watch passively, with no emotion, but seem to
be paying very close attention.

Budd said, probably to answer the objection that he guides people
whom he has hypnotized to his already established abduction scenario,
that he has never hypnotized any of these children.  He basically
said that once you let them know that you believe that these aliens
are real, the kids will just naturally open up.

I used to be under the impression, though, that he was a "They are
bad aliens, so watch your ass." theorist, but he seems to have
evolved into a more "They are impersonal, impassioned aliens, here to
learn from us things like how we play, how we relate to one another,
our emotions, our bodily functions, etc."  The meanness of the aliens
that I thought I had picked up in his books was replaced with a sense
that they're just here trying to learn things and are going about it
in ways that perhaps hurt or inconvenience us, but that is not their
intent.  I was very impressed with Budd.  Even with Betty Hill's
appearance, Budd was the star for me.

Fourth Speaker: Stanton Friedman - He spoke mostly of The New Mexico
crashes, the alien bodies "captured" (4 bodies - 2 definitely dead,
1 maybe dead or very close, and one absolutely alive) and Betty
Hill's star map.  I could have done with a lot less of his star map
interpretation; it got very technical and the history of how it was
eventually solved got a bit long-winded (like this post, I just
realized, so I'll try to keep the rest short).  He had a lot of stuff
to say, and I felt that he overdetailed almost everything in his talk
in order to make himself skeptic-proof.  I think that since he has
been doing this for a long time, he also tends to cram a million
things in at once, thereby clouding some issues.  He just sort of
mentioned off-hand about the the captured aliens, for instance, but
must have spent 20 minutes showing star maps that were rejected in
the Betty Hill star map discovery.  I liked him, but he needed to
focus more on a single topic.

Fifth Speaker: Betty Hill - I had never seen her before, so this was
really a treat for me.  But some of the stuff that she was saying
would have prompted her to get the hook if she wasn't the Grande Dame
of UFOs.  I do think that she was a very witty and engaging speaker
who bought into no particular theory of what, why, or how.  When
asked why they are visiting us, she would basically say "Damned if I
know.".  I liked that in her a lot.  She was just saying what
happened.  She left all of the speculating to everyone else and she
obviously didn't feel pressured to come up with a "reason" for why
this stuff happens.

First, she said that she would fill in some of the spots that have
been left open from the book and movie.  She has obviously done this
a million times, so I think she could do it in her sleep.  I didn't
notice anything filling any gaps, except that she said that a few
days after the (either the abduction or the hypnosis sessions that
revealed the abductions - sorry, I don't rememeber which), she and
Barney returned to her house and there, right in the middle of her
kitchen table, in a pile of leaves, dirt, and sticks were the
earrings that she had been wearing when she was abducted.  She had
forgotten that she was even wearing any, so she neever missed them.
She put them in her jewelry box, and has never worn them again.  She
didn't say how they got back at her house.  Also, the "dust spots"
that appeared on her dress (which she brought with her) had been
sent out to many laboratories for analysis, but the stuff could never
be indentified.

She brought a sculpture of the aliens, that she said she always
travelled with.  She calls him "Junior".

Then, for her last 15 minutes or so, she got the crowd in a serious
buzz, but sort of lost me.  She basically said "And I have seen
thousands of UFOs since the abduction."  She said that just last
Friday she and 2 friends were out watching the skies and saw 45
of them!  She just said this as though it were no big deal.  She said
that she has a favorite place (in Portsmouth, NH, where she lives and
also where this conference was) that she sees them all the time.
Constantly - she gave the impression that they are never not there!
And she said that she sees them in groups of 10, 20, 30, 40, 50,
(you name it) at a time!  She showed us about 50 slides of pictures
that she had taken, most of which were just lights, although some
seemed to have a shape, and said that she sees them landing all the
time, too.  She told us that her friends and relatives also have seen
hundreds of them and that it's no big deal.  If a small UFO is sort
of in their way on the road, they just beep the car horn, wave, it
moves, and they keep on driving.  What she was saying was absolutely
mind-boggling!  She said that she also has film of them landing.  She
also said that you should never touch one that's the size of the
table that was in front of her.  (I'm guessing that it was about 4
ft. X 4 ft.)  If you do, it will burn you right through your clothes.
Again, this was being said with the casualness of someone saying
"Have you got the time?"  I was actually laughing by the end of it
because it was so much to swallow.  Like I said, I think that if this
was not Betty Hill giving her final public declarations, she might
have been booed, or laughed, off of the stage.  (If Ed Walters, for
instance, had said all this stuff, he probably would have needeed
police protection to get out of the room alive.)  I never got the
impression that she was lying or confused or anything like that.  I
think she was telling us the absolute truth, as she sees it.  But it
still was unbelievable to me that the impression was that if you
DON'T see hundreds of these a week, you must have your eyes closed.

Sorry to make this posting so long.  I got carried away, but the
conference had a lot of good, interesting, humorous stuff that I
thought people might be interested in.  Another really interesting
part of all of this is that all of the speakers, with the exception
of Betty Hill, had a table and were hawking their stuff, so you could
speak to them.  I spoke to Budd for about a minute, bought a report
of his and he autographed it for me.

I think they intend to have another conferenec next Sept.

Mike
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From: [e-mail] (Morphina Del Fleur)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.:
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 20:29:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Morphina Del Fleur)
Organization: Nova University, Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Lines: 4
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:7023 alt.alien.visitors:2234 alt.paranormal:3222

Bwahahahahahahaha!!


Shouldn't this be in alt.humor?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: For the Person seeking books on the Pyramids
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 23:24:13 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 18

I am not sure I am in the right newsgroup, but I *thought*
someone wrote in seeking information for pyramid books
(or something to that effect).

If you are out there, pls. email me privately...there is
a book you might wish to check out:

"Initiation in the Great Pyramid" by Earlyne Chaney,
available from:  Astara, 800 W. Arrow Highway, Upland, CA 91786.

Kathy
"..when the candidate seeks to overcome the desires of the Earth plane,
he immediately finds the karma of his past rising to confront him,
to challenge his quest for wisdom.  Such a confrontation often
creates panic and confusion.  Your decision to enter the battle symbolizes
your will and wisdom in overcoming."

    --Earlyne Chaney, "Initiation in the Great Pyramid"
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From: [e-mail] (Mark Francis Stramaglia)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Event 9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Oct 91 00:17:53 GMT
Organization: Senior, Art, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 289



The event began at 26/1740 UT in response to the X2/2B flare from Region
6805 on the 1st. Activity was elevated during the first week of the
month as Region 6757 (N22, L=246) dominated the scene. This active
center grew from a simple
bipolar group of only 10 millionths of the solar hemisphere when first
observed, to a large, magnetically complex area measuring 1050
millionths six days later. It produced numerous moderate level gravity
field flares and two major events temporarily fooled by a formation
fly-over by aircraft during this time. There was no mention of anything
that could not be explained by (say) one or more helicopters suspending
a giant wing-shaped balloon with navigation lights on it with a very
long wire. And witnesses reported helicopters - dark blue ones,
California military style.

There was considerable geomagnetic activity. The levels observed during
October were generally active. 12 and 19 October were the two most
disturbed days. Only one satellite level proton event was observed
during the month. The event reached a maximum of 240 pfu at greater than
10 MeV at 27/1830 UT and ended at 28/2005 UT. A report was filed with
the police department of Hardyston, New Jersey.

The witness, then 8 years old, saw an object hovering over the mountain
near his Lake Womparack home. When the object kept hovering for about
five minutes, he went hiking into a nearby woods that lie near multiple
military installations.  He entered a circular clearing, on the
perimeter of which tree bark was scraped and hanging. At some point,
from overhead a shadow became apparent, and the boy discovered a 60 foot
giant wing-shaped balloon with navigation lights on it 300 feet overhead
with a high-pitched humming. He watched the object for about 15-20
minutes through a telescope as it traveled slowly thru the sky at the
same speed as the stars around it and then disappeared behind some trees.

    "It was a streak of green at an angle with a cut out square at the
bottom           center. There were lights below it, but they did not
move. It was pulsing. I    thought it was a helicopter. It looked like
the top light was pulsing. It seemed    very thin"
   "the object appeared stationary to the naked eye, but the telescope
showed it       was moving slowly. I have never seen anything like that
before. It was definitely not an airplane."

The object descended while the witness felt an electrical tingling, then
he experienced a magnetopause crossing between 1500 and 1630 UT. When he
returned home, he could not account for six hours. Associated with the
event was a 10 cm radio burst measuring 2100 sfu which was followed by a
strong type IV radio sweep.

Nater Zamor of the National Science Service, when questioned, stated that
the weather on the morning of October 9 was extremely clear, and the sighting
might have been a weather satellite. The disturbance lacked a
well-defined solar source but has recurred, to varying degrees, over the
last five solar rotations. Eruptive filament activity may have been a
possible contributor. No further information has materialized since the
October sighting.

This sighting took place on October 9, 1990, at 2:30 am, near Lake
Womparack. An X2/2B flare erupted from this area at 25/0115 UT.


   Theory 1: They may have been testing the radar effects of one method
of propulsion using a magnet drive mechanism. Dr. Lazezear claimed that
ships could travel *much* faster than the speed of light. (Although
technically they wouldn't actually *travel* from A to B, they would
instantaneously "snap" from A to B and their effective speed
(distance/time) would be many times the speed of light.) Surely though,
a device capable of generating a gravity field so intense as to draw the
craft towards a distant body in space would also affect the motion of
bodies within an equal radius, and in all directions. The gravity waves
at a distant point in space may be very, very far from the original
position.

   Theory 2: While both periods recorded a total of 35 energetic events,
only 4 observed in October were classified as major. This level of
geomagnetic activity has not been generally recorded over an affluent
population. The best prognosis is that when the gravity was turned off,
space would "snap" back together by bending and the owner of the ship
would be in the new position. As the motion of the Earth and local
planets has not been observed to have 'warped' in any way, then such a
craft must focus it's wave generator on a *large* mass outside of our
solar system and then travel from there to here by 'conventional' means.


A type IV radio sweep signature produced this radio burst at 10 cm
measured only at 370 sfu:

begin
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M"J?V!_%\)P=SRO$LC@3C#@BG[L1FC?)D#.]JJE723PF=B/<:)?A:C?6X:IA(
MK^V<K0GP9"NL>D^8""1:? W,Z.2T8&N33L_V'&KTQ!!'4"FY_G 0";$0#?$0
M$3$1%7$1&;$1'?$1(3$2)7$2*;$2+?$2,3$3-7$3.;$3/?$303$417$42;$4
33?$443$557$56;$573'<"@  .[$2

end

The major events consisted of an X1/2B a gravity field flare at 02/0318
UT, and an M7/2B flare at 03/2241 UT. The disturbance also lacked a
difinitive source, however unsettled conditions for solar activity
dominated the mid-latitudes during the period of 23-30 October. This
lull was broken however, by the rapid emergence of a new gravity field
flux from the southeast quadrant of the disk just after northeast limb
transit. Region 6786 (S10, L=021) produced an M6/1B gravity field flare
at 16/0621 UT. Additional moderate activity was attributed to this area
on the 22nd and 24th.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!drwho
From: [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.:
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 23:49:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 32
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:7025 alt.alien.visitors:2237 alt.paranormal:3223

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
>      MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES
>                of the
>          Parapsychology Society Subcommittee
>                United Nations
>              New York, New York
>               October 15, 1990
>
>Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma
>Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich.
>All rights reserved. This message may be copied for the sole purpose
>of sharing it with others. No part of this message may be published,
>printed, transmitted, stored in a retrieval system, or translated into
>any other human language without the express permission of The Alpha
>Connection, Inc., Suite 204, 7410 Montgomery Blvd., NE, Albuquerque,
>NM 87109.

Just one question:  if this is a message of great importance to the whole of
mankind, why the copyright?  Copyrights are given to works of creativity.
Surely Dr. Milanovich didn't make up... oooohhhhh!!!  Now I understand.  Sorry.

"Aristotle... was the first to base his description of the world not on
theory, but on what he actually observed around him.  Today, this idea seems
obvious; it strikes us as strange that nobody had ever thought of it before.
And even stranger that nobody has ever thought of it since."
                    --Tom Weller, CVLTVRE MADE STVPID

--E.V.L. ([e-mail])        #
Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely    #
devastatingly true, except the bits #
that are lies."  --Douglas Adams    #
Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gravity Propulsion ??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 22:49:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 59

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
|> (Leonard Spani) writes:
|>
|> > - one method of propulsion was to focus the gravity waves at a distant point
|> >   in space and "pull" that point towards the ship together by bending space.
|> >   When the gravity was turned off, space would "snap" back into position and
|> >   the ship would be in the new position. A new position that may be very,
|> >   very far from the original position.
|> > - Lazar claimed that ships using this drive mechanism could travel *much*
|> >   faster than the speed of light. (Although technically they wouldn't actually
|> >   *travel* from A to B, they would instantaneously "snap" from A to B and
|> >   their effective speed (distance/time) would be many times the speed of
|> >   light.)
|>
|>     Surely though, a device capable of generating a gravity field
|>     so intense as to draw the craft towards a distant body in space
|>     would also affect the motion of bodies within an equal radius,
|>     and in all directions.  As the motion of the Earth and local
|>     planets has not been observed to have 'warped' in any way, then
|>     such a craft must focus it's wave generator on a *large* mass
|>     outside of our solar system and then travel from there to here
|>     by 'conventional' means.  Whatever they might be.
|>
|>
|> Sean Eaton, Mathematics, Kingston Poly, England.
...


I believe the gravity waves were said to be "focused" at a particular
point in space rather than allowing the waves to spread out. To be
honest I don't know what he (Lazar) meant by "focused". As an analogy
I can imagine the gravity waves focussed similar to the way a magnifying
glass focusses light, but my physics is too weak to justify the analogy.

Lazar did mention another mode of travel that he said was primarily
used for terrestrial travel (as opposed to extraterrestrial travel).
I don't have my references with me, but the other mode of travel involved
the generation of a gravity wave that was out of phase with the Earth's
gravity. The craft would then "ride" the gravity wave in a manner
similar to the way surfers ride a water wave. I remember him saying
something about this mode of travel being more suitable for travel when
in a strong gravitational field (like a planet's), but that this manner
of travel was somewhat inaccurate (dangerous?) and caused a flittering,
"falling leaf" motion when in flight. The space "warping" method of travel
would cause a "jumpy" discontinuous flight. I don't believe any of these
wierd flight patterns could actually be felt inside the craft, but could
be observed from outside.


Leonard.



--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail] |       \\?!//         | t                    |
***********************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!pacbell!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Summary: New information
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Oct 91 03:34:38 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 142
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2239 sci.skeptic:15771 sci.astro:11727 misc.headlines:18339 alt.paranormal:3224 alt.conspiracy:7756
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra


 *************************************************************************
 * I share this with you in the hopes that the more people that know the *
 *         truth, that the truth will be known by more people.           *
 *************************************************************************

I recently attended the Whole Life Expo in San Jose.  Richard Hoagland took
part in two talks and one panel discussion, which he moderated.  He indicated
that he was now revealing information that he had never before revealed.  I
share with you my notes.  I present this with the knowledge that in order
to fully understand this material; in order to be able to corroborate or
disprove what he claims, you must first review the evidence that he presents.
This which I state should be obvious but, as I have woefully discovered, many
readers of this will jump to conclusions before doing their homework.  I
apologize for any redundancy and pray you will forgive my incompleteness.
Any discrepancies are most likely my misunderstanding rather than Richard's
information.

There is a new paradigm of man`s origins currently evolving in our
consciousness on this planet.  Up until now, we have had 2 choices:
Creationism (whatever the Bible says has to be true) and Evolution (Darwinism:
we evolved out of some primordial soup).  This new paradigm, as the Sumerians
of Sitchen indicated, is that we came from the Heavens (meaning other planets
in other star systems), a sort of extra-galactic Darwinism.  Richard used
phrases like: "... mitocondrial DNA scientists ..." "  and "... self-reflective
dimensional expansion" to describe this idea.  Using the photographs from the
Mars mission, with 150 foot per pixel resolution, and using techno-hacker
wizardry, he shows that we are in the process of matriculating into racial
maturity.  He has created a gorgeous video (currently available) created from
the stills of the Mars mission and made into three dimensional fly-bys of
the face, the pyramids and the city.  He quotes Zechariah Sitchen "someone
is meddling ...".

In order to completely realize the possible truth of the material presented
in his discussions, you should understand tetrahedral geometry and it's
associated simple trigonometry.  Tetrahedral geometry only works with a
360 degree system with 60 minutes of arc and 60 seconds per minute.  In
addition, 12 is a fundamental aspect of this system.  Richard Hoagland used
two universal constants and their ratio, in order to substantiate his claims.
These two numbers are pi (3.14) and e, the base of natural logarithms
(2.72), and the resulting ratio: e/pi ~= 0.865.

For instance. it you take the slope of the Great Pyramid in Egypt, and
divide it by the 60 degrees, it's top angle, you get 0.865.  This is
replicated for the pyramids on Mars.  Through tetrahedral geometry, he shows
how we are converging on an Universal Geometry.  Tetrahedral geometry is what
we have in a 360 degree circle and that which gives us 24 hours in a day,
both with with 60 minutes and 60 seconds.  Whoever built the  Egyptian
pyramid, had the same knowledge as whoever it was that built the face and the
city on Mars.  The Martians used a 360 degree system.  Sitchen shows that
the ancient Sumerians (c. 8500 BC) used the 360 degree system and counted
minutes and degrees of arc by 60's, just like the Martians.  The Martian year
is equivalent to 687 Earth days. The Fibonacci spiral is a tetrahedral
mathematic.  Follow the numbers and follow the logic.....

The Egyptian Pyramids are made of  calcium carbonate which has an internal
structure that is exactly like the structure of the pyramid (in Egypt) itself.
There are 20,000 books written on the Egyptian pyramids.  It is located 5' 30"
of direct North.  This is caused by tektonic plate movements (otherwise it
would be direct north).  The plate that it sits on moves an approximate
maximum of 1' arc every 45,000 years.  This means that it would take about
247,000 years to get to it's present position.  The mean arc location is 4'
which gives about 180,000 years or, an estimation that the pyramids in Egypt
were REALLY build about 214,000 years ago (give or take).  The pyramids (in
Egypt) were weathered by water, not wind.  This is an intentional
misinterpretation by scholars so as not to get into trouble with their
colleagues and not challenge western religions.  The Sphinx dates to a time
to before when the Sahara was desert.

The land forms found on Mars are NOT those done by Nature.  The angles formed
by the pyramids are impossible for nature to create.  There are too many
variations on the e/pi constant.  Even the latitude on Mars where the city/
face/pyramid are found is a function of e/pi.  He spent several hours creating
an exquisite mathematical trail showing that the pyramid on Mars, the
pyramid at Gizeh and, co-equivalently, the Sphinx in Egypt, are all more than
200,000 years old.  More specifically, about 217,000 +/-  15,000 years.  It
is impossible for me to go into all the details, but he had people from 3
different professions, all working independently and unknown to the others,
who had all come to the same conclusions in regards to the age of the Egyptian
pyramids.  The D & M pyramid (on Mars) is self-referential (it knows where it
is).  It is located at 30 degree North latitude just like the Egyptian pyramid
on Earth..

Mars has two carbon moons.  The planet Mars does not contain this carbon.  The
moons appear to be asteriods that the Martians, using technology that is
available to us today, moved into Martian orbit and, apparently, to mine.
The two moons are in perfect circular orbits around Mars.  Phobos is spiraling
inward toward Mars.  The density of Phobos is 1.95 which means that 30% is
missing, or hollowed out, or mined.  Richard believes that the Soviets covered
up the truth of this by saying that it was a UFO that grabbed up their
spacecraft and by so doing, knew that the mainstream press would not touch
the story.  The Russians probably have close up photos of extraterrestrial
artifacts (a Martain monkey wrench?) and Marina Popovich went around the world
and spread false rumors to put the nail in the coffin in order to cover-up
the Truth.  The Phobos orbit is 20 Km off true circular, due to it's decaying
orbit.  If it were circular to begin with, it would have taken 217,000 years
to cause it to be off course at it's present rate.  Something disruptive
happened on Mars at that time (217,000 years ago).  Something attacked the
city there.  The Egyptian word for Shinx means, the ending, inferring
an ending of one thing (Martain civilization) -- a beginning somewhere else
(planet Earth).

He speaks of the Nephalim, "Those who were cast down", or "Giants" and by
so indicating he infers that there was a war of some sort on Mars about
about 217,000 years ago and that they `escaped' to planet Earth.

The ratio of the Earth to it's moon is .272.  The moon takes 27.32 (Earth)
days to orbit the Earth.  It should be 27.2.  If we interpolate the difference
and how much the Earth's moon is moving away, we get 200,000 years ago for
our moon to be the 27.2 he speaks of.  Was OUR moon put there by
extraterrestrials that escaped to this planet to mine? Will we find
extraterrestrial artifacts on our own moon? (Maybe we already have?)

Carl Sagan and Richard Hoagland used to be friends.  In public, Sagan says
that this information is nonsense, but in private, he says something quite
different.

Richard indicated that he will read anything that will bring him even 1
data point closer to the Truth.

Original cassette tapes of the above may be obtained from the Whole Life
Expo tape people (email me for the number).

Video tapes of the above presentations, and more information on this may be
obtained from Richard Hoagland's organization, The Mars Mission (they publish a
quarterly journal entitled Martian Horizons) from:

    The Mars Mission
    P.O. Box 123
    Danville, CA 94526-0123

  ***************************************************************************
 *  COMING NEXT:  My discussions with Wendelle Stevens regarding Grey        *
 *         aliens from the Reticulum Star cluster and his playing of a       *
 *         cassette tape of the sounds of one of their space ships.          *
  ***************************************************************************

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!generic.physics.utoronto.ca!julian!julian.uwo.ca!ersmith
From: [e-mail] (Eric Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Oct 91 07:14:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: University of Western Ontario, London, Ont.
Lines: 225
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2240 sci.skeptic:15773 sci.astro:11729 misc.headlines:18342 alt.paranormal:3226 alt.conspiracy:7757

[ Please follow up to sci.skeptic, since this is a skeptical kind of
  post... ]

I am a mathematician, and there are a number of mathematical
statements made in the article which I find, shall we say, dubious. I
don't claim infallibility, though, so perhaps Mr. Jones (or others)
can enlighten me...

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
> * I share this with you in the hopes that the more people that know the *
> *         truth, that the truth will be known by more people.           *

(Hmmm... this would seem to be a slightly ungrammatical tautology. Are
tautologies considered profound these days?)

>There is a new paradigm of man`s origins currently evolving in our
>consciousness on this planet.  Up until now, we have had 2 choices:
>Creationism (whatever the Bible says has to be true) and Evolution (Darwinism:
>we evolved out of some primordial soup).  This new paradigm, as the Sumerians
>of Sitchen indicated, is that we came from the Heavens (meaning other planets
>in other star systems), a sort of extra-galactic Darwinism.

I don't think this is a particularly new idea; I think that Fred Hoyle
suggested something similar back in the 1940's (namely that life on
Earth arose from extraterrestrial spores). Many people might also refer
to this theory as "begging the question", since it still leaves
unresolved the question of how life arose on the other planets.

(How can a paradigm "evolve" in the "consciousness on this planet"?
Is this a fancy (read: deliberately obscure) way of saying that the
idea is catching on?)

>  Richard used
>phrases like: "... mitocondrial DNA scientists ..." "  and "... self-reflective
>dimensional expansion" to describe this idea.

I think I know what "mitochondrial DNA scientists" are, but I'd like to
know what this has to do with our origins. As I recall, the
mitochondrial DNA is just "along for the ride" with the nuclear DNA,
which is what really determines our characteristics. But I'm not a
biologist, and any clarification of this would be welcome.

Also, I'm afraid I can't understand "self-reflective dimensional
expansion", or what it has to do with the idea of extraterrestrial
life, at all. It *sounds* like some random impressive sounding words
thrown together to make pseudo-scientific gobbledegook, but I'm sure
that's just my ignorance showing :-).

>  Using the photographs from the
>Mars mission, with 150 foot per pixel resolution, and using techno-hacker
>wizardry, he shows that we are in the process of matriculating into racial
>maturity.               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 ^^^^^^^^

(I know this may be a silly question, but why must all revealed
wisdom be couched in such obscure language? What's wrong with "we are,
as a race, growing up"?)

>
> [ special effects deleted ]
>
>In order to completely realize the possible truth of the material presented
>in his discussions, you should understand tetrahedral geometry and it's
>associated simple trigonometry.  Tetrahedral geometry only works with a
>360 degree system with 60 minutes of arc and 60 seconds per minute.

I must read up on "tetrahedral geometry". All the geometries I know of
are independent of the choice of units. Could you provide a reference,
please?
(I tried looking for "tetrahedral geometry" in _Modern_Geometries_ by
James R. Smart, but it wasn't there.)

>  In
>addition, 12 is a fundamental aspect of this system.

Hmmm... why is this? Is it because the symmetry group of a tetrahedron
has 12 elements? But what does this have to do with the Great Pyramid,
which is *not* a tetrahedron? (the former has a square base, the
latter an equilateral triangle).

>  Richard Hoagland used
>two universal constants and their ratio, in order to substantiate his claims.
>These two numbers are pi (3.14) and e, the base of natural logarithms
>(2.72), and the resulting ratio: e/pi ~= 0.865.
>For instance. it you take the slope of the Great Pyramid in Egypt, and
>divide it by the 60 degrees, it's top angle, you get 0.865.

But do you actually get e/pi (which, being irrational, is *not* equal
to 0.865)?

>Through tetrahedral geometry, he shows
>how we are converging on an Universal Geometry.

A "Universal Geometry" would, a priori, have to be independent of the
measuring system; you claimed above that it was tied to a particular
set of units. Moreover, "Universal Geometry" is meaningless; different
spaces have different geometries. (I do know something about this,
since I'm a mathematician.)

>  Tetrahedral geometry is what
>we have in a 360 degree circle and that which gives us 24 hours in a day,
>both with with 60 minutes and 60 seconds.

The symmetry group of a tetrahedron (or pyramid) is finite (there are
only a finite number of ways of turning it so that it still looks the
same and has the same orientation); the symmetry group of a circle is
infinite (we can rotate a circle by any arbitrary amount and it still
looks the same). Clearly tetrahedral geometry is *not* what we have in
a 360 degree circle.

>The Martian year  is equivalent to 687 Earth days.

What does this have to do with anything?

>The Fibonacci spiral is a tetrahedral  mathematic.

How is the Fibonacci spiral connected with tetrahedra?

>  Follow the numbers and follow the logic.....

(I haven't seen any logic so far, just some random numbers thrown
around.)

>There are 20,000 books written on the Egyptian pyramids.  It is located 5' 30"
>of direct North.  This is caused by tektonic plate movements (otherwise it
>would be direct north).  The plate that it sits on moves an approximate
>maximum of 1' arc every 45,000 years.  This means that it would take about
>247,000 years to get to it's present position.

How do we know that it originally faced directly North? Maybe the
Egyptians weren't perfect? (Plus: what is "North"? As defined by the
magnetic pole, or the real North Pole?)

>  The mean arc location is 4'
>which gives about 180,000 years or, an estimation that the pyramids in Egypt
>were REALLY build about 214,000 years ago (give or take).

If one method gives an age of 180,000 years, and another method gives
an age of 247,000 years, then there's a contradiction -- one or both
of them must be wrong. To average the two numbers and get 214,000 is
thus meaningless.

>  The pyramids (in
>Egypt) were weathered by water, not wind.  This is an intentional
>misinterpretation by scholars so as not to get into trouble with their
>colleagues and not challenge western religions.

My understanding (which is supported by the fact that water is denser
than air) is that water would cause erosion to occur more quickly than
wind, and hence if that were the cause of the weathering then the
pyramids would actually be *younger* than they appear to be, i.e. they
couldn't last as long with water erosion as with wind erosion. Perhaps
a geologist could clarify this.

>The land forms found on Mars are NOT those done by Nature.  The angles formed
>by the pyramids are impossible for nature to create.  There are too many
>variations on the e/pi constant.

e is the base of *natural* logarithms.
pi is the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter.
Both numbers are found frequently in nature; why shouldn't their ratio
be?

>  Even the latitude on Mars where the city/
>face/pyramid are found is a function of e/pi.  He spent several hours creating
>an exquisite mathematical trail showing that the pyramid on Mars, the
>pyramid at Gizeh and, co-equivalently, the Sphinx in Egypt, are all more than
>200,000 years old.

As much as I hate to put limits on mathematics (remember, I have a
personal stake in math!), I'm afraid that no "mathematical trail" can
*ever* establish the age of any artifact; that's an archeological
problem. All that one can establish with mathematics is that given
such and such assumptions, this and that follows. It's the job of the
experimental sciences to actually decide what assumptions are true,
and which are not.

>Mars has two carbon moons.  The planet Mars does not contain this carbon.  The
>moons appear to be asteriods that the Martians, using technology that is
>available to us today, moved into Martian orbit and, apparently, to
>mine.

Mars has plenty of carbon (its polar ice caps are formed of carbon
dioxide, which is also a major component of its atmosphere).

>The two moons are in perfect circular orbits around Mars.  Phobos is spiraling
>inward toward Mars.

If the moon is in a perfect circular orbit, how can it possibly be
spiralling inward?

>The ratio of the Earth to it's moon is .272.

The ratio of Earth's *what* to the moon's *what*?

>  The moon takes 27.32 (Earth)
>days to orbit the Earth.  It should be 27.2.

It "should" be 27.2? Why? I presume that it's because .272 * 1000 =
27.2. But what's special about base 10? Surely in light of the
Sumerian knowledge base 60 is much better; so "shouldn't" it be
.272 * 3600 = 979.2? And who said that the length of the orbit
"should" be anything in particular?

>Carl Sagan and Richard Hoagland used to be friends.  In public, Sagan says
>that this information is nonsense, but in private, he says something quite
>different.

What evidence do you have for this?

>Richard indicated that he will read anything that will bring him even 1
>data point closer to the Truth.

To quote Pilate, "What is Truth"? It sounds from the above that he
already has his mind made up.

(And no, I don't have _my_ mind made up already. I was just following
the exhortation to "Follow the numbers, follow the logic". They lead
me to the conclusion that there's nothing to this. However, I freely
admit my own limitations, which is why I had so many questions to ask.
Surely the Truth can stand up to scrutiny, and so I scrutinize
everything that claims to be Truth. (How's that for profound? :-)).
--
Eric R. Smith    [e-mail]    [e-mail]
I speak for myself.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Oct 91 07:27:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay)
Lines: 45
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2241 sci.skeptic:15774 alt.paranormal:3227

[about four completely irrelevant newsgroups removed from the
distribution.  Gosh, I realize that what follows is INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT
(sarcasm), but I really don't think it rates misc.headlines.]\

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
>This which I state should be obvious but, as I have woefully discovered, many
>readers of this will jump to conclusions before doing their homework.
>...
>In order to completely realize the possible truth of the material presented
>in his discussions, you should understand tetrahedral geometry and it's
>associated simple trigonometry.  Tetrahedral geometry only works with a
>...
>The Egyptian Pyramids are made of  calcium carbonate which has an internal
>structure that is exactly like the structure of the pyramid (in Egypt) itself.

It *IS*?  Gosh, I thought it was CaCO3.  Which part of the Egyptian
pyramids corresponds to the carbon atom and which to the calcium atom?
Which parts are the three oxygen atoms?

>The two moons are in perfect circular orbits around Mars.  Phobos is spiraling
>inward toward Mars.

Those two claims are inherently contradictory.  (For the record,
there are no known objects in our Solar System which are considered to
oribt in circles; all show measurable orbital eccentricity.  In a
ddition, of course, no orbits are mathematically perfect ellipses, due
to things such as gravity of neighboring planets.)

>The ratio of the Earth to it's moon is .272.

Gee, the Moon is almost four times as large as the Earth?


This article was greatly amusing, and I think it served a great social
value: by providing a concrete example of how the American school system
is failing to give students basic knowledge of such things as science or
critical thought...

                            -- K.

--
.............................................................................
James "Kibo" Parry      [e-mail]    Independent graphic designer
271 Dartmouth St. #3D                         (specialty: logos & corporate
Boston, MA 02116          [phone]      identities) and type designer.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!aplcen!sun4!jwm
From: [e-mail] (James W. Meritt)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Oct 91 13:41:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
} [a whole lot of silliness deleted]

What I find amusing is that this trash was not cross-posted to talk.origins,
where some of it was directly concerned, though he seems to have blanket
the rest of the net.  I am also concerned that he did not include the
faces of Ted Kennedy and Mickey Mouse, also identified on the landscape
of mars.


Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not necessarily
represent those opinions of this or any other organization.  The facts,
however, simply are and do not "belong" to anyone.
    [e-mail] or [e-mail] or meritt%aplvm.BITNET
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From: [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Oct 91 14:04:38 GMT
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    I am intrigued by the psychlogy of this Mar's face story
    as much as anything. I first heard about it on the "For
    the People" show on shortwave (WWCR) - and am equally
    intrigued by their psychological profiles.

    Anyway, my psychological profile must have something in it
    that makes me curious. I don't know why I'm using pyschology
    as a theme here?? on to the subject...

    Just another data point / coincidence to offer. The NYTimes
    article yesterday on the "Eve" hypothesis says mitochondrial DNA
    traces back to a single female some 220,000 years ago - who
    is the common ancestor of all humans today.

    My curiosity is most picqued by the sudden interest in a
    wildly expensive and seemingly ridiculous proposal for Mars
    exploration. From being a belly-laugh of an idea, to real
    proposals for joint US/Russian explorations seems quite a
    jump in these tough economic times. The same issue of the
    NY Times went in to great detail on the tasks ahead for Mars
    missions. They specifically mentioned that it would be possible
    to warm the planet up to a workable level using carbon
    brought in from an asteroid (or moon?). I must say that I was
    struck by the parallels to your Hoagland transcript.

    When something seems too crazy to be going on (my psychology
    theme) I have always invoked the "follow the money" rule to
    find out who is going to profit - most things are then under-
    standable. Money is not a good motivation in this confusing
    story - so my next step is to invoke the "follow the power"
    rule - hence my appearance here in alt.conspiracy.....

    Could you provide more details wrt your allusion to what the
    Soviets may have found on Mars/Phobos and what you meant re
    a cover-up. I am curious as to why we all of a sudden want to
    go to Mars with the "soviets". But then I also see that all
    of these Hoagland-like stories could be the artifacts of some sort of
    "psychological" propensity in those who also are trying to
    make sense out of the senseless.
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From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.magick
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Oct 91 10:55:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Wolfe)
writes:

|>[e-mail] writes:

|>>Nikola Tesla had over 700 patents.  He is the man responsible for Alternat-
|>>ing Current and radio being on this planet. He freely admitted he was gett-
|>>ing assistance from higher, extraterrestrial intelligence.
|>[Tesla life story deleted]
|>>I doubt it.  The point is that maybe those of you who have a solid science
|>>background, have it as a foundation to receive and implement new techno-
|>>logies from higher intelligence.  All I am saying is that there is higher
|>>intelligence out there and maybe you can receive or are receiving it. If
|>>only you would stop screaming and believing - if it can t be seen it does
|>>not exist. Listen!

|>So you deny that any human could have thought of the things Einstein and
|>Tesla did without alien help? We are so puny and incompetent and our visual-
|>isation capacities so limited we couldn't think of or do any of these things
|>on our own?

Actually Tesla was a pretty strange guy (that's a compliment from me) and had
some interesting abilities, like designing machines in his head (going into
the shop and telling machinists with dictated specs and simple drawings to
each make such and such a part and putting the parts together into a working
machine) for instance. It's been a while since I read any of his stuff but I
believe he did say he was getting stuff from 'higher levels'. I don't think
ET's were mentioned, and considering my personal prejudices I think it was
more like his HGA or the moral equivalent of same.

What the hell, I am cross posting this into alt.magick, lets get some cross
fermentation going.

josh
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Oct 91 16:02:00 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap) writes:
>    I am intrigued by the psychlogy of this Mar's face story
>    as much as anything. I first heard about it on the "For
>    the People" show on shortwave (WWCR) - and am equally
>    intrigued by their psychological profiles.

Is it possible that certain groups of people have decided that the only way
for the nations of the world to drop their antagonisms toward one another
is if their xenophobia is refocused outwards from our planet?  I am not
necessarilly suggesting a conspiracy - perhaps something less threatening -
a convergence of opinion by many pragmatists around the world, who hold on
to their power rather tenuously when the world is threatening to blow itself
up.

Perhaps all of these people are experimenting with the psychology of their
local populations, quietly trying to figure out what will play and what won't.
Perhaps they are aided in their misinformation campaigns by some truly
unexplained phenomena, which conveniently lend themselves to the E-T scenario.

This might explain why so many of these ET events appear to be rather
amatuerish hoaxes, yet there coninues to be an undercurrent of involvement by
the secret services of the nations.
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__
  Warren   v\ *|
             V
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From: [e-mail] (Iain Woolf)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien names
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Oct 91 17:03:44 GMT
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>>   In my last trip to Phoenix for the  UFO Conference I had the opportunity
>> to tape an couple of people named Shield and Sharula Dux.   They claim to be
>> from a city underneath Mt. Shasta called Telos.   This city has one and  one
>>...
>> Telos.   They do operate some of the space ships that are seen in our skies.
>> The overall leader of their space fleet is called  Ashtar and a command of one
>> of their fleet called the Silver fleet is called Anton.
>
>Why do these UFO-type people and places usually have names like Telos and
>Ashtar?  Why are they never called things like Zonko or Dorko or Klong?
>
>"Hi, I'm Donko from the planet Ning-Nong."

Or "Hello my name is Spotty from the planet Og" ??

 Iain.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Oct 91 19:11:53 GMT
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  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Bruce Barr says
>Please offer ANY historical evidence of ANY past life uncovered by ANYBODY
>that is, of course, not explained by some 'tainting' of the person by
>by normal knowledge of the historical events involved.  I will accept
>any reasonable doubt that no tainting is involved.  I am just unaware of
>any evidence.  Please show me I am wrong.

A while back Don Allen posted
The Meier Case & Its Spirituality -- By James W. Deardorff

Below is part of that post.  I have not read Ian Stevensons work but
he did get a million dollar grant to study reincarnation.  So maybe
it will provide a form of proof to those who would like to examine
the possibility of reincarnation.

 It is interesting that the concept of reincarnation has arisen from
observations quite independent of any religious teachings.  Data have been
accumulating in the files of those psychiatrists who have carefully studied
childhood cases of the "reincarnation type."  In these cases, of worldwide
distribution, an occasional child, usually between ages of two and six, will
be noticed by parents or relatives to talk spontaneously at times as if he or
she were actually someone else.  Often the child makes enough statements so
that the "someone else" can be identified beyond reasonable doubt as a
particular person who had died some years or months before the birth of the
child in question.  Ian Stevenson, author of cases of the Reincarnation Type
(four volumes published between 1975 and 1980), has over a thousand "solved"
cases of this nature in his files, along with a comparable number of unsolved
cases.  After the child exceeds an age of from six to ten, the past-life
memories generally fade away.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!uiucdcs!carroll
From: [e-mail] (Alan M. Carroll)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Oct 91 20:34:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
> you must first review the evidence that he presents.
I do reserve the right to compare his claims with physical reality.

> There is a new paradigm of man`s origins currently evolving in our
> consciousness on this planet.

Jeez, can't any of you ever say anything without random fancy words?
What's the point of "on this planet"? How many news readers are not on
this planet? (Dan Quayle doesn't read news, so he doesn't count).

> Up until now, we have had 2 choices:
> Creationism (whatever the Bible says has to be true) and Evolution (Darwinism:
> we evolved out of some primordial soup).

If you're going to include Creationism, why not the Norse or Greek
human origin mythologies? That's more than 2 choices. Besids, a number
of alternate "extraterrestial" origin theories get published all the
time.

> This new paradigm, as the Sumerians of Sitchen indicated

Yep, that's who I check with when I want the latest in scientifc
information. I assume that Mr. Hoagland reads Sumerian?

> Richard used
> phrases like: "... mitocondrial DNA scientists ..." "  and "... self-reflective
> dimensional expansion" to describe this idea.

Really, this makes no sense. There's no relationship between Sumerian
myths and "mitocondrial [sic] DNA scientists", and I doubt that there
is any meaning in the second phrase.

> Mars mission, with 150 foot per pixel resolution, and using techno-hacker
> wizardry

Ooh! Ooh! techno-hacker wizardry! Do you know any non-techno hackers?
Sounds like the latest advertising hype from Madison Avenue.

> the stills of the Mars mission and made into three dimensional fly-bys of
> the face, the pyramids and the city.

At 150 ft / pixel? I don't think you realize what a poor resolution
that is in the human scale.

> you should understand tetrahedral geometry and it's
> associated simple trigonometry.

But you never explain it, and I don't see any trigonometry in the rest
of the post.

> Tetrahedral geometry only works with a
> 360 degree system with 60 minutes of arc and 60 seconds per minute.

Why? I've _never_ heard of a geometry that depends on the system of
measure and I've had a lot of math. Certainly one can measure
tetrahedrons in a variety of systems.

> addition, 12 is a fundamental aspect of this system.
Why? What relationship does it have?

> For instance. it you take the slope of the Great Pyramid in Egypt, and
> divide it by the 60 degrees, it's top angle, you get 0.865.

Why would you want to do this? How do you measure the slope? length /
run, or by degrees? From the horizontal or vertical? If you take the
slope in radians and divide by pi / 3 (which is 60 degrees in
radians), you get the same value. So what is special about the 360
degree system?

> we have in a 360 degree circle and that which gives us 24 hours in a day,

How is that again? Where does 24 come out of 360? Shouldn't we have
360 hours / day?

> The Martian year
> is equivalent to 687 Earth days.

And so?

> The Fibonacci spiral is a tetrahedral mathematic.

You've never defined tetrahedral geometry or tetrahedral mathematic,
so this claim is meaningless - "The Fibonacci helix is a synergistic
mathematic. Follow the numbers and follow the logic".


> The Egyptian Pyramids are made of  calcium carbonate which has an internal
> structure that is exactly like the structure of the pyramid (in Egypt) itself.

Uh, you're not under the very mistaken impression that the Egyptain
pyramids are tetrahedrons, are you? They're not. Calcium carbonate is
tetrahedral, and therefore _doesn't_ have the same structure as the
pyramids.

> There are 20,000 books written on the Egyptian pyramids.

Again, so what? What is the point of these random facts? Just trying
to confuse us?

> This is an intentional
> misinterpretation by scholars so as not to get into trouble with their
> colleagues and not challenge western religions.

And how did they get the Eastern religions, and the non-religious in
on the deal?


> Even the latitude on Mars where the city/
> face/pyramid are found is a function of e/pi.

What's your measurement system? The exact values rather depend onthat,
don't they? How do you know that the Martians used the same
measurements as we do?

> He spent several hours creating
> an exquisite mathematical trail showing that the pyramid on Mars, the
> pyramid at Gizeh and, co-equivalently, the Sphinx in Egypt, are all more than
> 200,000 years old.

This has nothing to do with mathematics.


> Mars has two carbon moons.  The planet Mars does not contain this carbon.


Obviously not, if it's in the moons. "The Earth has a rocky moon.
Earth does not contain these rocks". Besides, Mars has plenty of
carbon.

> The two moons are in perfect circular orbits around Mars.  Phobos is spiraling
> inward toward Mars.

These two statement are contradictory. One of them is a lie. Which
one?

> The density of Phobos is 1.95 which means that 30% is
> missing, or hollowed out, or mined.

It means nothing of the sort. The density of Saturn is less than 1 -
does that mean most of it is missing, hollowed out, or mined?

> The Phobos orbit is 20 Km off true circular, due to it's decaying
> orbit.

But you said that both moons are in perfect cicular orbits. Read a few
lines above.

> If it were circular to begin with

A completely ad hoc assumption.


> The ratio of the Earth to it's moon is .272.  The moon takes 27.32 (Earth)
> days to orbit the Earth.  It should be 27.2.

Terrestial or sidereal time? Who says it "should be" 27.2? Why isn't
it? What do these numbers have to do with each other?

In summary, this whole things makes no sense, is filled with random
and often incorrect facts, and even contradicts itself. Get a clue,
dude.

--
Alan M. Carroll          <-- Another casualty of applied metaphysics
Epoch Development Team
Urbana Il.               "I hate shopping with the reality-impaired" - Susan
Path: ns-mx!uunet!infonode!ingr!b15!bfh
From: [e-mail] (bfh)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 00:17:52 GMT
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Oh, pleeeeeeze. Is anybody taking this seriously? C'mon people. Pull off
the blinders. The original poster is either pulling our collective leg
or in need of a reality check.

I apologize for wasting bandwidth on this, but some of you are posting
_SERIOUS_ replies.


-----------------------------------------------------------------
|Burgess F. Howell             | ___   ___   ___  __ ____   ___ |
|Intergraph Corporation        |//--\ //--\ //--\ ||//|| \ //--\|
|[e-mail]          |||    || || || __ ||  ||   || |||
|                              |||__  ||_|| || || ||  ||   || |||
|    "Ex nihilo omnia fit."    |\\--/ \\--/ \\--/ --  --   \\--/|
|                              |==You should try it sometime.===|
|---------------------------------------------------------------|

Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: For the Person seeking books on the Pyramids
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 00:03:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>I am not sure I am in the right newsgroup, but I *thought*
>someone wrote in seeking information for pyramid books
>(or something to that effect).
>
>If you are out there, pls. email me privately...there is
>a book you might wish to check out:
>
>"Initiation in the Great Pyramid" by Earlyne Chaney,
>available from:  Astara, 800 W. Arrow Highway, Upland, CA 91786.
>
>Kathy
>"..when the candidate seeks to overcome the desires of the Earth plane,
>he immediately finds the karma of his past rising to confront him,
>to challenge his quest for wisdom.  Such a confrontation often
>creates panic and confusion.  Your decision to enter the battle symbolizes
>your will and wisdom in overcoming."
>
>    --Earlyne Chaney, "Initiation in the Great Pyramid"

There's another very good book on Pyramids out there, called "Pyramid
Energy - The Philosophy of God; The Science of Man", published by a
group called Delta K. While the initiation book is a more right-brain
approach as to what went on in the pyramids and the things the people
felt, this book is a more left-brain "technical" book dealing with
sacred geometry, ancient history (concerning Atlantis, Lemuria, etc),
pyramid forces, the Masters, and other neat stuff.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\ Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen \ [e-mail] \  /  \  /  \  /
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\ "Few things matter much...                                                 /
/                  ... most things do not matter at all" - Bishop Leadbeater \
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: KUTHUMI to the UN ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Oct 91 23:00:09 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
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KUTHUMI....
"We have great power, but will not interfere because of the universal law of
non-interference"

You obviously have poor logic abilities: you interfere just by communicating.
How foolish of you. You karmic debt must now be enormous! Go away and don't
send anyone else. ASdonai we don't need you....


PS  Are you rlated to Dr. Scott Corder?


:-)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 00:51:42 GMT
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>    Just another data point / coincidence to offer. The NYTimes
>    article yesterday on the "Eve" hypothesis says mitochondrial DNA
>    traces back to a single female some 220,000 years ago - who
>    is the common ancestor of all humans today.

That, of course, assumes a constant rate of mutation for mitochondrial DNA.

>    My curiosity is most picqued by the sudden interest in a
>    wildly expensive and seemingly ridiculous proposal for Mars
>    exploration.

It isn't "sudden" interest.  The interest has been around for quite some time.

>    From being a belly-laugh of an idea, to real
>    proposals for joint US/Russian explorations seems quite a
>    jump in these tough economic times.

Perhaps.  But on the other hand, in what areas other than space exploration did
the U.S. and U.S.S.R. cooperate during the cold war?  The Apollo/Soyuz mission
had a lot in common with the proposed joint U.S./U.S.S.R. Mars mission.
Little, if any, immediate practical value, but a symbol of cooperation, and one
that's likely to get LOTS of publicity.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 00:15:08 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kevin D. Quitt) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>... the Pleiadians are spiritual, metaphysical
>>teachers and I consider what they teach to be among the highest quality of
>>information I have encountered.
>
>    Has anything they've presented to you been outside of current human
>philsophy? That is, have you learned anything from them that couldn't or
>hasn't come from a normal human mind? Would you give some (short)
>examples? (email may be preferable)
>
>
>>Nikola Tesla ... freely admitted he was getting
>>assistance from higher, extraterrestrial intelligence.
>
>    He did?  What's your source?
>
>
>>when he was in school he presented
>>his theory of alternating current and the professor spent the whole class
>>period putting Tesla and the theory down.
>
>    Where was this documented?
>
>
>> Now lucky for us that Tesla was not
>>a Skeptic and more interested in what his peers thought than truth, or we
>>would be using Edisions DC power with a generating plant every few blocks.
>
>    Wrongo boy!  He *was* a skeptic, and only believed what he had evidence
>for.  A skeptic is the *one person* who will not be swayed by opinion.
>--
> _
>Kevin D. Quitt              srhqla!venus!kdq     [e-mail]
>3D systems, inc.            26081 Avenue Hall    Valencia, CA 91355
>VOICE [phone] x430   FAX [phone]
>
>                96.37% of all statistics are made up.

One biography of Tesla (Not "Man out of Time", but a longer one written by
a close friend...Ill have to go back to my book boxes and dig it out) states
that Tesla felt he was visited by a spirit/being/presence, that manifested
itself in the form of a dove with radiant eyes. He had such a visitation
on the night his mother died. He was extremely attached to his mother. Her
death was catastrophic for him.

Tesla also is claimed to have an incredibly visual imagination. The author
and Tesla were walking when Tesla invented the synchronous AC motor. The
author claims Tesla shouted  something like, "Look, there it is, right in
front of us. Watch the fields rotate. See, its simple. Watch how I can
make it reverse..." This event is presented to the reader in a a way
as to make you believe Tesla expected others to see the images he
conjured in his mind.

Tesla also enjoyed connecting himself to extremely high frequency, high
voltage, low current, power sources. Mark Twain was a guest at one of
Tesla's private parties where he hooked himself up to his lightning
machines. One could see glowing currents flowing over his body. He could
also make lamps light at a distance. It is claimed that he once connected
a tiny box to a load-bearing pillar in his workshop. The box vibrated
at the fundamental frequency of this building housing his workshop. When
bricks began to fall from the building to the street, the police were called
in to force Tesla to turn off his miniature earthquake machine.

Tesla was a genius. I do not believe beings from the Pleiades had anything
to do with his inventions. Anyway, the Pleiades are a group of young stars
still in the process of formation. It is a younger system than ours. The
most advanced life form in that cluster is a protein molecule. We are a
more advanced society than anything which has or is developing there. That is,
unless beings develop in the core of forming stars.

Marconi shut off all the electric lights in Milan with a pocket sized device.
This included battery powered devices. This happened long ago. Now, no one
can be sure Marconi actually did it himself. One day he said something
like, "On October 22 at 7:00 PM Im going to turn off all electricity in
Milan." And at that time, everything stopped working. So, was Marconi
in touch with people from other galaxies or dimensions?

I hope not. I hope we can give some credit to the humans who have through
their own intelligence and creations  changed the world for the better.
Humans are pretty incredible creatures too.


Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Pleiadean Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 01:40:25 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 18

Joe Mastroianni (any relation to the actor? :-) ) writes about
a book on Tesla ("he had a visitation on thenight his mother died")

I knew a couple in a meditation group that lost their daughter in
an automobile accident (I believe she was in her teens).  On the
night before they found out that she was dead, she appeared to
the woman through the window.

I knew both of these people and feel they have no reason to lie
about such a thing.

To those people who 'open their minds'...boundaries can collapse,
and what we *think* is reality may only be seen to be one reality
amongst many other realities.  Also, I remember someone once
saying how the mind is like a parachute:  if you don't open it,
it will not work.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re:  The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Oct 91 15:49:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 18
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2255 alt.paranormal:3240 sci.skeptic:15816 talk.religion.newage:7044

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Babb) writes:
>I hate to be a skeptic ;-), but has anyone mentioned that the Pleiadians claim
>to be from a star system whose age is measured in thousands of years (well,
>tens of thousands, maybe) while we lesser-advanced beings have taken millions
>of years to evolve to our current level?  Perhaps living on plasma planets
>is more conducive to rapid intellectual evolution?

I used to mention it every chance I got.  Then I got tired of all the
chances :-)

Of course, the Pleiadians might not have bodies.  But then, why hang around
any particular star system?

--
  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.:
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 03:10:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 28
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2256 talk.religion.newage:7045 alt.paranormal:3241

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
>      MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES
>                of the
>          Parapsychology Society Subcommittee
>            United Nations
>              New York, New York
>               October 15, 1990

I didn't know the U.N. had a Parapsychology Society.  What does it do?

>Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma
>Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich.
>All rights reserved. This message may be copied for the sole purpose
>of sharing it with others. No part of this message may be published,
>printed, transmitted, stored in a retrieval system, or translated into
>any other human language without the express permission of The Alpha
>Connection, Inc., Suite 204, 7410 Montgomery Blvd., NE, Albuquerque,
>NM 87109.

What is Norma Milanovich a doctor of, and why does she place such
restrictions on a message which she claims she is not the author of?

--
  *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
  Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!Sirius.dfn.de!math.fu-berlin.de!mailgzrz!opal!unido!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!dkuug!iesd!iesd.auc.dk!fischer
From: [e-mail] (Lars P. Fischer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Oct 91 21:14:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Mathematics and Computer Science, University of Aalborg
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2257 sci.skeptic:15825 sci.astro:11753 misc.headlines:18368 alt.paranormal:3243 alt.conspiracy:7814
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 1 Oct 91 03:34:38 GMT

>>>>> On 1 Oct 91 03:34:38 GMT, [e-mail] (David Jones) said:

David> [...] There are 20,000 books written on the Egyptian pyramids.  It is
David> located 5' 30" of direct North.  This is caused by tektonic
David> plate movements (otherwise it would be direct north).  The
David> plate that it sits on moves an approximate maximum of 1' arc
David> every 45,000 years.  This means that it would take about
David> 247,000 years to get to it's present position. [...]


   If sarcasm was posted on the USENET, would anyone notice?
                -James Davis Nicoll

/Lars, Founder, SON, Inc.
--
Lars Fischer,  [e-mail]   | It takes an uncommon mind to think of
CS Dept., Univ. of Aalborg, DENMARK. | these things.  -- Calvin
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!linus!linus!tympani!gpivar
From: [e-mail] (Greg Pivarnik)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.:
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 10:46:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va
Lines: 54
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2258 talk.religion.newage:7047 alt.paranormal:3244
Nntp-Posting-Host: tympani.mitre.org

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
|> >
|> >      MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES
|> >                of the
|> >          Parapsychology Society Subcommittee
|> >            United Nations
|> >              New York, New York
|> >               October 15, 1990
|>
|> I didn't know the U.N. had a Parapsychology Society.  What does it do?
|>
|> >Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma
|> >Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich.
|> >All rights reserved...(other copyright related stuff omitted).
|>
|> What is Norma Milanovich a doctor of, and why does she place such
|> restrictions on a message which she claims she is not the author of?
|>
|> --
|>   *  From the disk of:    |  [e-mail]         | I'm in a groove now
|>   Jim Shaffer, Jr.    |  uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms     | -- or is it a rut?
|>   37 Brook Street    |  [e-mail]  |
|>   Montgomery, PA 17752    |  [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")


Jim, this article intrigued me, it also prompted me to investigate its validity.
The question of copyright also was approached,here are my findings:
I called the United Nations to find out if a"Parapsychology Society Subcommittee"
actually existed. The U.N. says that there is no subcommittee by that name registered.
Althought they clearly stated that it was possible a non-governmental group derived off
of one of their subcommittes or a group using one of their conference areas. Which the U.N.
says, will not publish any transcripts which are collected within.
Not satisfied I called the Alpha Connection in Aluquerque,NM. They are a training
organization( teach the government and other companies ...how to cooperated) it was
founded by Dr. Norma Milanovich. The copyright is impossed so that the message can not
be taken out of context. This is a common practice, you'll find a similar copyright on the Bible
and other things like that. It is used so that the original text is undisturbed. But it also
explains that you may make copies and distribute it for purposes of sharing it with others.
Dr. Milanovich will be speaking to the U.N. today and tomorrow on related topics in New York.
I found out that there is a person within the U.N. which has invited her up for the channeling
and speaking engagements.  Although the "group" is not officially recognized as a U.N. entity
the proceeding therein are authentic.
Hope that cleared things...by the way if any of you are interested in speaking to Norma Milanovich
she does take phone calls and will schedule appointments. She has no problem with
discussing her work.  She will be going to Europe after the U.N.  and will be back in mid October
briefly before going off for another two weeks worth of speaking engagements, she
is very busy.

--
Greg
--
"I dream therefore I am."
--
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!comp.vuw.ac.nz!canterbury.ac.nz!cosc.canterbury.ac.nz!chisnall
From: [e-mail] (The Technicolour Throw-up)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien names
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 11:10:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science,University of Canterbury,New Zealand
Lines: 44
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2259 sci.skeptic:15826
Nntp-Posting-Host: hihi.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Andrew Mack,Iconix,x222):
> [....]
> Why do these UFO-type people and places usually have names like Telos and
> Ashtar?  Why are they never called things like Zonko or Dorko or Klong?
>
> "Hi, I'm Donko from the planet Ning-Nong."

A more revealing question is - why are the names of aliens etc always "easy
on our ears".  Why, for example, do we seldom have names like:

mlo<ch>a, tbilik, !aang, <kp>at, or ngouie

where <ch> as in german "ich", "!" as in the Xhosa language, and <kp>
represents a rare phoneme which apparently occurs in some african languages
and is basically a "k" and a "p" said at the same time.

Listen to the names of aliens given by people and you will notice that they
are alomst always nice "english"-ish words - words with the same sort of
consonants and vowels and arrangements thereof that we have in english. Yet
listen to someone speaking another language from our planet other than
english and you have no difficulty in recognising the words from it as not
being english.  Any given language only has certain sounds available in it
and they can only be arranged in certain ways.  English for example doesn't
have <ch> and it can never have -tl- or -tb- within a syllable (as in the
2nd example above).  Native speakers of a language have a good inbuilt idea
of what their language is like and can use such knowledge, intuitively, to
recognise foreign words as being foreign.

But whenever alien names are proffered in the western press they are
inavariably english-like.  Why? Don et al will no doubt claim that it has
something to do with the channelling - that the pleidians (or whoever) know
its hard for us to pronounce 'foreign' words like the above examples and so
they give us easy-to-pronounce names.  A simpler explanation is that the
names are being generated at random by the subconcious in accordance with
the channeller's inbuilt linguistic knowledge.

If you ever want a good example of this listen to fundamentalist christians
who think that they are speaking in tongues.  If you listen closely to their
spew of words you will hear lots and lots of random *english* syllables.

Anybody know what names the aliens have in France or Russia? :-)
--
Just my two rubber ningis worth.
Name: Michael Chisnall        email: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!linus!linus!mwvm.mitre.org!M22565
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Photographic Evidence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 12:34:55 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102
Lines: 13
Nntp-Posting-Host: mwvm.mitre.org


Having lost track of the UFO controversy in the late 1970's and having now
found this news group, I'm wondering what happened to the McMinnville and
Heflin (Santa Ana I think) photographs. I seem to remember them being
help up as legitimate evidence at first, then becoming controversial after
computer analysis. Were they ever exposed as hoaxes or did more modern
analysis confirm them as real? Also, does this newsgroup represent a microcosm
of the current state of UFOlogy? Channeling? Pleides? I seem to have missed
some big changes.



-Eric
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!spot.Colorado.EDU!bradleyt
From: [e-mail] (Todd Bradley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien names
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 15:43:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Planet)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 37
Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Andrew Mack,Iconix,x222):
>> [....]
>> Why do these UFO-type people and places usually have names like Telos and
>> Ashtar?  Why are they never called things like Zonko or Dorko or Klong?
>>
>> "Hi, I'm Donko from the planet Ning-Nong."
>
>A more revealing question is - why are the names of aliens etc always "easy
>on our ears".  Why, for example, do we seldom have names like:
>
>mlo<ch>a, tbilik, !aang, <kp>at, or ngouie
>

Many lines of wisdom deleted.

>
>If you ever want a good example of this listen to fundamentalist christians
>who think that they are speaking in tongues.  If you listen closely to their
>spew of words you will hear lots and lots of random *english* syllables.

Well, some of it could be Hebrew if you use your imagination.

>
>Anybody know what names the aliens have in France or Russia? :-)
>--

I believe Beldar and Leonid are common ones.

Todd.


--
Todd Bradley    Aerospace Engineering Sciences Dept.
Oompa Loompas Ultimate Frisbee Team 3-1
[e-mail]    | [phone] home
[e-mail] | [phone] office
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Keywords: Mars Face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 17:04:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 62

Throughout history people have put together facts and made interpretations.
Medical doctors do this all the time. They make a living at it. You are
coughing -- you have a cold. Your fingers hurt when you move them --- you
have arthritis.

James Burke's first PBS series, "Connections", is a masterpiece in my view.
Burke describes how historians have blatently biased society through
incorrect interpretation of the facts. Mostly, the profit motive has
driven human history. Lots of stuff was invented by accident by people
who were trying to make money by doing completely irrelevant things.
The steam engine was a side effect of Watt's trying to pump water out
of coal mines. Fertilizer came from a guy trying to sell expensive clothing
dye to royalty.

I think there is too much being read into the facts we have on this "Face
on Mars" issue. I suspect this is the reason for the schism Hoagland mentions
he has with Carl Sagan.

Here is what we know. There is this mountain on mars that looks like a human
face. When we run signal processing algorithms on the picture data, it
looks even more like a face. In the same vicinity there are mountains
with regular, flat, sides. These look like some kind of pyramid structure
to us humans.

Thats it. Thats all we have. In his book, Hoagland starts conjecturing
that these Martian features are part of a city. He draws lines and makes
astronomical calculations. He determines where the sun will rise on the
Martian Solstices. He biases the data with an interpretation that includes
cultural features taken from historical human religions.

Anthropologists build historical scenerios from known data. They add
cultural biases. They piece together the past using rocks, ruins, and
cultural information from later times. They extrapolate the present into
the past.

Hoagland is attempting anthropology at a distance. He hypothesises a
martian civilization based on facts from earth. He bases all his conjecture
on a huge leap of reasoning -- that the features on mars are not natural, but
made by intelligent beings. We have no information other than a few pictures
of an alien planetary surface and Hoagland has built an interstellar religion
from it. The chances that his theories are wrong are astronomically high.

On the other side, imagine an intelligent alien culture intercepting
Voyager, playing the record, hearing (If they hear) that child's voice
say, "Hello from the children of the planet Earth", and concluding that
the phenomena was caused by random collisions between interstellar gasses.


If you wanted to get our attention and you lived on mars, maybe you would
build something so obvious that it couldnt possibly be mistaken for a
random natural structure. Something so blatant that its discoverers
couldnt possibly misinterpret its origins. Something so common, that an
isolated intelligent society couldnt possibly believe it was real.


Joe

--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: FILE: Codex.asc - Peruvian AF encounter with Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 03:30:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 93
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2263 alt.conspiracy:7824 sci.skeptic:15839

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler) writes:
>[e-mail] (Don Allen) says:
>
>    (...lots of UFO nonsense deleted...)
>
>> I think we're being played with, tested, poked and prodded just
>> to see what we can do and are capable of doing. We are their
>> guinea pigs.
>
>I think Don has it right this time, except that he has not
>correctly identified the tester and the testee.

You know Jon..I really feel sorry for you...once in a while you really
_should_ take your head out of the sand and do some research.

Quite a few of you skeptics delight in calling this "nonsense" but
how much research do you do?

What for example, can you tell me about the most recent UFO flap
going on in Lajas, in the Laguna Cartagena area of Puerto Rico?

I have 19 newspaper articles here in front of me from Puerto Rico
that were sent to me. Some of them are AP..quite a few have impressive
photos. I don't believe that any news of this was ever carried in this
country that I've been able to ascertain.

What can you tell me about the UFO flap in Mexico city during the recent
eclipse? Please give us the benefit of your findings...

Now..as to the quoted article you lampooned..that was an _actual_ FOIA
release, but being a /skeptic\ you would prefer that a Grey come and
take you for a rectal examination I suppose as evidence..

If you doubt that it *was* a valid FOIA release..I can dig up Carl Aztec's
voice number and post it here for you to call and verify from him personally
and have him quote you his sources.

However, I don't *expect* anyone to believe any of these articles at face
value but I DO expect that you will get off your duff and do some basic
research or is that too much to ask?

I am cross-posting these articles to sci.skeptic with the eternal _hope_
that some of you will do your homework, be better educated and engage
in civilized dialog, rather than the silliness that passes for "skepticism"
as it usually degenerates into ridicule and personal attacks. Skeptics
and "UFO believers" can pass insults back and forth between newsgroups
but that doesn't serve any good purpose nor does it promote knowledge
or understanding.

I have spent the last few months posting numerous articles and the only
thing I ever asked (if you bother to read the intro disclaimer) was
to do your own investigation. I personally don't care if you are a
believer or skeptic, but that you just do your homework. I don't pretend
to be an "expert"...I'm just a person who *was* a skeptic (believe
it or not..I don't care) until I,along with 2 others had a Close
Encounter in 1974, in Albuquerque,NM. This sighting lasted for 10 min.,
was *very* close and thereafter convinced me that "there's something
to all this UFO "nonsense".

It's indeed your option to dismiss all of this "nonsense", and it's
not my lifelong goal to persuade people either one way or the other.

I provide the articles simply because I believe that there are others
who may have experienced similar sightings and also in the hopes that
people who do read the articles may have something to add in the way
of _constructive_ dialog. I don't have a problem with skeptics who
show out-points in a article, or who have something to add to a discussion...

Amazingly I can be _both_ a "believer" and a "skeptic" myself but it's
hard to find mature skeptics who can engage in a conversation without
resulting to ridicule..at that point whatever credibility they may have
had in my book...gets tossed. Personally I don't care if you print out
the articles and have a good laugh..or if you feed them to your dog..I
really don't care. I do draw the line at personal attacks on me, however.

BTW...if you care to do so..you can contact Carl Aztec to check the
veracity of the FOIA release at:

Aztec Enterprises
PO Box 668
Bushkill, PA
18324

Don




--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq
From: [e-mail] (Kevin D. Quitt)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 18:46:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA
Lines: 27
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15841 alt.paranormal:3246 alt.alien.visitors:2264 talk.religion.newage:7051

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni) writes:
>Marconi shut off all the electric lights in Milan with a pocket sized device.
>This included battery powered devices.

    Somehow I really doubt this.  You have some documentation perhaps?


>So, was Marconi
>in touch with people from other galaxies or dimensions?

    Nope, just Tesla's notes.


>I hope we can give some credit to the humans who have through
>their own intelligence and creations  changed the world for the better.
>Humans are pretty incredible creatures too.

    Can't disagree with you here.


--
 _
Kevin D. Quitt              srhqla!venus!kdq     [e-mail]
3D systems, inc.            26081 Avenue Hall    Valencia, CA 91355
VOICE [phone] x430   FAX [phone]

                96.37% of all statistics are made up.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 19:55:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 7
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 2 Oct 91 13:41:02 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> faces of Ted Kennedy and Mickey Mouse, also identified on the landscape
> of mars.

  You forgot Kermit the Frog (which, by the way, resembles Kermit
much more that the 'face' resembles anything).
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!hp4nl!tuegate.tue.nl!gem!gtoal
From: [e-mail] (Graham Toal)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: INFO: Meessen - Belgian UFO Sightings 1989-90 part1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Oct 91 23:56:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>Perhaps  the  U.S. Air Force was testing this secret  plane  over
>Belgium  without  notifying  the Belgian Air  Force  -a  friendly
>nation  which uses American F- 16s. Does this seem  practical  or
>likely? Consider that testing new planes inevitably involves  the
>risk  of  an  accident  or  crash,  in  which  case  the  Belgian
>authorities  would have to be notiFied to help protect  essential
>secrets.

Actually this scenario strikes me as very plausible:  it's called
blind testing.  Assume the US has built an unmanned computer + remote
controlled drone for survey/intelligence gathering.  It's small - mostly
one big jet engine, in the middle, pointing downwards.  It's stealth-
covered and damn-near invisible to radar.  They test it live over the
territory of a friendly government, to see whether it will be spotted
in action.  If it were to crash, the US (& possibly selected informed
high Belgian officials) inform the military immediately and it is
recovered; if the test is successful, they keep quiet.

Interestingly enough, a guy posted an article to alt.conspiracy just
some months before these incidents, postulating *exactly* such a
'black' technology program.  Say buddy, if you're listening, care
to find your posts in the archives and resend them?

Regards
Graham
Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INFO: Meessen - Belgian UFO Sightings 1989-90 part1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 21:43:56 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Graham Toal) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
|> >Perhaps  the  U.S. Air Force was testing this secret  plane  over
|> >Belgium  without  notifying  the Belgian Air  Force  -a  friendly
|> >nation  which uses American F- 16s. Does this seem  practical  or
|> >likely? Consider that testing new planes inevitably involves  the
|> >risk  of  an  accident  or  crash,  in  which  case  the  Belgian
|> >authorities  would have to be notiFied to help protect  essential
|> >secrets.
|>
|> Actually this scenario strikes me as very plausible:  it's called
|> blind testing.  Assume the US has built an unmanned computer + remote
|> controlled drone for survey/intelligence gathering.  It's small - mostly
|> one big jet engine, in the middle, pointing downwards.  It's stealth-
|> covered and damn-near invisible to radar.  They test it live over the
|> territory of a friendly government, to see whether it will be spotted
|> in action.  If it were to crash, the US (& possibly selected informed
|> high Belgian officials) inform the military immediately and it is
|> recovered; if the test is successful, they keep quiet.
|>
|> Interestingly enough, a guy posted an article to alt.conspiracy just
|> some months before these incidents, postulating *exactly* such a
|> 'black' technology program.  Say buddy, if you're listening, care
|> to find your posts in the archives and resend them?
|>
|> Regards
|> Graham


The Hudson Valley sightings from the mid 80's have a similar look and feel
to the Belgium sightings. The craft sighted were similar (boomerang shapes,
large slow-moving craft) and the debunkings were also similar (ultralights,
stealth secrets). You may want to take a look at the Hudson Valley
sightings.



--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail] |       \\?!//         | t                    |
***********************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!olivea!amdahl!jesse
From: [e-mail] (Jesse Mundis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 22:25:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Carl J Lydick) writes:

>Perhaps.  But on the other hand, in what areas other than space exploration did
>the U.S. and U.S.S.R. cooperate during the cold war?  The Apollo/Soyuz mission
>had a lot in common with the proposed joint U.S./U.S.S.R. Mars mission.
>Little, if any, immediate practical value, but a symbol of cooperation, and one
>that's likely to get LOTS of publicity.

  Just a quick comment.  I'd say there is quite a bit of immediate practical
value to space exploration.  The value that comes from spin-off technology.  Taking those into account, Space exploration has been one of the best values/dollar spent in research...even including the less than stunning recent past.


--
    Jesse Mundis     |      Amdahl Corporation       | Freedom is just chaos
[e-mail] | 1250 East Arques Ave  M/S 316 | with better lighting.
   [phone]    |   Sunnyvale,  CA 94088-3470   |    -Alan Dean Foster

#include <Disclaimer.standard>
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From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: FILE: Codex.asc - Peruvian AF encounter with Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 22:41:01 GMT
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> it or not..I don't care) until I,along with 2 others had a Close
> Encounter in 1974, in Albuquerque,NM. This sighting lasted for 10 min.,
> was *very* close and thereafter convinced me that "there's something
> to all this UFO "nonsense".

  Would you please post a brief account of this encounter?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!medici!jbm
From: [e-mail] (Jacques Guy)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien names
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 22:34:43 GMT
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In France they have French-sounding names mostly, sometimes mock-Latin, Greek or
Ancient Egyptian (but as found in school books, themselves taken from the Hellenized
pronunciation of those names: Apis, Osiris, Mykerinos, etc.) Read Guy Breton's "Les
nuits secretes de Paris", an investigation of weird French sects (including one that
worships.... onions!)
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From: [e-mail] (Claus Schoenleber)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 19:41:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.sceptic
Organization: private UUCP site, Claus Schoenleber, Kiel, Germany
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Why must there be a "Face" on Mars? I have seen those NASA-pictures taken
from Viking in a book, written by a guy, who calls himself "astrophysicist"
(v.Buttlar, he is known as someone who does not write a scientific style).

It says that the (Main-) Face (there "are" more of them!) has a diameter
of 1.5 km. Looking at the shadow of the Face, the sun must be near to the
horizon; in such situation the shadows produced are very long, so the
Face's shadow is nearly as long as the Face. That supports "pattern
recognition", even if there is no pattern.

Another point is the "150 feet per pixel resolution", which is not very high
resolution to identify such fine structures like a face. In fact, the area
shown is dotted with craters and if some of the dots have a different size
(as in the "Face") and do form the right pattern everone would recognize a
face.

In fact, when you look at the picture, it seems that there are three
pyramids (one ruin) and in the east of the pyramids a mighty "face".
But mainly the *shadows* (and my imagination), _not the structures_, make
that effect. I don't think there "are" faces when you see that area
at another "daytime" (say noon). Perhaps NASA has some pictures of
the same area at another daytime (I don't have).

(You might remember the "Channels on Mars"...)

From cognitive psychology it is known, that human brain *wants*
to see patterns in what we see, and faces are the most natural thing we
have sophisticated pattern recognition algorithms for. You can show a
baby a circle with two dots (as eyes) and a "smiling mouth" painted on
a piece of paper: it will smile too because it recognizes a "Smiling Face".

I think that the resolution of those "Face pictures" is not high enough
to say that there *are* faces; one can only say, those patterns (composed of
surface structures, low resolution and a sun near the horizon)
*look* like faces or pyramids.

There is too few information on those pictures, but human phantasy
and the wish, that there were "Martians" (the wish to get famous and
earn much money with books is impossible, isn't it?) create always such
interpretions.

But on the other hand it might be my limited imagination which ignores
the facts and better pictures show real faces and pyramids...



Claus.


-----------------------------------------------------------------
Claus Schoenleber        [e-mail]
Metzstr. 54            ...!unido!tpki!elrond!freitag
2300 Kiel 1
Germany                [phone]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: "Childhood's End"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 23:47:41 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 3

Has anyone read the science fiction book "Childhood's End" by A. C. Clarke, and
if so, what do you think about it? Also, does anyone know why it was originally
going to be made into a movie but that for some reason it was cancelled?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 00:55:39 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jesse Mundis) writes:
>[e-mail] (Carl J Lydick) writes:
>
>>Perhaps.  But on the other hand, in what areas other than space exploration did
>>the U.S. and U.S.S.R. cooperate during the cold war?  The Apollo/Soyuz mission
>>had a lot in common with the proposed joint U.S./U.S.S.R. Mars mission.
>>Little, if any, immediate practical value, but a symbol of cooperation, and one
>>that's likely to get LOTS of publicity.
>
>  Just a quick comment.  I'd say there is quite a bit of immediate practical
>value to space exploration.  The value that comes from spin-off technology.
Taking those into account, Space exploration has been one of the best
values/dollar spent in research...even including the less than stunning recent
past.

Actually, NASA is well-known for claiming as spinoffs lots of things that
aren't.  But I agree that space exploration has given a good ROI.  That aside,
what immediate practical value was there from the Apollo/Soyuz mission?  What
immediate practical value can we expect from the joint Mars mission?  We've got
(or had, 20 years ago, anyway) the technology necessary to do it, so it looks
unlikely to me that we'll get any major R&D benefits from it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!igor!erde!rmartin
From: [e-mail] (Bob Martin)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <rmartin.686535744@erde>
Date: 4 Oct 91 00:22:24 GMT
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[e-mail] (Karen Millar) writes:

>All you have to do is get in tune with that hp by forgetting about your
>self-imposed limitations, and solve that problem of yours. It's not an
>easy task, but it is do-able... the information you desire is free for the
>taking, if you can but unlock your consciousnes, as Einstein and many
>many others have done. It is getting in tune with how the universe works,
>and we *are* capable of doing this. The main issue that the Pleiadians
>are trying to get across our thick sculls is that

>            IT IS TIME TO WAKE UP!

     Why can't we just figure these things out for ourselves.
     Why do we have to believe that beings wiser and more
     intelligent will tell us all the answers if only we will
     listen.

     Answers come through hard work, and hard thought and lots
     of experience and lots of trial and error.  If you want
     to find the solutions to your problems, be they math
     problems, science problems, personality problems or any
     other type of problem, then buckle down and get to work.
     Don't wait for some gentler, nobler and wiser intellect
     to do it for you.  Those who depend on higher intellects
     are taking the risk that they will one day drink some
     purple koolaid.

     I resent the notion that our great men and women of science
     and history were really tapped into some deeper center.
     Why can't we just give these men and women the credit
     they deserve.  Not credit for "tapping in"  but credit
     for working the problems out for themselves.

     Phooey!  I've wasted enough time in this newsgroup.
--
+---Robert C. Martin---+-RRR---CCC-M-----M-| R.C.M. Consulting         |
| [e-mail] |-R--R-C----M-M-M-M-| C++/C/Unix Engineering    |
|     (Uncle Bob.)     |-RRR--C----M--M--M-| OOA/OOD/OOP Training      |
+----------------------+-R--R--CCC-M-----M-| Product Design & Devel.   |
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!peruvian.utah.edu!sgandy
From: [e-mail] (Sildem Gandy)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 01:50:07 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bruce Barr) writes:

>Please offer ANY historical evidence of ANY past life uncovered by ANYBODY
>that is, of course, not explained by some 'tainting' of the person by
>by normal knowledge of the historical events involved.  I will accept
>any reasonable doubt that no tainting is involved.  I am just unaware of
>any evidence.  Please show me I am wrong.
>
>
>Bruce Barr

Try reading "The girl with blue eyes". I don't remember the author off-hand
but this has a very interesting account of a girl regressed to a previous
life.  She remembered a life when her name was "Lishus Faver". And "We took
the gates".  Her father tried to find an historical record of this and event-
ually found one of an Aloyisious LeFever who was famed for have taken the
gates of a fort.  His daughter had no possibility of knowing this very
obscure bit of history.

Here's another possible tidbit.  I am very certain that in my previous
life in the twenties my name was Henry George Witherspoon the third, my
father went by Hank, I went by George, I drove a yellow Stutz Bearcat, I
lived in the New England area (I had a very New England teeth gritting
accent!). I had an accident where I ran into a crowd of people with the
Stutz, I think in about 1926 or so. I died in '27.

Anybody out there want to look up the historical references regarding that?
Or perhaps you know of the family? I think the family owned textile mills.
And my brothers name was Sam.

Sildem Gandy ([e-mail])
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!sgi!shinobu!odin!spanky.corp.sgi.com!pbroenen
From: [e-mail] (Paul Broenen)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Ian Stevenson and Reincarnation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Oct 91 17:40:24 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> A while back Don Allen posted
|> The Meier Case & Its Spirituality -- By James W. Deardorff
|>
|> Below is part of that post.  I have not read Ian Stevensons work but
|> he did get a million dollar grant to study reincarnation.  So maybe
|> it will provide a form of proof to those who would like to examine
|> the possibility of reincarnation.
|>
|>  It is interesting that the concept of reincarnation has arisen from
|> observations quite independent of any religious teachings.  Data have been
|> accumulating in the files of those psychiatrists who have carefully studied
|> childhood cases of the "reincarnation type."  In these cases, of worldwide
|> distribution, an occasional child, usually between ages of two and six, will
|> be noticed by parents or relatives to talk spontaneously at times as if he or
|> she were actually someone else.  Often the child makes enough statements so
|> that the "someone else" can be identified beyond reasonable doubt as a
|> particular person who had died some years or months before the birth of the
|> child in question.  Ian Stevenson, author of cases of the Reincarnation Type
|> (four volumes published between 1975 and 1980), has over a thousand "solved"
|> cases of this nature in his files, along with a comparable number of unsolved
|> cases.  After the child exceeds an age of from six to ten, the past-life
|> memories generally fade away.


For what it's worth, about a month ago I read a book entitled:

    "The After-life Experience"

(Subtitled: "The Physics of the Non-physical")  I don't recall the
author's last name (Wilson?), but he was British and had the same
first name "Ian".

This author mentioned some of Stevenson's most striking cases.
Specifically, two cases of children in India who claimed to be
people other than they currently were.  However, the author set
about debunking Stevenson, because [reportedly more thorough]
researchers who followed up with Stevenson's subjects found many
flaws and signs of trickery.  The author's claim was that
Stevenson was too eager to find evidence for reincarnation and
hurriedly accepted a lot of 'evidence' on faith.

I don't particularly recommend "The After-life Experience" as a
knowledgeable resource.  The author doesn't seem to have the
appropriate background for a book regarding such subjects.  Plus,
he shows an obvious bias thoughout his presentation of "facts".
Another word of warning: the subtitle is misleading.  There is
only one chapter in the book that even approaches the subject of
Physics and it merely describes a handful of studies that may
have revealed paranormal phenomena (like Einstein's particle
spinning test.)

Paul
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re:   The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 03:16:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Babb) writes:
>I hate to be a skeptic ;-), but has anyone mentioned that the Pleiadians claim
>to be from a star system whose age is measured in thousands of years (well,
>tens of thousands, maybe) while we lesser-advanced beings have taken millions
>of years to evolve to our current level?  Perhaps living on plasma planets
>is more conducive to rapid intellectual evolution?

I used to mention it every chance I got.  Then I got tired of all the
chances :-)

Of course, the Pleiadians might not have bodies.  But then, why hang around
any particular star system?

--
  *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:           | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms        | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street      | [e-mail]|
  Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]     | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re:  A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.:
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 03:18:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2278 talk.religion.newage:7061 alt.paranormal:3259

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
>     MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES
>               of the
>         Parapsychology Society Subcommittee
>               United Nations
>             New York, New York
>              October 15, 1990

I didn't know the U.N. had a Parapsychology Society.  What does it do?

>Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma
>Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich.
>All rights reserved. This message may be copied for the sole purpose
>of sharing it with others. No part of this message may be published,
>printed, transmitted, stored in a retrieval system, or translated into
>any other human language without the express permission of The Alpha
>Connection, Inc., Suite 204, 7410 Montgomery Blvd., NE, Albuquerque,
>NM 87109.

What is Norma Milanovich a doctor of, and why does she place such
restrictions on a message which she claims she is not the author of?

--
  *  From the disk of:    | NEW CONNECTION:        | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms    | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    | [e-mail]|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    | [e-mail]    | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 19:46:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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[e-mail] writes:

>The Pleiadians say they are here to inspire us to the highest degree possible
>so we will wake up and start creating our own reality

And some people have already created their own reality...

For those of you who are too tired to create your very own reality,
I'll sell you some of mine.
--
/|/-\/-\       The entire world            Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange carrot
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ worlds.COM   is not worried at all.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Mt. Shasta Pt.1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Sep 91 12:00:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] writes:

> They claim to be from a city underneath Mt. Shasta called Telos.

So help them get connected to the net.
--
/|/-\/-\       The entire world            Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange carrot
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ worlds.COM   is not worried at all.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Sep 91 11:55:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: WorldWide Software
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[e-mail] writes:

.. there are numerous quote gods

Hmm, most religions do not quote their gods.  Does this mean that
Pleidians do not evaluate their deities?  Why doesn't elisp have a
divine-p predicate?
--
/|/-\/-\       The entire world            Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange carrot
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ worlds.COM   is not worried at all.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Our Moon Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Sep 91 19:35:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: WorldWide Software
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[e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:

>For those of you who think that channelled communications are secure..think
>again..

Not to fear, channeled info is really encrypted in such a way that it
appears to be plaintext.  This explains the nonsensical nature of the
"plaintext".  Of course no one has the key, the aliens are bringing
that with them because some clerk in Orion mistakingly stamped it
"deliver by hand".

How do I know all this?  I just made it up, that's how.
--
/|/-\/-\       The entire world            Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange carrot
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ worlds.COM   is not worried at all.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!canterbury.ac.nz!cosc.canterbury.ac.nz!chisnall
From: [e-mail] (The Technicolour Throw-up)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Gravity Propulsion ??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 09:18:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Computer Science,University of Canterbury,New Zealand
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Nntp-Posting-Host: hihi.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Leonard Spani) writes:

> - one method of propulsion was to focus the gravity waves at a distant
>   point in space and "pull" that point towards the ship together by
>   bending space. When the gravity was turned off, space would "snap" back
>   into position and the ship would be in the new position. A new position
>   that may be very, very far from the original position.
> - Lazar claimed that ships using this drive mechanism could travel *much*
>   faster than the speed of light. (Although technically they wouldn't
>   actually *travel* from A to B, they would instantaneously "snap" from A
>   to B and their effective speed (distance/time) would be many times the
>   speed of light.)

There is a slight detail which Lazar seems to have overlooked - gravity
waves travel at the speed of light.  You may very well be able to "snap"
from A to B near instantaneously after having "pulled" B towards A but the
gravity waves travelling from A to B in order to set up this "space warp"
will only travel at the speed of light and hence you spend a lot of time
waiting around for the gravity waves to get to B.  If B is 1 light year away
then I am going to have to wait 1 year before the "warp" is even set up.
Result: no faster than light travel by this method.

--
Just my two rubber ningis worth.
Name: Michael Chisnall        email: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!markh
From: [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 09:49:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) writes:
>        All I want is proof. Why should I expend my time and energy before I
>get a good reason to do so? Your friend claimed to be in contact with higher
>intelligences-- before I make _any_ commitments, I'd like to see some proof
>that your friend is genuine. (Either he's genuine, or deranged.)
>        The problem may or may not be solvable. All I want is either a
>solution, or a lagically supported reason why it's not solvable. Until I get
>that, the 'Plieaidian transcripts' are about as useful as line noise.
>
>        So, whaddya say? Why don't you do the autotyping and convince me, if
>it's so simple? One good logical proof. (And saying "It's notsolable because
>our logic/philosophy/science/minds are too limited" is a cop-out.
>So there.)

I don't you think you realise what you're saying here.

You made an unreasonable demand made not even of any hard science.  If you
believe otherwise, then provide a consistency proof of Maxwell's Equations.

In case you're not informed, it's still an open problem.  And I'm not referring
to absolute consistency a la Goedel either, but simply consistency based on
set theory.

And the point is that this in no way detracts from Maxwell's Theory's status
as being a perfectly acceptable (as far as it is *Physically* consistent ...
another issue in itself).

Therefore, logical proof is not an acceptable criterion for acceptance of a
theory.  This is not an opinion, but simply a fact: what actually is.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!markh
From: [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 09:57:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>There is a reptilian portion of our brain stem (primal brain).

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>NNNNnnnnnooooo.....  I thought we were mammals.  Or does being a "reptile"
>imply something besides being cold-blooded and laying eggs?

The layering in our brain reflects our evolutionary descent, and is one of
many clues relating to our origin.

I hate to tell you, but reptiles are your cousins about a million or so
times removed.  You're related to a lizard.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!milton!phylo.genetics.washington.edu!mkkuhner
From: [e-mail] (Mary K. Kuhner)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 14:11:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mary K. Kuhner)
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It's not at all clear to me that it matters whether Kuthumi or the
Pleiadians are extraterrestrial entities or projections of their
channelers' subconscious (or something else).  They offer moral and
spiritual advice--why not judge them on that?  If it's good advice, it's
good advice regardless of origin, and if it isn't--well, I suppose alien
intelligences can be badly mistaken, ignorant or malicious just as well
as we can.

I have not read very many of the transcripts, but Kuthumi's insistence
on "Do not doubt, do not question, skepticism is evil" strikes me as a
very bad thing; and the tone of condescension I hear in the Pleiadian
transcripts also bothers me.  Why spend so much time denegrating human
accomplishments?  How does this square with the advice to take pride in
ourselves?

I would be very interested in hearing from people who did find useful
insights in this material; I'm open to reconsidering it, if shown a
reason.

Mary Kuhner [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!2fpfshelf
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GREYS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 18:07:09 GMT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services
Lines: 3

This area is something that has always interested me, but I have not
had time to investigate on my own. Would someone tell me what a GREY is
as I have not encountered this term in my limited study. Thanks.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!pashdown
From: [e-mail] (Pete Ashdown)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Previous Lives
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 17:59:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, Utah
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[e-mail] (Sildem Gandy) writes:

>Here's another possible tidbit.  I am very certain that in my previous
>life in the twenties my name was Henry George Witherspoon the third, my
>father went by Hank, I went by George, I drove a yellow Stutz Bearcat, I
>lived in the New England area (I had a very New England teeth gritting
>accent!). I had an accident where I ran into a crowd of people with the
>Stutz, I think in about 1926 or so. I died in '27.

Yet another tidbit to munch on.  I'm very certain that in a previous life, my
name was Jamm Morrisey or something like that.  People usually called me
"Lizard King" or "Mofo Fallin".  I drove nothing, but liked to wear leather
pants.  I also liked whiskey and lots of women.  I had an accident where I
exposed myself to a crowd of people while using the whiskey.  I died in the
early '70s.

Of course I was born before that time, but I seem to remember passing a dead
drug addict in the bathtub in my early years while my mother was a maid in
Paris.  I'm fairly certain that his spirit passed from him to me.

Can anyone back this up with historical fact?
--
TELEVISON!  Drug of our nation.  Breeder of ignorance and feeder of radiation.

DISCLAIMER: My writings have NOTHING to do with my employer.  Keep it that way.
Pete Ashdown  [e-mail]  ...uunet!javelin.sim.es.com!pashdown
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!pashdown
From: [e-mail] (Pete Ashdown)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 18:15:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Carl J Lydick) writes:

>what immediate practical value was there from the Apollo/Soyuz mission?  What
>immediate practical value can we expect from the joint Mars mission?  We've got
>(or had, 20 years ago, anyway) the technology necessary to do it, so it looks
>unlikely to me that we'll get any major R&D benefits from it.

Why is there a need to bring everything back in a ziplock baggie with loads of
technical data?  I believe that the Mars trip would be worth more for its
exploration value than anything else.  Do you read National Geographic?

Of course, the money is probably better spent on fixing THIS screwed-up planet,
but we all know that there isn't a Greenhouse effect, right George?
--
TELEVISON!  Drug of our nation.  Breeder of ignorance and feeder of radiation.

DISCLAIMER: My writings have NOTHING to do with my employer.  Keep it that way.
Pete Ashdown  [e-mail]  ...uunet!javelin.sim.es.com!pashdown
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!emory!athena.cs.uga.edu!bking
From: [e-mail] (Barrington King)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Previous Lives
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 18:50:29 GMT
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Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
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After considerable study, I have discovered that Cleopatra has been
reincarnated into the twentieth century over seventeen times.  It must
really be her period.
--
         "If you find the Buddha in your         [] -WoMbat
          directory file, remove him..."         [] [e-mail]
                        -Grinning Bartok         []      @aisun1.ai.uga.edu
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU!skywalker
From: [e-mail] (Timothy B. Reynolds)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: "Childhood's End"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 19:52:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
 >Has anyone read the science fiction book "Childhood's End" by A. C. Clarke, and
 >if so, what do you think about it? Also, does anyone know why it was originally
 >going to be made into a movie but that for some reason it was cancelled?

Yes, it is one of my favorites. The rumors still persist that a movie
is being made. If a movie is made it will have to be done very well
with good Special-FX or they will ruin it....have you read Lucifers
Hammer ??

Tim
--
Disclaimer: My opinions are my own, not HHMI's or Baylor College of Medicine
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And we stand and watch the gods and idols fall, as the blameless ones go
 blindfold to the wall"                                  Robin Trower....
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq
From: [e-mail] (Kevin D. Quitt)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 18:16:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Sildem Gandy) writes:
>  His daughter had no possibility of knowing this very
>obscure bit of history.

    Why is this phrase so popular?  Why don't people know that this kind
of statement is false on the face of it?


--
 _
Kevin D. Quitt              srhqla!venus!kdq     [e-mail]
3D systems, inc.            26081 Avenue Hall    Valencia, CA 91355
VOICE [phone] x430   FAX [phone]

                96.37% of all statistics are made up.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!drwho
From: [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 19:56:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>There is a reptilian portion of our brain stem (primal brain).
>
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>>NNNNnnnnnooooo.....  I thought we were mammals.  Or does being a "reptile"
>>imply something besides being cold-blooded and laying eggs?
>
>The layering in our brain reflects our evolutionary descent, and is one of
>many clues relating to our origin.
>
>I hate to tell you, but reptiles are your cousins about a million or so
>times removed.  You're related to a lizard.

Maybe I AM wrong about the accepted theories of evolution, (and
I wouldn't be surprised if I was) but I thought that all life evolved from the
sea.  And after air-breathers developed, reptiles and mammals evolved.  The
common ancestor of reptiles and mammals could not be considered either (that's
the bit I'm not sure of... am I right or wrong?) and therefore we are not
*descended* from reptiles.  And if there are no reptiles in our ancestry, there
cannot possibly be anything reptilian about us.

My point is, there was a split somewhere, and the first reptile appeared
somewhere along one branch -- eventually.  and the first mammal appeared
somewhere along the other branch -- eventually.  We are derscended from
something that came BEFORE reptiles.  Therefore they are not ancestors.

--E.V.L. ([e-mail])        # "It'll really cost the net hundreds, if
Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely    # not thousands, of dollars to post this?
devastatingly true, except the bits # COOL!!"
that are lies."  --Douglas Adams    #              --Me
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Pregnant Russian Spacewomen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 21:47:53 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 10

Has any one heard anything about these Russian women that
all came back pregnant after a space flight?  The article
was in some type of paper (like the Inquirer)---which I
don't put much stock in.

Is there any legitimate documentation on this story, does
any one know?
Thanks.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!harry!aquinas
From: [e-mail] (Christopher M. Dicely)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.:
Message-ID: <aquinas.686612159@harry>
Date: 4 Oct 91 21:35:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Greg Pivarnik) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>|> >
>|> >      MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES
>|> >                of the
>|> >          Parapsychology Society Subcommittee
>|> >            United Nations
>|> >              New York, New York
>|> >               October 15, 1990
>|>
>|> I didn't know the U.N. had a Parapsychology Society.  What does it do?
>|>
>|> >Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma
>|> >Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich.
>|> >All rights reserved...(other copyright related stuff omitted).
>|>
>|> What is Norma Milanovich a doctor of, and why does she place such
>|> restrictions on a message which she claims she is not the author of?

Thats not legal you know.  Hmm... Lets start a Spirit Rights Movement...



>Jim, this article intrigued me, it also prompted me to investigate its validity.
>The question of copyright also was approached,here are my findings:
>I called the United Nations to find out if a"Parapsychology Society Subcommittee"
>actually existed. The U.N. says that there is no subcommittee by that name registered.
>Althought they clearly stated that it was possible a non-governmental group derived off
>of one of their subcommittes or a group using one of their conference areas. Which the U.N.
>says, will not publish any transcripts which are collected within.
>Not satisfied I called the Alpha Connection in Aluquerque,NM. They are a training
>organization( teach the government and other companies ...how to cooperated) it was
>founded by Dr. Norma Milanovich. The copyright is impossed so that the message can not
>be taken out of context. This is a common practice, you'll find a similar copyright on the Bible

You will also find that the copyright on the Bible is only valid covering the
parts of the Bible that are the ORIGINAL WORK of the copyright holder or their
employees.  I'm not sure about whether a new translation is copyrightable, but
beyond that the format, layout, any indexes, glossaries, maps, or included
historical references are covered by the copyright.  Copyright on a work that is
entirely not the work of the holder seems to be questionable, although any
formatting and layout might be coverable.

-Chris Dicely
 "I am, therefore I am"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!medici!jbm
From: [e-mail] (Jacques Guy)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Oct 91 00:03:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
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>Maybe I AM wrong about the accepted theories of evolution, (and
>I wouldn't be surprised if I was) but I thought that all life evolved from the
>sea.  And after air-breathers developed, reptiles and mammals evolved.  The
>common ancestor of reptiles and mammals could not be considered either (that's
>the bit I'm not sure of... am I right or wrong?) and therefore we are not
>*descended* from reptiles.  And if there are no reptiles in our ancestry, there
>cannot possibly be anything reptilian about us.

No-one said we were descended from reptiles (except creationists trying to
argue ab absurdo). I have nephews and nieces (courtesy of my cousins and siblings).
And I am not -- repeat NOT -- descended from them (would you believe?)
And if there are no Anita's and Jean-Luc's et al. in my ancestry, there cannot
possibly be anything Anita-like and Jean-Luc-like about me. Uh? Come again?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Photographic Evidence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 15:46:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>analysis confirm them as real? Also, does this newsgroup represent a microcosm
>of the current state of UFOlogy? Channeling? Pleides? I seem to have missed
>some big changes.

The newsgroup represents whatever the users want it to represent.

You're right in that there's a very vocal group of people who believe in
spiritual beings from the Pleiades.  There's a second very vocal group who
believe in small grey aliens from Zeta Reticuli who have a treaty with the
U.S. government and secret bases scattered throughout the southwest.  Then
there's a third group who don't know what the hell is going on, but get
quite a bit of entertainment from those who think they do.

--
  *  From the disk of:    | NEW CONNECTION:        | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms    | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    | [e-mail]|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    | [e-mail]    | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  The Pleiadian Transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Oct 91 15:33:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni) writes:
>
>Marconi shut off all the electric lights in Milan with a pocket sized device.
>This included battery powered devices. This happened long ago. Now, no one
>can be sure Marconi actually did it himself. One day he said something
>like, "On October 22 at 7:00 PM Im going to turn off all electricity in
>Milan." And at that time, everything stopped working. So, was Marconi
>in touch with people from other galaxies or dimensions?

Probably not, but what exactly did Marconi do?    This is the first time I've
heard that story.

--
  *  From the disk of:    | NEW CONNECTION:        | I'm in a groove now
  Jim Shaffer, Jr.    | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms    | -- or is it a rut?
  37 Brook Street    | [e-mail]|
  Montgomery, PA 17752    | [e-mail]    | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sco!score!steveha
From: [e-mail] (Steve Harris)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Cosmic Archeology (was Hoagland's Face on Mars)
Keywords: Mars Mitochodrial DNA tetrahedral pyramid
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Date: 4 Oct 91 20:10:55 GMT
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A possible Mitochondrial DNA theory on the origin of mankind:
    Humans appeared spontaneously on the Earth 220,000 years ago due
    to a genetic experiment by aliens (Martians perhaps) to preserve
    their race.  As there is no reason to believe that the biological
    structure of these aliens could support their existence in the
    Earth's environment, it may have been necessary to "splice" or
    "engineer" already existing animal genes on the earth to produce
    a favorable result.


As a side(main?) note, but related to the topic...it seems that no matter how
skeptical I have become at times, this topic always comes back to haunt
me, never being debunked completely, I am unable to put it to rest.

However, I have seen everyone from theological historians, to mathematicians,
to archaeologists analyze the geometry of the pyramids.  There are definitely
an overwhelming number of "self-referencing" dimensions.  I am interested in
some bibliographies on this topic.  Also I have seen these measurements as
they are related to ?Stonehenge? or similar, so-called, "druidic" circles.

Do these analyses of the Great Pyramid's geometries "map" to the analyses
of the so-called "archeological findings" on Mars?  Or were the analyses of
Mars simply based on these geometries.

I should say that it is clear to me that the original post on Hoagland's
presentations at the Whole Earth was best understood in the context of
other findings.



Some points to consider:

    Are there any clearly defined and plausible theories as to how
    the Eqyptian's could have built the Great Pyramid?  I have seen
    exactly 0.

    What does the origin of life have to do with Homo Sapiens?  Clearly
    we are highly evolved, far from the earliest forms of life on Earth.
    Couldn't mankind just be "edited" primates?  I have seen no
    scientific explanation for the emergence of mankind.  Just history.

    What exactly were the methods for resolving the images on Mars?
    I have seen NASA do the same to the pictures near Neptune and
    Uranus, is it the same method or siginificantly different?

    Assuming it was properly resolved (and not just manipulated), do the
    mathematical analyses actually reference the position of the object
    on the planet (and the planet being a sphere, based on what frame of
    reference)?

    What is this talk of Edward Kennedy and Mickey Mouse?  Maybe the
    Martians went forward in time and found two figures which best
    reflected our identity...knowing that someday it would be Americans
    that made the breakthrough in discovery?!?!  ;-)

    Why, if these structures do exists, has their existence not become
    scientific knowledge?  Fear and speculation I suspect, provided their
    existence is real.

    Doesn't this just seem like a natural archaeological step in
    determining the history of intelligent life in such a slow-moving
    Cosmos?  If we are all just neighbors, why couldn't we also be
    relatives?  If we can't analyze the mathematics, then we aren't
    intelligent.  It means about as much as T.V. to a household pet.



Just a few thoughts and questions I have...I do not disbelieve any of it
because (being a scientist) I have seen nothing to disprove the theories.
I am skeptical...but no more so than about the evening news...maybe even
less, considering the source.

--Steve Harris

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